0:05
5 seconds
The Army Air Forces has announced that a flying disc [music] has been found and is now in the possession of the army.
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11 seconds
However, there have been a certain [music] percentage of this volume of reports that have been made by credible
0:19
19 seconds
observers of relatively incredible things.
0:24
24 seconds
Uh there is very compelling evidence that [music] we uh we may not be alone.
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29 seconds
Whatever that means. There's a whole fleet of them. Look on the NSA. They [music] do.
0:38
38 seconds
American public and [music] global public finally understands UFOs are real. Non-human exotic [music] origin
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45 seconds
vehicles that have either landed or crashed.
0:49
49 seconds
[music]
0:53
53 seconds
All right, welcome back everyone. And Richard, it is an honor to have you back on the show. How's things?
0:58
58 seconds
Hi Vinnie. Great. Pleasure to be here with you. I always enjoy it and uh they're good. I'm happy to be here.
1:05
1 minute, 5 seconds
Excellent. Excellent. Well, Richard, you know, obviously we are going to jump into um talking about your second volume of your USO series during the interview,
1:13
1 minute, 13 seconds
but I wanted to start off and I really feel quite passionate about looking back over the years that the historical
1:20
1 minute, 20 seconds
record and research and and how the things may [clears throat] have changed quite a bit leading right up into modern times. So, I guess my first question,
1:29
1 minute, 29 seconds
what do you kind of remember about the UFO landscape back in like the 1990s compared to what we're seeing today?
Chapter 2: Early research challenges
1:35
1 minute, 35 seconds
Very, very different. [laughter] Very unrecognizably different. Wow. Okay.
1:40
1 minute, 40 seconds
Honestly, I started my first year where I I think that I was like obsessed with UFOs was around 1993
1:50
1 minute, 50 seconds
going into 94 around that time. So, more than 30 years ago.
1:55
1 minute, 55 seconds
And of course this is in the very early days of what was the internet before the web. It was just uh bulletin boards back
2:03
2 minutes, 3 seconds
then which I had been familiar with and uh it was a strange thing like I almost
2:11
2 minutes, 11 seconds
the fact that I became interested at all but you know I I've said many times it was stumbling at a a bookstore and seeing uh Timothy Good's very classic
2:19
2 minutes, 19 seconds
work above top secret the worldwide UFO coverup just staring at me and I remember becoming interested but back in
2:26
2 minutes, 26 seconds
those days so I bought I bought Tim's book and uh became obsessed is the right word. And
2:35
2 minutes, 35 seconds
for me, you know, I had uh I was starting at ground zero for knowledge of the subject. I really didn't know anything worth knowing. I was studying
2:43
2 minutes, 43 seconds
American Cold War history. So, the 1940s and 1950s were of interest to me. And obviously, I knew enough that that was important for the UFO subject as well.
2:54
2 minutes, 54 seconds
And um as I've said many times, I just wanted to know, is this actually part of our history? is is something that was um
3:02
3 minutes, 2 seconds
even if it was seen if it became later seen as a mistake, why were there no professional historians who were writing about this? It's quite interesting
3:10
3 minutes, 10 seconds
and yet it's absent from all academic treatments of American history or world history for that matter. So that's where I started and uh what I learned is that
3:20
3 minutes, 20 seconds
the bibliography was almost impossible to find like where were the books and I I finally was able to learn that there
3:28
3 minutes, 28 seconds
were some books on this that had been written over the past and I tried finding them and I used things like inter library loan and uh a a used
3:37
3 minutes, 37 seconds
bookstore. I became very good friends with one particular used bookstore dealer who was into UFOs. His name was Chris Rozie. Hope he's still around. Uh
3:46
3 minutes, 46 seconds
he was great and he knew what I was up for and he knew how to find a lot of very difficult books for me
3:54
3 minutes, 54 seconds
and uh so uh I didn't really have any interaction with the UFO community
4:00
4 minutes
during the 1990s. I I was completely off on my own. Uh I was learning about them.
4:08
4 minutes, 8 seconds
They didn't know about [laughter] me.
4:10
4 minutes, 10 seconds
So, but my um my very strong sense of the of the 1990s and then when I
4:17
4 minutes, 17 seconds
entered the field uh as a known person around 2001, yeah, it was very different. So, um
4:25
4 minutes, 25 seconds
everything was analog. Even the fact when I wrote my first book, the fact that I had used internet at all in my research was seen as a mark against me.
4:36
4 minutes, 36 seconds
uh one reviewer, Michael Swords, very well-known uh scholar in the field, actually wrote a review of my first book
4:42
4 minutes, 42 seconds
and and thought it was a real problem that I had used part the internet for part of my research.
4:49
4 minutes, 49 seconds
So, so that just shows you like how how uh differently people thought about this.
4:57
4 minutes, 57 seconds
uh getting information was a so much more difficult getting access to like all the old um journals you know from
5:06
5 minutes, 6 seconds
NIKAP and APRO the important organizations back then they I was not able to find any of those um back in the
5:12
5 minutes, 12 seconds
1990s it were very very difficult uh and you know so many other things like books
5:19
5 minutes, 19 seconds
I I was lucky to get access to the the books from the 1950s and60s that I did get and I did finally had access to many
5:27
5 minutes, 27 seconds
of them through Chris uh he was able to find them because a lot of the libraries didn't even have most of these things.
5:33
5 minutes, 33 seconds
So that was from a research point of view for a new guy like myself jumping in. I think that was the biggest thing.
5:41
5 minutes, 41 seconds
It was just actually getting information at all. You I really had to work for it.
5:47
5 minutes, 47 seconds
So whereas now it's it's totally different situation. Of course, in terms of the research that this is something
5:56
5 minutes, 56 seconds
that I've looked at quite a lot and and and I've talked now to a lot of the old-timers who were doing active research in the 90s and the 80s and the
6:03
6 minutes, 3 seconds
70s and what you can see is a it was a much smaller community.
6:11
6 minutes, 11 seconds
Uh had a little bit of an old boys network to it. There were some some women involved. Linda Molton How was there um for example and
6:20
6 minutes, 20 seconds
uh there were a few others who were very significant but mostly it was mostly men which not quite to the same degree now but
6:29
6 minutes, 29 seconds
it's still I think mostly dominated by men today isn't it but um but everyone knew each other very very well and they
6:37
6 minutes, 37 seconds
had their arguments but you could see they all kind of talked the same language and like you read the old uh
6:44
6 minutes, 44 seconds
muon journals from the 70s and the 80s and uh it was a situation where the leading
6:51
6 minutes, 51 seconds
researchers were writing articles in that journal and uh there was a certain very like
6:59
6 minutes, 59 seconds
high level of what I would call sobriety you know to the tone of what was being written there. I mean nothing was sensationalistic.
7:08
7 minutes, 8 seconds
Uh no one was trying to get clicks because they knew that was never going to happen. They knew like on a good a good month the muon journal might publish uh 2,000 copies like that.
7:20
7 minutes, 20 seconds
Oh wow. That was it.
7:22
7 minutes, 22 seconds
Uh typically during most of those years we made 1500 copies and it wasn't much different with the APR bulletin or uh
7:29
7 minutes, 29 seconds
the NICAP investigator. I don't know what they're top topped out at but couple of thousand at best. So you're talking very very limited distribution.
7:39
7 minutes, 39 seconds
So it was a it was a closed-knit group and yeah they had their debates but they all they all knew each other.
7:46
7 minutes, 46 seconds
They all spoke the same language as it were and um you know we saw that really changing in the 21st century. It didn't
Chapter 3: Internet and ufology
7:55
7 minutes, 55 seconds
change all at once. I think it changed in certain leaps. The first big change uh I think you have to say was when the
8:02
8 minutes, 2 seconds
internet first made its mark in the late 80s. uh that's when you start getting the the major like conspiracy theories
8:09
8 minutes, 9 seconds
if we can say that uh people like John Lear and uh Bill Cooper hit the scene they started writing articles in 1987
8:17
8 minutes, 17 seconds
888 when on those bulletin boards you didn't have editorial policies anyone with a keyboard and an internet connection you a modem could put their
8:26
8 minutes, 26 seconds
information out there and it it was I think ultimately it was healthy but it also did create a lot of a lot of
8:33
8 minutes, 33 seconds
confusion and some people who just were you don't really know how serious a lot of them were and then there were other
8:40
8 minutes, 40 seconds
people who seemed very serious. So it it kind of exploded eupfology in the late ' 80s. Uh Lear comes out and he start
8:48
8 minutes, 48 seconds
talking about uh a human alien deal that was made that was never discussed before that that was completely out there. Uh
8:56
8 minutes, 56 seconds
Cooper starts talking um about uh how he knew that the Kennedy
9:04
9 minutes, 4 seconds
assassination was done by the driver of the limo, which is not true, not supported by any evidence at all. And um
9:13
9 minutes, 13 seconds
so so I think it just opened things up to a degree that no one none of the old guard was prepared for.
9:23
9 minutes, 23 seconds
And that's when we started getting the MJ12 documents which came out around that time and the internet amplified that whole controversy. So you could
9:31
9 minutes, 31 seconds
start seeing eupfology the old eupfology starting to unravel during the 1990s.
9:38
9 minutes, 38 seconds
Uh I I think that's fair to say. And then, you know, once we start getting web like really good web browsers and
9:44
9 minutes, 44 seconds
and then YouTube uh really making its self [snorts] in the early 2000s,
9:52
9 minutes, 52 seconds
uh we really start seeing a whole new ball game alto together. And then with really good websites that were able to have um you know, archives, greater and
10:02
10 minutes, 2 seconds
greater levels of information that could be accessible, uh it really did open up UFO research, I think, in a in a very positive way. But at the same time, of
10:10
10 minutes, 10 seconds
course, uh everything's a double-edged sword. So, you have more people, you have more more intelligent people in there doing their work, and you also
10:19
10 minutes, 19 seconds
have people who just want to hang along for the ride and uh say, "Look at me. Look at me." So, there's all of that. And that's what we have to this day.
10:27
10 minutes, 27 seconds
That that's our situation.
10:29
10 minutes, 29 seconds
So, we've got a lot of good new voices and some that, you know, people might have problems with.
10:35
10 minutes, 35 seconds
Yeah. I mean when we see that morphology from how it changed from let's say the late [clears throat] 80s through to now was there a similar situation
10:44
10 minutes, 44 seconds
go from the 40s through to the 60s when it came to that sort of work that's pretty good well I'm only be able
10:53
10 minutes, 53 seconds
to answer you through my own research since I wasn't sure of 62 so I wasn't insinuating anything [laughter]
11:01
11 minutes, 1 second
no I know that uh I think in the in the 40s First of all, you hardly had a community that was really that could be
11:09
11 minutes, 9 seconds
called such. Uh, it took a while. You know, in the early 1950s, for example, Coral and Jim Laorenzan started
11:18
11 minutes, 18 seconds
publishing the Approbolton in their kitchen up in Wisconsin.
11:23
11 minutes, 23 seconds
And uh, if you look at the first few issues of it, it's purely on a typewriter. It's like
11:29
11 minutes, 29 seconds
uh and they they were really quite remarkable because on a a total shoestring budget they were
11:38
11 minutes, 38 seconds
able to by the by the early 60s I think even in the 50s actually they had
11:45
11 minutes, 45 seconds
international correspondents that they worked with uh in n I think in 1954 I was just reooking re reviewing some of
11:53
11 minutes, 53 seconds
the approletans from that year and they had people in Venezuelan reporting to them on sightings of alien
12:00
12 minutes
beings that year like in 1954. Really a [laughter] kind of an amazing thing.
12:07
12 minutes, 7 seconds
Uh so you you see the beginnings of a kind of networking that was going on.
12:13
12 minutes, 13 seconds
There were a number of starts and stopped organizations.
12:16
12 minutes, 16 seconds
Uh there was one called CIS, civilian CSI, civilian saucer investigators for about a year or two. They were pretty
12:24
12 minutes, 24 seconds
good. And there were some others. So you and then you get NIKAP starting in the late 50s which was um really Kho took
12:33
12 minutes, 33 seconds
that over very early on and and they kind of made some noise during the 1960s.
12:40
12 minutes, 40 seconds
Um, I think what you really saw in uh in the
12:45
12 minutes, 45 seconds
50s and 60s was this uh situation where some of the
12:54
12 minutes, 54 seconds
really the biggest uh organizations, NIKAP and APRO were
13:02
13 minutes, 2 seconds
they were they were basically it if you were in the United States. They were basically they were the game and
13:09
13 minutes, 9 seconds
uh and their attitude was we're patriots. We believe in America and the American way, but we believe
13:17
13 minutes, 17 seconds
that the American government's policy on secrecy is misguided.
13:22
13 minutes, 22 seconds
They were not saying things like they're evil. These are awful people that should be arrested. They were not doing anything like that. They were really
13:30
13 minutes, 30 seconds
trying to, I think, work with the United States government to the extent that they could. they believed in the system trying to work with Congress to get
13:37
13 minutes, 37 seconds
hearings and this type of thing. Uh they were not able to do that and um I think
13:44
13 minutes, 44 seconds
the big change that you see had to do uh with the 1970s. I think uh in a lot of ways that was when uh Richard Nixon had
Chapter 4: Culture and research
13:52
13 minutes, 52 seconds
to resign from the presidency because of Watergate. It was an enormous scandal at the time and one result of that was a strengthening of the Freedom of
14:01
14 minutes, 1 second
Information Act so that uh citizens could now petition the US government for
14:09
14 minutes, 9 seconds
public records on all types of things. I think uh previously FOYA was in instituted in the in 1966 but uh from
14:17
14 minutes, 17 seconds
what I think I understand it was mostly relevant for your personal data right but in in ' 74 it was strengthened to
14:26
14 minutes, 26 seconds
make it much more publicly uh accessible and no [snorts] one expected this but suddenly all these people were asking
14:34
14 minutes, 34 seconds
UFO questions out of the US government and I think that combined with Watergate like the the nation was looking more at
14:42
14 minutes, 42 seconds
conspiracies at this point. Uh at the same time, researchers were starting to look into the whole UFO crash retrieval
14:51
14 minutes, 51 seconds
phenomenon. All of this happened in the mid to late '7s. So there was a transformation in I'm really speaking here of America, but of the United
14:59
14 minutes, 59 seconds
States culture to have a much more oppositional attitude toward their government than previously. What's
15:07
15 minutes, 7 seconds
interesting is um when you study the UFO research culture of the 1970s, which I I've done this, and you really
15:16
15 minutes, 16 seconds
find that they were politically very conservative back in the 70s, like really quite conservative. So that they
15:24
15 minutes, 24 seconds
were it took a while for these researchers to start talking about conspiracies
15:31
15 minutes, 31 seconds
even after they started getting these documents released from the government that proved that the US government was lying when they said they were not
15:39
15 minutes, 39 seconds
interested in this subject because here's documents showing this military interception attempt and that one and this violation of sensitive airspace by
15:47
15 minutes, 47 seconds
objects that look like flying saucers like you can just read it in black and white. So they knew the government was lying to them, but they most of these
15:54
15 minutes, 54 seconds
researchers in the 70s and into the 80s, they were really willing to cut the US government a lot of slack compared with today.
16:02
16 minutes, 2 seconds
Compared to today. Wow. Yeah.
16:04
16 minutes, 4 seconds
Do you would you say the researchers maybe in the 50s and 60s, were they asking the right questions or simply learning how to fundamentally approach
16:12
16 minutes, 12 seconds
the phenomena and how research should be done?
16:17
16 minutes, 17 seconds
A little bit of both. I think it's it's an evolution.
16:21
16 minutes, 21 seconds
uh it would be unfair really to expect researchers in the 1950s to to be asking the kinds of questions that we ask today. It would just not be a fair thing
16:30
16 minutes, 30 seconds
because uh this was a new phenomenon for them.
16:33
16 minutes, 33 seconds
They were living in a completely different world with totally different um a totally different understanding of the society that they lived in. And um
16:43
16 minutes, 43 seconds
you know back in the 50s there was a uh one of my favorite uh academic books from the 1950s was by a man named Cightight Mills called the power elite.
16:53
16 minutes, 53 seconds
He wrote it in 1956 and that was a revolutionary study that looked at American society not as the world's greatest democracy. [laughter] He is
17:02
17 minutes, 2 seconds
looking at it from the point of view of the powerful institutions that actually ran the society. That was a revolutionary thing. So you really
17:10
17 minutes, 10 seconds
couldn't find a lot of people back in the 50s who who really were taking what we today would consider a sophisticated
17:18
17 minutes, 18 seconds
breakdown of American power and that would include the UFO coverup. I just don't think they were willing to do it.
17:24
17 minutes, 24 seconds
It was too too much of an ask. So guys like Donald Kho, he was a retired Marine Corps major. He was a total patriot. But
17:31
17 minutes, 31 seconds
yet he's finding that the Air Force is lying to the public about you about flying saucers. True. But he still when
17:38
17 minutes, 38 seconds
he's working and leading NIKAP, he's working with all of these ex-military guys and all of these exintel guys. They were all patriots and they all were
17:46
17 minutes, 46 seconds
believing the government's policy of of secrecy is mistaken.
17:52
17 minutes, 52 seconds
Not criminal, not evil or any of the adjectives we might use today, but just
17:58
17 minutes, 58 seconds
mistaken. It's misguided. So I, you know, was that right of them to think that or not?
18:06
18 minutes, 6 seconds
I just think it was natural for them to think that. And um it takes time. I think it takes time for generations to
18:13
18 minutes, 13 seconds
work through really profound ideas like something like nonhuman intelligence arriving here. That's that's that's a
18:22
18 minutes, 22 seconds
big big transformation in one's awareness and consciousness. So it doesn't surprise me. You know, you look at all the um early movies that depict
18:32
18 minutes, 32 seconds
this, you know, The Day the Earth Stood Still and um you know, the the the mock-ups and the costumes look really
18:39
18 minutes, 39 seconds
goofy by our standards, but they were working with the technology that they had and with the understanding that they had at the time.
18:45
18 minutes, 45 seconds
So, I think I think they did a good job in um in assessing
18:53
18 minutes, 53 seconds
what was happening. It took it took researchers a long time before they were coming around to the idea of of like crash retrievals.
19:02
19 minutes, 2 seconds
Yeah.
19:03
19 minutes, 3 seconds
Or alien or even abductions. And but again, that should not be surprising.
19:09
19 minutes, 9 seconds
This is a subject that you know, you spend enough time with it, it's like walking into the into the ocean. So you start out, you're in the
19:17
19 minutes, 17 seconds
shallows, but you keep going and that water gets deep. Then eventually you fall down the shelf. Uh that's the shelf's always been there, but it takes
19:25
19 minutes, 25 seconds
time to get to it. So I think um it's really shouldn't surprise us that it's taken this much time. I have a feeling
19:33
19 minutes, 33 seconds
that u over the next generation or more, we'll we'll probably be finding new things that will surprise us about the nature of this intelligence.
19:43
19 minutes, 43 seconds
Yeah, I I believe so too. I hope so as well. Well, you know, we mentioned the 70s and even the 80s, but as we move
Chapter 5: Expansion of phenomena
19:51
19 minutes, 51 seconds
into those decades, we hear more about things like abductions and mutilations, crop circles, and a whole range of kind
19:58
19 minutes, 58 seconds
of new areas. Do you think that was seen as more an expansion of UFO research, or do you think sometimes it kind of made the subject more difficult to take seriously?
20:09
20 minutes, 9 seconds
Well, there's a natural overlap that's there with abductions, that's not difficult to see. You think of the Betty
20:16
20 minutes, 16 seconds
and Barney Hill case from 1961. They saw a UFO explicitly and remembered an alien
20:24
20 minutes, 24 seconds
abduction experience. So they're directly connected. And all of the earliest accounts, there's one from Brazil from a few years earlier, the Vas
20:31
20 minutes, 31 seconds
Boaz case, where it's the same thing. He sees a UFO and he alleged that he had been taken aboard. Uh and there were other cases in the 1960s where you get
20:40
20 minutes, 40 seconds
the same connection. So with that, I think abduction was a very logical thing because think about it like if you're going to believe
20:49
20 minutes, 49 seconds
that these flying saucers are not from around here, then you might
20:56
20 minutes, 56 seconds
assume there's other types of beings or people that are inside it and there's got to be something going on in there.
21:02
21 minutes, 2 seconds
So it it really wouldn't be an impossible thing to think, well, maybe they would they would take someone to examine them. crop circles,
21:11
21 minutes, 11 seconds
uh, you know, they're a little different. There have been, uh, videos and and allegations of people saying
21:19
21 minutes, 19 seconds
that they saw, you know, orbs and balls of light create these circles. I don't I don't know where the current status of that is, but I know they were debunked
21:27
21 minutes, 27 seconds
and then rebunked, and I'm not sure where we are.
21:30
21 minutes, 30 seconds
I I tend to believe it, but, you know, I'm just I don't really know. But it's not hard to see as well that you could
21:39
21 minutes, 39 seconds
imagine that's that's by a non-human intelligence. I know, you know, there's the claims that they've been done by circle makers. We know that there are circle makers, not just Bob and Doug,
21:48
21 minutes, 48 seconds
but actually sophisticated people who are artists at it and u and their work
21:54
21 minutes, 54 seconds
is actually quite beautiful, but there's a lot of them and and some of them turn up really really fast. And
22:02
22 minutes, 2 seconds
from what I I haven't looked into this in a little while, but I remember listening to some of the leading circle makers say uh that they actually felt some weird
22:12
22 minutes, 12 seconds
almost uh paranormal vibes when they when they did their circles. I don't know how sophisticated or how um how
22:19
22 minutes, 19 seconds
deep they explained all of that. I personally think that some of these uh formations
22:26
22 minutes, 26 seconds
are not readily explainable in terms of quick human uh some of them are done in the middle
22:32
22 minutes, 32 seconds
of the day and and no one no one saw them being done and they're im immense um some from as early as the 1980s and
22:41
22 minutes, 41 seconds
90s have just been incredible. So uh now where I do I I guess I would be
22:49
22 minutes, 49 seconds
careful is people are very very willing to ascribe these really wonderful positive meanings and messages to the circle makers.
23:00
23 minutes
And I have to admit, look, I'd rather if if the aliens are going to come in some form, maybe as the creators of crop circles might be the best way to go.
23:08
23 minutes, 8 seconds
they they're at least beautiful and they at least might have somewhat positive uh message if you want to interpret that way if that's what they are. Maybe that's what some of them are.
23:18
23 minutes, 18 seconds
Maybe maybe that's what they are. Yeah.
23:21
23 minutes, 21 seconds
I I mean I have I have my own whole theory about what I think these intelligences are and what I think they're doing. Maybe we can get into
23:30
23 minutes, 30 seconds
that. I I could imagine that uh you know if you if you're an
23:39
23 minutes, 39 seconds
intelligence that's vastly beyond uh homo sapiens you know cognitively and in terms of your ability to even
23:47
23 minutes, 47 seconds
understand or perceive space and time or your ability to understand the deep the depths of causality and your ability to
23:56
23 minutes, 56 seconds
uh understand a whole array of aspects of reality that we you and I just we're never going to be able to do. So then
24:03
24 minutes, 3 seconds
you it's like coming to earth and you're like don't step on the flowers. Like don't step on these people because there's only so much they can handle.
24:10
24 minutes, 10 seconds
But maybe we can just drop a little seed here and there. So let's let's make a nice little happy crop circle. Give them something to think about. Yeah, maybe.
24:18
24 minutes, 18 seconds
Uh it doesn't surprise me that they don't announce themselves openly to us.
24:24
24 minutes, 24 seconds
I I think that would actually be a probably a very disruptive pro probably a very counterproductive thing. Everyone
24:31
24 minutes, 31 seconds
wants everyone wants disclosure, including myself, but I don't really have an illusion that it's going to be this uh be all and end all. I don't think it's going to solve our problems.
24:41
24 minutes, 41 seconds
And I I don't think that having them appear to us is necessarily going to be
24:48
24 minutes, 48 seconds
all that positive for us or or what can they actually do?
24:54
24 minutes, 54 seconds
We have this idea that they can somehow save us from ourselves. I don't think so.
24:59
24 minutes, 59 seconds
No, I don't think they can.
Chapter 6: Disclosure movement
25:02
25 minutes, 2 seconds
I mean, speaking of disclosure, as we as we get into more more sort of recent times, we get to 2001 and Steven Greer's
25:11
25 minutes, 11 seconds
uh you know, seinal kind of disclosure gathering at the National Press Club. Do you see that as the real sort of beginning of the disclosure movement?
25:20
25 minutes, 20 seconds
Yeah, maybe. Um, well, right before that, he published his book, Disclosure, which I have on my shelf here. Good
25:28
25 minutes, 28 seconds
book. Uh, my favorite book by Steven Greer by far.
25:32
25 minutes, 32 seconds
uh mainly because it's just a an immense collection of his interviews that he did with these people, some of whom were on at the disclosure press conference in 01.
25:42
25 minutes, 42 seconds
Yeah, I think I think that's um a pretty good historical judgment that that press conference was a major turning point in the uh in the field.
25:54
25 minutes, 54 seconds
I'll put that alongside with the publication of my first book. [laughter] Absolutely.
25:59
25 minutes, 59 seconds
I'm actually [clears throat] kidding there, but I think I think Greer's uh press conference was was very significant. Absolutely. Yeah.
26:06
26 minutes, 6 seconds
I'll just But since I've mentioned my book, I mean, I wasn't really planning to, but I I published UFOs in the National Security State in 2000 as a
26:13
26 minutes, 13 seconds
self-published thing and then that made a bit of a splash and then in O2 it was published by a larger publisher. So my book came out around
26:22
26 minutes, 22 seconds
that time and I think um I do think that my entry along with a few other people at that time there's the late Terry
26:29
26 minutes, 29 seconds
Hansen who I miss to this day um and there were some of us who were like hitting the field at that time who I do
26:38
26 minutes, 38 seconds
think did approach eupfology from a more uh unabashedly conspiratorial cover up type of an
26:47
26 minutes, 47 seconds
angle. And and actually I do really think that that was um that was an important thing that needed to be done.
26:54
26 minutes, 54 seconds
Um not that there weren't people in the 90s who were pushing it, but there was not any kind of there was Tim Good. So
27:02
27 minutes, 2 seconds
he he has to be uh not discounted here, but I do think that Terry and myself and a few other people we we kind of added
27:10
27 minutes, 10 seconds
to the momentum that someone like Greer was doing with his disclosure event.
27:15
27 minutes, 15 seconds
Yes, I think so. So you start seeing this kind of coalescence of uh of different from different directions
27:22
27 minutes, 22 seconds
people making a coherent argument an extended argument that the United States government was leading a kind of international cover up.
27:31
27 minutes, 31 seconds
Yeah. I mean as we get then a few more years down the line and this is where I first discovered the subject around 09
27:38
27 minutes, 38 seconds
2010 and it is your [clears throat] work that I discover first. You're my gateway drug to this subject. Um [laughter] And
27:46
27 minutes, 46 seconds
I didn't know that disclosure movement was very much in play and the a lot of exopolitics talk at the time as well. Yep. Yep.
27:53
27 minutes, 53 seconds
And so I was I was in deep I was researching. I I was like you. I was a lone wolf for many years looking from a
28:00
28 minutes
distance but researching and it was exciting. I think we hit 2013. We had this mock congressional hearing which I
28:08
28 minutes, 8 seconds
think really lifted the subject for a while. But then it it did feel for me personally like it kind of plateaued again until of course 2017.
Chapter 7: The 2017 turning point
28:18
28 minutes, 18 seconds
That's right. Yeah.
28:19
28 minutes, 19 seconds
Uh how significant was that moment do you think overall if we were to look back at it now almost a decade later?
28:25
28 minutes, 25 seconds
Uh 2017 very very important and you know you mentioned the citizens hearing on disclosure. I was very active in that. I
28:33
28 minutes, 33 seconds
was I had a very big uh I gave many many presentations for that and uh I think second only to Steve Basset who who was the organizer of it.
28:43
28 minutes, 43 seconds
Sure.
28:43
28 minutes, 43 seconds
So I was quite a lot and I remember the Washington Post for example just ridiculed what we were trying to do. I mean they were vicious. Washington Post
28:52
28 minutes, 52 seconds
was always vicious on this subject always. And uh that was no exception. So 2013, you know, we've been doing this
28:59
28 minutes, 59 seconds
for a while and it was easy to feel like we're just spinning our wheels and nothing's happening. Yeah.
29:03
29 minutes, 3 seconds
And then you could see a couple of things changing in 2016 and 2017. 2016
29:12
29 minutes, 12 seconds
you had uh Hillary Clinton versus Donald Trump in the U presidential primaries and some people will remember Hillary's
29:20
29 minutes, 20 seconds
talking about UFO. She actually said UAP at one point. I think she was on the Jimmy Kimmel show and uh he throws her
29:28
29 minutes, 28 seconds
these softball questions about this subject and she's like, "Oh yeah, if we can get this released, I'll get what information I can." She was able to do that, I think, for uh
29:37
29 minutes, 37 seconds
for two reasons. One is that the subject was becoming noticeably a little less toxic. I I think because of the
29:44
29 minutes, 44 seconds
internet. I think people were realizing this sub and and also she had Podesta as her campaign manager who had a personal
29:52
29 minutes, 52 seconds
interest. But I think Podesta realized with sufficient media protection, which she had in abundance, she could get away
30:00
30 minutes
with talking about this subject and not get reamed by the media. And she did.
30:04
30 minutes, 4 seconds
And she got away with it. And I think it was um for me, I always saw it as a as a ploy to get some votes from the cool kids, you know, some of the people who
30:12
30 minutes, 12 seconds
were interested in UFOs. And maybe it worked. So um so you could see a bit of a loosening of the culture.
30:21
30 minutes, 21 seconds
And then uh Robert Bigalow did a a piece on uh 60 Minutes. I think that was in early 2017 or was that in 2016? And he just said, "Oh yeah, aliens are here.
30:31
30 minutes, 31 seconds
They walk among us." And his interviewer was utterly incredulous. But Bigalow just put that right out there. And then what we learned is that behind the
30:39
30 minutes, 39 seconds
scenes you had people like Tom Dong working with people like Christopher Melon, uh Hal Putoff,
30:46
30 minutes, 46 seconds
eventually Luis Alzando and Steve Justice and they create to the Stars Academy of Arts and Sciences in the fall of 2017.
30:55
30 minutes, 55 seconds
And that was actually that was the turning point because they were I think really Melon uh my understanding he was able to work with like Leslie Kane, Rob
31:03
31 minutes, 3 seconds
Blumenthal and Helen Cooper with the New York Times. Um Brian uh oh golly what is his last name? Brian Bend.
31:10
31 minutes, 10 seconds
Bend. Yes. Of politico. Thank you.
31:14
31 minutes, 14 seconds
And they were able to arrange for like reasonable
31:21
31 minutes, 21 seconds
mainstream coverage. New York Times. Uh, I'm pretty sure Leslie and Ralph had to fight for that to get in there, but they did.
31:29
31 minutes, 29 seconds
And, uh, that was the turning point.
31:30
31 minutes, 30 seconds
That really was because then you have a situation where suddenly after years of denial,
31:38
31 minutes, 38 seconds
the Pentagon says, "Oh, well, yeah, we did have a UFO program." Or actually, the Pentagon didn't say it.
31:44
31 minutes, 44 seconds
New York Times reported it and the Pentagon had to admit it. Uh, only $22 million called ATIP.
31:51
31 minutes, 51 seconds
actually was OAP, but anyway, we all got that untangled eventually. And uh then we learned about the the tic-tac
31:58
31 minutes, 58 seconds
encounter and all of that. That was the transformation. Absolutely. And but the thing was uh boy, I remember this so
32:06
32 minutes, 6 seconds
well. Everyone was really excited and and you had people saying, "This is disclosure." And I I look, I admit when that article
32:15
32 minutes, 15 seconds
first hit the scenes, I thought, "Whoa, nobody expected this." it came like a bolt out of the blue
32:22
32 minutes, 22 seconds
and it did change the culture. Uh you then people like Tucker Carlson taking it on and uh I think he actually has
32:30
32 minutes, 30 seconds
done the best of all the mainstream people with this subject in my opinion.
32:35
32 minutes, 35 seconds
But we're still even now it's 10 years later almost and we're still taking baby steps in our conversation about this.
32:41
32 minutes, 41 seconds
barely scratching the surface about uh actual deep cover up aspects of this.
32:49
32 minutes, 49 seconds
Um we have a long long way to go and and I think I think the important thing that I would stress is that
32:59
32 minutes, 59 seconds
what I think we saw in 2017 and I think what we are still seeing is a tugof-war back and forth uh factional struggle
33:07
33 minutes, 7 seconds
from within that community. This is not uh in my opinion anyway a single directed roll out of a controlled
33:14
33 minutes, 14 seconds
disclosure uh for further public manipulation. I do think that there are people on the side
33:22
33 minutes, 22 seconds
of maintaining this secret who want to continue to keep this as secret as possible to protect their own interests.
33:30
33 minutes, 30 seconds
And I do think that, you know, people who want this information out, they're not necessarily saying, "Oh yeah, the public should know everything." I don't think that they I don't get the idea
33:39
33 minutes, 39 seconds
that they believe that. Um I mean, we'd have to ask them, but I think all of them, whether it's Eric Davis or Lou
33:46
33 minutes, 46 seconds
Alzando or Halputoff, I mean, I'm just hypothesizing, but I would doubt that any one of them would think the public
33:53
33 minutes, 53 seconds
should know every single thing. So, I think they all want their own version of a limited disclosure, however they would define it. I don't know that there's a
34:02
34 minutes, 2 seconds
um a single unified uh faction that that is in agreement on all aspects of this. I I seriously doubt
34:11
34 minutes, 11 seconds
that. But they are kind of in agreement that more needs to come out. And it's easy for them to agree because they're
34:19
34 minutes, 19 seconds
they're still really on the back foot when you look at everything that's happened and not happened.
34:26
34 minutes, 26 seconds
We we there's a long way to go. And I mean, think of the uh the five so far five UAP releases by the Trump White
34:34
34 minutes, 34 seconds
House, which you know, they're interesting. So, they're combinations of videos and basically PDF uh files that
34:42
34 minutes, 42 seconds
you can read. And um the files are actually they're historical mostly. Some of them are are
34:50
34 minutes, 50 seconds
contemporary. All of them I found actually quite interesting. And some of them I wish I'd had access to when I was writing my um histories of the 1940s and
35:00
35 minutes
50s would have been nice. Uh the videos unfortunately while interest some of them are very
35:08
35 minutes, 8 seconds
interesting to look at but all of them are redacted in the sense that you can't do a proper analysis of any of them. So you don't really know how fast these things were. You don't know how distant
35:16
35 minutes, 16 seconds
they were to the camera. All of that's been all of it. I I think there was a study done of over of all all of them.
35:22
35 minutes, 22 seconds
more than a hundred that have been released and not in a single one of them can you do a proper uh speed analysis
35:29
35 minutes, 29 seconds
for example of the objects. So we're really hampered with information that even has come out. So this is not
35:36
35 minutes, 36 seconds
disclosure. This is basically the government uh following the CYA rule and uh dealing
35:43
35 minutes, 43 seconds
with public public demand for more information and they're giving as little as they as they're able to give with the with the
35:52
35 minutes, 52 seconds
appearance that this is meaningful. But why would you expect anything else? Like that's what they're going to do. So we're looking at a back and forth. This
36:00
36 minutes
is a back and forth fight and and it it's a continually evolving one. So one side does one thing, the other side
36:07
36 minutes, 7 seconds
reacts. And so I think what they're trying to do is basically absorb the initiatives for disclosure in into their
36:16
36 minutes, 16 seconds
own system and kind of capture it and and shut the rest of us up. And we shouldn't be surprised that that's what they're trying to do.
36:25
36 minutes, 25 seconds
Yeah. Yeah. I mean with these trunches and a lot of other videos and things that have come out in recent years, do you think the quality of the evidence
Chapter 8: Modern evidence quality
36:32
36 minutes, 32 seconds
has actually improved in more recent years or or would the biggest change simply be that governments, politicians and mainstream media are just simply talking about the subject?
36:43
36 minutes, 43 seconds
Well, the quality of the evidence in terms of United States official military videos and things like that, that's
36:51
36 minutes, 51 seconds
certainly better because in the past we didn't have any of that. like we didn't had none of that.
36:56
36 minutes, 56 seconds
We knew that it existed. You read some of the old books from the 50s and 60s and you'd hear about gun camera footage being taken by this pilot and that and no one ever saw it.
37:05
37 minutes, 5 seconds
So the fact that we have even clips of, you know, from 2017 of the tic tac from
37:12
37 minutes, 12 seconds
' 04 or a tic tac from 04 or the gimbal video um and some of these others, however you want to argue of over are they genuine?
37:23
37 minutes, 23 seconds
UAP or not. The fact that we have them is is a bonus. Uh the fact that in the last I think it was number five, the last trunch, everyone loves that word.
37:34
37 minutes, 34 seconds
Uh the 2019 USS Omaha U video that infrared of of an object descending into the Pacific Ocean there.
37:44
37 minutes, 44 seconds
Now, that was originally leaked out to Jeremy Corbel a couple of years earlier.
37:49
37 minutes, 49 seconds
And uh but what was interesting is that in the latest release you they they released that one and then the video from just before and just after.
38:00
38 minutes
And along with that they released some cell phone uh video taken by some sailors above deck at night of the
38:09
38 minutes, 9 seconds
craziness going on around the ship which was also happening. That was a really crazy night. That was in 2019. So that's a um that's something we want. you know,
38:18
38 minutes, 18 seconds
we want these things. There's still uh a lot of the uh metadata is missing from a
38:25
38 minutes, 25 seconds
lot of these videos, but the fact that we have them, I I have to say like take the win. There's more there's much more
38:33
38 minutes, 33 seconds
that we need to get, but um you know, we are getting some things. In fact, uh, in the recent one of the recent White House
38:41
38 minutes, 41 seconds
releases, there were some FBI reconstructions of some of the interesting orb sightings
38:48
38 minutes, 48 seconds
and triangle sightings that were taking place in different parts of the United States. And yes, they're artistic reconstructions, but they're FBI
38:56
38 minutes, 56 seconds
reconstructions, and they look pretty damn interesting.
39:00
39 minutes
So you you can get the idea that someone within the bureau there thought that these were important enough that they
39:07
39 minutes, 7 seconds
warranted a sophisticated graphic reconstruction. So we're getting some indications
39:15
39 minutes, 15 seconds
from within the US system that this is being taken seriously.
39:22
39 minutes, 22 seconds
Uh it's a long way from disclosure.
39:25
39 minutes, 25 seconds
But if this type of thing had been coming out in earlier decades,
39:30
39 minutes, 30 seconds
I I actually think like I think if if uh Fraver's Encounter had come out, you
39:38
39 minutes, 38 seconds
know, in earlier decades or the Omaha video come out in earlier decades, I I think it would have had a
39:46
39 minutes, 46 seconds
bigger impact on society. I could be wrong, but something something's changed in our uh in our culture, our
39:54
39 minutes, 54 seconds
civilization that I I think is it just that we're everyone's glued to their screen and it's like we have an attention span of a of a goldfish now
40:02
40 minutes, 2 seconds
and it's like okay, let's move on to the next thing. I don't know. I'm not sure.
40:05
40 minutes, 5 seconds
But uh like a lot that has come out even though it's short of official confirmation,
40:14
40 minutes, 14 seconds
it's really quite powerful. It's quite powerful. But as a civilization, we're not putting it all together into a coherent conclusion.
40:24
40 minutes, 24 seconds
Yeah, I completely agree. I think uh we're very quick to move on to the next thing, the next fix, let's say, and so
40:32
40 minutes, 32 seconds
we may not really take into consideration the how powerful some of these uh cases and events are. So, yeah, I agree. Um let's
Chapter 9: USO research and patterns
40:41
40 minutes, 41 seconds
talk about USOs, Richard. Obviously, you've just recently released volume two of your three volume history of USO. So, I'm going to take it off of my little bookstand here.
40:50
40 minutes, 50 seconds
There we go. This is it. Yay.
40:52
40 minutes, 52 seconds
Wonderful. How's that been? How's that been received? Tell us about again, as we're talking about research, tell us about the research behind it.
41:00
41 minutes
Yeah, I think pretty well. Uh I haven't I haven't looked at reviews lately, but uh on Amazon where it sells, I think people seem to like it.
41:08
41 minutes, 8 seconds
Uh I love this project. It's It's been one of the most fun things that I've done in all of all of my years researching this subject. Uh I started
41:17
41 minutes, 17 seconds
this I think about 5 years ago. Was it 2021 or 22? I actually can't remember now. Uh and I was just on a lark. Uh
41:25
41 minutes, 25 seconds
there was over my website, one of the members of my site was asking me about a particular case
41:32
41 minutes, 32 seconds
which was a USO case from 1945 off the Illutian Islands there. And uh I thought, oh yeah, that's an interesting.
41:39
41 minutes, 39 seconds
So I I I did a little bit of a presentation for my site on that and I thought, damn it, like where where are
41:47
41 minutes, 47 seconds
all of these cases? Are is there any compendium of all of these USO cases?
41:52
41 minutes, 52 seconds
Well, and I knew there wasn't. And I thought there really ought to be. There had been a couple of books
42:00
42 minutes
uh done in the past. one from 1970, a really cool book by a guy named Ivan Sanderson who was a excellent writer,
42:07
42 minutes, 7 seconds
but that was from 1970 and you know there was a lot that was not in that book that needed to be there. Uh there
42:15
42 minutes, 15 seconds
was research from the late Carl Feint who I I knew uh a little bit and had a lot of respect for. Carl wrote a book
42:23
42 minutes, 23 seconds
called Water UFO, very good book, and he added more than Sanderson did, but even that really wasn't a uh comprehensive.
42:33
42 minutes, 33 seconds
So, I just thought, let's find all the sources, all the databases, all the books, all the magazines, out of print, in print, whatever, and see what I can
42:42
42 minutes, 42 seconds
um you know, vacuum up and um see what I find and can I do anything with it. And I did. I found thousands of potential
42:50
42 minutes, 50 seconds
cases. is I narrowed it down to about 700 uh that I thought were like good like really good cases that I I could say I
42:58
42 minutes, 58 seconds
think this is a USO and I thought 99% of them were unknown
43:05
43 minutes, 5 seconds
even to serious researchers honestly these were just they just gone by the board and no one was paying attention to them and I thought what a horrible shame
43:15
43 minutes, 15 seconds
you know just imagine you're sitting in a boat in the 1950s and this
43:24
43 minutes, 24 seconds
blue light comes out of this deserted lake at the dead of night. There's no one there and it lifts up a little bit and it it follows you in your rowboat
43:32
43 minutes, 32 seconds
while you and your wife get the hell out of there to go back to your car. It's like, okay, we're gone. That's an amazing thing and it's just totally
43:39
43 minutes, 39 seconds
forgotten. Or a guy uh who was working as a rigger on a on an Illutian island called Shemyat Island in in January
43:48
43 minutes, 48 seconds
1952. whose name was Elden White. It was one of my favorite stories. And he's a rigger was someone the US Air Force had
43:55
43 minutes, 55 seconds
a base there. This place was closer to Russia than to Alaska. It's way way out there in the northern Pacific uh between
44:02
44 minutes, 2 seconds
the Pacific and the Bearing Sea. It's cold. And in January, it's viciously cold. So, he's out there. He has a day
44:09
44 minutes, 9 seconds
off. His job was to operate uh like all kinds of heavy staging equipment for the Air Force so they can move their big
44:16
44 minutes, 16 seconds
machinery around. So, he's got the day off and he's just looking out at the ocean, not much to do, and he hears a uh
44:24
44 minutes, 24 seconds
a worring sound above him. And he looks up and a a few hundred feet is a a batshaped
44:31
44 minutes, 31 seconds
craft. And he described it in a lot of detail. It had some lights around the edge and it had a dome on top and uh it
44:41
44 minutes, 41 seconds
it did the famous falling leaf descent right to about 75 ft above him which is pretty close
44:49
44 minutes, 49 seconds
and it hovered. It just stayed there motionless for a short while and then it tilted and slid right into the ocean
44:56
44 minutes, 56 seconds
right before his eyes and he sat he stood there waiting for it to come back up and it never did. And then 14 years
45:04
45 minutes, 4 seconds
later, he writes this longhand letter to NIKAP
45:11
45 minutes, 11 seconds
uh the organization to just describe what he saw and it and it sat in their files for for ages and um and then Carl
45:20
45 minutes, 20 seconds
Finte found it many many years later and I I saw it on his website. I was like, "Oh my god, that that's one guy like
45:27
45 minutes, 27 seconds
Elden White. No one investigated this uh but he was clearly a sincere guy. He
45:36
45 minutes, 36 seconds
writes this long description out. Wasn't looking for publicity. He said this is what happened. And by the way, that region uh that desolate, cold,
45:44
45 minutes, 44 seconds
inhospitable region, there's a number of USO cases up there, including north of it into the Bearing Sea itself. And you really have to wonder like is something
45:53
45 minutes, 53 seconds
down there? I I suspect something is. So cases like that, I read these and I'm like,
46:00
46 minutes
we cannot allow ourselves to forget these stories. These are incredible, remarkable. Some of them are
46:07
46 minutes, 7 seconds
exceptionally well documented. Others just oneperson account like Elden Whites was, but I think they're credible and
46:15
46 minutes, 15 seconds
they they um they're consistent. they they reveal certain patterns that uh I
46:23
46 minutes, 23 seconds
also started noticing once I started to break it down and I created a big spreadsheet. Uh I I for every
46:31
46 minutes, 31 seconds
case that I uh researched, I extracted about 15 or sometimes 16 different data points out of it. Did it happen in the
46:39
46 minutes, 39 seconds
daytime or nighttime? Uh what was the shape of the craft? Uh was it entering the water? Was it leaving the water? Was it just under the water? Was it hovering low above the water sucking water up?
46:50
46 minutes, 50 seconds
Like all of these different things. Um, were there effects that were reported by the witness such as electromagnetic
46:57
46 minutes, 57 seconds
effects on equipment and so on. And so once I started laying all that out, I saw definite patterns as well, which
47:04
47 minutes, 4 seconds
made me much more confident that this was probably sound data. Um, we can get into that, but essentially what I would
47:11
47 minutes, 11 seconds
say is that these objects uh they don't they're not behaving randomly. They they have intent. They
47:19
47 minutes, 19 seconds
have definite behavior that shows intelligence and shows precision, I would say. Um,
47:26
47 minutes, 26 seconds
for example, I've mentioned this elsewhere, but it's really worth repeating. The day versus night uh breakdown, I didn't notice this until I started looking at at my spreadsheet.
47:38
47 minutes, 38 seconds
which by the way is available as a free download on my website. You can go to Richard members just type in USO spreadsheet and you can download the
47:45
47 minutes, 45 seconds
PDF. It's it's large. Uh but anyway, so day versus night,
47:52
47 minutes, 52 seconds
um up through the end of 1967, um of all the cases that I
48:02
48 minutes, 2 seconds
located and wrote about, literally 50% of them occurred in daylight and 50% occurred at night. Oh wow. Okay.
48:10
48 minutes, 10 seconds
After 1967, I I liken it to flipping a switch. it went almost immediately to 75% or 74% at
48:19
48 minutes, 19 seconds
night uh almost immediately. Uh which it is to this day and and for military cases uh
48:28
48 minutes, 28 seconds
that number moved to nearly 90% at night um about that. So so to me that's not a random result.
48:38
48 minutes, 38 seconds
That's uh that sounds like intent. And then the same thing refers to electromagnetic interference.
48:47
48 minutes, 47 seconds
So for uh the real difference there is the is between civilian and military encounters where military encounters are
48:56
48 minutes, 56 seconds
almost exactly twice as likely to have experience electromagnetic interference from these USOs.
49:03
49 minutes, 3 seconds
So, so that indicates to me anyway that electromagnetic interference is not just some random byproduct of these objects
49:12
49 minutes, 12 seconds
which a lot of times people had wondered about. But I think I think it can be used intentionally for specific purposes as a form of uh sometimes what I call
49:21
49 minutes, 21 seconds
data denial by them. you know, like you're you're you're one of them and you're approaching a US uh aircraft
49:27
49 minutes, 27 seconds
carrier and you want to know, does this does this beast have any new weaponry on it? Like, does it have anything else that we want to know about? So, you want
49:36
49 minutes, 36 seconds
to get in close. Maybe you want to scan it and you also need to shut their their weapons down and you want to shut other things down while you're doing it. And
49:44
49 minutes, 44 seconds
you want to deny them the opportunity to extract data from you. So you turn off their uh their instruments or or you make it otherwise difficult for them to
49:53
49 minutes, 53 seconds
uh to follow you because they're really masters at managing distance as well. I see. So there's a lot of things in the behavior that make me think they know
50:02
50 minutes, 2 seconds
exactly what they're doing. This is this is intentional. This is not natural phenomenon. This is an intelligent,
50:08
50 minutes, 8 seconds
highly highly sophisticated um group whoever whatever they are.
50:15
50 minutes, 15 seconds
Yeah. Would you say within this time number of years now looking at USOs and the underwater realm let's say do you
50:24
50 minutes, 24 seconds
think it adds more weight to the hypothesis and theories that they may well have some sort of underground bases or portals under the oceans where they
50:32
50 minutes, 32 seconds
traverse through does it yes I think I think so yeah I think they probably have underground bases as well but I think under the
50:41
50 minutes, 41 seconds
ocean you know from our point of view that there's so immense technological obstacles for us to have a base under
50:50
50 minutes, 50 seconds
the sea. I mean, you you'd have to you have to go inside a an undersea mountain, I guess, and dig in there. And
50:58
50 minutes, 58 seconds
I think it could it could be done, but it's uh a huge engineering feat. But if they have um better means of doing this
51:06
51 minutes, 6 seconds
type of thing, if they have an ability to uh fabricate their materials on the spot, which maybe
51:14
51 minutes, 14 seconds
they can, there's a couple of cases, for example, that take place u at the Puerto Rico
51:21
51 minutes, 21 seconds
trench, which is extremely deep. I don't have a lot of cases from that and actually I have a whole array of them
51:30
51 minutes, 30 seconds
from 1963 of all the years. I think I have three or four cases from that year. And um and
51:39
51 minutes, 39 seconds
then other other cases from near the trench from other years, but that's a that's a very deep place.
51:44
51 minutes, 44 seconds
And of course, we can't you can't send anything down there. I mean, a submarine would not survive.
51:49
51 minutes, 49 seconds
You could get a diving bell down there, but um you know, good luck with that.
51:54
51 minutes, 54 seconds
They these things have been seen entering and coming out of it apparently at least according to the witnesses. So that would be a pretty good place to
52:03
52 minutes, 3 seconds
have a operation if you can do it and you don't want these humans who are very observant and very territorial and kind
52:11
52 minutes, 11 seconds
of a hassle. Uh you you don't want them in your face. You you want to observe them. You don't want them observing you.
52:17
52 minutes, 17 seconds
So that might be a good place to go. Uh so the oceans in general I think are a a good place but but everything's changing
52:26
52 minutes, 26 seconds
like everything you know uh it's a dance I often liken it to that like they see us we see them they see us seeing them
52:34
52 minutes, 34 seconds
we see them seeing us and you know uh and so and they we our technology has
52:43
52 minutes, 43 seconds
radically transformed over the last century especially for being under the water you know just In the year 1900, we developed the very first actual
52:52
52 minutes, 52 seconds
submarine. We were not able to get into the water for any period before that.
52:57
52 minutes, 57 seconds
And even that was baby steps. But then we developed sonar not long after that.
53:01
53 minutes, 1 second
And then we um you know started being able to have radio communications and and then in World War II we have aircraft carriers and big battleships
53:10
53 minutes, 10 seconds
and submarines and then nuclear submarines after in the 1950s where you could stay under the water for months at a time. And um and then in the ' 50s,
53:19
53 minutes, 19 seconds
America started developing sonar arrays under the uh water in the east coast and then the west coast and then the Soviets followed with there. And so suddenly
53:28
53 minutes, 28 seconds
from 1900 to like 1960, it's not a long period of time, we just utterly transformed our ability to
53:36
53 minutes, 36 seconds
penetrate uh the ocean in certain ways. And so if you're them, you have to be seeing this and you're thinking, "Oh, okay. the
53:45
53 minutes, 45 seconds
humans are now they're on the move. They probably predicted this, I bet, but they still would have to have adapted.
53:53
53 minutes, 53 seconds
And um and so now here we are. We're now at a a place in the 2020s where we're developing more sophisticated underwater
54:03
54 minutes, 3 seconds
um unmanned vehicles that go under the water uh that don't need to be hooked up to a cable that can be battery operated
54:11
54 minutes, 11 seconds
and have a much better range than ever before. Like our eyes and ears under the water are becoming better and better.
54:19
54 minutes, 19 seconds
still lots of limitations. But so this is an evolving little dance.
54:27
54 minutes, 27 seconds
And then you know think of the other part of it which definitely comes up in in my research and and in uh this second
54:34
54 minutes, 34 seconds
volume particularly which covers the 1970s and 1980s.
54:39
54 minutes, 39 seconds
So those those you know critical cold war years and you've got the US Navy submarines, you got Soviet submarines.
54:47
54 minutes, 47 seconds
So, they're all looking for each other.
54:50
54 minutes, 50 seconds
Uh, not necessarily to attack each other, but they're always on the lookout. Where are these guys and you've got that whole thing?
54:59
54 minutes, 59 seconds
[snorts] But then at the same time, there's this third party that no one knows who these guys are. The Soviets
55:07
55 minutes, 7 seconds
in the 19 late60s and 70s had a name for them. They called them the I'm sure I'm mispronouncing this, Kavaki. KV
55:16
55 minutes, 16 seconds
A K R Y Kerry. It's their name for croaking or like frogs croaking. And they call them that because uh their
55:24
55 minutes, 24 seconds
sonar depicted or picked up these kind of croaking sound that would circle their
55:31
55 minutes, 31 seconds
submarines as they're in motion uh on a regular basis. This happened quite a lot. And so they're thinking, is
55:39
55 minutes, 39 seconds
it the Americans? they come up with some new technology to to screw with us. Uh they decided no, this doesn't seem to be
55:46
55 minutes, 46 seconds
American. And I don't I don't think there's any evidence that it was. Uh and they did a formal study of this for about a decade and then closed it up
55:55
55 minutes, 55 seconds
because I think they realized, well, they're not overtly hostile. They seem to be they approach, they circle, they approach again, and then they go away.
56:06
56 minutes, 6 seconds
So we're just since we can't do anything about it, let's just let let it go.
56:10
56 minutes, 10 seconds
So that was the Soviet experience. And then they had a number of pretty interesting um they have a lot of interesting USO
56:19
56 minutes, 19 seconds
encounters, the Soviets, the Russians during the 70s and 80s and in the 60s and in the 50s. Uh some were submarine
56:26
56 minutes, 26 seconds
encounters, others were uh surface ship encounters, but they had quite a few. Um the Americans, we I don't have as many
56:33
56 minutes, 33 seconds
submarine encounters on the American side. a couple. I have a few, but enough to to demonstrate, oh yes, the American
56:41
56 minutes, 41 seconds
submariners were having these u quite quite a lot of American surface vessel encounters with these things. So, um so
56:50
56 minutes, 50 seconds
it's a real drama. like you've got, you know, you're the two leading navies in opposition to each other
56:58
56 minutes, 58 seconds
and yet there's this other there's this other intelligence that's operational and and watching the whole thing it seems.
57:06
57 minutes, 6 seconds
Yeah, absolutely. Fascinating books, fascinating research. So good to see and I I highly recommend them to anybody if they really want to dig in, especially
57:14
57 minutes, 14 seconds
to cases that have just never been spoken about.
57:18
57 minutes, 18 seconds
Yeah. And thanks. It was a lot of fun to uh write this. And I'm actually I'm still uh I'm pulling down
57:24
57 minutes, 24 seconds
uh some cases from 2026 and 2025. When I did my initial survey of all this, I I
57:31
57 minutes, 31 seconds
wrapped it up in 2024, right?
57:34
57 minutes, 34 seconds
And uh I always knew I would have to go back and just see what from the 2020s have I missed. So I'm I'm actually
57:41
57 minutes, 41 seconds
finishing that now. And uh there's quite a few. there's there's just as many in the last few years as as in other years
57:48
57 minutes, 48 seconds
it seems. Um so it's actually it's a very very um it's fascinating partly because
57:57
57 minutes, 57 seconds
you know these these are cases that I've never come across either. Like it's like what what new thing am I going to find?
58:02
58 minutes, 2 seconds
Some new some new legendary classic cases or one that's in here. Uh there's definitely a number of that are very very interesting even from recent years.
58:12
58 minutes, 12 seconds
So, uh, that'll be interesting to get them in there. I've got a really great illustrator, Alan Lavine, who's done a nice, really nice job with with these
58:19
58 minutes, 19 seconds
cases, and, uh, that helps to bring them to life, too. So, hopefully I'll just come back one more time and say, "Hey, can you do this one from 2025,
58:26
58 minutes, 26 seconds
[laughter]
58:26
58 minutes, 26 seconds
get that in there." Very exciting. I'm really looking forward to that last volume to see what you've discovered. Very exciting. Well,
Chapter 10: Closing thoughts
58:34
58 minutes, 34 seconds
Richard, uh, I'd like to spend this last section talking more laid-back, kind of fun questions.
58:41
58 minutes, 41 seconds
Some would say quickfire. You don't have to really go into some depth on your answers, but first question would be most underrated UFO case of all time.
58:50
58 minutes, 50 seconds
Oh wow. Okay, [laughter] that's uh on the spot.
58:57
58 minutes, 57 seconds
Oh my goodness. I you you caught me to totally offg guard. [laughter] Maybe um I mean this is a weird answer
59:05
59 minutes, 5 seconds
and I don't know if I would say this completely but maybe the first Kenneth Arnold sighting from 1947 is kind of underrated.
59:12
59 minutes, 12 seconds
Uh and um this this point was made to me very very strongly by the late Dr. Bruce
59:19
59 minutes, 19 seconds
Mcabe who really knew the Arnold case extremely well wrote a book on it called three minutes in June uh because it was
59:28
59 minutes, 28 seconds
a three-minute sighting. And I say this because Arnold, you know, we think of this as early days 1947.
59:35
59 minutes, 35 seconds
How accurate could he have been? He actually was a superb witness. Uh and he was probably the fact that he was such an excellent witness was probably the
59:43
59 minutes, 43 seconds
reason that flying saucer mania happened at all. But he uh you know he was a
59:50
59 minutes, 50 seconds
private pilot. He later uh ran for lieutenant governor of the state of Idaho. He was a very like highly regarded guy, a very intelligent man. He
1:00:00
1 hour
was flying 32 years old. He's flying his private plane in the mountains, the Cascade Mountains in Washington, looking
1:00:07
1 hour, 7 seconds
for a um a reward for a uh that the military had for a crashed aircraft. So he's like, I'm gonna go take a look, see
1:00:15
1 hour, 15 seconds
if I can find it. And that's when he sees these um nine objects glinting in
1:00:22
1 hour, 22 seconds
the distance. he um was able to
1:00:29
1 hour, 29 seconds
put his plane on um I guess whatever version of autopilot he had then and he
1:00:34
1 hour, 34 seconds
was able to really study these uh objects in the sky
1:00:42
1 hour, 42 seconds
and was able to gauge I guess accurately his distance from the key mountains that
1:00:50
1 hour, 50 seconds
were there and therefore to gauge the distance that these objects traveled from one spot to another. Yeah.
1:00:57
1 hour, 57 seconds
And um and calculated their speed at a minimum speed of,200 miles per hour, like twice the speed of sound u roughly.
1:01:07
1 hour, 1 minute, 7 seconds
And um we had absolutely nothing like that whatsoever. I think Arnold really is it's a bit of an underrated sighting.
1:01:14
1 hour, 1 minute, 14 seconds
His his observations were superb. He was um very uh he was very like sober matter of
1:01:24
1 hour, 1 minute, 24 seconds
fact about it. So I don't really know if that's the most underrated UFO sighting, but you caught me off guard there. I'm just going to toss that one up.
1:01:32
1 hour, 1 minute, 32 seconds
I like that. And I think that I've done this with a few people and it's to see them come up with cases like that that might not be the most underrated, but I
1:01:41
1 hour, 1 minute, 41 seconds
like hearing and seeing where their mind goes with it. So that's that's good.
1:01:46
1 hour, 1 minute, 46 seconds
sighting is famous obviously and in that sense it might not be underrated but I think that it's it's uh easy to
1:01:53
1 hour, 1 minute, 53 seconds
underestimate just how excellent a witness he was top-notch witness absolutely completely agree
1:02:01
1 hour, 2 minutes, 1 second
I'm sure there's better cases I you know could have found but that's the best I could do I like it I like it Richard right one
1:02:09
1 hour, 2 minutes, 9 seconds
UFO researcher living or dead you'd love to have dinner with well Leonard Stringfield for Sure. He's up there with mine. Yeah.
1:02:17
1 hour, 2 minutes, 17 seconds
Yeah. I mean, he's the guy who really opened up the whole crash retrieval phenomenon even more than Stanton
1:02:26
1 hour, 2 minutes, 26 seconds
Friedman. Everyone knows Stanton Friedman. He was great. But I've already had dinner with Stan, so I don't need to say again. Leonard Stringfield, uh, I
1:02:34
1 hour, 2 minutes, 34 seconds
never knew. He died in 1994, which was the year that I just really started getting into this. I would love to have talked to him. I would also love to have
1:02:41
1 hour, 2 minutes, 41 seconds
had a dinner with Coral and Jim Lorenzan, especially Coral Lorenzan. I think she was a bit of a a feisty
1:02:50
1 hour, 2 minutes, 50 seconds
person, researcher. She had a lot of opinions. She ran um the Apro Bulletin uh one of the pioneers. I would have
1:02:58
1 hour, 2 minutes, 58 seconds
liked to have met with Donald Kio now that you mentioned it.
1:03:01
1 hour, 3 minutes, 1 second
And probably uh probably Ed Rupelt, the head of Project Blue Book in the early 50s would have been nice.
1:03:07
1 hour, 3 minutes, 7 seconds
Proper dinner party. That would be
1:03:09
1 hour, 3 minutes, 9 seconds
[laughter]
1:03:10
1 hour, 3 minutes, 10 seconds
Absolutely. It would have been nice. Yeah.
1:03:12
1 hour, 3 minutes, 12 seconds
Yeah. If you could witness one historical UFO event firsthand, which one would it be?
1:03:21
1 hour, 3 minutes, 21 seconds
Now, that's a really good one.
1:03:27
1 hour, 3 minutes, 27 seconds
Uh there's a few definitely the uh 1976 Iranian encounter over Tehran, September6.
1:03:38
1 hour, 3 minutes, 38 seconds
Yeah, that's that was that that's a tough one because it was at night. So for daytime ones, uh how about Stevensville, Texas in 2008?
1:03:49
1 hour, 3 minutes, 49 seconds
Definitely.
1:03:50
1 hour, 3 minutes, 50 seconds
Uh that's one I would like to that that's a really amazing one. We sometimes forget about that. It's an enormous object scene. Uh still dusk,
1:03:58
1 hour, 3 minutes, 58 seconds
still enough light out, people could see that very very well. Yeah, maybe that one.
1:04:03
1 hour, 4 minutes, 3 seconds
I'm like a lot many many others. That's the thing. I think given, you know, a bit of time to think about these questions, you could certainly probably come up with something you feel more
1:04:12
1 hour, 4 minutes, 12 seconds
relevant, but that's why I do it because I like these I like these answers.
1:04:15
1 hour, 4 minutes, 15 seconds
Oh, one other the 2006 Chicago O'Hare airport. Oh, yes.
1:04:21
1 hour, 4 minutes, 21 seconds
Uh would like to have seen that one directly. Definitely. That was a that was a hell of a case. Yeah. Yeah.
1:04:27
1 hour, 4 minutes, 27 seconds
I think that's underrated as well. It gets forgotten about. It really does.
1:04:30
1 hour, 4 minutes, 30 seconds
Yeah. It was important at the time because it took place during a bit of a lull in uh UFO publicity and that one kind of
1:04:39
1 hour, 4 minutes, 39 seconds
jumpstarted a lot of interest for a while.
1:04:42
1 hour, 4 minutes, 42 seconds
I can imagine and and that [clears throat] died away.
1:04:43
1 hour, 4 minutes, 43 seconds
But yeah, it's somewhat forgotten now. I think you're right.
1:04:48
1 hour, 4 minutes, 48 seconds
After 30 years researching this subject, what's the one question you still desperately want answered?
1:04:56
1 hour, 4 minutes, 56 seconds
Well, um, well, I guess I'd like to know.
1:05:10
1 hour, 5 minutes, 10 seconds
Oh, boy. I was thinking about this and I and I had I thought it all out.
1:05:14
1 hour, 5 minutes, 14 seconds
[laughter]
1:05:17
1 hour, 5 minutes, 17 seconds
I guess I would like to actually I would like to know if it were possible
1:05:26
1 hour, 5 minutes, 26 seconds
is it is it one group shall we say or more than one
1:05:33
1 hour, 5 minutes, 33 seconds
group? How long have the various groups been monitoring or watching us?
1:05:45
1 hour, 5 minutes, 45 seconds
And um where do they come from? Yeah.
1:05:48
1 hour, 5 minutes, 48 seconds
Are they from are they from another world like this, which I still suspect, or are they from something more exotic like another dimension of reality?
1:06:00
1 hour, 6 minutes
Like those are those are some top ones. Yeah, of course.
1:06:05
1 hour, 6 minutes, 5 seconds
There's there's so many so much to go into.
1:06:08
1 hour, 6 minutes, 8 seconds
Do you mean us harm? [laughter] Are you going to save us from ourselves?
1:06:14
1 hour, 6 minutes, 14 seconds
Uh yeah, I don't know. [laughter] Yeah. Last question, Richard. 10 years from now, will we be will we be living in a post-disclosure world?
1:06:24
1 hour, 6 minutes, 24 seconds
Well, we're going to be living in a very different world. It's going to be a very different world. Yeah.
1:06:30
1 hour, 6 minutes, 30 seconds
Uh you you can really see like it's actually becoming visible
1:06:38
1 hour, 6 minutes, 38 seconds
in so many ways. We're looking at a uh a complete geopolitical revolution. It's happening right now. You're wa you're watching the end of the American Empire.
1:06:49
1 hour, 6 minutes, 49 seconds
It's it's happening right now. Um at the same time, we're looking at an AI revolution that is transforming
1:06:58
1 hour, 6 minutes, 58 seconds
how we exchange information and it's and it's transforming our our social relations and and everything else
1:07:06
1 hour, 7 minutes, 6 seconds
I can imagine. So 10 years from now, we're going to be in a diff a different world. Uh my s my fear is that we're we're
1:07:15
1 hour, 7 minutes, 15 seconds
developing or we're selecting for a kind of human that might be less uh
1:07:22
1 hour, 7 minutes, 22 seconds
able to absorb like to process in a mature way
1:07:31
1 hour, 7 minutes, 31 seconds
uh this kind of information. I mean, maybe I'm maybe I'm wrong here, but we're it seems to me that we're our
1:07:38
1 hour, 7 minutes, 38 seconds
technology is is helping to erode certain cognitive advantages that that we're
1:07:47
1 hour, 7 minutes, 47 seconds
going to need like the ability to have an extended attention on something. the ability to go deep into um into history
1:07:57
1 hour, 7 minutes, 57 seconds
and into a lot of these philosophical issues that that this subject demands. I I I don't want to sound like I'm completely
1:08:06
1 hour, 8 minutes, 6 seconds
losing faith in our society, but I think that we're we're creating a lot of problems for ourselves in our ability as a civilization to process
1:08:15
1 hour, 8 minutes, 15 seconds
this information collectively as a civilization.
1:08:21
1 hour, 8 minutes, 21 seconds
So um will we have a post-disclosure world? I mean
1:08:28
1 hour, 8 minutes, 28 seconds
you know I formulated this about 1015 years ago and I think in a way it's still kind of accurate. I I see I see this almost sometimes like as a foot
1:08:37
1 hour, 8 minutes, 37 seconds
race between the people and the the power structure.
1:08:45
1 hour, 8 minutes, 45 seconds
So for example I think this might still be valid. So the power structure that is that you
1:08:53
1 hour, 8 minutes, 53 seconds
we're we're in the midst of a of a kind of global revolution
1:08:59
1 hour, 8 minutes, 59 seconds
it got interrupted in 2022 um by the war in Ukraine I think is
1:09:07
1 hour, 9 minutes, 7 seconds
actually what interrupted it. we were seeing a very very coherent sort of single movement.
1:09:14
1 hour, 9 minutes, 14 seconds
You know, remember when the Canadian truckers got demolished in their strike uh in early 2022 and then right on the
1:09:21
1 hour, 9 minutes, 21 seconds
heels of that was the um uh invasion of Ukraine, which which in retrospect I think you can say is is
1:09:28
1 hour, 9 minutes, 28 seconds
breaking the western the western alliance system pretty pretty completely and breaking the western power structure. So, but we're still moving into a kind of a global situation.
1:09:40
1 hour, 9 minutes, 40 seconds
Instead of just one global center, it's going to be several, I think. And so, a lot of centralized power
1:09:49
1 hour, 9 minutes, 49 seconds
could be like Orwell's uh you know, when when he wrote 1984, he had three groups, right?
1:09:54
1 hour, 9 minutes, 54 seconds
Um we might seriously be moving to something like that. But so if if all of that gets centralized
1:10:04
1 hour, 10 minutes, 4 seconds
um it really may not matter what what the people really think that information structure will be very very very
1:10:13
1 hour, 10 minutes, 13 seconds
well managed or if the people can get to the finish line first. So by that if a leak or some
1:10:22
1 hour, 10 minutes, 22 seconds
unexpected event, some black swan event happens to break the full narrative on
1:10:29
1 hour, 10 minutes, 29 seconds
uh on this subject and that that's still a possibility. Uh I just want to mention
1:10:36
1 hour, 10 minutes, 36 seconds
the u there's always rumors of some impending disclosure statement.
1:10:42
1 hour, 10 minutes, 42 seconds
Yeah. Uh, and now you know we're here in September of 20 226 and so the rumors are will Donald Trump do a disclosure? I
1:10:50
1 hour, 10 minutes, 50 seconds
mean it it just shocks me to hear this because I I don't believe it. Uh but but there are people who really think that
1:10:58
1 hour, 10 minutes, 58 seconds
this is happening and I don't know maybe they know something. I don't know. I wouldn't be surprised.
1:11:05
1 hour, 11 minutes, 5 seconds
I think that if in the current global environment, if Donald Trump were to actually try a
1:11:12
1 hour, 11 minutes, 12 seconds
disclosure statement like now, I I don't think it would be it would go over very well. I don't think it would be successful and I think it could have
1:11:20
1 hour, 11 minutes, 20 seconds
actually genuinely negative repercussions for the UFO truth community because it could really be
1:11:27
1 hour, 11 minutes, 27 seconds
bungled and it could be seen as an election stunt. it could be seen and like if he doesn't bring serious
1:11:34
1 hour, 11 minutes, 34 seconds
receipts to the table like really demonstrating beyond a shadow of a doubt you know there's a whole world of
1:11:41
1 hour, 11 minutes, 41 seconds
skeptical scientists out there a statement from Trump whom you know was the most polarizing political figure we've had in many many decades and
1:11:49
1 hour, 11 minutes, 49 seconds
generations like they're just not going to roll over and say oh yeah thank you president uh thanks for that information like they're going to want information
1:11:56
1 hour, 11 minutes, 56 seconds
that can be confirmed and if that's not done Well, then you have really one of the most
1:12:04
1 hour, 12 minutes, 4 seconds
significant events in human history becoming just another one news cycle and then it just goes away. I I think that's
1:12:12
1 hour, 12 minutes, 12 seconds
possible. So, it's something that has to be done well. And I could have imagined uh Trump first term doing just being
1:12:21
1 hour, 12 minutes, 21 seconds
crazy enough to do it. I often speculate like Trump 45, you know, when he um came in as this whether whether you want to
1:12:30
1 hour, 12 minutes, 30 seconds
believe real or posed opponent of the system, whatever. But he was opposed by elements of the power structure in the
1:12:38
1 hour, 12 minutes, 38 seconds
United States political community. It's undeniable. And you know, he was a nonprofessional politician, a guy who
1:12:46
1 hour, 12 minutes, 46 seconds
just shot it off at the side of his mouth whenever he wanted to. And I I couldn't have envisioned back then a 2 am tweet, you know, people, it's all real.
1:12:55
1 hour, 12 minutes, 55 seconds
Yeah.
1:12:55
1 hour, 12 minutes, 55 seconds
Uh yeah, you could just see that. But that was that was then. Um if he was ever truly oppositional to uh that
1:13:03
1 hour, 13 minutes, 3 seconds
structure, I think he's been swallowed up personally. I think he's been swallowed up by that whole structure.
1:13:09
1 hour, 13 minutes, 9 seconds
So um so as I just don't see I I just can't see him doing it, but there are
1:13:15
1 hour, 13 minutes, 15 seconds
people who believe he will. And um you know maybe [clears throat]
1:13:24
1 hour, 13 minutes, 24 seconds
if if he if he plans it out well he really should not do it before the midterms. I'll say that. That would be disastrous.
1:13:33
1 hour, 13 minutes, 33 seconds
Uh if he were really to want to do it then I would say plan this out. Be very methodical. Take
1:13:42
1 hour, 13 minutes, 42 seconds
your time. Wait a year. get all your ducks lined up and as you're winding down your second term, maybe consider it
1:13:52
1 hour, 13 minutes, 52 seconds
if you've got the goods that you can show the world because if you don't, I think it could really um it could be counterproductive.
1:14:01
1 hour, 14 minutes, 1 second
Yeah. No, I I agree. I think but then again, look, we've said it. He's not a rational and everyday normal human being
1:14:09
1 hour, 14 minutes, 9 seconds
like a lot of us are. So, who knows what might happen. No, look, I'll just I'm I'm not uh someone
1:14:16
1 hour, 14 minutes, 16 seconds
with TDS. That's I've I've been in fact I've it really has angered many of my friends and colleagues. I they wanted me
1:14:22
1 hour, 14 minutes, 22 seconds
to hate Trump more than than I do. Um I've always seen different sides of the guy and um and I I still do. But I do
1:14:31
1 hour, 14 minutes, 31 seconds
think that his decision-making capability is is definitely [sighs and gasps] if you didn't like it the first time around, it's much less
1:14:39
1 hour, 14 minutes, 39 seconds
now. I I really think so. personal opinion and um I think he's got himself stuck into a situation internationally
1:14:47
1 hour, 14 minutes, 47 seconds
that he probably can't get out very easily.
1:14:50
1 hour, 14 minutes, 50 seconds
We'll see. But I think uh this is a tough one. This is a really real bad one.
1:14:56
1 hour, 14 minutes, 56 seconds
And um and I think that's going to be a much bigger problem for us to deal with than disclosure moving from 26 into 2027.
1:15:05
1 hour, 15 minutes, 5 seconds
Indeed.
1:15:05
1 hour, 15 minutes, 5 seconds
That's my thought. We No, no, it's some very good points raised there, Richard. [snorts] Well, listen, thank you so much for your time, Richard. It's always an absolute
1:15:13
1 hour, 15 minutes, 13 seconds
pleasure. I could do these for hours on end, so thank you so much.
1:15:16
1 hour, 15 minutes, 16 seconds
I enjoyed it tremendously, Vinnie. Thank you for having me on.