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Headline edition July 8th 1947. The Army Air Forces has announced that a flying disc
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has been found and is now in the possession of the army.
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However, there have been a certain percentage of this volume of reports that have been made by credible
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observers of relatively incredible things.
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Uh there is very compelling evidence that we uh we may not be alone. Whatever that means.
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There's a whole fleet of them. Look on the NSA. Whoa. They dude.
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American public and global public finally understands UFOs are real.
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Non-human exotic origin vehicles that have either landed or crashed.
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Well, Tom, it's an honor to speak with you. Um, I know that you've done so much work over so many years when it comes to
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the Roswell case. Um, and I've wanted to talk about this case for so long, but I've heard so many different versions
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and variations of the story. Um, well, first things first, how are you?
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Okay, we're doing okay. I'm um I had surgery uh spinal surgery in November
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and uh I'm still in recovery but I'm coming along and uh I'm just happy to be anywhere.
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Absolutely. That's good to hear. Good to hear. So I suppose for anyone who may not be familiar with your work, how did
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you first get drawn into researching Roswell? That is a for me a very easy question.
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So, just keep lobbing those softballs up and I'll be okay.
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It was um I'd always been interested in UFOs as a kid and teenager
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and uh in 1980 this book called the Roswell Incident came out.
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It was written by William Burlitz and William Moore. Now, Berlitz is better
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known as a language fellow. He would teach uh how to speak different languages, but the original investigator
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on Roswell was a fellow named Stanton Freriedman.
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And he is also he is quite rightly uh identified as the father of Roswell
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because he he conducted the first interview of Jesse Marcel the base intelligence officer back in 1978.
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So two years later out comes this book called the Roswell Incident.
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This would be 1980 and it just blew me away. For all for all other UFO cases, they just for me
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3 minutes
fell by the wayside. This Roswell case had everything. It had a crash.
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It had little bodies in it. It had death threats. It had a cover up. And uh it
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just it for me it was a mystery that was still unsolved by this first book. It
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was the first book and it basically brought out the case which happened in 1947.
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But there were so many uh things that were left unsaid and not investigated
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upon. But for me it sort of kindled the fire.
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So, I'm waiting uh now, you know, in the 1980s for when's the next book coming out. Well, there wasn't one.
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And uh if you weren't like into UFOs, by that I mean signed up for like Mufon,
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the Mu Mutual UFO Network, because they had a bimonthly uh or monthly
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publication to stay current, but they hadn't done anything on Roswell either.
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So, uh I signed up also for CUFOS, the Center for UFO Studies, and Yeah.
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uh Chicago and they had these two fellows and and they they published something called the International UFO
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Reporter. Again, it was a bimonthly journal. But unlike Muon, they had these two fellas, Kevin Randall and Don
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Schmidt. We're now talking like 1990, okay? 19 10 years goes by, nothing.
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And these two fellas, Kevin Randall and Don Schmidt, had reopened the Roswell
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case. And every two months in the uh magazine that Pew put out, they would have an article.
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And so I'm thinking, you know, I have a I have a master's degree in anthropology.
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And part of the story was that the craft, the down craft back in 47 was first discovered by a group of
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archaeologists who are out there in New Mexico looking around for artifacts and
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place to set up camp and that sort of stuff. And they stumbled upon this downed saucer and these little bodies
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strewn about. So I called up Kevin Randall and I said, "Kevin, what have you done
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about trying to find the archaeologist?" He said, "Well, we interviewed a few, but we didn't get anything. You know,
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nothing." And I said, "Listen, uh, my understanding from the first book, the 1980 book, was that they were
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from the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia." And here I was living right outside of Philadelphia with a
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degree in anthropology, which includes archaeology. I said, "Listen, Kevin, if it's okay with you, let me see what I
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can find out about these archaeologists." Because I, you know, I knew the journals, I knew the subject and blah blah blah blah.
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Sure. So that's how I became uh my interest was rekindled again.
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And to make a long story short, I did find the archaeologists.
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They weren't from the University of Pennsylvania. They were from Texas Tech University in Leach, Texas, home of Buddy Holly and the Crickets.
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So, uh, so I did find them. That was my entry into the involvement in the
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investigation. I joined the Randall and Schmidt team at that point, 1991.
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So their first book came out in 1991.
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This was the second Roswell book and in my humble opinion this was the book that
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made the case a worldwide phenomenon because they had so many
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um footnotes and people that they interviewed that the first book never did. the first book just interviewed
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like Jesse Marcel, right? Um the the main the the mortician Glenn
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Dennis some fam family members of and that was it.
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But Randall and Schmidt dug deeper into the case and interviewed maybe uh I don't know if they reached a hundred
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witnesses or not but close to it. And this was the book in my opinion that set the case on the radar of people around the world.
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So that's how I got interested. That's how I got involved in the case. It was my degree in anthropology, which turns
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out Kevin Randall also had a degree in anthropology. So we hooked up really good on that. So that's how I that's how I became involved.
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Wonderful. Thank you for that. I appreciate it. So, I wonder, you know, over the years, and I know myself personally, I've heard so many versions and variations of the of what actually
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occurred uh during the incident. I wondered if you could talk me through it as you understand it now. You know, how
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many crash craft were there, where did they crash, who found it first, and then the sort of timeline, and then we can
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kind of break it down following that if you don't mind.
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Well, according to, you know, Stan Freriedman was the did the first interview
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and Stan believed to his dying day that there were two discs involved that
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crashed. One crashed near Roswell and the other one crashed 150 miles to the
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west on the plains of St. Augustine, okay? which was an old place to scene or ice age dried up ice uh lake bed.
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Well, my investigation into the archaeologist, we eliminated the plains of San Augustine as part of the Roswell
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incident. If anything happened on the plains of St. Augustine, it wasn't in 1947.
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Uh and we're not sure anything ever happened there other than a lot of archaeology.
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So, um, we're down to one disc that was, if it wasn't an internal
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explosion, like somebody pressed the wrong button, okay, internally, it it would have been a uh
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strike of lightning is our favorite uh uh culprit because back in July of every summer in
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New Mexico, they have what they call the monsoon season, right?
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And you've never seen lightning like this. I mean, this this lightning is scary. So, our belief was that because
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there are witnesses to a an explosion in the air rather than a crash on the ground. Yeah.
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And it would have been, at least in our view, a a lightning strike that the ship was not able to withstand.
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So the ship disintegrates, the outer skin disintegrates and comes little pieces come floating down on the Mac
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Brazzle. He's the rancher. His debris field they call the first site the debris field site 75 miles northwest of the town of Roswell.
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Even the Air Force agrees something happened there, but we just disagree on what it was.
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Yeah, it certainly wasn't a weather balloon. I can tell you that.
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So that's what happened. One one disc, one explosion and uh what happened when the ship exploded.
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Two of the beings inside we believe were ejected. They were ejected out and
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landed two and a half miles east of the debris field site and met their death on a low bluff which we call the the body
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the the D. Proctor is a body site because the the witness who led us there was D.
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Proctor through his mother, Loretta Proctor. And he said, "Here's where Mac M Brazzle found something else." And
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that something else we believe were two bodies because we had another witness to to the two bodies. But D Proctor took
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his mother who was on her deathbed. He at the time stuffed him. You know, when
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you get old, Vinnie, you start making uh uh statements. When you're talking, your
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mind gets ahead of you, right?
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But uh Deep Proctor, his mother was on a uh she had a illness. He says, "Mom, I
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got to show you something." So he packs her into his pickup. This is like 1994.
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And they go bouncing out into the desert. Now, his mother is on her deathbed. And he's put her in a pickup
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truck to show her something before she died. Well, she didn't die. She got better and she finally did die, but many years later.
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But he said, "Uh, here's where Mack found something else." So, we did witness, we found another witness who
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said, "Yo, yeah, there were two two little bodies there." And uh it was actually Loretta Proctor
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D's mother who showed us this site where it was. And there's a picture of me pointing pointing to the the spot where
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the the beings were found. So that's site number two, the Droctor body site, 2 and a half miles east of
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the debris field site, which is 70 75 76 miles northwest of Roswell. So there's one more site to go and this was the
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last site we found and it was we call it the we we call it the impact site. Now what this was do do
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you go by Vinnie? Is that what you go by or? Yes. Yes.
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Yeah. So Vinnie, th this is what we call the impact site. And what it was when the lightning strike, as we believe,
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exploded the ship, the inner cabin withtood the blast. So the inner cabin
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withtood the blast. It was either the inner cabin or some sort of escape emergency escape pod of some sort. that
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continued aloft for another 30 to 35 miles heading towards Roswell and came
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to rest uh 40 40 between 30 and 40 miles northwest
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more northerly of the town of Roswell up Highway 285.
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And what was in the this uh inner cabin?
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Three more beings. So there's a total of five all together.
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Two met their deaths on the deeproctor site and there were three in and
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on this capsule in this capsule. Two were found dead when the when uh the
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witnesses u the archaeological team got there. There were two dead sort of hanging out of the the the uh the uh
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inner cabin or a pod or whatever it was and one was still alive and walking around and we got that from
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a fireman who was the first uh official of some sort. He was with the fire department in Roswell got there before
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the military and he described the one was walking around. Five altogether, four dead, one still alive, one disc
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that disintegrated, but the inner cabin stayed aloft to the impact site. And that's uh those are the three sites we have.
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Wonderful. Wow. That's fascinating because I've not heard it in that much detail. So obviously the military um you
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know probably no doubt visit all three of the sites. Were there any other civilian witnesses that you've yet to mention that got there and saw anything beforehand?
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Before the military got there. Is that what you Oh yes. Uh the fireman Dan Dwire. Okay.
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We got his story from his daughter Frankie Row. Frankie Dwire Row.
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Right. uh she recently passed away and I I must tell you there are no firsthanders that we are aware of that
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are still alive. They're all gone. Even the children are starting to go. Even
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some grandchildren are going. So it's uh no more firsthanders to interview. But
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Frankie Row told us that her father got home that night.
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he had gotten out to the site because the archaeological team when they discovered the the wreck, they sent one
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of the uh uh I want to say attendees, but one of the student archaeologists
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phoned this into Roswell. So the the student went to a little town which was really just a gas station
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uh called uh Mesa phoned it into the uh fire department because they thought it was like you
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know maybe a because you know the the air base was just only 7 miles south of Roswell the 509th bomb group.
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Sure. Yeah.
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And they had crashes I won't say all the time but they had crashes that the ranchers were familiar with. And so the
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the archaeologists think they oh well this must be from the the base or something. So the student phoned it into the fire department. Now every phone
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call that would come into the fire department would also go to the sheriff's office. So the both became aware of it.
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And uh so Dan Dwire uh he was in the fire department uh and
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he heard this phone call come in and uh so he on his own he got he he got
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out there. They he drove something they called the tanker truck. It's basically a pickup truck with a water tank in the back because he didn't know what to
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expect. Maybe a small small plane crash, something like that. Mhm.
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So he gets out there with his crew chief, fell named Lee Reeves, who we never we never found Lee Reeves,
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but uh Dan Dwire got out there and uh so when he comes home that night, you know, his wife says, "Well, how was your day,
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sweetheart?" You know, and he says, "Well, we had a crash north of town of a flying saucer." Oh, yeah. What was it
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like? So he described the the uh craft.
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Well, were there were there you know were there was there anybody in it?
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Well, yes, there were there were these these creatures. He called them creatures, you know, little beings.
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Little pe they called them little people. Little people. That's what they used. Yeah.
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Yeah. There were little people. Two were dead and one was alive. Well, what was it like? So he described them three and
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a half feet tall. Large oval, large pear-shaped heads.
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No nose, just two little holes in the front, two holes in the ears, little slit for mouth. Oh, well, did did you
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talk to it? Yes, we talk to one another, but we don't talk like we're talking now. We talk to one another in our
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heads. Oh, well, what did you talk about?
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and he said, "Well, I was concerned about this uh little little person." And I'm thinking, "Oh my god, what
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what's going to happen to to it?" And lo and behold, he starts getting feedback
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from the creature saying essentially, "Don't worry about me.
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I've lost my ship. I've lost my comrades. They're all dead. I accept my fate.
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So don't don't worry about me. That was he was concerned about Dan Dwire.
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And that's all we got from from Frankie Row was that the creature was still alive. They talked to one another in
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their heads. We call it we would call it mental telepathy.
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Sure. And the creature was more concerned or at least as concerned about Dan Dwire's well-being as Dan Dwire was
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concerned about the well-being of the creature.
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So, uh, he got out there before the military.
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The sheriff of Roswell, George Wilcox, got out there shortly after the military
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had arrived and they wouldn't let him near the the stuff, but he did see enough that he
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told his uh wife Inz about what he saw, the creatures, the the ship and all
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that. and uh Inz died before we got to her, but we got the story from uh George
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Wilcox's granddaughter uh uh Barbara Duggar.
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So that's how we got to the sheriff's story. But he got out there just after the military had arrived. The military threatened all the archaeologists.
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They said, "You keep quiet because if you don't, you're going to lose whatever funding you're getting to go to college or to this or that." boy, we're going to cut that off.
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So, uh, they threatened them. They threatened George Wilcox and, uh, with his life and the life of his family
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because they use Will Wilcox was fluent in Spanish.
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Okay. And a number of the ranchers, the Spanish uh you know the ranchers uh northwest of town and their children,
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they would always go out when there was ever a crash, they would go out to get get souvenirs to check on if to check on
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who if anybody was uh hurt that they could attend to. And if you know while they were there, they would grab a
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souvenir. Certainly, it's our belief that they grab souvenirs this time as well.
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So they were they uh they used George Wilcox to travel around to the suspected
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Hispanic or Spanish community to issue the issue to issue the death threats if
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they talk. That's what they use George for. So one day they show up at the willox
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sheriff's office and INZ says, "Oh look, here comes here comes a jeep."
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Oh, I guess they're coming to give, you know, tell you what a what a great job you did in uh keeping the secret. Well,
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don't you know they grabbed George by the arm and they shoved him up against the wall. If you ever talk, we're not only going to kill you, we're going to
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kill Inz and we're going to kill all your children. Wow.
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And we got that story from Will Cox's daughters who were still alive when we
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were on the case. So that's what that's what uh they did to the the sheriff of Chavez County who helped them uh keep
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the secret to threaten people with death. And uh Will Cox never never ran
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for sheriff again. And uh his wife did, but she lost. But uh
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that sort of stuff. Uh, so you got the you got the ranchers and their children getting to the site first. You got the
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archaeologists who were the first ones at the site.
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You got Dan Dwire and Lee Ree. And like I said, we never did find Lee Reeves who was his crew chief.
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And um then the military showed up. Yes.
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Okay. So from there, three crash sites, military, do they get to all three crash sites around the same
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time? And you know, do they spend days there? Like what's the timeline as far as collecting all the evidence up before disappearing with it?
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All right. Good question. Good qu.
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See, uh the first uh person to the first site was the rancher M. Brazle.
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Yeah.
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He was a sheep rancher and during the night of the previous night there was a tremendous thunder and
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lightning storm and he said uh he told his son who told us cuz we we were never able to
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interview M. Brazzle cuz he died in 1963.
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Okay. George Wilcox died. The sheriff died in 1961.
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Uh the base commander at Roswell, William Blancher, died in 1965 with four stars on his shoulder.
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All those those key witnesses were gone. We never got to interview them.
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So, um the um I forget what your question was.
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What? It was I I remember I remember. Okay.
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See, I get I get off on a tangent and u It's understandable. Yes. There's so much there there.
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So, uh M Brazzle was the first on the scene. He we call it the Brazle debris
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field site on the JB Foster ranch. JB Foster lived in Texas, but M. Brazzle
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was a Fortam Ranch foreman. He went out to check fence and see how his sheep were because it was a big storm the
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25 minutes, 55 seconds
night before and that's when he saw this field full of wreckage. Yeah.
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Little palm because the thing shattered and it was these little palmized pieces of wreckage. one big piece but and he
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went out with D Proctor like I told you about the the deep he went he was D Proctor was over spent he would spend
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summers with Mac and uh so they went out and saw all this stuff his sheep wouldn't cross this field it was it was
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about 300 ft wide by 3/4 of a mile long packed with this wreckage
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okay wow too much wreckage for a balloon.
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Indeed, even a mogul balloon wouldn't do this, you know.
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So, he was the first one out. D Proctor was with him. And we actually never got to interview ourselves, D. Proctor
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because whenever we would show up at Loretta Proctor's house and D was there, he would run out the back door. We never
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did get to him. We got his information from his mother.
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Okay. Loretta. But anyway, uh so that was the first site and uh so that was
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the the crash occurred the the disintegration occurred the evening of July 2nd, 1947.
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We know that from weather reports and that was the only night that week where there was a thunder and lightning storm, July the second.
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So, um, so, uh, a couple days goes by or a couple days go by
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and, uh, it turns into July 6, which is a Sunday.
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Now, this this happens every time I do it. It doesn't ring.
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28 minutes
I swear it every time I do it.
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And um only when I it only rings when I do it, of course.
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Uh July 6 comes around and uh Razle hasn't discovered the bodies yet.
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Okay.
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But he sees the birds of prey circling two and a half miles to the east. So he goes over to check and he sees the little bodies.
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All right.
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Boom. He says, "I'm going I'm going to town." So, he drives 75 miles to uh
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Roswell to the sheriff's office to report the crash and the little bodies and to get somebody out there to clean
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up the his ranch because his sheep will not cross to go to to get to the water
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28 minutes, 53 seconds
because of this strange stuff. So, but he takes with him two boxes of wreckage to show the sheriff.
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And uh so the sheriff, he doesn't believe uh Mac's story at all right away. I mean, he's oh my god, what is this? you know.
29:15
29 minutes, 15 seconds
And uh so uh he tells uh Brazle uh well
29:21
29 minutes, 21 seconds
you know you know Mac uh it sounds like whatever you got out there came from the sky
29:28
29 minutes, 28 seconds
and the sky is the is the uh purview of the air force. So you should really be talking to someone in the air force.
29:40
29 minutes, 40 seconds
Well, just then the phone rings and it's a radio announcer named Frank Joyce for KGFL
29:48
29 minutes, 48 seconds
and he's just trolling around to find if the sheriff has any stuff that has come across his desk that they he might be
29:56
29 minutes, 56 seconds
able to put on the air that might be interesting, you know, for his radio audience. Sure. Yeah. Yes.
30:03
30 minutes, 3 seconds
And Will Cox sees his chance to get Brazil out of his hair. He says, "Oh, yeah. I
30:09
30 minutes, 9 seconds
got somebody here right now. Uh he's got he's got a story you want to listen to.
30:15
30 minutes, 15 seconds
Boy, this is really something. He says something crashed on his ranch here. Let me put him on the phone. So Frank Joyce
30:23
30 minutes, 23 seconds
listens to this story. He doesn't believe him either. He says, "Oh my god." And he said, he tells Brazle the
30:30
30 minutes, 30 seconds
same thing. Well, you know, you should really be talking to someone in the Air Force. So he's using the same story to get rid of him.
30:39
30 minutes, 39 seconds
So, uh, so after they hang up, uh, a sheriff calls the base. Hey, we got somebody
30:47
30 minutes, 47 seconds
here, blah, blah, blah, blah. So, they send out because it sounded like a crash of some sort, you know, a crash.
30:54
30 minutes, 54 seconds
Something came down apparently.
30:58
30 minutes, 58 seconds
And uh, so they send Jesse Marcel out, the base intelligence officer. He he had the duty that day. Now, this is a
31:06
31 minutes, 6 seconds
Sunday, so he had Sunday duty. He was so happy to have Sunday duty. And so, he went out to the uh uh sheriff's office.
31:16
31 minutes, 16 seconds
Okay, George, what do you got for me?
31:19
31 minutes, 19 seconds
So, he shows him this box of uh wreckage. And Jesse can't make heads or tails out of this. He knows that
31:27
31 minutes, 27 seconds
something, but he and he was he knew everything that was in the air because he's the base intelligence officer,
31:34
31 minutes, 34 seconds
right? He knew all what he knew balloons, he knew aircraft. And this wasn't anything like
31:42
31 minutes, 42 seconds
what he was used to. So there one of the things was a piece of what we call memory metal where you wad it up in your hand, let it go, and it just unfurls.
31:51
31 minutes, 51 seconds
And that really freaked him out. He, oh my god, can I can I have take this box to my
31:59
31 minutes, 59 seconds
commanding officer? I want to show him this cuz Brazil came with two boxes. So he gave him one box. Okay.
32:06
32 minutes, 6 seconds
So, uh, Marcel goes to the Blanchard, and I'm sure Blanchard was happy to be
32:14
32 minutes, 14 seconds
bothered on a Sunday, too. So, Blanchard sees this stuff, and he doesn't know what it is either. So, he says, "Get
32:23
32 minutes, 23 seconds
out, follow the rancher out, see what he's got out there, cuz I don't know what it is. something's something's out
32:30
32 minutes, 30 seconds
there perhaps and take somebody with you who you want. So he takes the
32:37
32 minutes, 37 seconds
uh counter intelligence officer Sherid
32:42
32 minutes, 42 seconds
Sherman um Kavat uh if I got a Sherwood Kavat counter intelligence officer who's
32:51
32 minutes, 51 seconds
always looking out for spies. That's that's what he does. He's looking out for enemy spies. That's that's what his
32:58
32 minutes, 58 seconds
role was. Captain I for you know that's terrible. I forget his first name. Sherman Sherwood uh Cavitt.
33:07
33 minutes, 7 seconds
Okay.
33:08
33 minutes, 8 seconds
They they follow the rancher out and they get out there too late in the afternoon. It's getting dark. So they
33:16
33 minutes, 16 seconds
stay in this little cabin called the Hines House which is now gone. I mean, they tore that they that they tore the
33:23
33 minutes, 23 seconds
Hines house out like the two years ago. Everything, you know, they I just can't understand this. This is history. This is history.
33:33
33 minutes, 33 seconds
Yeah. The most famous UFO case of all time. And uh so they stay in the Hines house.
33:39
33 minutes, 39 seconds
They go out to the crash site the next day. Oh my god, what is this stuff? It was so vast
33:46
33 minutes, 46 seconds
and so they didn't know what this stuff was.
33:51
33 minutes, 51 seconds
So, uh, Cavitt was driving a little jeep they call a carry all. So, Marcel says,
33:59
33 minutes, 59 seconds
"Fill up your carry on, get back, take it back to the base." So, he does that.
34:04
34 minutes, 4 seconds
He So, he leaves Marcel out there for the rest of the day to fill up. He Marcel went out in his 1942 baby Buick.
34:16
34 minutes, 16 seconds
And so Marcel Marcel fills up his Buick and at 2 am
34:23
34 minutes, 23 seconds
he's on his way back to the base the next day 2 a.m. So he stops at home to show his wife and son all this stuff.
34:32
34 minutes, 32 seconds
This is how Jesse Marcel Jr. found out about the I-beams with the writing on it and the the other stuff. So that's how
34:41
34 minutes, 41 seconds
he Jesse Jr. knows what all this wreckage looked like because he handled it himself at 2:00 a.m. in the morning.
34:49
34 minutes, 49 seconds
So, uh, Marcel is done. They they tried to piece it together on the kitchen floor and they
34:57
34 minutes, 57 seconds
couldn't do it because it was just they couldn't do it. So, Marshall goes back to the base. Uh, Jesse's Jr. and his
35:05
35 minutes, 5 seconds
mother, they go back to sleep. So in the morning of now now let's see they they
35:13
35 minutes, 13 seconds
went out on Sunday they spent the day out there so it's now Tuesday morning. Wow.
35:20
35 minutes, 20 seconds
The day of the day of the weekly uh meeting of the commanding officer and
35:28
35 minutes, 28 seconds
his uh his reports like the you know all his direct reports. Sure.
35:36
35 minutes, 36 seconds
And the main topic is the crash up at uh
35:45
35 minutes, 45 seconds
uh Brazil's debris field site. But I skipped Monday. I left. See, now I get going on one thread and I
35:53
35 minutes, 53 seconds
the impact site, Vinnie, was discovered on Monday morning. Right. Okay.
36:01
36 minutes, 1 second
Cavitt and uh Sheridan Cavitt, I got his name right now. Sheridan Cavitt and Jesse Marcel are out at the debris field
36:09
36 minutes, 9 seconds
site. The impact site is discovered while they're up there in Corona up at the debrisfield site. The impact site
36:18
36 minutes, 18 seconds
just north of town is discovered the morning of the 7th. It's a Monday morning. And this is where you have the two bodies dead and the one still alive.
36:27
36 minutes, 27 seconds
So, uh, that's when Dan Dwire goes out and so the base becomes aware of the impact
36:36
36 minutes, 36 seconds
site before their Tuesday morning briefing. Sure. Right. Okay.
36:42
36 minutes, 42 seconds
And so by the time of the briefing, they know about the debris field site and the impact site. The uh uh body site, the
36:52
36 minutes, 52 seconds
deeproctor site is sort of between the two. So they're less knowledgeable about that. So that's the um sequence.
37:02
37 minutes, 2 seconds
Crash on the second. Brazzle discovers it on the morning of the 3, but then he
37:08
37 minutes, 8 seconds
skips a couple days until Sunday because it was the Fourth of July weekend. See, it was the Fourth of July
37:15
37 minutes, 15 seconds
weekend. So they had the rodeo and or they had to go all but Brazil had taken a couple pieces of the stuff to the uh
37:23
37 minutes, 23 seconds
rodeo and they I don't know what that is you know you know but nobody knew but he also
37:31
37 minutes, 31 seconds
heard that there was a $3,000 reward by some newspaper for a piece of incontrovertible
37:39
37 minutes, 39 seconds
piece of a a flying saucer. So he also had that in his mind.
37:44
37 minutes, 44 seconds
Oh wow. Anyway, he went to he went to the Roswell on the 7th. On the Sunday the 6th,
37:52
37 minutes, 52 seconds
the impact site is discovered on Monday the 7th. They have a meeting on the ETH where they plan their uh how they're going to handle this.
38:04
38 minutes, 4 seconds
And this is the the morning of the ETH.
38:06
38 minutes, 6 seconds
So, Brazzle, not Brazil, but Blanchard. See, I get I start talking before. So Blanchard
38:15
38 minutes, 15 seconds
calls in Walter H, the base public information officer.
38:20
38 minutes, 20 seconds
I want you to put out a head. I want you to put out a story. And it's the story that they found the in the possession of a flying saucer.
38:31
38 minutes, 31 seconds
Yeah.
38:31
38 minutes, 31 seconds
Now, this is the only thing that Don Schmidt and I really disagree on. I think it was a local fauxpaw, a local uh that Blanchard did this.
38:41
38 minutes, 41 seconds
Okay.
38:42
38 minutes, 42 seconds
Don Don believes it was orchestrated from Washington DC. So we differ on that. I believe that Blanchard put it
38:51
38 minutes, 51 seconds
out because uh once the story got out it they got all upset in Washington. What
38:58
38 minutes, 58 seconds
did you guys do? Now if if they're doing what Washington wanted them to do, they wouldn't be upset. But they were all upset.
39:06
39 minutes, 6 seconds
They said you got to kill this story in the press. They called up General Remy in Fort Worth whose command the eighth
39:13
39 minutes, 13 seconds
air force included the 509th bomb group in Roswell.
39:17
39 minutes, 17 seconds
Okay, you killed the story. Get this story out of and so they were all upset about the story going public. So if they
39:27
39 minutes, 27 seconds
orchestrated this, why would they be upset? They Blancher would have just been following their orders, you know. Of course. Yeah. Yeah, it makes sense.
39:36
39 minutes, 36 seconds
So that's the sequence. The story goes out and uh later that same afternoon of the
39:44
39 minutes, 44 seconds
8th, they hold a press conference in Fort Worth. General Remy
39:50
39 minutes, 50 seconds
u Marcel is there kneeling beside a weather balloon. They put out the weather balloon story the same afternoon
39:59
39 minutes, 59 seconds
that the flying saucer story went out on the on the east coast. let's say east of
40:07
40 minutes, 7 seconds
the Mississippi Roswell was a one one day historian because they carried both
40:13
40 minutes, 13 seconds
the original headline and the retraction on uh Wednesday the 9th but on west of
40:22
40 minutes, 22 seconds
the Mississippi they it was a two-day story. First they had the we captured a flying saucer story and then the next day they had that well it was a weather balloon story.
40:32
40 minutes, 32 seconds
Okay, I see. Right. So that's the sequence.
40:37
40 minutes, 37 seconds
It's very impressive. All of these details is fully understandable why it's probably difficult to recall certain bits. But it indicates that the cleanup
40:46
40 minutes, 46 seconds
by the military happened pretty quickly then. The what? The the cleanup by the the military.
40:53
40 minutes, 53 seconds
Oh yes. Yes. They got right. Yes. The cleanup uh started, as far as I'm concerned, on
41:01
41 minutes, 1 second
the Tuesday the 8th after the uh morning meeting. They started, okay, you guys go up there and you guys go
41:09
41 minutes, 9 seconds
over there. And so it started on the 8th. It finished probably on the 10th, right? Okay.
41:16
41 minutes, 16 seconds
It was probably a oneweek one week uh cleanup because they they had the guys down on their hands and knees. pick up
41:25
41 minutes, 25 seconds
anything that's not natural and put it in a bag. And uh we had uh a number of
41:33
41 minutes, 33 seconds
uh witnesses who were part of the cleanup. And one fellow uh that I interviewed, it was very interesting. He
41:40
41 minutes, 40 seconds
said, "They gave me a burlap bag to pick up anything that was uh part of the wreckage, not an act." He said, "But
41:48
41 minutes, 48 seconds
what I" He said, "What I had to do was when I found the piece, I had to put it all the way down the bottom of the bag because if I just put it, it would just
41:57
41 minutes, 57 seconds
float float there. It wouldn't go down to the bottom of the bag." So, you had all the way down to the bottom. Wow.
42:04
42 minutes, 4 seconds
To actually get it down there. Yeah.
42:07
42 minutes, 7 seconds
That's incredible. So, we also hear that, and I'm guessing it must be around this day between the 8th and the 10th,
42:14
42 minutes, 14 seconds
of a local undertaker and some coffins being ordered. So, could could you fill us in on that?
42:21
42 minutes, 21 seconds
On the I didn't catch that on the Was it between sort of the 8th and the 10th during that cleanup that the local
42:30
42 minutes, 30 seconds
undertaker Well, he was undertaken. No, he um the local undertaker Glenn Dennis.
42:38
42 minutes, 38 seconds
Okay.
42:38
42 minutes, 38 seconds
He uh he came out with uh a story. Part of it we believe the other
42:46
42 minutes, 46 seconds
part we believe he got it from somebody else and adopted it as his own. Ah okay.
42:51
42 minutes, 51 seconds
Part that we believe because we have two witnesses that they're gone now but we interviewed them. They said that Glenn, they
43:00
43 minutes
remember Glenn Dennis telling them about these phone calls that he was receiving
43:06
43 minutes, 6 seconds
from the base asking about how to treat biological material that's been out in the desert for a couple days.
43:15
43 minutes, 15 seconds
Okay.
43:16
43 minutes, 16 seconds
How to how to preserve biological material, i.e. the bodies uh
43:23
43 minutes, 23 seconds
u that have been out in the desert for for a number of days and did uh and and
43:30
43 minutes, 30 seconds
Glenn worked at the Ballard Funeral Home which is still in Roswell.
43:36
43 minutes, 36 seconds
Uh he was an inbalmer back in 1947. He he was an embomber, you know, the And uh
43:45
43 minutes, 45 seconds
he uh they asked him, "Well, do you do you have any childsiz caskets?" Well, we I think we have one, but how
43:53
43 minutes, 53 seconds
many do you need? And they said, "Well, we need a few." Well, no, I only have one, but I can get some more from Amarillo, Texas.
44:01
44 minutes, 1 second
Okay. So, uh, we believe that part of his story because we we interviewed
44:08
44 minutes, 8 seconds
people who remember Glenn telling them about these strange phone calls that he was getting from the base about
44:16
44 minutes, 16 seconds
child-sized caskets uh, and how to how to preserve uh, biological tissue
44:23
44 minutes, 23 seconds
and stuff like that. The part of the story we don't believe of his was he said, "Well, the Ballard Funeral Home,
44:31
44 minutes, 31 seconds
you know, besides more, you know, we uh we had a hearse and we we had the uh
44:37
44 minutes, 37 seconds
hearse contract with a base and uh uh uh I don't know that, you know, when a
44:44
44 minutes, 44 seconds
somebody on the base was injured, they would put them in a hearse and drive them to the hospital." Now, I don't know
44:51
44 minutes, 51 seconds
that's a good idea to somebody who's injured, they're put in a hearse. Uh that's that's not a good good look. So,
45:01
45 minutes, 1 second
so we didn't believe that part of his story, but his part of that story was that the an airman had a uh was injured on a motorcycle in town.
45:11
45 minutes, 11 seconds
So, he drove him to the base in the hearse. And while he was at the base, he says he saw all these strange people
45:20
45 minutes, 20 seconds
walking around that he had never seen there before.
45:24
45 minutes, 24 seconds
And uh one of them and finally there was a woman there, a nurse who he identified as it turned out
45:32
45 minutes, 32 seconds
falsely to us. So when when a witness tells you something that's false and he
45:39
45 minutes, 39 seconds
knows it's false, he's what they call impeached as a witness.
45:45
45 minutes, 45 seconds
Right now in in England, I don't know what they call it, but over here they're impeached, which means you there
45:54
45 minutes, 54 seconds
everything they say has to be invalidated.
45:56
45 minutes, 56 seconds
Okay. So that part of his story turned out to be false because we did find the nur the real nurse.
46:05
46 minutes, 5 seconds
See the the one he named he knew was already dead.
46:09
46 minutes, 9 seconds
He knew this woman he knew that she was already dead and we couldn't interview her and we tracked her down and she died
46:16
46 minutes, 16 seconds
young of a strange illness. And uh but he said that uh they met at this uh at
46:23
46 minutes, 23 seconds
the base hospital that day and she said, "Glenn, you got to get out of here.
46:28
46 minutes, 28 seconds
You'll get in trouble." And he said, "Why?" He said, "Because they're doing an they're trying an autopsy in the in the emergency room and the smell is is
46:37
46 minutes, 37 seconds
making everybody sick." And he said, "Wow." And just then this captain says,
46:44
46 minutes, 44 seconds
"Hey, you. Who are you?" Well, I'm glad you don't belong here. Get out of here and you go back to wherever you came
46:51
46 minutes, 51 seconds
from. So, they they ejected him from the hospital and they had an airman follow him all the way back to the Ballard funeral home to make sure he got there.
47:00
47 minutes
We don't believe that part of his story at all. Okay?
47:03
47 minutes, 3 seconds
Because we did find the real nurse and it wasn't the one he named. And uh but
47:12
47 minutes, 12 seconds
theoretically, legally, we shouldn't accept his phone call story either. But the fact that we have other witnesses
47:21
47 minutes, 21 seconds
who recalled him telling them that story at the time, we do accept that, but not
47:28
47 minutes, 28 seconds
his story about uh meeting the nurse the next day and her drawing what the the bodies looked like and that the smell was. We we just don't buy that.
47:40
47 minutes, 40 seconds
Right. Okay.
47:42
47 minutes, 42 seconds
So, we've got the bodies and the material now all retrieved by the military. What happens next? Because I
47:50
47 minutes, 50 seconds
think we're generally led to believe that it's transported to Right Patterson or right field at the time, right field
47:57
47 minutes, 57 seconds
air force base. Can you break that that sequence of events down for us, please? Yes.
48:03
48 minutes, 3 seconds
Okay. Um the uh press conference took place on the afternoon of July the 8th
48:11
48 minutes, 11 seconds
where General Ramy was kneeling beside a weather balloon.
48:15
48 minutes, 15 seconds
Yeah, it was a weather balloon, folks. Uh and we canled that flight uh that that was going to right right field. We've
48:23
48 minutes, 23 seconds
canceled that flight. Well, he didn't he didn't cancel that flight. The flight continued on to right field. And on the
48:31
48 minutes, 31 seconds
eighth, it was a flight uh piloted by a fellow named uh Oliver Papy Henderson. He was okay.
48:38
48 minutes, 38 seconds
Flew some of the wreckage and at least one of the bodies to right field from Roswell on the ETH.
48:46
48 minutes, 46 seconds
Uh he took off before before the uh press conference, so he was already in the air.
48:54
48 minutes, 54 seconds
And um uh so uh that that was a lie on the part of uh General Ramy. And also uh another
49:04
49 minutes, 4 seconds
flight that day was in a B-29 called Dave's Dream.
49:10
49 minutes, 10 seconds
The which was the second most uh what am I saying? Famous B29 on the base. The
49:17
49 minutes, 17 seconds
the most famous B29 on the base was the Inola Gay, of course, which ended World War II. Indeed. Yes.
49:25
49 minutes, 25 seconds
Uh and this I guess the second most uh uh famous was the that called Box Car which
49:35
49 minutes, 35 seconds
dropped the bomb on um Nagasaki, the second the second one.
49:40
49 minutes, 40 seconds
So Day's Dream would be the third most famous, right? Uh, and so that that flight
49:48
49 minutes, 48 seconds
took a lot of the wreckage from right uh from from Roswell
49:55
49 minutes, 55 seconds
to Fort Worth. Jesse Marcel was on that flight. This is on the afternoon of the ETH. Yeah.
50:02
50 minutes, 2 seconds
Jesse thought he was going to right field, but instead it went to Fort Worth, Texas, where this General Remy
50:10
50 minutes, 10 seconds
was in the Eighth Air Force. and uh he had Marcel pose in front of the weather balloon and all that sort of stuff for
50:19
50 minutes, 19 seconds
the for the weather balloon press conference. So the other flight does go to right field
50:25
50 minutes, 25 seconds
and we had a witness uh General Arthur Exxon who at the time in 47 was a
50:32
50 minutes, 32 seconds
student at the base right field on because ultimately he became the commanding
50:40
50 minutes, 40 seconds
officer of Wright Patterson Air Force Base in the mid60s but he was learning with other military officers how to
50:50
50 minutes, 50 seconds
administer bases, how to administer uh military bases, facilities, and he
50:58
50 minutes, 58 seconds
told us when we interviewed him that they knew within 20 minutes at right
51:06
51 minutes, 6 seconds
field what they had. So it was no soon as they got they said they knew within 20 minutes what they had and it wasn't a
51:13
51 minutes, 13 seconds
weather balloon. So we got that from General Arthur Exxon at the time in 47.
51:19
51 minutes, 19 seconds
He was a lieutenant colonel, former fighter pilot in World War II.
51:25
51 minutes, 25 seconds
So, uh that that's what uh so that was all on the ETH. Marcel goes to Fort Worth.
51:33
51 minutes, 33 seconds
He thinks he's gone to right field, but he winds up posing in Rey's office uh
51:39
51 minutes, 39 seconds
for the weather balloon. And uh he comes back to Roswell on the 9th. And this is very interesting because you have at
51:47
51 minutes, 47 seconds
least two more bodies to dispose of. They're still in in Roswell.
51:55
51 minutes, 55 seconds
Happy Henderson took one or two, but on the 9th, you still have the other bodies. They're stinking up the place.
52:05
52 minutes, 5 seconds
And uh they're loaded into a another B29 called the Straight Flush.
52:12
52 minutes, 12 seconds
Okay. And uh so this flight goes again to to Fort Worth.
52:22
52 minutes, 22 seconds
This flight goes to Fort Worth. 55minute flight from Roswell to Fort Worth. The two bodies.
52:30
52 minutes, 30 seconds
And uh as the flight is landing in Fort Worth, one of the uh officers on the flight, fellow by the name of Felix
52:38
52 minutes, 38 seconds
Marti, says, "Hey, there's so and so. I know that fell waiting for us on the tarmac.
52:45
52 minutes, 45 seconds
He's a mortician.
52:48
52 minutes, 48 seconds
An undertaker. Now, what would an undertaker be waiting for the flight for? Sure.
52:55
52 minutes, 55 seconds
So, oh, I know that guy. And and so the pilot says, "Shut up. Shut up." They didn't tell the officers knew, but the
53:05
53 minutes, 5 seconds
enlisted men on the flight did not know what was going. did. They knew something was going on back at the base, but they weren't sure.
53:15
53 minutes, 15 seconds
So, uh, the flight lands and the mortician comes out with the the the other officers. They take the this big
53:23
53 minutes, 23 seconds
crate 4 foot by 5 foot by 16 foot. There was at least two bodies in there, maybe
53:30
53 minutes, 30 seconds
three. And they cart that off to the base. And uh the the enlisted men are
53:38
53 minutes, 38 seconds
not permitted to go they were not permitted to leave the plane. Boy, you know, you nice to be an enlisted man. You're you know, you're a dope, right?
53:48
53 minutes, 48 seconds
So So the officers come back and they take off for the return flight to uh
53:55
53 minutes, 55 seconds
Roswell. So just as the plane lifts off, here's Felix Marti again. He he shouts
54:03
54 minutes, 3 seconds
out, "Boys, we just made history." Shut up, Felix.
54:10
54 minutes, 10 seconds
He says, "Boys, we just made history." Wow.
54:14
54 minutes, 14 seconds
So, you know, and and we ne we never were able to interview Marti himself. He
54:21
54 minutes, 21 seconds
always gave us the slip, right?
54:24
54 minutes, 24 seconds
And we never did get to him, but he was always one step ahead of us. But if the if the enlisted men on the flight didn't
54:32
54 minutes, 32 seconds
know beforehand, they certainly knew something was uh really going on. And uh so that flight ended at Fort Worth and they flew back.
54:42
54 minutes, 42 seconds
They took Marcel back with them to Fort to Roswell. So, uh, Marcel meets up with
54:50
54 minutes, 50 seconds
Sheridan Kavitt and he wants to know, uh, did, you know, because Sheridan Kavitt
54:57
54 minutes, 57 seconds
was part of a different command. He was a army counter inelligence officer looking
55:05
55 minutes, 5 seconds
for spies. So, Marcel says, "I want to see your report that you sent off." And, you know, uh, Kavat basically tells
55:14
55 minutes, 14 seconds
Marcel to go pound sand. He says, "Uh, I can't show you that report." He says, Marcel says, "Yes, I can. I outrank
55:22
55 minutes, 22 seconds
you." And he says, "You may outrank me, but you're not an in different command than you are. You want to call Joe over there. You know, you want to call a
55:31
55 minutes, 31 seconds
fellow named uh uh Doyle Reese in Kirtland in Albuquerque." And so Marcel
55:38
55 minutes, 38 seconds
never got to see uh Cavitt's report. And Cavat always maintained to his dying day
55:45
55 minutes, 45 seconds
that what he retrieved was a weather balloon. So uh and I mean it's absolute
55:52
55 minutes, 52 seconds
he maintained the lie to his uh he was a good soldier or a bad soldier.
56:00
56 minutes
It depends how you look at it. Yeah. He played along.
56:03
56 minutes, 3 seconds
So that was the sequence of uh and the one that was still alive was still in Roswell.
56:10
56 minutes, 10 seconds
We don't know how long he was it he we don't know how long it was stayed there but ultimately by the next spring it
56:19
56 minutes, 19 seconds
also turned up at right field. We got that from another witness who saw it and
56:26
56 minutes, 26 seconds
uh so that's the sequence of the crash and what uh happened immediately afterwards.
56:34
56 minutes, 34 seconds
It's incredible. It really is an incredible story. Um, you know, it seems to have died down then for decades before it sort of reemerges.
56:43
56 minutes, 43 seconds
How do you think it stayed so quiet? You know, surely you'd think people would be talking or or were there were there
56:50
56 minutes, 50 seconds
rumors flying around for all those years? That was that's easily explainable.
56:56
56 minutes, 56 seconds
In the military, uh if you're a uh an officer and you aspire to a higher rank, you do what
57:04
57 minutes, 4 seconds
your uh officers above you tell you to do. Yeah. Yeah.
57:09
57 minutes, 9 seconds
Because if you don't, goodbye, next star or next uh next rank. So the the it was
57:16
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easy to uh keep the uh military uh career military people quiet. Now,
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57 minutes, 25 seconds
what about the military people who didn't didn't make it a career but uh you know got out uh after four years or so whatever.
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57 minutes, 35 seconds
Yeah.
57:35
57 minutes, 35 seconds
Their feeling that that we got from them because not everyone you know half of them or more wouldn't talk to us. And
57:43
57 minutes, 43 seconds
what it was was they were um if they were 20 if they were if they got out after 20 years they all had a pension.
57:52
57 minutes, 52 seconds
They had a military pension. They didn't want to take a chance on upsetting their
57:59
57 minutes, 59 seconds
military pension. So, they I'm sorry, I I have a pension and um uh even if they
58:07
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just had a government job, maybe not a pension, but if they had a government job, they felt vulnerable. Sure.
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58 minutes, 14 seconds
Those are the ones they could also control.
58:18
58 minutes, 18 seconds
And the the ones who were not career uh people who who stayed in 20 years or had a pension had just normal jobs.
58:29
58 minutes, 29 seconds
Uh they had struck uh fear into them that uh we will get you we will get you.
58:37
58 minutes, 37 seconds
So it was fear and also fear of loss of uh your pension or your your government job.
58:47
58 minutes, 47 seconds
So what was the spark that brought the story to the attention of say UFO researchers? How did it rematerialize 30 plus years after it occurred?
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58 minutes, 58 seconds
Well uh you know like I said the um after the first book it was a hiatus of 10 years.
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Sure. Uh uh uh but even even prior to that first book
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59 minutes, 14 seconds
though, how did how did it come out? Who came out first?
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59 minutes, 19 seconds
Well, Stanton Freriedman uh interviewed uh Marcel right
59:27
59 minutes, 27 seconds
now. He knew a fellow named William Moore. William Moore had just had a uh goodselling book. I don't know if it was
59:35
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a bestseller, but it was called The Philadelphia Experiment. Okay. Yeah.
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That he had just published that uh talked about this uh ship during World War II that had disappeared and
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reappeared. And so he that was a good selling book.
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So that was the idea that that Stanton probably had in his mind and certainly William Moore because Moore was certainly after the first book did so
1:00:03
1 hour, 3 seconds
well. He was looking for another another title. Okay.
1:00:07
1 hour, 7 seconds
And uh Charles Beritz now this is why did they not include Stan Freriedman on
1:00:14
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as the author and in in lia and put this fellow with Charles Burles? What did he have to do?
1:00:21
1 hour, 21 seconds
He was a language guy. Well, turned out that Charles Burlet also had a best-selling book on the Bermuda
1:00:29
1 hour, 29 seconds
Triangle just just like uh William Moore with the Philadelphia experiment. The Bermuda
1:00:37
1 hour, 37 seconds
Triangle book from Beritz was a big seller. Yeah.
1:00:42
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So they said we got to have a a name. So they substituted Beritz for Stanton Freriedman.
1:00:51
1 hour, 51 seconds
So 10 years go by and that was that was it. But like I said, uh if it wasn't for
1:00:59
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Randall and Schmidt, at least in my opinion, uh and that book that book of theirs, UFO Crash at Roswell, I I think I have
1:01:08
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it right here somewhere. I do. UFO Crash at Roswell.
1:01:17
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It was a paperback.
1:01:19
1 hour, 1 minute, 19 seconds
Amazing. I believe that was u a an important uh book because uh they
1:01:27
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they had footnotes copious footnotes uh many witnesses that the first book
1:01:35
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didn't have and it sort of reignited I don't know if what the timing was it was 1991
1:01:45
1 hour, 1 minute, 45 seconds
but it just it it just it just did so well on a case that that that kindled
1:01:52
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people's uh interest like it did me 10 years prior. Only this book was light
1:01:59
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years ahead of the first one because things were they named name names and they had footnotes and they had a bibliography and just all everything was supported.
1:02:10
1 hour, 2 minutes, 10 seconds
And this is what and uh you know when when Don Schmidt and I uh after the 50th
1:02:18
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anniversary year of 1997, that's when most of the Roswell books were written in 1997.
1:02:26
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Okay.
1:02:27
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50th anniversary. And CNN covered the covered the event down in Roswell. Just made it a worldwide phenomenon.
1:02:36
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And uh then Most of the re researchers left the field at that point. 1997, it can't get
1:02:45
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any better than this. There's nothing more to learn.
1:02:49
1 hour, 2 minutes, 49 seconds
Both Don Schmidt and I were members of Kufos.
1:02:54
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And one when one uh one meeting day, they had meetings once once or twice a year, I forget.
1:03:01
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We decided then that we wanted to continue a and I underlined the word proactive
1:03:10
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investigation of the Roswell case. We felt this is this is now 1998. This is now 1998.
1:03:19
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We said there's still more to learn out there. And we both agreed on that.
1:03:25
1 hour, 3 minutes, 25 seconds
And so the next month, which would have been May of 1998, we took our first trip as a
1:03:33
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team, Don Schmidt and myself, cuz Kevin had left the team in 1995. Okay.
1:03:39
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He had left the team in 19 to go out on his own.
1:03:43
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And uh so Don and I felt there was more to learn. And so,
1:03:50
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uh, to give put in some perspective, Don and I wrote 10 books together about Roswell. 10 of them.
1:03:58
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Incredible.
1:03:59
1 hour, 3 minutes, 59 seconds
And, uh, we we wound up with, uh, up to 600 first and secondhand witnesses.
1:04:08
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That included 30 deathbed confessions. Now, Vinnie, how many UFO cases have 30 witnesses, let alone 30 deathbed confessions?
1:04:20
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Zero.
1:04:23
1 hour, 4 minutes, 23 seconds
So, we feel to use a uh a football an American football expression,
1:04:33
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we move the Roswell case from the 50 yard line down to the one yard line. The
1:04:39
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only yard we're missing, Vinnie, is an incontrovertible piece of physical evidence.
1:04:47
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Yeah, we're still on that trail. We are still on that trail.
1:04:52
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That's incredible. It really is. And you know, you mentioned there there were a few individuals who may well have kept
1:04:59
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some of this material as well and it still be in a box in a cupboard somewhere. Who knows?
1:05:06
1 hour, 5 minutes, 6 seconds
We know who they are. I'm not telling you. I'm not telling you. I know three of I know three of them.
1:05:14
1 hour, 5 minutes, 14 seconds
The names of three of Did you Did you try and get to it? I'm sorry.
1:05:21
1 hour, 5 minutes, 21 seconds
Did you try and get to the material? Did you knock on their doors? And uh the one I interviewed on the phone
1:05:31
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and I believe he certainly he I believe he lied to me.
1:05:35
1 hour, 5 minutes, 35 seconds
All right. Okay. And oh, I know he did, but I I know he has a piece that his father gave to him.
1:05:45
1 hour, 5 minutes, 45 seconds
And it was in a locked metal box in a locked closet with the rest of his memorabilia.
1:05:54
1 hour, 5 minutes, 54 seconds
What else would you have there? And he never told his family until until his deathbed. He never told the family about
1:06:02
1 hour, 6 minutes, 2 seconds
it until his deathbed. He said, "Son, in our house, even your mother doesn't know this,
1:06:11
1 hour, 6 minutes, 11 seconds
there's a locked closet where I have all my memorabilia." Now, in that locked closet, there's a locked metal box.
1:06:22
1 hour, 6 minutes, 22 seconds
I'll tell you where the key is, and I'm not going to tell you what's in there.
1:06:27
1 hour, 6 minutes, 27 seconds
Now, what what could be that? What could be that uh item in that locked metal box in that
1:06:35
1 hour, 6 minutes, 35 seconds
locked closet with the rest of his memorabilia? And we know he was at Roswell. We know he was at Roswell. I
1:06:43
1 hour, 6 minutes, 43 seconds
tried to interview him like 25 30 years ago and he just I have nothing to say. I have nothing to say.
1:06:52
1 hour, 6 minutes, 52 seconds
But on his deathbed, he did have something to say.
1:06:56
1 hour, 6 minutes, 56 seconds
Uh the other the other we know I've met and Don has met and we're not done with him. He's lied to us several times. We but we know better.
1:07:09
1 hour, 7 minutes, 9 seconds
And there is one more who's um uh has got a piece. So, uh I don't know
1:07:18
1 hour, 7 minutes, 18 seconds
what what we're we're trying to use the um the the the plea that none of us are getting any younger.
1:07:27
1 hour, 7 minutes, 27 seconds
Yeah. None of us are getting any younger.
1:07:29
1 hour, 7 minutes, 29 seconds
Please just just so when we check out we know that we we did the right thing. Can you please at least let us look at it?
1:07:38
1 hour, 7 minutes, 38 seconds
Yeah. Wow. That's incredible. An amazing truly amazing story.
1:07:44
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And and that's the thing, you know, I'm so impressed by your recollection of the story, the people involved, the just the
1:07:52
1 hour, 7 minutes, 52 seconds
intricacy and depth to it. It's it's like no other case. It really is. It's incredible.
1:07:59
1 hour, 7 minutes, 59 seconds
Well, this I started this is my 35th year on the case and uh when I ever when I have to check
1:08:07
1 hour, 8 minutes, 7 seconds
one of our earlier books, I said, "Oh my god, did I write that?" because uh oh you know what you know for
1:08:16
1 hour, 8 minutes, 16 seconds
this interview this is all off the top of my head you know and sometimes I have have to refresh a name like Sheridan calf and I couldn't
1:08:25
1 hour, 8 minutes, 25 seconds
remember what his first but it is it was Sheridan and he was from West Texas there we go amazing
1:08:33
1 hour, 8 minutes, 33 seconds
he took it with he took it with them to his grave but others they just wouldn't I said they say and we telling me we we
1:08:42
1 hour, 8 minutes, 42 seconds
we say the case is it it's no longer secret. The case is out there. Yeah.
1:08:47
1 hour, 8 minutes, 47 seconds
And people are talking about it. Well, I'm not it's not going to be one of me and uh I'm just not going to chance it.
1:08:56
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Such a shame. They're all gone now.
1:09:01
1 hour, 9 minutes, 1 second
Yeah, that's the that's a big issue, of course. But here's a question for you, Tom.
1:09:07
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If you had to choose one piece of the story that would keep you up at night or one witness that you were really close to getting to but didn't
1:09:16
1 hour, 9 minutes, 16 seconds
quite get there, what would that one thing be that you wish had happened during your investigations?
1:09:24
1 hour, 9 minutes, 24 seconds
Wow, that's a that's a good one. Uh cuz the best witness we we finally did get to him.
1:09:32
1 hour, 9 minutes, 32 seconds
Uh it it would be it would have to be the the witnesses that uh
1:09:39
1 hour, 9 minutes, 39 seconds
you know what really what happened was that whenever we uh would would get a witness that said, "Oh, you don't want to talk to me. You you want to talk to
1:09:48
1 hour, 9 minutes, 48 seconds
Sam over there. He's the one that knows everything." And you know, and you said, "Oh boy, this is this is really going to be it. Sam's going to tell me
1:09:55
1 hour, 9 minutes, 55 seconds
everything." And Sam didn't know anything. Of course.
1:10:00
1 hour, 10 minutes
Yeah. But it would be some of the people we strongly suspected had a piece, right?
1:10:08
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That would justn't uh wouldn't come through. Wouldn't come through. And uh
1:10:15
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uh we we are sure of some of those people, but they just they wouldn't do it. And uh the other and the other ones
1:10:23
1 hour, 10 minutes, 23 seconds
were Yes, I had a piece. said, "Wait, it for years it's just sat on our tele our
1:10:29
1 hour, 10 minutes, 29 seconds
TV set. Is it there now?" No, no, we don't know what happened to it. It was always We don't know what happened to it
1:10:38
1 hour, 10 minutes, 38 seconds
because we moved a couple times. Oh, I'm so sick of hearing that story. Yeah.
1:10:43
1 hour, 10 minutes, 43 seconds
Because they would tell me about this piece of records that they had in the family that used to be here and it used to be there and well, can I see it?
1:10:51
1 hour, 10 minutes, 51 seconds
Well, well, we don't know what happened to it. and uh frustrating.
1:11:00
1 hour, 11 minutes
Yeah, there's there's so I can't narrow it down to one, Vinnie, because there's there's so many. Uh the thing was one
1:11:09
1 hour, 11 minutes, 9 seconds
success would make up for 10 disappointments. We we you know, we hit 10 roadblocks or 10
1:11:16
1 hour, 11 minutes, 16 seconds
people didn't know and then we'd hit one that was good for all the 10 that didn't come through. Yeah.
1:11:24
1 hour, 11 minutes, 24 seconds
to keep us going. Yes, indeed. I But I suppose like you said, having that or finding a physical piece
1:11:32
1 hour, 11 minutes, 32 seconds
of evidence would just elevate the case stratospherically even further than it is already.
1:11:39
1 hour, 11 minutes, 39 seconds
If that happens, if if somebody comes through with a piece, and that's not to include the all of the ranchers that got
1:11:46
1 hour, 11 minutes, 46 seconds
out there that we know normally pocketed a piece. Yeah.
1:11:52
1 hour, 11 minutes, 52 seconds
because we're thinking what what what could be the I mean I mean it's now almost 80 years ago that and nothing is
1:12:01
1 hour, 12 minutes, 1 second
nobody has had any repercussions that we know of right what what what is keeping you back?
1:12:07
1 hour, 12 minutes, 7 seconds
Well, I'm I'm just I just One fell said, "Well, I'm retired. I like being retired. I
1:12:15
1 hour, 12 minutes, 15 seconds
don't receive any phone calls at night and I like it the way it is. So, I'm not going to tell you anything. Right.
1:12:23
1 hour, 12 minutes, 23 seconds
That was that was one witness who knew a lot and he wouldn't tell us anything.
1:12:28
1 hour, 12 minutes, 28 seconds
So, that's that sort of stuff.
1:12:31
1 hour, 12 minutes, 31 seconds
Maybe you just have to hope that they will let their children know and who knows in the future maybe, you know, a
1:12:38
1 hour, 12 minutes, 38 seconds
child of someone who had a piece may decide to come forward with it.
1:12:43
1 hour, 12 minutes, 43 seconds
For instance, I'll give you a for instance, and this happened a couple times.
1:12:48
1 hour, 12 minutes, 48 seconds
uh that when when you're in uh you know say kindergarten or first grade or
1:12:55
1 hour, 12 minutes, 55 seconds
something like that, one day a week you would have something like showand tell day and you're like six, seven, eight, nine years old.
1:13:04
1 hour, 13 minutes, 4 seconds
We had a couple uh witnesses who were six, seven, eight, nine years old and
1:13:11
1 hour, 13 minutes, 11 seconds
their father gave them a piece of take this in and show this. And we had a couple of those.
1:13:18
1 hour, 13 minutes, 18 seconds
I took this in and uh showed it around.
1:13:22
1 hour, 13 minutes, 22 seconds
Even the teacher didn't know what it was, you know.
1:13:26
1 hour, 13 minutes, 26 seconds
I said, "Do you still have it?" "Well, no. I I I I gave it back to my father and I I don't know where. I don't know what he did with it, does he?" Wow. My goodness me.
1:13:36
1 hour, 13 minutes, 36 seconds
I got a number of those. Number of those.
1:13:40
1 hour, 13 minutes, 40 seconds
Unbelievable. Wow. Wow. We had another fellow who uh Don and I were down in Roswell uh
1:13:49
1 hour, 13 minutes, 49 seconds
for the festival where we both give talks and we sell our books. So we're at our table and this fell comes by. He's
1:13:58
1 hour, 13 minutes, 58 seconds
with his son who's like 16 years old. He says, "Hi, I'm just new in town. I'm a I'm a doctor. I work at such and such a
1:14:06
1 hour, 14 minutes, 6 seconds
place." And we're going, "Oh my god, that's the place where Dr. so and so whose father was a doctor that was
1:14:14
1 hour, 14 minutes, 14 seconds
called out to Roswell and I interviewed the the doctor's son who knew the whole story but he claimed
1:14:22
1 hour, 14 minutes, 22 seconds
he didn't think my god this guy works with him so we told this fellow when you go back to work see if you can get Dr.
1:14:32
1 hour, 14 minutes, 32 seconds
so and so to talk about Roswell and what his father told him. Okay. Okay. And and
1:14:40
1 hour, 14 minutes, 40 seconds
so a week goes by, month goes by, nothing. So I called the fellow up. He
1:14:47
1 hour, 14 minutes, 47 seconds
says, "I don't know what you're talking about. I was never I never met you. I was never at the museum. Do you have a
1:14:55
1 hour, 14 minutes, 55 seconds
16-year-old son?" "Yes." "Well, you were with your son." "No, I wasn't. I was never there." This was a medical doctor.
1:15:03
1 hour, 15 minutes, 3 seconds
Wow. Just like that.
1:15:06
1 hour, 15 minutes, 6 seconds
So I said, "Okay, if that's the story you're going with, nothing I can do about it." Of course. Wow. Frustrating again. Oh my goodness.
1:15:17
1 hour, 15 minutes, 17 seconds
It uh it is amazing. It's an amazing story and it's amazing what some people have react how some people have reacted.
1:15:28
1 hour, 15 minutes, 28 seconds
Yeah, absolutely. Like I said, we have up to 600 first and second hand witnesses with up to 30 death beds.
1:15:39
1 hour, 15 minutes, 39 seconds
So unbelievable. Well, Tom, listen, it's been an absolute honor to speak with you. Thank you so much for joining me
1:15:48
1 hour, 15 minutes, 48 seconds
today and and telling your story and thank you for the incredible work that you've done that have paved the way for so many other researchers. So yeah, thank you so much.
1:15:56
1 hour, 15 minutes, 56 seconds
It's been my pleasure, Vinnie. Um, I'm glad I saw your uh your uh post. So,
1:16:04
1 hour, 16 minutes, 4 seconds
have a great great day and nice being with you. Thank you so much.