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Oh yes, people. We're back after uh a little bit of technical difficulties. Uh
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we have now a very decent connection and uh I'm very hopeful we can have a great podcast. Welcome sir. Welcome Nick Pope.
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Thank you for being here and putting up with all this technical uh stuff. Um
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[laughter]
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thank you.
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It took a while. Yeah, I must confess to you you guys know, but for the listeners, I must confess it was my
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fault uh that I did not have Chrome installed on this MacBook Air. And as we're using StreamYard, I'm like, it's not supported. And I'm like, what?
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[laughter]
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Hey, we appreciate you actually taking the time to go behind the scenes, figure it out, and jump back on with us. It's so appreciated. We we really cannot be
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more grateful. So, thank you. Well, I see people jumping on as we speak by the by the dozen. So, I'm uh I'm extremely
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happy we have such a uh great audience, you know, and very faithful.
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Absolutely, they are. So, Nick, how about we just jump on um and go straight into a little bit about your background for for the probably the few that don't
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know about it because I think the majority probably do.
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Certainly. Well, I was a civilian employee with the UK Ministry of Defense. That's something I did for 21
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years. And obviously you get posted every few years to a different position.
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And from 91 through to 94 I was posted to a division called Secretariat Air
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Staff where my duties were essentially to research and investigate the UFO phenomenon to assess the defense implications for the United Kingdom.
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Yes. Wow. That's great. Um, I think we were just talking behind the scenes. Go on.
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Sir, sir, how did how did you uh get to that job? What was your background?
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I I got to it quite by chance. There there was no um it it simply when you're
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due for a move in the Ministry of Defense, you simply sit down with the personnel department. They tell you what
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jobs, what positions are available at your grade.
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and uh you you maybe if you're lucky back in those days get a choice of three and and it's kind of it's a little bit
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like I think it's like one of those card tricks that they tell you that you've got a choice but in reality uh they one
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of the jobs is always so horrendous you wouldn't want to to go anywhere near it and you do anything to escape from it.
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So then you gratefully take their suggestion and they they say, "Look, this one's coming up." And as it happened, I knew the guy who would be my
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manager because I had been seconed into the Air Force operations room during the first Gulf War to do some watchkeeping
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duties. And he was he was the particular manager who had the vacancy. So, so I was actually just joining from one part
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of of a section to another. Still had to go through the personnel department, but yeah, I had no knowledge about the UFO
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phenomenon, no beliefs either way. It was simply a question of the vacancy was there. I was due for the move. As I say,
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I happened to know the manager anyway, and it all worked out.
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That's great. And what were your kind of views on the whole UFO subject before you got the job? Was it something you
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were very aware of or really didn't have any interest in?
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No, I I really didn't have an interest in it. I I'm not sure. I I'd never read a single UFO book. Right.
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Um I think the closest I had come was reading the old Charles Berlett's book on the Bermuda Triangle when I was a
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kid. Yeah, they had one chapter I think on UFOs and but I it didn't make a particular
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impression on me. I just slotted it away somewhere. So I I really I'd never heard of Roswell. I'd never heard of
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Rendlessham Forest. Um you I'd never heard of Highneck or Rapel. So I I I
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went into the job really with with an open mind and a blank sheet of paper and and thought, well, I will do this for 3
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years and I'll I'll see what I can figure out.
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That's great. And maybe it's quite a good thing that you went in as a kind of neutral because then you've got no preconceived ideas or notions of of what to expect or what you know.
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What did your predecessors What did your predecessors uh was there something they left behind? some archival footage uh uh documents or something like that.
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Oh, absolutely. We we had an archive dating back to the Second World War and that was one of one of the things that I
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when I was new in this post, one of the first things that I did is every time I had a little bit of spare time, I would
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pull out a file. I I would read it. I would make some notes. I would try and read back in. But just to contextualize
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that, I mean, the British government fairly recently declassified and released a whole bunch of of UFO case
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files, many of which I wrote and I came out of retirement to help with that process. But to to give you an idea of
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how much material there is, we we've released about 60,000 pages. So,
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and and when I was doing when I was posted there in '91, of course, some of the mo more recent material didn't yet exist, but there were still tens of
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thousands of pages to go through. So, so it was a big job. So, yes, I had an archive and and many many different people had done that job over the years.
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As I say, we'd had UFO reports going back to the Second World War, but it wasn't until it was 1953
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that we actually set up a formally constituted program. Um, so we had a lot we had a lot.
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No, that's great. Um, just quickly before we start jumping into a case, would you be able to just quickly give your opinion on I think
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only a couple of weeks ago we saw I think it was the House of Lords, there was a discussion about the UAP topic and they in [snorts] my opinion just kind of
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poo pooed it as that there's nothing there. There's no national security threat. Did you see that discussion and and if you have any views on it?
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I saw that discussion. Yes. Frankly, it was disgraceful. And as as a as a fun fact,
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had I still been doing the UFO job, I would have been the one as the subject matter expert drafting that statement
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that Baroness Goldie gave in the House of Lords. And then my job would have been to to then anticipate all the
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follow-up questions that might have been asked and draw up for her defensive Q&A
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material. So you key points that we would have wanted to get across and um
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you know defensive lines to take if difficult questions were raised. So, so yeah, I I saw it as I say it was
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disgraceful because frankly it was like we're not interested in the data. We're not We've glanced at probably we've
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glanced at the ninepage unclassified summary that Office of Director of National Intelligence have just sent to
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Congress. But there was no indication that the Ministry of Defense had for example read any of the classified
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briefing material that some people in the US Congress have had. And if they haven't read the classified material,
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how can they take a decision saying we're not going to re-engage on this because it's a decision based on an incomplete picture.
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Yeah. No, of course that's bizarre. Um, so I think as I I might kind of briefly
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explain to you earlier on this channel, we're kind of trying to bring out more European cases to to the general public because I think the the emphasis has
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really been on the US a lot, especially recently in the last 6 months with the UAPF preliminary assessment. So I think
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the the first UK case that we need to talk about is Rendlesome Forest, the kind of UK Roswell as it's kind of been
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coined. So, are you able to just give us a brief uh description of what happened and then we can sort of go from there?
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I'll I'll try, but of course I've written I've written a book on this which comes to 100,000 words. So, but
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let me let me Okay, I'll give you the edited version. Sure.
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Uh over a series of three consecutive nights in December 1980, there was UFO
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activity at the twin bases of Bentwaters and Woodbridge. These were United States Air Force bases on British soil uh in in the county of Suffukk.
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And on the first night something actually landed briefly and subsequently what what makes
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this case so important is the evidence physical evidence. Um, this was assessed as weighing several tons because the the
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the forest, Rendlesham forest, which lies between the two military bases.
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The ground was hard and frozen because it was winter.
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Yeah. But this this object was estimated to have weighed several tons. There were burn marks and scorch marks on the sides
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of the trees. This came down in a small clearing. and radioactivity levels that the Ministry of Defense's scientific and
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technical experts said seemed significantly higher than the average background. And all this, people don't
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have to take my word for it. It's all in the declassified MOD file. Um the the UFO was briefly tracked on radar. There were dozens of military witnesses.
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activity continued on the second night, although there wasn't another landing.
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And on the third night, when it came back, the skeptical deputy base commander, Lieutenant Colonel Charles
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Halt, was dragged out of an awards ceremony and he said, "Right, I'm going," he was told that the UFO had
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returned. He said, "I'm going to debunk this nonsense." And he ended up he [snorts] he ended up a witness himself
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seeing this thing in the sky performing extraordinary speeds and maneuvers and accelerations. And at one point it fired
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a narrow beam of light down at the ground in front of him and his men. And in later years he asked himself the
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question, was it a weapon? Was it a warning? Was it communication? What was it? He still doesn't know. No, of course.
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Yeah, I understand. I understand. A couple of uh of soldiers actually approached the vehicle and even touched it.
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I Yeah, I Green Street.
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Yes, I I spoke about that with uh Steven Greenreet at the New York Post in our series, The Basement Office. There are
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two episodes on Rendlessham uh worth a look. Uh, all 100% free.
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And we'll link it below.
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Oh, great. And and the other thing is I mentioned earlier that I'd written a book on this. Well, I I co-wrote it with
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those two military guys, John Burrows and Jim Penn. And the book is called
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Encounter in Rendlessham Forest. And uh they were the two that got up close and personal to this on the first night.
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Yeah. Yeah. And um well there was a very interesting story because the man was actually telling when he touched it um
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something happened to him and it was uh correct me if I'm wrong Nick please. um that when
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[clears throat]
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uh in the the days after this encounter um he started to write down uh uh dots and zeros on on in notebooks and
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eventually eventually even um uh years later gave it to some IT guy and it turned out to be a binary code.
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That's right. Yes. This was Jim Penniston and as you say he after the encounter he wrote these ones and zeros
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down in in a notebook and really he forgot about it until 2010.
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Wow. when and and the other thing that he'd written in that notebook that people were quite interested in were symbols that he had seen on the side of
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the craft and somebody I think it was Linda Molton how actually was when Jim
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was getting ready for a a TV interview Linda was looking over his shoulder at the book and said what's that and Jim
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looked very embarrassed and he's like oh Linda pushed the point and and and the story came out and then as you say this
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was then later given to a computer programmer called Nick Cisk who uh recognized of course that it was binary
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code. Jim Jim didn't have a clue. He just wasn't interested in such things or knowledgeable about them.
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Then he did a translation uh which came out with this bizarre and surreal message. We don't know where the message
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comes from. Some people say extraterrestrials, some people say time travelers, other people say that this was an implanted memory. Colonel Halt
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has gone on the record and said that people like Jim were aggressively debriefed by Air Force Office of Special
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Investigations afterwards using drugs and hypnosis. So, we don't really know what might have been implanted in their
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minds and why. But you know there's a an odd thing happened years later. Um a scientist called
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Ronald Mallet who's one of the few scientists doing research into time travel said and and this was way after
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this business with the notebook came out. So so the scientist said this long after Jim had handed over the notebook. He said,
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Ronald Mallet said, "If ever you wanted to send a message through time, you would do it with subatomic particles
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that have spin that can be either up or down." And and then he said the up or down would represent either one or zero.
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And you could send a binary message through time. Wow. Wow.
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That's mind-blowing. there's been a few other witnesses, let's say, and and a few
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controversies surrounding the the topic as well. Um, are you able to speak on uh Larry Warren at all, because I know
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that's a subject that is still contested, let's say, sadly the and and Larry Warren for many years
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worked with with Peter Robbins, very very nice guy in the US. Um, but
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unfortunately Larry Warren's story just turned out to be completely made up, right?
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And andor stolen from some of the other genuine witnesses. And to to kind of show you
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that that's not just he said she said situation.
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Not only did Peter Robbins, who had been Larry Warren's co-author, sort of dissolve the partnership, but the
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publisher actually withdrew the book.
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Wow. And you've got to figure you've got to figure in the UFO field frankly how low the evidence bar is set and how much
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nonsense there is out there. So for a publisher to actually say you know what this we're pulling the book tells you
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that that yeah it it was just completely fabricated. So unfortunately
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the that led to a lot of confusion and bitterness and things like that and it completely muddied the waters but
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despite some recent attempts to resurrect the story um most of the UFO community know that that's fraudulent right
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can I ask you something Nick um um around this time this was in December 1980 if I'm not mistaken right the the
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Randles case um around around that time just a a little bit of a year before uh there was a similar case in the
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Netherlands called the Sust case and I can't help myself but to compare the two because of the you know the short amount
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of time in between those cases and uh the similarity between the cases because uh in Holland if familiar with that case
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this was the case 12 military Dutch uh men um were witnessed to a triangle
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hovering above a uh military air base shared with the Americans and um there were nuclear weapons stored uh over
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there. Now uh can you maybe are you familiar with the case and maybe you can elaborate about that?
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I I'm afraid I'm not but this sounds like a very interesting connection that I with apologies I have obviously
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completely missed. I I think this is one of the problems in the UFO community particularly when language comes into
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play. It's very difficult for for people in the English-speaking world to to sometimes find this information. This is
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why one of my hopes for the future is that as the technology improves in terms
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of uh artificial intelligence, what we're going to be able to do is digitize
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a lot of old paper files. So first step is to put put all the material online
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but then to have really good translation programs and then set AI to work on
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finding these sorts of connections between these cases because I was completely unaware of this and it it sounds like I've I've missed something important.
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Yeah. Oh, sorry. Let me jump. It's an incredible case. Max brought it to my attention. Um, and we both have our separate channels here on YouTube and we
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decided to collaborate to bring all these kind of cases to to the public, you know, as a whole. Um, and we actually spoke to some of the guys that
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were on the base um, in 79. Um, and it really does have so many similarities to the Rendlessham case. So, I think this
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is um, already proving that what we're doing is a is a plus. Nick, I would love to fill you in on this, but we'll do
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that maybe off offline. But it's a very compelling case and it's has so much similarities to the Randerson case and
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it's around the same time and it's a triangle.
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It's a triangle and it was a shared base with the Americans in the Netherlands and there were nuclear weapons. Um and
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presumably uh there was they were made uh well I'm not I have to watch out about this because
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[snorts]
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uh a lot of people have passed away since then who were actually uh witnesses but uh the witnesses we've
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talked to um uh um uh captain or corporal uh Robansa they they were
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witness to that and it was a lot of people who were witness to that about 12 Dutch military men and uh there was actually right after that incident
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a radio documentary of the of a Dutch broadcaster. They went up there and they interviewed all those men and that is online. You can hear the witness
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accounts, right? It sounds absolutely fascinating. It is.
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So, let's jump just back to the Rendlesroom case. And the last piece of controversy that I wanted to personally
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cover is um the SAS hoax theory. Let's say Nick. um not something I really um
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hold much steed to, but um if you're able to just address that for the people that may not be aware of it, that would be great.
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Sure. Well, actually, there are three separate hoax theories doing the rounds.
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Uh yeah, just to show you that this is a little [laughter] Yeah, this is a little bit of a meme. So, the first hoax theory
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was that a former military cop called Kevin Cond, and there's a clue there, but that is his real name.
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Wow. Um, C O N D E, not C O N E D. Yeah.
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But, um, he claims that one night when he was based at at Bentwaters and
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Woodbridge, the twin bases, Yeah. He claims that he drove his police car out in the forest, turned the siren
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off, but turned the lights on to play a practical joke on the guard force.
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So that's that's practical joke theory or hoax theory number one, right? Um there there is there is no
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evidence that he ever did this, let alone that if he did it, it played a part in in events, of course. Yeah.
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Um Right.
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So, and and of course I' I've mentioned the radar evidence, the radioactivity evidence, so yeah, doesn't really seem
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to add up. The second hoax theory is that a there was a unit based at
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Bentwaters Woodbridge that did of all things, one of their missions was that if an Apollo
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capsule had splashed down in UK territorial waters, they would have flown out with a helicopter and rescued
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the astronauts, right? if if they'd gone off course and like a recovery team.
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Exactly. And they had as part of this, they had a dummy Apollo capsule. And so again, hoax
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theory number two is that they somehow flew this and dropped it into the forest
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and again conned everyone that this was actually a UFO. Not quite sure how they would have hidden the helicopter noise
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and the helicopter, but Exactly. Yeah.
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Exactly. The third theory is that um this was um the SAS playing a
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prank on the US military as a sort of revenge. Every now and then the SAS, one
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of their missions was to test defenses at bases by seeing if they could break in.
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Yeah. uh little bit risky because someone might shoot you, but you hope you hope that the rules of engagement would would hold. Anyway, there's no
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evidence again that this prank ever took place. And if it did, and unfortunately,
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it comes from a a a sort of euphologist with a bit of a track record of trying to write himself into this and write on
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on other people's coattails. It's a classic friend of a friend story, right?
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And as I say, with all three of these alleged hoaxes, there's no evidence that the hoax even [snorts] happened. It's
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just somebody allegedly telling somebody else and telling somebody else. It's not like the Ministry of Defense files where
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all of this is documented and all of the witnesses are on the record and you can go and speak to the the deputy base
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commander and you can look at the the um documents about the radioactivity levels. So yes, there's a little bit of
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controversy, but unfortunately, as I say, these these kind of colorful characters that that kind of exist on
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the fringes of eupfology often try and they see a case like Rendlessham and they they kind of think, "Oh, I'll try
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and write myself into the story." So, so whether it's a a Larry Warren or a, you know, whoever it is with with police
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cars and SAS, it's it's all just wannabes and Yeah. Yeah.
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And I mean, this was covered as well in the 2013 citizen hearing on disclosure.
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And I mean, they really went into detail on things like the the health issues that some of these witnesses have gone through over the years since the incident as well that are are related to
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that. Are you able to explain a little bit on that at all?
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Certainly. Uh this is a very very controversial area of this and to cut a long story
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short um senator or now deceased but the former senator John McCain in the United
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States took an interest in this and one of his senatorial aids Cheryl Bennett
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did a lot of work to try and get hold of the medical files of some of the Rendlessham witnesses who claimed that
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they were they had health issues as a result of of this encounter. And uh Senator John Kyle was involved too.
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um some of the people some of the former Congress congressional representatives and senators at the citizens hearing
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subsequently then wrote to President Obama and um as I mentioned Cheryl Bennett was
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involved in John McCain's office. uh they were told that the medical records were classified and Cheryl I mean Cheryl
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did a lot of work on veterans and she said she'd never seen some of the things
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before that happened on on Rendlessham but fortunately the and and I should
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also do a shout out to Pat Fresconia who was a lawyer who put in hundreds of
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hours of free work proono work for for some of the witnesses to try and get these records to try and get them a settlement from the VA.
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Yeah.
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And in the end, I'm pleased to say it was the British that came to the rescue because
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we some years ago and I was involved in setting this up ran an intelligence assessment of the phenomenon cenamed project condine.
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Right. Yeah. I helped set this up in 1993, though the the study didn't actually
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really get going until years later because of because of, you know, defense cuts and bureaucracy.
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Sure. But hidden away in the final report, which was dated 2000, was a line
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that said, "The well reported um Rendlessham Forest Bentwaters incident
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is an incident where it might be postulated that witnesses were exposed to unidentified aerial phenomena
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radiation." Yeah. For longer time periods than usual.
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Well, this declassified final report was given to the VA and the VA had previously said, "What do you mean UFO
28:11
28 minutes, 11 seconds
incident? We can't give you a medical settlement based on this." And then they were told, "Look, the British intelligence
28:20
28 minutes, 20 seconds
says it's it's UAP radiation and that this is probably what happened to these people." Magically,
28:27
28 minutes, 27 seconds
well, not but instantly the VA settled the case. Right.
28:35
28 minutes, 35 seconds
And this is Project Cond. It's not to be uh confused with the Condon Report and things like that because I think from what I've seen and talked about, people
28:43
28 minutes, 43 seconds
really do just confuse those two names because they sound similar. So, Project Cond is completely different to the Condon Report and things like that. Just just to put it out there.
28:51
28 minutes, 51 seconds
Yes. Although it wouldn't surprise me I didn't select the code name and these code names are supposed to come randomly
28:59
28 minutes, 59 seconds
off computers but I know from from my 21 years in the mod that sometimes something comes randomly off the
29:08
29 minutes, 8 seconds
computer but the person will go I don't like that and they'll pick something different. I would not be surprised if
29:14
29 minutes, 14 seconds
they picked Cond because of the similarity to Condon, right? Yeah. Hey, thank you. I appreciate that.
29:24
29 minutes, 24 seconds
I have a question. I have a question about your investigation for the the British uh armed forces. Um, have you
29:31
29 minutes, 31 seconds
ever stumbled over any photos, footage that [snorts] in particular was very compelling to you? Maybe something you haven't been able to really address?
29:43
29 minutes, 43 seconds
Well, I I think I have addressed this before, but it's worth mentioning two things. Firstly, with the current obsession
29:51
29 minutes, 51 seconds
with those three US Navy videos, right, that everyone's talking about and some some other ones too, but
29:59
29 minutes, 59 seconds
but the ones that have been out since end of 2017, beginning 2018.
30:04
30 minutes, 4 seconds
Yeah. Um, we forget that military pilots have been seeing and chasing and sometimes filming
30:13
30 minutes, 13 seconds
these things for decades. And we had we had some gun camera footage at the MOD dating back dating back to the 50s and
30:21
30 minutes, 21 seconds
60s. I'll be honest with you, it it was it wasn't spectacular. Okay.
30:27
30 minutes, 27 seconds
But and I there it's there. Well, I'm Yeah, I'm not sure it is anymore because [laughter] when we
30:36
30 minutes, 36 seconds
when we declassified and released a lot of this, a lot of the photos and videos had mysteriously disappeared. There was
30:44
30 minutes, 44 seconds
a story that that the legal experts had stepped in and said, "Ah, with a lot of this,
30:53
30 minutes, 53 seconds
particularly if it was sent to us by somebody else, the Ministry of Defense doesn't hold copyright. therefore maybe
31:00
31 minutes
we should destroy it. But I think that was just an excuse. Yeah, sounds like
31:07
31 minutes, 7 seconds
um I mean for those people who followed this closely, whenever there's a sensitive Ministry of
31:14
31 minutes, 14 seconds
Defense document or file or video or photo, it seems to either accidentally
31:21
31 minutes, 21 seconds
get lost or um one time with a Navy sighting,
31:28
31 minutes, 28 seconds
the there was a ship's log that everyone was after and uh The line came back from
31:36
31 minutes, 36 seconds
the Ministry of Defense that it had been blown overboard by a freak gust of wind.
31:41
31 minutes, 41 seconds
[laughter]
31:43
31 minutes, 43 seconds
My dog ate it. That kind.
31:44
31 minutes, 44 seconds
Yeah, my dog ate. Yeah, the Ministry of Defense is almost claiming, you know, the dog ate my homework. And so but but
31:54
31 minutes, 54 seconds
getting back to to the question yeah we had some gun camera footage not very convincing but with modern techniques
32:02
32 minutes, 2 seconds
and particularly I'm talking about mazint measurement and signature intelligence which is a whole discipline
32:10
32 minutes, 10 seconds
which includes looking at a range of um observables electro exactly electroloptical
32:17
32 minutes, 17 seconds
platforms. So, so it includes imagery intelligence, radar intelligence and a whole lot of other things. But you can do a lot.
32:26
32 minutes, 26 seconds
That was actually my next question uh on how you would operate when you would investigate those cases because of course when we talk to Lou Alzando, he
32:34
32 minutes, 34 seconds
has the five observables, right? We have uh uh of course the census uh uh footage
32:41
32 minutes, 41 seconds
uh uh data uh signature um uh DNA RNA um you name it. So what
32:49
32 minutes, 49 seconds
what did you uh work with at the time? I worked with very similar things, but
32:56
32 minutes, 56 seconds
obviously Lou Alzando was doing the work that he did for ATIP many years after I
33:05
33 minutes, 5 seconds
was doing this at the Ministry of Defense. And and so the tools that he had available to him and his
33:14
33 minutes, 14 seconds
colleagues were things that in the early and mid '9s, frankly, we could only dream about. Now, that's not to say we
33:22
33 minutes, 22 seconds
didn't have some very good and impressive resources and capabilities.
33:27
33 minutes, 27 seconds
And in all of this, of course, the most impressive capability of all is our people. And some of the UK intelligence
33:36
33 minutes, 36 seconds
officers in disciplines like imagery analysts, um, imagery analysis are are worldclass truly worldclass people.
33:47
33 minutes, 47 seconds
these men and women are are, you know, have have skill sets that you can't believe. But but there's no getting away from the fact that in the early to mid
33:56
33 minutes, 56 seconds
90s, they the technology just didn't enable them to do the sorts of things that Lou Alzando could could do.
34:07
34 minutes, 7 seconds
Yeah, you must have been a beacon of experience for people like Alzando. Now, my next question is, did maybe Mr.
34:15
34 minutes, 15 seconds
Alzando ever reach out to you for some uh let's say uh information or uh uh some tips on how to in investigate.
34:25
34 minutes, 25 seconds
Yeah.
34:26
34 minutes, 26 seconds
Yeah. No. And and of course that would be very difficult because the work that I did at the Ministry of Defense was an
34:34
34 minutes, 34 seconds
open public facing program. Uh that's not to say that we didn't do classified work too, but we were public knowledge
34:42
34 minutes, 42 seconds
and ATIP of course was not not public facing at all. This was a targeted
34:49
34 minutes, 49 seconds
intelligence program. And not only was it secret from the US media and the public, but of course it was secret from
34:57
34 minutes, 57 seconds
much of the US government, which is why it came as such a shock for people in December 2017. And by people, I even
35:06
35 minutes, 6 seconds
mean people on the intelligence committee in in the US Congress. It came
35:13
35 minutes, 13 seconds
as a shock to them. So So no, Lou and his colleagues did not reach out to me.
35:18
35 minutes, 18 seconds
That's not to say that ATIP weren't aware of the work we did. Clearly they they somehow were able Well, some of the
35:27
35 minutes, 27 seconds
stuff we did was in the public domain through the Freedom of Information Act.
35:30
35 minutes, 30 seconds
Yeah. But it's very clear if you look at some of the ATIP paperwork. For example,
35:37
35 minutes, 37 seconds
if you look at Harry Reid's June 24th, 2009 letter to the deputy um
35:45
35 minutes, 45 seconds
secretary of defense and you you you look at what Harry Reid says about technological spin-offs,
35:54
35 minutes, 54 seconds
signature reduction, uh radio frequency weapons, directed energy weapons, it it clear it duplicates a lot of the material in Project Cond's final report.
36:05
36 minutes, 5 seconds
So, and and even the use of the phrase UAP, I mean, we we didn't invent it, but
36:12
36 minutes, 12 seconds
we certainly deliberately adopted it in the Ministry of Defense in in about 1992, 1993.
36:20
36 minutes, 20 seconds
And the US Navy acknowledged recently they said, "Yeah, we borrowed this from the British
36:27
36 minutes, 27 seconds
government." So um no we didn't have the formal liaison but through various means
36:35
36 minutes, 35 seconds
ATIP was well aware of the work that we've done at the Ministry of Defense.
36:40
36 minutes, 40 seconds
Um and so yeah we had some we had some great or not so great but you could do a lot now videos. We had a great
36:49
36 minutes, 49 seconds
photograph. The best photos we ever had were taken in Scotland in 1990. This was my next question, Calvin.
36:59
36 minutes, 59 seconds
Yes. Well, go ahead. I I've you know, I was just gonna I was my question was going to be um just in fact just prior
37:07
37 minutes, 7 seconds
to that because of the conversation we just had, I was going to just um speak about a conference that Lu Allesando did in 2018. And I think it was for MUN
37:15
37 minutes, 15 seconds
where I believe you were in the audience and he actually said I think this was his first discussion and he actually
37:23
37 minutes, 23 seconds
shouted you out and saying you know I'm not the first person to do this. The first was my predecessor from the UK Mr.
37:29
37 minutes, 29 seconds
Nick Pope. So he immediately coming into the limelight really did acknowledge the work that you've done.
37:36
37 minutes, 36 seconds
Yes. Yes. I I was I was there and of course I I um I met Lou at that conference and yeah he he and we we
37:45
37 minutes, 45 seconds
obviously the night before I you discussed some some
37:52
37 minutes, 52 seconds
you know cases and policy and and there was some differences obviously there was some differences between between ATIP and the work I did and but there was
38:00
38 minutes
some sim similarities too so we were kind of talking the same language but yes he was extremely generous in in uh
38:07
38 minutes, 7 seconds
crediting myself and and my colleagues at the Ministry of Defense and and um yeah, that that was uh that was very generous of him.
38:17
38 minutes, 17 seconds
I thought that was worth mentioning.
38:19
38 minutes, 19 seconds
That's all. I'm just going to nip to uh have a pea break, guys. Sorry.
38:22
38 minutes, 22 seconds
[laughter] The time scale with a mess up has ruined my Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry, Mr.
38:27
38 minutes, 27 seconds
Pope. Like my my kid is running around here. I have to mute myself sometimes.
38:31
38 minutes, 31 seconds
We're just human beings. But um uh my next question was actually uh to elaborate on that a little bit. Um uh my
38:40
38 minutes, 40 seconds
fellow countryman Wilfred Fronetta asked a question I was meaning to ask actually uh talking about uh cooperating with
38:48
38 minutes, 48 seconds
other nations on um you know investigating the you the phenomenon basically. [snorts] Um, I was wondering
38:56
38 minutes, 56 seconds
in your time, um, I know you weren't cooperating really with the Americans because they were so secluded or, uh,
39:03
39 minutes, 3 seconds
closed off as classified, but, uh, were there information, uh, exchanges, for example, between,
39:11
39 minutes, 11 seconds
uh, the the UK and other countries, maybe even adversaries.
39:17
39 minutes, 17 seconds
No, it was very very limited for for two reasons.
39:23
39 minutes, 23 seconds
Firstly, my terms of reference limited me almost constitutionally and legally
39:30
39 minutes, 30 seconds
to investigating cases in the United Kingdom air defense region.
39:39
39 minutes, 39 seconds
Secondly, our whole policy at the MOD was consistently and had been pretty
39:48
39 minutes, 48 seconds
much since the beginning of this program, our policy had always been to downplay the true extent of our interest and involvement in the UFO phenomenon.
40:00
40 minutes
And so had we reached out to other nations, word would have inevitably gotten out, whether it was allies or
40:09
40 minutes, 9 seconds
adversaries, and it would have undermined our own public position,
40:16
40 minutes, 16 seconds
which was also the position that the Secretary of State for Defense had taken in British Parliament that that we only
40:25
40 minutes, 25 seconds
devoted very limited time and resources to this. So there were difficulties.
40:30
40 minutes, 30 seconds
However, every now and then we were able to bend the rules somewhat. So for example,
40:39
40 minutes, 39 seconds
in 1993, we had a very impressive wave of sightings in the UK, generally known as the Cosford incident.
40:49
40 minutes, 49 seconds
That was another question I had. Well, actually involving um um dozens of
40:56
40 minutes, 56 seconds
witnesses over a period of about um 8 hours. No, no, six hours. Pardon me. Pardon me.
41:04
41 minutes, 4 seconds
And because of the similarity between the Kford incident and the
41:12
41 minutes, 12 seconds
Belgian wave of 1990, we reached out to the Belgian authorities.
41:20
41 minutes, 20 seconds
did this uh to Wilfred Debrower uh who who I have met and and discussed
41:28
41 minutes, 28 seconds
this with and the two F16 pilots who were scrambled that night to try and intercept the UFO.
41:38
41 minutes, 38 seconds
But because of these sensitivities that I mention, the fact that we we told Parliament, the media, and the public
41:46
41 minutes, 46 seconds
that that we're not putting too much effort into this, we had to do it very carefully. We had to do it through the
41:53
41 minutes, 53 seconds
British Embassy so that we had a a sort of cutout for this, an [laughter] intermediary.
42:01
42 minutes, 1 second
Yeah. And yeah, they told us, Wilfried Deauer told us, the F-16 pilots told us, yes, this was real. Yes, the Belgians
42:10
42 minutes, 10 seconds
accept assessed this as a real solid structured craft. And [clears throat]
42:18
42 minutes, 18 seconds
there was a kind of whispered postcript to to this. And it was thank goodness
42:27
42 minutes, 27 seconds
this wasn't hostile because if it had been we would not have had a chance against these things. Wow.
42:34
42 minutes, 34 seconds
So so that was interesting. And um the one odd little fact about the Kford
42:42
42 minutes, 42 seconds
incident and and this is probably what made me reach out to the Belgians in the first place. The Cosford incident took
42:51
42 minutes, 51 seconds
place three years to the very night after the Belgian wave.
42:59
42 minutes, 59 seconds
Wow. And I mean, the distance isn't actually that far either. If you go Belgium to the UK, it really isn't that.
43:05
43 minutes, 5 seconds
And and at the sorts of speeds that these craft are capable of, it's it's an instant.
43:12
43 minutes, 12 seconds
But it was 3 years to the very night because it was late on the night of March 30th and in the early hours of
43:20
43 minutes, 20 seconds
March 31st, both Belgium 1990 and UK 1993 with the Kosford incident.
43:26
43 minutes, 26 seconds
And the Cosford incident was military witnesses, a lot of them as well, weren't they? military witnesses, a lot
43:32
43 minutes, 32 seconds
of guard force personnel at RAF Cosford, RAF Shawbury, a lot of cops too on on night patrol.
43:43
43 minutes, 43 seconds
Were those places where there were uh presumably nuclear weapons stored?
43:48
43 minutes, 48 seconds
Um, you know what? Even though I even though I retired from the Ministry of Defense in 2006,
43:56
43 minutes, 56 seconds
I really can't get into discussions about where nuclear weapons were or
44:02
44 minutes, 2 seconds
weren't stored, even historically. It's just one of those things that's off
44:08
44 minutes, 8 seconds
limits, I'm afraid, because the UK my my security oath, which is known as the official secrets act, even though it's
44:18
44 minutes, 18 seconds
been a long time since I worked there, it binds me for life. And nuclear issues is something that I can't really
44:26
44 minutes, 26 seconds
discuss. I can say in general terms that I'm aware of claims that have been made in the literature about the connection
44:34
44 minutes, 34 seconds
between UFOs and uh nuclear missile silos um other bases where nuclear materials
44:42
44 minutes, 42 seconds
are stored but all I can say is yes I am aware of those reports in the the literature. Yeah, we respect your Yeah,
44:51
44 minutes, 51 seconds
we respect your your you know your oath and uh but I did see you smile a little bit. Um [laughter] hey, listen. We're we're used to
45:00
45 minutes
speaking to the Alzando and it's like half of the questions he has to refer to his NDA. So Nick, we appreciate that that's the first time you've had to do
45:08
45 minutes, 8 seconds
it tonight. But while I was gone, apologies for that. Um you know, nature calls. This isn't CNN or Fox or anything. This is But um did we cover
45:17
45 minutes, 17 seconds
the Calvine case at all? We we skated over it, but I'll I'll just circle back to it for Yeah, if you could anyone
45:26
45 minutes, 26 seconds
Yeah, for anyone watching who isn't familiar, August 1990, two hikers
45:34
45 minutes, 34 seconds
um out in Scotland, early one evening, but daylight still,
45:40
45 minutes, 40 seconds
see a large diamondshaped craft hovering
45:45
45 minutes, 45 seconds
or moving very slowly, and They snap off in quick succession six
45:54
45 minutes, 54 seconds
clear color photographs and then this object just accelerates
46:02
46 minutes, 2 seconds
[snorts] away um incredibly rapidly vertically ver so straight up you know
46:09
46 minutes, 9 seconds
um so what's important about the photographs
46:17
46 minutes, 17 seconds
is not only are they day daylight photos, but they have they have other features in them. So you see the problem
46:27
46 minutes, 27 seconds
is as you probably know if you take a photo of a UFO in the sky even during the day you don't have any frame of
46:35
46 minutes, 35 seconds
reference if if there's nothing no trees no buildings. So you can't you don't know simply put you don't know whether
46:44
46 minutes, 44 seconds
you're looking at a big object say close up or or far away or a small object close up but if you the important point
46:53
46 minutes, 53 seconds
about the Calvin photos is that the ground was in the shot and so were some
47:00
47 minutes
trees and some distant hills. So what you can do is you can get a map and you
47:07
47 minutes, 7 seconds
can look at exactly where this photograph was taken and then you can
47:14
47 minutes, 14 seconds
triangulate and you can particularly and and we got we got intelligence community
47:23
47 minutes, 23 seconds
imagery analysts both at the defense intelligence staff in Ministry of Defense headquarters but
47:30
47 minutes, 30 seconds
also Jarrick which was joint air reconnaissance and intelligence center. Yeah.
47:38
47 minutes, 38 seconds
Uh now I think they've retitled themselves part of the defense fusion center or something like that. Some
47:44
47 minutes, 44 seconds
ghastly modern name. But but look again that this goes back to what I was saying about the men and women who work in
47:52
47 minutes, 52 seconds
those sorts of places or world leaders when it comes to this and and they said this is real. This is
48:00
48 minutes
solid. Uh it's about I I can't remember offhand what it was. 75 feet in diameter
48:10
48 minutes, 10 seconds
um at the particular point they were looking at. No obvious and Lou talks about this course.
48:18
48 minutes, 18 seconds
You know no wings, no fuselage. There does seem to be some people have called it a tail. It's more like appendages. I
48:28
48 minutes, 28 seconds
dare I say it's it's not totally dissimilar to what David Fraor and a couple of other people have talked
48:36
48 minutes, 36 seconds
about in relation to the tic tac that that seems to be something on it but but no nothing conventional in terms of
48:45
48 minutes, 45 seconds
wings or or yeah anything like that. No obvious no obvious no obvious engines or
48:54
48 minutes, 54 seconds
you know so just sorry I was just going to say just sticking with the Calvine case I heard that it's been rec classified for
49:02
49 minutes, 2 seconds
another 50 years before release is there any truth in that do you know there's some truth in it the what what's
49:10
49 minutes, 10 seconds
actually happened is that the original Ministry of Defense file
49:16
49 minutes, 16 seconds
has is closed until the year it's it's either 2071 or 2072.
49:24
49 minutes, 24 seconds
That's what I heard. Yeah.
49:26
49 minutes, 26 seconds
But that's ridiculous.
49:27
49 minutes, 27 seconds
It's but even if you could fast forward um if if we you know, forget the MOD UFO
49:35
49 minutes, 35 seconds
project. If I'd been working at the time travel project. No, I'm only joking.
49:39
49 minutes, 39 seconds
Only joking. Only joking. [laughter] My goodness. I shouldn't even do jokes like that. Oh, really? Yeah, cuz
49:46
49 minutes, 46 seconds
if I could if I could take the mod's fast forward time gun and go to 2071 or
49:52
49 minutes, 52 seconds
2072 and open that file for you, you still wouldn't find those photos. What's
50:00
50 minutes
what people are getting excited about. What's in the file is the the names and addresses of the witnesses.
50:10
50 minutes, 10 seconds
So, so that's what what they won't release. And in a sense, rightly so when
50:17
50 minutes, 17 seconds
you make a when you make a report to the Ministry of Defense, you do so and and you do so in the the
50:26
50 minutes, 26 seconds
knowledge and expectation that you won't have the the sort of local UFO club turning up ringing your doorbell and
50:33
50 minutes, 33 seconds
saying, "Hey, MOD's just" and these people of course reported this long before the Ministry of Defense even had
50:41
50 minutes, 41 seconds
a Freedom of Information Act. So yeah, they had no expectation that their names would be made public. And so that's
50:50
50 minutes, 50 seconds
where we are. But just circling back, what's interesting about this is that uh for years
50:59
50 minutes, 59 seconds
we had in our office a posterized enlargement of the best of the six
51:08
51 minutes, 8 seconds
images. And one day my head of division, I came in and the picture had gone and there were all sorts of other UFO
51:15
51 minutes, 15 seconds
pictures up there and a big map of the the UK with flight pods and air bases and all that, but the big our UFO
51:23
51 minutes, 23 seconds
picture had gone and somebody said, "Hey, you know the Yeah. the the big boss came and took it." So I I was like,
51:31
51 minutes, 31 seconds
"Hey boss, what's going on?" and he said it's in my safe with the the top secret
51:39
51 minutes, 39 seconds
files and documents which were stored separately.
51:45
51 minutes, 45 seconds
Um yeah anyway he he had somehow convinced himself that irrespective of whether this was a secret prototype
51:54
51 minutes, 54 seconds
hypersonic aircraft or drone or whether it was something else possibly even something extraterrestrial that even
52:02
52 minutes, 2 seconds
within Ministry of Defense main building we shouldn't have it up on the wall. So he locked it in his safe and then years
52:10
52 minutes, 10 seconds
later when we declassified and released the files, I said, "Great. Well, at least people will get to see not just
52:18
52 minutes, 18 seconds
the the very poor quality black and white photocopy of a line drawing,
52:24
52 minutes, 24 seconds
[laughter]
52:25
52 minutes, 25 seconds
but maybe they'll get to see the real thing." But no, it had mysteriously disappeared.
52:31
52 minutes, 31 seconds
Wow. Now, but uh you know what? The other day I the the the picture that most of the
52:40
52 minutes, 40 seconds
media uses was drawn up by a graphic artist in LA a few years ago.
52:48
52 minutes, 48 seconds
And I I worked with him from the Ministry of Defense files and from my
52:55
52 minutes, 55 seconds
memory until we got the recreation. And that's now the image that the media use.
53:00
53 minutes
And the other day on Facebook, somebody who who happened to work in
53:07
53 minutes, 7 seconds
secretariat air staff happened to see it on my wall. And a lot of people were saying to themselves and asking me,
53:16
53 minutes, 16 seconds
look, is this just a recreation or is it is it really accurate? And so this this
53:24
53 minutes, 24 seconds
friend of mine who'd worked in SEAS, I said to her without putting any words in her mouth, I said, "Look, people, you've
53:32
53 minutes, 32 seconds
seen the picture because she came into my office, I came into hers, we were colleagues and friends and and she took a look at it and she said, "That's it.
53:41
53 minutes, 41 seconds
That's you know, you've got it." So, Mr. Fe, I I have another question.
53:48
53 minutes, 48 seconds
uh um you know with with with this the description uh descriptions and uh uh whatever you were investigating on the
53:57
53 minutes, 57 seconds
random case all those cases um you know you had to work with proof like you know observables we were talking about has
54:04
54 minutes, 4 seconds
there been ever been a moment you
54:06
54 minutes, 6 seconds
[clears throat]
54:07
54 minutes, 7 seconds
uh had some debris or maybe something equivalent to DNA or RNA to your uh available to you to investigate
54:16
54 minutes, 16 seconds
something that could prove pro alien life maybe or whatever this may be.
54:21
54 minutes, 21 seconds
Well, from time to time people would send us things whether it was soil
54:28
54 minutes, 28 seconds
from a crop circle or or you know I I think from memory
54:37
54 minutes, 37 seconds
occasionally we we got something that somebody said they'd found in
54:45
54 minutes, 45 seconds
association with where a UFO had been seen. And obviously, yeah, we we looked at these things.
54:53
54 minutes, 53 seconds
I can't remember many of the details, but but I I suspect that we got
55:01
55 minutes, 1 second
we got scientific and technical intelligence people to do isotopic ratio
55:06
55 minutes, 6 seconds
analysis and and uh X-ray diffusion and things like that. We we never we never
55:16
55 minutes, 16 seconds
found a smoking gun. We never got anything that we thought, my goodness, this is it.
55:22
55 minutes, 22 seconds
But was there something you would call exotic material that you couldn't really place anywhere?
55:27
55 minutes, 27 seconds
No, I don't. I don't. You know, there were things that people claimed were exotic material, but nothing nothing
55:35
55 minutes, 35 seconds
passed the tests. Nothing. I don't recall I don't recall anything. not on
55:42
55 minutes, 42 seconds
my watch and I can't recall anything in in the archive of files where we got something where we tested it and where
55:51
55 minutes, 51 seconds
we said you know the isotopic ratios suggest non-aterrestrial origin. No, we we didn't have anything like that.
55:59
55 minutes, 59 seconds
But there was but there was but there was something to investigate. You said we didn't have anything. We found something on but there was something you could maybe retract something from.
56:10
56 minutes, 10 seconds
Yeah. just just people sending material in, just members of the public sending things in and and the odd hoaxes.
56:20
56 minutes, 20 seconds
Did you have any contact with um your American counterparts at the time? I'm talking in your four years, three or four years within the mod at the UFO
56:28
56 minutes, 28 seconds
desk. Were you no communication at all with any no there it's very interesting because
56:36
56 minutes, 36 seconds
you before we set up project condine there is a document
56:43
56 minutes, 43 seconds
dated it's it's dated 1993 Leslie Kaine first published it I think okay
56:51
56 minutes, 51 seconds
and at the time it was redacted so I couldn't tell her what it said under the
56:59
56 minutes, 59 seconds
bits that had been blacked out. But it it has now there is now um a fully
57:06
57 minutes, 6 seconds
redacted version. And what it says is um and this this is this is my opposite
57:15
57 minutes, 15 seconds
number in defense intelligence writing to me in about June of 1993. And he
57:23
57 minutes, 23 seconds
says, and I'm paraphrasing, of course, of course, but he says, um, I am aware that Russia believes such
57:34
57 minutes, 34 seconds
phenomena exist and has a small team studying it. I am also aware that
57:44
57 minutes, 44 seconds
um there is an informal body within the US intelligence community looking at
57:53
57 minutes, 53 seconds
this. It may be that this reflects the existence of a more formal group. So
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58 minutes, 2 seconds
what this tells you is that even we in the Ministry of Defense and and not just myself but colleagues
58:11
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in military intelligence could not get access to what the US was
58:18
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or wasn't doing in relation to this. We knew they were doing something, but they would never admit to us, even talking
58:28
58 minutes, 28 seconds
top secret to top secret, insider to, they would never admit to us that they were working on it, let alone share any information.
58:36
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Can you say who sent you that message or or send that across? I I can I can tell you it was it was my opposite number in
58:45
58 minutes, 45 seconds
there's part of the um defense intelligence staff which comes under
58:55
58 minutes, 55 seconds
somebody called Djisti who was director general scientific and technical intelligence. Right? It was it was his
59:04
59 minutes, 4 seconds
subject matter expert at a a slightly um lower rank. So a a middle ranking Air
59:14
59 minutes, 14 seconds
Force officer. We we we kind of were on the phone to each other each day. We were kind of in and out of
59:23
59 minutes, 23 seconds
each other as offices trying to figure out how to get more funds for this, how to get people at higher level to take
59:32
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this more seriously. Hence the whole business of dropping UFO and replacing it with UAP. He was the one who sent me
59:39
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that that document. And as I say, um the important thing about it is it shows that that the Americans weren't talking
59:48
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to us. Sir, um are you aware or maybe familiar with the English uh Secret Service investigating the the phenomenon
59:56
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or UAP activity because for a fact we know of course the CIA had and the FBI had been doing that just not
1:00:04
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communicating with the DoD. Are you aware of any English uh MIA or what's it called?
1:00:11
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uh MI5 MI6 MI5. Yeah. Yeah.
1:00:15
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Let me um there it won't surprise you to learn that this is an area where I'm not going to be able to say very much but again
1:00:23
1 hour, 23 seconds
just just to um explain what the UK intelligence community looks like.
1:00:34
1 hour, 34 seconds
We have MI5 whose essential role is um counterterrorism and counter espionage.
1:00:46
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Then we have MI6 whose role is intelligence gathering overseas. Yeah.
1:00:54
1 hour, 54 seconds
So MI6 is the effectively the equivalent of the US CIA.
1:01:00
1 hour, 1 minute
Yeah. And then we have GCHQ um government communications
1:01:07
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headquarters which is is all about intercepting other communications and securing our
1:01:15
1 hour, 1 minute, 15 seconds
own communications and and cyber systems. Um there's not much I can talk about in relation to UFOs.
1:01:27
1 hour, 1 minute, 27 seconds
I will point out to you although I won't comment on a
1:01:34
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recent report that I think Tim McMillan wrote in the debrief where he said that the unidentified
1:01:42
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aerial phenomena task force had shared some preliminary sightings with
1:01:50
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five eyes colleagues. So the five eyes intelligence sharing relationship the
1:01:56
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United States, Canada, United Kingdom, Australia and New Zealand.
1:02:02
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Wow. Uh Tim McMillan wrote an article where he said that sources
1:02:09
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either in or close to the UAP task force had confirmed that some interim findings had been shared with
1:02:19
1 hour, 2 minutes, 19 seconds
five eyes allies on servers to which GCHQ in the UK had access.
1:02:31
1 hour, 2 minutes, 31 seconds
So, wow. To me, that's impressive.
1:02:34
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That's about Well, he wrote Tim McMillan wrote a very good article. I think um round about December 6th, 2020.
1:02:44
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Um and you were you aware of this?
1:02:47
1 hour, 2 minutes, 47 seconds
Um I'm not I'm not really going to comment on on any I'm not going to comment on any intelligence.
1:02:54
1 hour, 2 minutes, 54 seconds
That's fair enough. No, that's Sorry about that.
1:02:56
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I mean, I'm surprised that I'd not heard of it.
1:02:59
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And I mean, I'm I like to think that I normally keep up with everything that Tim McMillan's done. Maybe I missed something back in December with Christmas and family.
1:03:08
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Well, you know what? Maybe maybe um maybe I'm uh conflating two different
1:03:15
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articles of his, but it's it's in it's in one of his it's in one of his
1:03:23
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um articles somewhere. I thought it was I thought it was around December 6th, but anyway.
1:03:30
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Oh, there's a great comment there. Shout out to the Zignal. We at UAP Media have asked the mod about it. We can't prove anyone read it, but they definitely had
1:03:38
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access to the previous reports. Thank you. Thank you, Dan. Appreciate that.
1:03:42
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Yes, those those people, they they know their stuff. The the Zignal and UAP media folks indeed. um they're across a
1:03:51
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lot of this and and I know that many of the things that we've discussed about project condine that that document that
1:04:00
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my opposite number wrote me and the quote about the you know I'm aware that a small group exists within the US intelligence community I know that
1:04:08
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they're aware of of that. Yeah, there are there are some fairly hard questions to be asked of the UK government for sure.
1:04:16
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Yeah. whether they'll answer them or not.
1:04:19
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Well, this is a thing that I got recently after seeing the House of Lords u debacle, let's say, recently. It seems like that um we're not going to be
1:04:27
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getting much from them in the near future if if if any time, you know?
1:04:31
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No. And and of course the question is or should be is the mod's decision not to
1:04:38
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re-engage on UFOs was that taken on the basis of the nine-page preliminary assessment or was it taken on the basis
1:04:47
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of the classified briefings that some people in the US Congress have had? And if the answer to that question is it's
1:04:57
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only based on the nine-page unclassified preliminary assessment, then the follow-up question should be, well, why
1:05:06
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shouldn't your decision be based on all the data and not just an unclassified summary that the media and the public
1:05:13
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got? So the question to the mod is, have you seen and if not, will you commit to
1:05:21
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requesting the classified brief that Congress got?
1:05:26
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Absolutely. It's it's vital, I think, that that happens because then it's really almost just ignoring a
1:05:33
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possibility of of something that the US are really emphasizing could be a national security threat to them. Well, why would it not be a national security
1:05:41
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threat to here in the UK and across Europe and the world really?
1:05:45
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Well, exactly. I and I don't know that we have huge time to go and do a deep dive into the report to Congress, but I mean the
1:05:53
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important points in that report, which I'm sure you and others have picked out.
1:05:58
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Firstly, the subject heading where it says and again I haven't got it in front of me but it says something like and a
1:06:04
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handful of uh reports indicate the existence of uh advanced technology and
1:06:13
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specifically it goes on to reference radio frequency energy and signature management. Well,
1:06:22
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my goodness. These are the fingerprints [laughter] of of a technology with an energy source and a propulsion system.
1:06:31
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And they're also the fingerprints of an intelligence that is taking some active steps to make itself less detectable.
1:06:42
1 hour, 6 minutes, 42 seconds
Yeah.
1:06:42
1 hour, 6 minutes, 42 seconds
And if the if the mod doesn't want to know about that, I give up. I really do.
1:06:48
1 hour, 6 minutes, 48 seconds
Absolutely. I agree completely. It seems.
1:06:51
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So, Mr. Pope, uh I I I have a cheeky question for you. Have you ever have you ever had an uh an experience of a sighting with the UAP?
1:07:02
1 hour, 7 minutes, 2 seconds
Sadly not. No. And you would think you would think that now I live in Tucson in the great state of Arizona that I would be in the place for it.
1:07:12
1 hour, 7 minutes, 12 seconds
Yes. [laughter] And it not yet. Not yet. We have some
1:07:19
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beautiful big clear skies here and I've seen the space station and I've seen lots of satellites and meteors but I have never seen a UAP.
1:07:29
1 hour, 7 minutes, 29 seconds
And now comes my my follow-up question.
1:07:32
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Uh do you believe it could be ET extraterrestrial?
1:07:37
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You know I take the same view as some elements in the US government. I don't rule it out
1:07:46
1 hour, 7 minutes, 46 seconds
at and as the report said there's unlikely to be one neat single
1:07:55
1 hour, 7 minutes, 55 seconds
answer to this. Chances are there are a lot of things going on in parallel. Some with conventional explanations, Russia,
1:08:05
1 hour, 8 minutes, 5 seconds
China and our own tech, right? and maybe some with
1:08:13
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anomalous explanations. So, I do not rule out the extraterrestrial hypothesis and I would love for it to be true
1:08:20
1 hour, 8 minutes, 20 seconds
because I think of all the the solutions to the UFO mystery, it would be the most interesting and most impactful. But I'm
1:08:29
1 hour, 8 minutes, 29 seconds
not going to sit here and pretend that it's case closed and we've proved it.
1:08:35
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Even by we, I mean within government, because we haven't. We haven't.
1:08:40
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And I think that's the thing I think recently a a lot of things have cropped up where it may even point to something other than extraterrestrial talking
1:08:47
1 hour, 8 minutes, 47 seconds
ultraterrestrial interdimensional. And I think that they are really pushing to be on that same level as
1:08:55
1 hour, 8 minutes, 55 seconds
extraterrestrial that the possibilities are just as you know um believable for each of those different things. And I think that
1:09:03
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in my opinion that the US government don't know what it is. People say oh they know what it is. they've known for you know 50 60 years I genuinely believe
1:09:11
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that is a mix mixture of these different things possibly we we don't know and and as I say firstly there may be multiple things
1:09:19
1 hour, 9 minutes, 19 seconds
going on in parallel secondly all these all these words and phrases that we bandandy around like UAP UFO
1:09:27
1 hour, 9 minutes, 27 seconds
extraterrestrial crypto terrestrial ultraterrestrial these these are just our own labels that we put on something
1:09:37
1 hour, 9 minutes, 37 seconds
If what if the reality of the phenomenon or [snorts] at least the anomalous part of it is something so completely beyond
1:09:46
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our [snorts] capability that that not only don't we have words for it but we don't concepts
1:09:54
1 hour, 9 minutes, 54 seconds
exactly so what if that's the the territory we were in and by the way I should I know that I've probably started
1:10:02
1 hour, 10 minutes, 2 seconds
a zillion conspiracy theories I occasionally just out of force of habit I say we I do not mean that I'm still
1:10:10
1 hour, 10 minutes, 10 seconds
working for the government. I know I don't I don't want to kind of I I know not going to get into this but I know there are accusations that I'm still
1:10:17
1 hour, 10 minutes, 17 seconds
secretly working for them and that I have three luxury properties in Soho that I was given as as a sort of bribe
1:10:25
1 hour, 10 minutes, 25 seconds
for pushing the threat narrative in the media or none of it none of it's true.
1:10:30
1 hour, 10 minutes, 30 seconds
It's just you can't work anywhere for 21 years and then get asked about it even after
1:10:38
1 hour, 10 minutes, 38 seconds
you've left without saying we. It's just force of habit.
1:10:42
1 hour, 10 minutes, 42 seconds
By the way, you can pay us in Bitcoin for this interview. [laughter] No, but that's something that I I was checks in the mail.
1:10:51
1 hour, 10 minutes, 51 seconds
I was tempted to address certain things that certain people have maybe accused you of recently, but you know what? I
1:10:58
1 hour, 10 minutes, 58 seconds
I mean I I can Let me just very briefly Okay, speak to that. I mean, I've I've I've seen
1:11:06
1 hour, 11 minutes, 6 seconds
I mean, I' I've met Stephen Greer a couple of times, obviously, over the years, and I've I've seen this on the internet, and yeah,
1:11:13
1 hour, 11 minutes, 13 seconds
I I don't know whether his belief is genuinely held or whether it's an attempt to to get back in the game and
1:11:20
1 hour, 11 minutes, 20 seconds
and you know, because obviously when when the main when you know, recent
1:11:27
1 hour, 11 minutes, 27 seconds
mainstream media coverage of this has tended to focus on people like Lou
1:11:33
1 hour, 11 minutes, 33 seconds
Alzando, Chris Melon, of course, Jeremy Corbel, George Knapp, myself, Leslie Kaine. And I know that that that
1:11:42
1 hour, 11 minutes, 42 seconds
isn't necessarily popular with some people in the UFO community. And there's a little bit of, hey, what about me
1:11:49
1 hour, 11 minutes, 49 seconds
going on? And so, as I say, I don't know whether Steven Greers genuinely believes
1:11:56
1 hour, 11 minutes, 56 seconds
that that we're all sort of part of of this secret government, Illuminati, new
1:12:03
1 hour, 12 minutes, 3 seconds
world order thing, but I and others have been accused of still secretly working for them. I mean,
1:12:12
1 hour, 12 minutes, 12 seconds
if I if I was still working for them, why would they need to bribe me with three luxury properties? This would be
1:12:18
1 hour, 12 minutes, 18 seconds
my job, wouldn't it? You don't you don't bribe someone for doing their job, but um you just you just pay them their
1:12:26
1 hour, 12 minutes, 26 seconds
government salary, which generally isn't particularly good. But let me I'm kind of joking, but let me let me get let me seriously address this.
1:12:36
1 hour, 12 minutes, 36 seconds
Please do. Please do. I mean, when people like Lou and Chris and
1:12:42
1 hour, 12 minutes, 42 seconds
myself and Jeremy and Leslie and George and and a few others, but when we talk
1:12:49
1 hour, 12 minutes, 49 seconds
about UAP, we people people tend to ask is is there
1:12:56
1 hour, 12 minutes, 56 seconds
a threat or not? And we invariably fall back on using the same threat equation
1:13:04
1 hour, 13 minutes, 4 seconds
that they use in military and in in government, which is threat equals capability times intent.
1:13:11
1 hour, 13 minutes, 11 seconds
We know that the capability looks pretty impressive. Yeah, we we have photos, we have videos, we
1:13:20
1 hour, 13 minutes, 20 seconds
have radar, we have pilot testimony, we have and we haven't even gotten into this, but former DNI John Ratcliffe mentioned satellite imagery of this. We
1:13:30
1 hour, 13 minutes, 30 seconds
have the Mazint, we have the imint, we have the sigant, we have the, you know, everything in [laughter] basically. Um,
1:13:38
1 hour, 13 minutes, 38 seconds
capability looks impressive. intent remains unknown because to shamelessly
1:13:45
1 hour, 13 minutes, 45 seconds
steal lose phrase, we don't know who's behind the wheel. So if one of the
1:13:52
1 hour, 13 minutes, 52 seconds
values in the equation is unknown, we can't therefore solve the qua the equation. And it's therefore better to
1:14:00
1 hour, 14 minutes
assume there's a threat and be relieved if one doesn't materialize than assume it's benign and get caught out if a
1:14:09
1 hour, 14 minutes, 9 seconds
threat suddenly emerges. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.
1:14:13
1 hour, 14 minutes, 13 seconds
So when people like me point this out, we're not promoting the threat narrative in the media. We're not laying the
1:14:21
1 hour, 14 minutes, 21 seconds
grounds for a false flag alien invasion where the new world order can
1:14:28
1 hour, 14 minutes, 28 seconds
enact some sort of space patriot act and do whatever. We are simply saying this
1:14:36
1 hour, 14 minutes, 36 seconds
is the way people in government, the military and the intelligence community view this. And it's not very popular
1:14:44
1 hour, 14 minutes, 44 seconds
with people in the UFO community who take a sort of new age spiritual view of the phenomenon. And I understand that.
1:14:52
1 hour, 14 minutes, 52 seconds
And I've seen Steven Greer do some of his his
1:14:58
1 hour, 14 minutes, 58 seconds
ritual things, you know, etc. And so I I kind of guess that he inclines towards
1:15:07
1 hour, 15 minutes, 7 seconds
that end of the spectrum. So probably what he hears from Chris Melon and Blue and myself and and others and and Jeremy
1:15:16
1 hour, 15 minutes, 16 seconds
the other day used the phrase act of war.
1:15:19
1 hour, 15 minutes, 19 seconds
But then so did David Fraor when he talked about active radar jamming. So look, we're not making this up. We're not pulling it out of a hat.
1:15:27
1 hour, 15 minutes, 27 seconds
No. And if if the men and women who are up there flying these things, you know, like David Fraor or Alex Dietrich, and I
1:15:36
1 hour, 15 minutes, 36 seconds
don't want to put words in Alex's mouth because I I haven't heard her say act of war. I heard David Fraor say it.
1:15:44
1 hour, 15 minutes, 44 seconds
Yeah. And I think Ryan Graves has said it as well. Ryan Graves said it, too. Yeah. Yeah.
1:15:47
1 hour, 15 minutes, 47 seconds
So, yeah. To to maybe maybe continue uh on that note as a last topic because we we've been talking for a while. Um the
1:15:56
1 hour, 15 minutes, 56 seconds
Pentac case. Um Oh, Pentuk Wales. Yeah, sorry I can't pronounce that. It's okay. I couldn't for a long time.
1:16:04
1 hour, 16 minutes, 4 seconds
That I there there are war stories about that presumably. But uh yeah, there I have had a lot of people
1:16:13
1 hour, 16 minutes, 13 seconds
reach out to me recently saying, "Nick, Nick, you must get into this case. You must read up on
1:16:20
1 hour, 16 minutes, 20 seconds
it. you must help us with maybe advice about questions to ask, Freedom of
1:16:27
1 hour, 16 minutes, 27 seconds
Information Act requests. I I have been so focused on the situation in and of course I now live in the United States.
1:16:36
1 hour, 16 minutes, 36 seconds
I've lived I've lived here since January 2021. No, sorry, Jan January 2012.
1:16:44
1 hour, 16 minutes, 44 seconds
So, wow.
1:16:46
1 hour, 16 minutes, 46 seconds
Uh nearly 10 years now. So, sorry. It's that time travel thing. It's confusing me. People will pick up on that, you and me.
1:16:55
1 hour, 16 minutes, 55 seconds
[laughter]
1:16:55
1 hour, 16 minutes, 55 seconds
But look, [snorts] with with huge apologies to the witnesses and the researchers, I have been so fully
1:17:04
1 hour, 17 minutes, 4 seconds
engaged on the US Navy videos, the UAP task force, um the ODNI report to
1:17:11
1 hour, 17 minutes, 11 seconds
Congress. I I simply have not engaged on the Pentrich case. It's a mistake.
1:17:19
1 hour, 17 minutes, 19 seconds
It's It's completely my fault. I put my hand up. I apologize. But there we are. No, that's great. And you know what?
1:17:27
1 hour, 17 minutes, 27 seconds
We've been lucky that other people other people have covered it recently, which we've been very blessed to see um interviews with the primary witness, Cas Clark. And I know the people at the
1:17:35
1 hour, 17 minutes, 35 seconds
Swansea UFO Network have been very good at dealing with this case. I've reached out to them. Hopefully, we'll have them on this show soon. But we appreciate
1:17:43
1 hour, 17 minutes, 43 seconds
your honesty and that and and is you know we understand especially this year the past 6 months how busy it must have been for you being over there in the
1:17:52
1 hour, 17 minutes, 52 seconds
states as well being called upon to talk about the preliminary assessment for the six months leading up to it and then the time after it. So no we we appreciate that. Thank you so much.
1:18:02
1 hour, 18 minutes, 2 seconds
Yeah. And by the way we need you back on this show already.
1:18:07
1 hour, 18 minutes, 7 seconds
So, if you wouldn't mind, we would love to do a follow-up with you and maybe uh with Mr. Alzando or something, you know,
1:18:15
1 hour, 18 minutes, 15 seconds
get the two wise get the two wise men together, right?
1:18:19
1 hour, 18 minutes, 19 seconds
Well, I'm not sure I'm that wise, but yeah, I'm uh I'm happy to do that. And this time, I think I know I have the
1:18:27
1 hour, 18 minutes, 27 seconds
right browser installed. [laughter] So, we're just grateful that it all got figured out because there was a little bit of panic. And I was I was ready to take the heat for
1:18:36
1 hour, 18 minutes, 36 seconds
you, Nick, but okay. [laughter] No, that's that's fine. And presumably I again just to show you how unt
1:18:44
1 hour, 18 minutes, 44 seconds
technically minded I am. I assume a lot of people have been following this live, but I also assume that in due course you'll make it available on your website
1:18:52
1 hour, 18 minutes, 52 seconds
and on your YouTube channel or something like that so that those people that missed it can go back for it right after the show automatically.
1:19:00
1 hour, 19 minutes
Okay. But yeah, so listen um Nick, I I just want to say personally, thank you so much. I've been following your work
1:19:07
1 hour, 19 minutes, 7 seconds
for many, many years, so this for me has been an absolute pleasure and an honor. So thank you.
1:19:13
1 hour, 19 minutes, 13 seconds
Thank you. And look, I didn't I didn't mean to be too harsh on Steven Greer.
1:19:17
1 hour, 19 minutes, 17 seconds
I'm I'm sure his views are are what they are. But I mean I I cannot tell you how many people have have asked
1:19:26
1 hour, 19 minutes, 26 seconds
me about these three properties in Soho and it's just you know it's just things like that. It's it's not it's just not
1:19:35
1 hour, 19 minutes, 35 seconds
particularly helpful. I mean I know you know listen Max can have one, I can have one and you can have the other. There we go.
1:19:41
1 hour, 19 minutes, 41 seconds
Well, there we are. [laughter] Anyway, I'm I'm looking to diversify my portfolio now. It's been exposed like this.
1:19:48
1 hour, 19 minutes, 48 seconds
I think that's the thing that people need to know that it is pretty much that ridiculous that it shouldn't even really have to be explained in my opinion,
1:19:56
1 hour, 19 minutes, 56 seconds
you know. And and the other thing is how could I ever prove that I wasn't still secretly working for the government?
1:20:05
1 hour, 20 minutes, 5 seconds
It's one of those negatives that's almost impossible to prove.
1:20:08
1 hour, 20 minutes, 8 seconds
Exactly. Yeah. And it's not You shouldn't have to, you know, because No, there'll always there'll always be naysayers out there. You know, you you
1:20:15
1 hour, 20 minutes, 15 seconds
know your integrity. I think a lot of people, Max, myself, and and a vast majority of people in this community know that you're in your integrity.
1:20:22
1 hour, 20 minutes, 22 seconds
Well, you can you can literally go to the website of British Parliament and see see the Secretary of State for
1:20:30
1 hour, 20 minutes, 30 seconds
Defense get asked a question and and sort of talk about my time on the UFO program doing the investigations being
1:20:38
1 hour, 20 minutes, 38 seconds
91 to 1994, not 1991 to present. Uh, so that's out there. And
1:20:46
1 hour, 20 minutes, 46 seconds
of course, people can go to the declassified and released Ministry of Defense case files, many of which I
1:20:53
1 hour, 20 minutes, 53 seconds
wrote. So, it's all out there. It's all they're all available on my Instagram in my link tree and I've I've covered them quite a lot. People, they are there.
1:21:02
1 hour, 21 minutes, 2 seconds
It's And it's funny, Steven Greenreet when when we were doing the basement office, he would go and pull out mod
1:21:09
1 hour, 21 minutes, 9 seconds
documents with my name on that I'd forgotten about. He'd say, "Nick, [laughter] I found this in the archive." And I'll be, "I don't remember writing
1:21:17
1 hour, 21 minutes, 17 seconds
that." Oh, yes, that one. And [laughter] that's brilliant. Ah, great series as well. I recommend that to everyone as
1:21:25
1 hour, 21 minutes, 25 seconds
well, Mr. Pope. Uh, I can't thank you enough.
1:21:28
1 hour, 21 minutes, 28 seconds
And, uh, this is an open invitation anytime soon to please come back on the show. Yeah. By the way, our viewers love you.
1:21:36
1 hour, 21 minutes, 36 seconds
They do. Yeah.
1:21:37
1 hour, 21 minutes, 37 seconds
Thank you. Thank you very much. Well, um I will I'm sure when you send me the link to the thing on YouTube or
1:21:45
1 hour, 21 minutes, 45 seconds
whatever, I'll tweet it myself either later today or tomorrow.
1:21:49
1 hour, 21 minutes, 49 seconds
That would be great. Really appreciate that. Thank you. Thank you so much.
1:21:52
1 hour, 21 minutes, 52 seconds
Okay. Well, have a great rest of the day and I do apologize to you and to everyone else uh at the beginning for the technical snafuss which were
1:22:01
1 hour, 22 minutes, 1 second
completely my fault. No, going forward if anyone ever says that and asks you to use streamyard,
1:22:08
1 hour, 22 minutes, 8 seconds
you're ready. [laughter] Bring it on. Yes. Thank you everybody for watching.
1:22:14
1 hour, 22 minutes, 14 seconds
Thank you guys. Thank you, Nick. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you very much. Bye now. Take care. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.