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Well, Richard, always a pleasure to speak to you. How's things been?
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Hi, Vinnie. I'm glad to be here with you. It's uh it's a pleasure. And um I'm doing fine. Tracy and I are doing great
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and I continue to do my work. I'm little bit behind schedule as I always seem to be in on whatever book project I'm
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working on. But uh the second volume of my history of USOS that is unidentified submerged objects won't be out before
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Christmas, but it will be out very soon after that. So, um, in the home stretcher just wrapping that up. Things are good.
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Good to hear. Great. And, yeah, very much looking forward to volume two of the the book. The first one was incredible. So, yeah, really exciting.
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Well, Richard, I mentioned to you just before we hit record here that I I wanted to take uh this interview back a few years and and really focus on the
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kind of research years through the 1990s into the 2000s and up to kind of everywhere pre207 because I think I feel
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like we've had a lot of new people come into the subject 2017 and onwards who may not be as familiar with some of the
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the researchers and the the cases and work that was being done before. So, I guess my first question would be, who
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were the researchers you paid the closest attention to back then?
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Well, it's funny. I started seriously researching the UFO subject. I would call it UFO in this case since that's
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what it was called at the time. I started researching it seriously in uh the early to mid 90s, so a little over
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30 years ago now. And at that time, I mean, I started at ground zero. I had really no knowledge of uh the subject in
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any any way and [clears throat] I'd heard about it just like anyone else.
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I'd heard there were claims of a cover up and claims of this and that but I didn't really know until I started reading. So the uh what what I
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discovered is that from the 1940s into the '9s where I was at the time there is
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a very large body of of excellent UFO researchers who had come and gone.
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and I kind of went through the uh the history of them all. Um so looking at the early uh 1950s and like the
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immediate postWorld War II era when the so-called flying saucers as they were called originally were being discussed,
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there were certain writers who really dug into this and probably the most prominent of that era would be uh
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retired major Donald Kho. Kho was a a US major. He had been friends with a lot of
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uh high level people in the Navy uh including the very first director of the CIA Rosco Helen Carter who had been a
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Navy admiral. Uh Kho and Hill Carter had been classmates at Annapolis many many years before and he had a lot of other
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connections in the military and Kho wrote a bunch of books on this in the 50s and u um his last book was actually in 1973.
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So I read I dove into all of those and to read Kioho is to really get a feel
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for uh the immediacy of this whole subject. It was like he's writing like a
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journalist uh kind of sometimes even in a breath breathy breathless style. It's like okay are they going to are they going to make an announcement this year
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next year? It's like you know it's 1953 and they were talking like this back then. Uh but what you also get with Kho
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is a lot of um conversations that he had with high level people about this subject. You really get a sense of of
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how seriously the US military and intelligence community did seem to be taking the subject of UFOs pretty much
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right out of the gate. So there's Donald Kho. Uh there was a couple of other early people uh in from the American side of it. There was a very very famous
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book from the 50s by a captain of the air force named Edward Rupelt.
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Uh that was very important because Rupelt ran project blue book. I think many people may be familiar with that.
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That was the official US Air Force study of these UFOs. And Rupelt ran it for a little while. And they wrote a book in
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1956. And uh it was a shocking book honestly because during the period of time in the 50s when the air force was
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saying ah there's nothing to these flying saucers. It's all either misidentification of natural phenomena or hoaxes or psychopathological persons
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who are behind it. They did say that. Uh here comes Rupelt with his book saying no as a matter of fact there were many
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of these sightings that blew our minds and uh caused very high level conversations within the military. So,
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Rupel told told a fascinating story and a funny thing about him, not so funny, uh, three three years later, he added
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three chapters which totally debunked his original book in in a really, I have to say, childish way. I mean, his
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original book was very mature. It was very well put together. And he tacks on these three chapters at the end which sounds like he's out of junior high
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school uh making fun of people and engaging in ridicule. It's very unworthy of him. Uh and then as soon as he revised that he died of a heart attack
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at the age of 37. Very strange. Rupelt u is um one of these interesting early
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personalities of the UFO subject that's really always worth looking into. There were other early researchers, a a married couple named James and Coral
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Lorenzan. Um they wrote many many books in the in the 60s and 70s and um I think probably into the 80s on this subject.
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Um they were some of the earliest people to write about contact and abduction and uh I think they've always done very very excellent work and a lot of other folks.
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Jay Allen Heinneck you know the astronomer who was the consultant to project blue book wrote several good books. Jacqu Valet back in the 1960s and 70s and 80s was writing very good books.
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[clears throat] Timothy Good in the UK, one of the greatest UFO writers of all time, uh wrote several just monumentally
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important books starting in the um really in the 80s is when he got going into his his full groove there. He wrote
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uh the book above top secret which was the the book uh more than any other that prompted my own interest in this
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subject. I was in a I was in a bookstore back in the early 90s and I saw above top secrets sitting on a shelf there and
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it was a subtitle that really caught my attention, the worldwide UFO coverup.
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And it's kind of a weird thing looking back at it now, but in the early 90s, [clears throat] you know,
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there was always talk about a UFO cover up even back then. This wasn't this isn't a new thing. U and I thought, you
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know, especially back then, I was doing a lot of serious study. I I was on track, I thought, to become a a professor of history at some university
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that would take me. And I was studying American Cold War strategy. So, I'm all about the 1950s. And here's Timothy
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Good. Uh, and I'm flipping through his pages and I'm I'm seeing literal like names of of uh people that
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I was studying at that time. Uh, departments that I was studying at that time. And here he is putting them in
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this totally different context of UFOs and cover-ups. And I'm thinking, what is going on here? My head was spinning. And I thought, is this real or is this BS?
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And I bought the book and I thought I I don't like not knowing what is the answer to this question. Were UFOs taken
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seriously by these people at in the highest levels of the national security community or not? It's a really simple
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question. Not what were UFOs? Are they alien? Are they this or that? I I wasn't there yet. But Tim Good opened this
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whole question up for me. It just hit me at the right moment at the right time.
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And I, as I said, I bought the book and just went down that rabbit hole, which has kept me down there ever since. But Tim Good's work is uh extremely
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important. Um, you know, he wrote really excellent books into the 21st century
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right up until just before 2017. Uh, and I think he really retired at around that time. So I think his last book, uh, was
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Earth and Alien Enterprise, which came around 2013 or so. And that is a an excellent book. Excellent book. So he
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has a a massive mag a massive opus we could say. And um it's worth reading. Uh Linda Molton How wrote some very
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interesting books back in the uh 80s and 90s, some very good books. Uh Stanton Freriedman and you know the list just
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goes on and on and on. There's so much of eupfology. Uh there was some very good research. There was a gentleman named Jerome Clark. He's still around.
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uh wrote some very excellent um books on like all aspects of the phenomenon. They
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were really quite useful for me and books books and more books. They just don't stop. I don't I don't really know if people are about reading books quite
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as much uh today as they were even 25 years ago when I uh 35 years ago when I started doing this. But that's how it
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was for me. It was just one book after another. And then let me just not forget um perhaps a researcher that these days
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uh has affected me the most and that might be Leonard Stringfield who was an American researcher. He was
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really active actually back in the 1950s. Took some time off it seems to me in the 60s and then came back and began
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to focus on stories of crash retrievals that is retrievalss of UFOs. And he he
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did this you know, starting in the 1970s and he's just he lived in Dayton, Ohio, which is right near u one of the most
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important US Air Force bases in the country, right, Patterson Air Force Base. So he had a lot of and plus he was ex-military
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uh a lot of military people felt comfortable coming up to him and he just began collecting um at first just like a
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handful and then more and then more and then suddenly like he's over a hundred different direct stories of uh from
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mostly people from the US military who just old him about one or a different
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aspect of alien bodies retrieval of alien technology and uh he put those together in a series of what he called
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status reports. There were seven of them. Uh that's available on Amazon now.
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You can buy the whole thing. It's kind of expensive, but it's some of the best UFO reading that's out there in my opinion. So, Leonard Stringfield, who
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died um in 1994, which was really just about the first year that I went fullon into the UFO subject. So, I never really
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got to meet him or talk to him. Uh that would have been great if I had But the um pre207
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era of UFO research is extremely um was extremely active uh filled with a
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lot of very brilliant people who were uh just dogged researchers in many many cases. And I've I mean there just so
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many other names I've left out of this, but it's um it was a it's a full a very
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full history. And those of us who are studying this now should be proud to be part of that history because there were
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some honestly I'll just say some real giants of research and bravery back in those days.
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Absolutely. I couldn't agree more.
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mentioned some fantastic names, great researchers, great authors and I hope people watching or listening to this will pick up on some of those names and
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go and look at those books because I think they are vital pieces of the puzzle uh for the conversation even to today. But you know you mentioned the
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researchers but what about cases? Were there any cases that initially really made you think you know oh there's definitely something here because of that that or that?
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Yes, for sure. Um, honestly though, I would say not so much the not as much the cases as some of the declassified
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documents that I learned about. We can talk about cases too for sure because there's some great ones. But what I'll
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just say is that, you know, in the uh again in the early mid 90s, my main goal was to ask myself
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uh how serious was this phenomenon? Like how seriously did the United States military take it? And the reason I wanted to know that
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uh was very simple. It was like all of these years the uh you know I I I'm over here in the states so I I'm focused on
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the US government I guess but I would always notice like the US government continually would issue denial after
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denial of anything having to do with the reality of UFOs. It was a non-stop refrain for them. And I thought okay
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fair enough. But if there's any evidence that these encounters
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uh generated serious military concern, then to my mind that would fly in the face of all of the denials. So that was
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the first thing I wanted to look for. It wasn't that I thought the military cases were intrinsically more important than
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civilian cases, but it was this particular angle that interested me. So I I soon became aware that there were a
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large number of declassified documents pertaining to UFOs through the Freedom of Information Act, which really
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only got going in uh in this country in the mid [clears throat] late 70s.
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Um, and but by the time I was looking at this in the 90s and there were a lot of documents that had been declassified and so I just found out where they were and
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I read them and I was I have to say I was kind of blown away. There were there were documents from the late 40s that
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strongly indicated that these objects were not our own, were not Soviet Russian, were not belonging to any other
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country and yet we're doing things uh like traveling at extreme speeds with in ex in incredible maneuverability far
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beyond anything we were capable of. For example, there were I many people who are researchers may be familiar with the
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famous Twining memo. I say famous in the UFO field. General Nathan Twining um was a three star, later became a four-star
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general of the US Air Force and in September of 1947 just was writing in response to a query by another general about these flying saucers and Twining
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said, "Yeah, it's it's real, not visionary or fictitious." That's the first thing he said. the phenomenon is real, not visionary or fictitious. So,
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it's September 1947 and I'm I'm reading this and I'm thinking it's real according to this general who later
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became chief of staff of the US Air Force. And then he goes on and he's got all these little basically bullet points describing
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these craft from a military perspective and uh uh evasive maneuvers when cited,
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silent or or almost always silent. That was interesting. And then my favorite uh domed on top uh flat on bottom domed on
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top like like a flying saucer. And you just ask yourself it's like dude this is 1947
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and um he's describing this in a memo that was at the time secret was only declassified decades later. And I just
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was wondering like so did they ever figure this out? Did they ever did they ever resolve what the heck these things were? And then there are some other
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documents from 1949 that really just grabbed me struck uh just struck me as astonishing. Um back at that time the
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FBI was doing a little bit of investigation into these flying saucers also and the FBI had their military liaison that they were talking to and so
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all these reports were going back to the FBI director Jay Edgar Hoover at the time. So, and we can read a lot of those
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and again you see these documents where they they're talking about uh how the military in the southwestern US over
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places like Los Alamos National Labs were tracking these objects moving at uh incred like multiple thousands of miles
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per hour speeds uh at altitudes of 100,000 miles per hour which absolutely no aircraft that we had could reach that
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altitude not even close at that time. uh and doing all these things over sensitive military installations and uh and I learned that they were they
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gathered together a team of high level military scientists to study this and on and on. Uh the deeper I got the more
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shocked that I was. Uh in terms of actual sightings, I mean it's almost too numerous to mention to be quite honest
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about it, but there are some really excellent ones that uh I found uh you know, pretty remarkable
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the top of my head. Uh well, there was uh one from 1953. This is another declassified document and it
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took place over the Oakidge nuclear facility in the state of Tennessee.
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another important place like you don't just take classified aircraft and hang out uh over places like this. is very
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very significant like America's nuclear technology in the early 50s like there was very little that would be considered
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more important than that other than UFO tech but nuclear technology very important and here you are at uh in 1953
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an Oakidge technician reported this he says there is this uh black object that came in at an incredible speed and then stopped just stopped
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and then he uh watched it go back and forth across the sky by at extreme rates of speed doing all of these non-inertial
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turns like hard angle turns and the like. And then he said it was joined by two other of these same type of objects.
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They formed a V formation and just shot off uh to the east at an incredible speed. And that was that was just one that's just like throw it in the pile.
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You know, there's so many of these. And I will just say when I encountered these reports for the first time, the thing
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that that disturbed me, it disturbs me still to this day if I can be honest about it was like, okay, so you've got
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you've got many many reports of encounters like this that that's not a unique report.
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And the the documents now have since been declassified. Like they are public domain since the late '7s. They have
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been public domain. And I and I was thinking as I read it, where the hell is everyone talking about this? Why is this
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still pushed to the sidelines the way it is? Were these people just all making mistakes? Were they all hallucinating?
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Uh well, when you when I would read the responses of the military authorities and the intelligence community
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authorities to these, they certainly seemed to be taking this very seriously.
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And and uh you know, when I first when I first encountered Tim Good's book, you know, back in I think it was 1993, my
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question was, did the US government take this seriously? And if they did, did they ever stop? And so I was constantly
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trying to understand like was there evidence that our guys figured this out and they said, "Okay, check this off.
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Let's move on." And the answer is no.
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They never they never came to a situation where they figured it out. Not that I've ever been able to seen. They they have always been dealing with this
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phenomenon that they clearly have no control over that clearly is not their own. And this is an important thing to
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emphasize does not in the least look like blackbudget US tech and nor does it look like Russians Soviet blackbudget
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tech of of that period of time. Um I mean we can go into all the reasons why I suppose but it just doesn't. So um
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you know I became kind of uh enraptured by the UFO phenomenon early on like right out of the gate and I it has never
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released its grip over me and over my life. uh just because it's such an incredible disconnect, you know, this
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this reality that seemed to be so intense and so concerning to everyone at
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the top of the of the national security food chain and yet not never got any love in official statements, was always ridiculed.
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And you know, I I contrast it with our current era where it's a little bit different, but there are certain commonalities still even to this day.
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Like, so since 2017, since we've had um some coverage in the
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New York Times and elsewhere about this that were not reflexively ridiculing and did seem to take the subject somewhat
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seriously. So, we've been able to have a bit more of a public conversation about UFOs.
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However, from my perspective, understanding the subject, at least from where I'm I'm sitting here, uh I feel like we are
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still, you know, not out of kindergarten here. We're taking real true baby steps in the manner of our conversation about
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this subject. There is so much more so much more deep uh stuff going on with the UFO UAP phenomenon than
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not only is the the establishment mainstream media not covering it, but I often feel like our own community of
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researchers are not really fully covering certain aspects of this phenomenon that I think are very
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important, very significant. And uh so we we have a long way to go in
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terms of public education when it comes to this truly incredible subject of of UAP or UFOs.
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We do. We really do. What about the community? Because we see this community that's growing quite quite rapidly at the moment, but at the same time they're
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very much online and at loggerheads with each other. What was the community vibe like? let's say around the 90s into the
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early 2000s, it wasn't much better. I mean, uh, when [laughter] I when I first started,
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uh, researching this in the early 90s, there was a little baby internet that existed at the time, not even a web, but there was like news groups, used to be
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called Usenet and bulletin boards. I guess the closest thing to it would be Reddit today, you know. Um, and the
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first thing I noticed back then was people screaming, "You suck. No, you suck. I'm going to kill you." You know, they it was going on back then, too. Uh,
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and then prior to that, prior to any internet, the UFO researchers was a much smaller club, you could say. You know, I
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mean, think about it. Couple of journals, privately printed journals that had very minimal circulations, relatively speaking. Uh, the Muon UFO
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Journal barely o ever cracked over 2,000 subscribers at any one time for most of that period. It was very restricted. So,
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you could say it was a bit of an old boys club with a couple of couple of women were always in there, but it was just an old a restricted club with a lot
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of rivalries, a lot of ego. That that stuff never stopped. Like, there's always egos. There's always people uh
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protecting their turf. Uh I think there were turf wars going on back then as well and then you know new upstarts
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trying to make their name. Uh it didn't really seem much different. What's different today is the scale and and
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perhaps I could say what's different is that the arguments of an earlier era
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um I don't want to overgeneralize here because I probably would make some mistakes but uh tended to be a little more informed about the subject matter
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than probably today and and I think that's just to be expected because you just have so many people now uh can come
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in and everyone's got an opinion And uh some of them are informed and many are not that well informed in my in
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my opinion. So um I think you know what we have now I I have to honestly say
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like I I do not ever follow discussions going on places
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like X or any other social media. I just don't Other people do that and and I'm sure they need to. If I were to do that
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I I think I would probably never get anything else done. So I just I just can't. Um but um
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that is my sense. On the other hand, let me just say when I do research on almost anything and I end up at a place like
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Reddit particularly uh I find a lot of like extremely wellthoughtout intelligent uh pieces of
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research. So on many levels, I think we're we're benefiting greatly from having an online community the way that
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we do. Yes, there are always people who will uh yell and scream with uninformed opinions about all kinds of things, but
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um there's also good good work out there as well. And I I don't know, you know, how can you uh how can we just sift out
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the bad from the good? That's always a difficult task. But there is a lot that's good out that is out there. I I think so. Um
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it's, you know, just is confusing. Um there's just so much I I think I should
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be careful how I phrase this because uh I don't want to come across as saying like I know everything that's going on in the current discussions that are
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happening today. I I don't think that I do.
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Um, but what I do sense, one thing that is lacking, and I'm just going to take the opportunity to mention it here, is
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an ongoing conversation about the sheer scale of this phenomenon, as far as I can tell, every single day.
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Every day. And I say this because one thing that I like to do is track contemporary UFO reports that people uh
27:03
27 minutes, 3 seconds
will write about. Um, there's one great online source that I have never stopped using. That's the National UFO Reporting
27:11
27 minutes, 11 seconds
Center and you anyone can go there. It's open source.
27:16
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Um, there are have always been things about that site that I wish were organized a little bit differently, but I beggars can't be choosers. I mean,
27:24
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these people are at least doing the work and they're putting the cases out there.
27:28
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And uh and then there's the MUON database and um there's now Enigma Labs which is putting out a database as well.
27:36
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Although I haven't really successfully been able to um navigate through that database. Maybe I'm doing something wrong. But my point is that there's a
27:45
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lot of um cases that are going on all the time. And I'm not saying every single one of them is an alien craft.
27:53
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Obviously I'm not saying that. But I will say there's a lot of cases that I will review that just make me go, "Wow!"
28:01
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when I read them. They're uh clearly they need investigation. Most of them will never get investigated, but that doesn't mean they're not fascinating and
28:10
28 minutes, 10 seconds
and powerful. Like just read through them. They're incredible. Many of them are. Some are, you know, kind of boring
28:18
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or not really all that much. But I guess my point here is that my [clears throat] sense is that there is active
28:26
28 minutes, 26 seconds
active behavior on the part of these intelligences behind this every single day worldwide not just in one region of the world. they they seem to be
28:35
28 minutes, 35 seconds
everywhere uh including uh in in large bodies of water which has been my recent focus of the last few years but also
28:43
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everywhere and and in every kind of environment whether [clears throat] dense urban areas, rural areas, desert
28:52
28 minutes, 52 seconds
areas, mountainous areas, forested areas, you know, you name it. Uh there's a lot going on that seems very difficult
29:00
29 minutes
to explain and I have no doubt that more and more many of these can be explained by you
29:08
29 minutes, 8 seconds
know off-the-shelf drone technology or other other kinds of advanced technology that we're developing all the time. Yes, of course. But some of these are just even on that basis difficult to explain.
29:20
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So I think this is the big story. It's like you know we keep talking about disclosure. We're going to have disclosure. What's Congress going to do
29:26
29 minutes, 26 seconds
next? Um, yeah, that's important. I I will never say that's not important, but I think we've lost a few conversations
29:35
29 minutes, 35 seconds
here in the process and and that's one of them. It's like what who are these guys? What are they doing around the
29:42
29 minutes, 42 seconds
world seemingly every day? What is so important for them that they are doing this without announcing themselves to us?
29:51
29 minutes, 51 seconds
Not that we're so important, but we might like to know we're another intelligence operating here. And we can see that there's something else going
29:59
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on. And yet they haven't done that. So there's a lot of very interesting questions to be asking about this phenomenon. And whether or not it
30:07
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involves a sense of urgency or not is a whole other question. Many people believe it does. Some people maybe not
30:13
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necessarily, but the fact is you've got what appears to be a very advanced, sophisticated intelligence that has been
30:23
30 minutes, 23 seconds
operating here for at least a little while. They seem to do so with total confidence in themselves, total
30:30
30 minutes, 30 seconds
confidence in their capabilities and being able to do everything they want without us being able to impede them in the least. Uh and on top of that they
30:38
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have uh as I have seen now many times in my own research they have the ability to shut us down at the snap of a finger
30:45
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with electromagnetic interference just shutting shutting our equipment down shutting electronics down. Uh this is very I think very easy for them to do
30:54
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when they want to. So they just uh they have their way and that could be bad or that could be okay, but it seems to be
31:04
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going on and it just doesn't it doesn't seem to be as much part of uh the broader conversation. I just continually notice this.
31:13
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Yeah, I agree. I agree. I mean, sticking with your research over the years since the early '9s, has your research style
31:20
31 minutes, 20 seconds
or how you research things changed as we've, you know, gotten, you know, the internet being so accessible now and but
31:29
31 minutes, 29 seconds
at the same time there maybe being even more misinformation out there. How have you navigated that that through your research?
31:35
31 minutes, 35 seconds
Yeah, I have to be care now. Now we're in a GPT era, right? We're in an AI era where uh these dangers continue. So
31:43
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yeah, my my style has changed. So when I started in the 90s, it was basically all books. And um and these guys, these are
31:51
31 minutes, 51 seconds
little pencils. Remember those? So I would I would read a book and I would every time I came across a relevant fact, I would do a little check mark in
31:59
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the margin. And then when I finished the book, I would go back over it and every check would go into my own database that
32:06
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I would write up for myself. And I would put all of those facts in a chronological order with the citation with the page number where I found it.
32:14
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And I would do this I did this for hundreds of books. So it was a very uh old school analog method of doing it.
32:21
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The advantage of it was that it actually forced me to learn the data in a much more uh intimate way than if I were just
32:30
32 minutes, 30 seconds
copying and pasting from a website which is much more what I will do now. I mean I will totally say that. But when I
32:38
32 minutes, 38 seconds
uh but my entry into this field was rewriting massive uh texts from all of
32:47
32 minutes, 47 seconds
the original sources and I think it it made a deep imprint on my own psyche so that I think it's helped me have a very
32:54
32 minutes, 54 seconds
good memory of of of cases and all this type of thing. uh as time went on and as we developed, you know, better um
33:03
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capability with the web, even before AI, as I just mentioned, I would uh a lot of my research I would do online, of
33:10
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course, and find texts or bits of information that were useful to me, and I would uh save those documents, of
33:18
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course, digitally or copy and paste them into my own system, but continue with my chronological u database, which I I still maintain.
33:29
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So, uh, so that that allowed me to get more information, but I' I haven't always been sure that it's it's helped
33:36
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my mind as much. Uh, the information is there, so I've got it and I can access it. So, that's I guess that's the good
33:43
33 minutes, 43 seconds
part. So, I I've spent all of these years building my own uh private database of UAP UFO related information,
33:52
33 minutes, 52 seconds
and that's been quite valuable. At the same time though, so now in the last few years since GPT has been available to all of us, myself included. So I I have
34:01
34 minutes, 1 second
discovered as I'm sure everyone has discovered, you cannot trust the factuality of chat GPT or whatever large language model is out there.
34:12
34 minutes, 12 seconds
So um so that has been
34:19
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I I think like for me um GPT actually is useful and I think you know it's important to recognize the many good
34:27
34 minutes, 27 seconds
things that it can do. Um if I want a summary of a certain case I
34:35
34 minutes, 35 seconds
can I can get that. if I want uh all kinds of all kinds of summary information.
34:41
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Um I think that's quite useful too. I mean the thing is with with artificial intelligence
34:50
34 minutes, 50 seconds
uh you know I know people have mixed feelings about it. Some people are like it's amazing which it is amazing. It can be amazing and others are like it's
34:59
34 minutes, 59 seconds
cheating and it produces a lot of slop writing which all of that is true but as a tool it's it's not going away. It
35:08
35 minutes, 8 seconds
is it is here to stay. Uh this is this is exactly true. There's a statement I read from 5,000 years ago from ancient
35:16
35 minutes, 16 seconds
Egypt. Uh I should look for it again. It it exists. I I swear it exists. So there was an ancient Egyptian who was
35:24
35 minutes, 24 seconds
complaining, if you can believe it, over this new thing called writing. And his complaint
35:31
35 minutes, 31 seconds
was, you know, we used to be able to remember everything, which was true, you know, because you had to. And and he was essentially
35:40
35 minutes, 40 seconds
stating truly and truthfully that with writing, we didn't really have to remember all these things because if you wrote it down, it was always there and
35:47
35 minutes, 47 seconds
it was kind of like a lazy way out. And what he was saying was technically true, but we can also see the larger picture,
35:55
35 minutes, 55 seconds
which was that writing was extremely helpful to us by allowing us to store all kinds of information uh that we need to store. You can't just keep it all in
36:04
36 minutes, 4 seconds
your head. And AI is kind of like that on a on a in terms of information
36:10
36 minutes, 10 seconds
management. Uh AI is uh just the latest step, the latest
36:17
36 minutes, 17 seconds
iteration of how we uh humanity are
36:23
36 minutes, 23 seconds
able to uh to manage massive amounts of data, which is really what this is all about. You know, we we we developed
36:32
36 minutes, 32 seconds
spoken language, then we developed written language. All of those are data management tools when you really get right down to it.
36:40
36 minutes, 40 seconds
um hell we developed mathematics which is a kind of data management in a sense I guess you could say uh and then we developed all these other methods of
36:48
36 minutes, 48 seconds
managing data we developed spreadsheets that's a form of data management and and all these other tools that we've you know we created encyclopedias eventually
36:56
36 minutes, 56 seconds
and and all these other systems by which we try to store knowledge and so really
37:05
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uh with the algorithms that we collectively know as as large language models or AI I uh I think you know there's always a
37:14
37 minutes, 14 seconds
learning process there to figure out like how how do I use this tool most effectively with the least amount of
37:22
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distortion and um I think you know some of us are we're all still trying to figure this out in our own way but
37:30
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that's what I think of it now I mean there's there's a lot there's certain downsides to u perhaps an overdependency
37:38
37 minutes, 38 seconds
on AI have no doubt about that. But the reality is um we're using this tool
37:46
37 minutes, 46 seconds
because we really can't help it because it's just there. And we are we are in a system by which we are constantly
37:54
37 minutes, 54 seconds
upgrading uh attempting to upgrade our ability to manage and handle information.
38:00
38 minutes
Ultimately, that's really what this is all about. We're in a datadriven world, a datadriven universe, and we are
38:07
38 minutes, 7 seconds
consumers of data and users of data, and AI is just simply another another tool along that that path. And I I suspect
38:15
38 minutes, 15 seconds
that there will be better and better versions of that AI as we move forward.
38:20
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And what that will do to our world is is the utopian nightmare. I can put
38:27
38 minutes, 27 seconds
those together that we'll all be uh living through. I have no doubt. Utopia, dystopia, we'll we'll just have to see.
38:33
38 minutes, 33 seconds
We will we'll see. Indeed. Now, a a lot of people these days, whether it be journalists or even some UFO researchers, have a lot of or they rely
38:43
38 minutes, 43 seconds
heavily maybe on sources and sometimes an anonymous sources and some people
38:50
38 minutes, 50 seconds
really don't like that. Was that always the case back in the 90s as well? Was it was were people using a lot of sources?
38:56
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And I mean, what was there a vetting process that may have been different to how it would be done now and things like that?
39:01
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It was just as tricky back then as it is today. And uh no, there were researchers. I mentioned Leonard
39:08
39 minutes, 8 seconds
Stringfield a little earlier. He uh quite a few of the dramatic cases that
39:15
39 minutes, 15 seconds
were given to him or told to him were from sources that had to remain anonymous. Uh this was in fact very
39:23
39 minutes, 23 seconds
frequently the case with Stringfield and it was something by the way that other researchers many of them criticized him for. They were they were very unhappy
39:31
39 minutes, 31 seconds
about this back in the late 70s early 80s. Stringfield's coming up with you know more and more of these cases. Some some security guarders saw dead bodies
39:39
39 minutes, 39 seconds
of an alien of dead alien bodies at Wright Patterson Air Force Base or all these types of things. And he was uh
39:46
39 minutes, 46 seconds
frequently criticized for not revealing those sources. String bell's answer was very simple. It's like look these people would not have come to me at all if they
39:56
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thought I was going to reveal their identity. That's just that is the reality and it was the reality then and
40:02
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it is the reality today. In uh the 1990s since you were mentioning that decade that was a a very uh potent decade for
40:11
40 minutes, 11 seconds
all kinds of leaks and rumors of all types late 80s early 90s I should say.
40:17
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Um, this was the time period in when the world first learned about a guy named Bob Lazar, you know, in the late '8s who
40:24
40 minutes, 24 seconds
said, "I went to this place called S4 and saw these, uh, this perfect flying saucer. It looked like a sports model to
40:30
40 minutes, 30 seconds
me. It was amazing." Well, uh, Lazar was one of these people who was, uh, you
40:38
40 minutes, 38 seconds
know, vehemently attacked for years by all kinds of research. Stanton Freriedman, who I I knew very well and
40:45
40 minutes, 45 seconds
appreciated Stan, but Stan, I have to just say, was was very very tough on Lazar unfairly. So, my own personal
40:53
40 minutes, 53 seconds
opinion. Um, but there was always these arguments over over like, you know, how reliable is this source or that source?
41:02
41 minutes, 2 seconds
And then you had um you had a fellow by the name of Bill Cooper, William Cooper, back in the early 90s particularly
41:09
41 minutes, 9 seconds
who was one of those who was instrumental in bringing up the the deeper, let's say, conspiratorial
41:17
41 minutes, 17 seconds
angles of of eupfology at the time. Uh Cooper's book to this day, Behold it, Behold a Pale Horse, is still one of the
41:25
41 minutes, 25 seconds
top selling UFO books in all of Amazon to to this day. Uh but what he did was talk about
41:33
41 minutes, 33 seconds
conspiracies as he understood them by the Bilderberg Group and talked about a group called the Jasons and a lot of these others. And Cooper's sources like,
41:43
41 minutes, 43 seconds
you know, people were asking, "Where the hell are you getting this from, man? How how do you know this information? Uh so
41:53
41 minutes, 53 seconds
and uh to let me just say Cooper had defenders but he also had a lot of lot of people in the research field who did
42:02
42 minutes, 2 seconds
not think highly of his research and did not think highly of his conclusions.
42:07
42 minutes, 7 seconds
Um and it always comes down to how do you trust sources or not? You know, back in the 1980s, we first encountered the
42:14
42 minutes, 14 seconds
MJ12 documents. [clears throat] Probably to this day, the most controversial document release that
42:21
42 minutes, 21 seconds
Eupfology has ever had. You know, seven seven pages of uh [clears throat] what alleged to be a presidential
42:29
42 minutes, 29 seconds
briefing document. Um and uh allegedly talks about, you know, crash of UFOs at
42:36
42 minutes, 36 seconds
Roswell and uh elsewhere. and um signed supposedly by Harry S. Truman and
42:44
42 minutes, 44 seconds
and there's a lot of you know and then there's these other documents that follow up on them which we call collectively the Majestic documents.
42:51
42 minutes, 51 seconds
They started coming out in the '9s and they are to this day still curated by Ryan Wood um as well as his late father
42:59
42 minutes, 59 seconds
Bob Wood when Bob was around. Uh the majestic documents are fascinating to watch, but they are of an unproven
43:06
43 minutes, 6 seconds
provenence, shall we say. And so there's always these arguments about is this real or am I just wasting my time by
43:14
43 minutes, 14 seconds
reading them. Uh so this is this is an old old story. Um and by the way, I am
43:21
43 minutes, 21 seconds
not necessarily saying that I think all of the majestic documents are fakes. I actually don't believe that they are they're all fakes, but but they are of
43:30
43 minutes, 30 seconds
unproven provenence and sources and they are therefore difficult to this day for
43:38
43 minutes, 38 seconds
many researchers to uh incorporate into their knowledge of the phenomenon like they just exclude it. So no, we we've been in a messy field for a long time.
43:50
43 minutes, 50 seconds
Long long time with lots of arguments, lots of egos, lots of uh fingerpointing, uh name calling. I mean, it's really
43:59
43 minutes, 59 seconds
never stopped. So, welcome to the jungle. [laughter] I mean, you mentioned there Bob Lazar and obviously he's associated with
44:08
44 minutes, 8 seconds
reverse engineering and and we've heard of, you know, the big cases like Roswell with crashes and and that, but was there ever in your research in the early days,
44:16
44 minutes, 16 seconds
was there ever any anything pointing towards there being a bigger overarching legacy program like we talk about today?
44:27
44 minutes, 27 seconds
Yes, I would say um again, I'm going to point to Stringfield's research on this because I really think his is the best.
44:33
44 minutes, 33 seconds
although not the only research but when you when you go into the many many cases that he collected
44:41
44 minutes, 41 seconds
um which unfortunately he never put together into a coherent like historical narrative. He never did that. And and so
44:49
44 minutes, 49 seconds
we're left with all of these different cases. But if you go through that, you see a powerful case for a legacy program
44:56
44 minutes, 56 seconds
to handle uh both tech alien technology and bodies both going back to the 1940s.
45:04
45 minutes, 4 seconds
I think I think this is something that some maybe I'll have to do this myself like do a kind of
45:12
45 minutes, 12 seconds
overarching comprehensive retelling of strength build story. it really needs to be done. Um
45:20
45 minutes, 20 seconds
maybe maybe that's a project I'll do one day. But suffice to say that
45:26
45 minutes, 26 seconds
he makes his his uh witnesses make a powerful case that right from the
45:34
45 minutes, 34 seconds
beginning of this phenomenon in that the military became aware in the 1940s Wright Patterson Air Force Base was probably the key node in the whole
45:43
45 minutes, 43 seconds
system of secrecy. So that bodies and tech went there first.
45:49
45 minutes, 49 seconds
um in later years not necessarily there first but initially yes everything I
45:55
45 minutes, 55 seconds
think went to right Pat and uh there was a system in place for this and and it's described by many different people uh
46:04
46 minutes, 4 seconds
beyond Strainfield you know um researcher James Clarkson who uh James James is still around I don't know how active he is now but he he interviewed
46:14
46 minutes, 14 seconds
one amazing lady years ago before she died. Her name was June Crane
46:20
46 minutes, 20 seconds
and she was a um kind of a senior admin assistant or admin administrative assistant at Wright Patterson like
46:29
46 minutes, 29 seconds
secretary but someone who was there for a while who knew a lot and she was exposed to a lot and toward the end of
46:37
46 minutes, 37 seconds
her life and she was talking with James I think it was in the late 90s. Um the book is called Tell My Story and it's it's an easy download. You can read the
46:46
46 minutes, 46 seconds
ebook. It's super easy to read. Uh, fascinating. But she also talks about uh the specific procedures in place at a
46:54
46 minutes, 54 seconds
place like Wright Patterson Air Force Base to receive the bodies, what it was like. Um, she did see uh certain
47:04
47 minutes, 4 seconds
artifacts I believe and and certainly lots of documents and spoke to a lot of the individuals there uh about the
47:12
47 minutes, 12 seconds
subject. And if people are incredulous that that a a mere secretary would get knowledge of this, well, they should
47:18
47 minutes, 18 seconds
think again. It was the 1950s. And I'm not saying that there were no secrecy protocols that were in place
47:26
47 minutes, 26 seconds
back then, there were. But every indication that I have when I look at the culture of the 50s is that that that
47:34
47 minutes, 34 seconds
culture of secrecy was not as tight as it became later. I think a lot of people talked quietly.
47:41
47 minutes, 41 seconds
Um, and you know there was a sense of patriotism that all of those people had.
47:48
47 minutes, 48 seconds
So when they encountered a secret, they were not inclined to just reveal it. But a number of these people did so toward
47:56
47 minutes, 56 seconds
the end of their lives. There were a lot of uh like deathbed type confessions that different researchers got. None of these were famous, but they were usually
48:04
48 minutes, 4 seconds
written about and and got a limited very limited circulation among researchers back then. But um I forget what your your original question was there Vinnie
48:13
48 minutes, 13 seconds
but I I guess I would just say there was definitely a legacy program like looking at the old early research
48:22
48 minutes, 22 seconds
I think absolutely there was a very strong legacy program also you know the books of um Stanton Freriedman um Kevin
48:31
48 minutes, 31 seconds
Randall Don Schmidt uh Tom Kerry you know writing about crash retrievals as they did uh have a lot to say on this as
48:40
48 minutes, 40 seconds
well. And I think those books collectively make a very strong case for a legacy program as well.
48:46
48 minutes, 46 seconds
And was there a particular era that you can maybe think of where the aerospace and private industry really came into
48:53
48 minutes, 53 seconds
that conversation as well early on? I I believe um there's one organization known as the Battel
49:01
49 minutes, 1 second
Memorial Institute. They are also uh near Dayton, Ohio.
49:08
49 minutes, 8 seconds
And they um I I think to this day, if I'm not mistaken, but certainly for years and years, had perhaps the most
49:15
49 minutes, 15 seconds
advanced material science um capability maybe in the world. These are high level experts what they do and
49:24
49 minutes, 24 seconds
they have always done a a great amount of contract work for the United States Air Force and there has been I think
49:31
49 minutes, 31 seconds
very good research for many many years indicating that Battel acquired uh ro the Roswell wreckage and
49:40
49 minutes, 40 seconds
used that um perhaps to create a a material known as nitanol which is you know when you hear about the Roswell material that
49:47
49 minutes, 47 seconds
just crumbles and then folds right back into shape with no wrinkles. Well, Nitanol is said to be derived from that.
49:54
49 minutes, 54 seconds
Uh there actually is a a book that deals with the Battel connection to Roswell and to industry. Um I have it on my
50:04
50 minutes, 4 seconds
shelf. I I don't I don't want to get up and walk across the room to get it and I cannot remember its name, but it um it
50:11
50 minutes, 11 seconds
does describe a scientist named John Center. less famous center who was involved at Patel who spoke uh he had
50:19
50 minutes, 19 seconds
access to this stuff in the late 50s early 60s and did talk about it like we have no idea where this stuff came from.
50:26
50 minutes, 26 seconds
It was off the charts advanced and and on and on and on. It says you know all the talk was this was a flying saucer from an actual UFO. [snorts] So there
50:35
50 minutes, 35 seconds
there's a not an open and shut case but not a bad case either to indicate that Battel was involved. other private
50:42
50 minutes, 42 seconds
contractors as well. There has always been talk about Loheed Martin. There has always been talk about Northrup um and
50:50
50 minutes, 50 seconds
Boeing and General Dynamics and Rathon uh and uh SCAK special applications um
50:59
50 minutes, 59 seconds
sic that stand that's out of that's you know NSA West um run for a while by
51:05
51 minutes, 5 seconds
Bobby Rayinman and um very very close to defense contractors uh excuse me very close to the Pentagon
51:14
51 minutes, 14 seconds
and has long been rumored to have connections with UFO Tech. Uh I I think it it certainly must.
51:23
51 minutes, 23 seconds
So, um I think contractors got into the game immediately because if you're the if
51:31
51 minutes, 31 seconds
you're the US Army um and you you've acquired this technology, so let's say you're running the army.
51:41
51 minutes, 41 seconds
Well, you know, you have very smart people working in the US Army. But if you want to um
51:49
51 minutes, 49 seconds
if you want to replicate this or study it or analyze it, you're you're going to have to shop it out to private industry.
51:56
51 minutes, 56 seconds
Like you you can't not do that. Um they're the people who have the resources, they have the scientists,
52:05
52 minutes, 5 seconds
uh they have the capability of doing and they're the people who make things for you to begin with. So, and and plus when you retire, you're probably going to go
52:13
52 minutes, 13 seconds
work for them at a at a really nice salary. So, you're going to have a very good relationship with with private industry and you're going to shop out
52:21
52 minutes, 21 seconds
your technology and your hardware to them. And I think that's exactly what happened early on with this with this
52:28
52 minutes, 28 seconds
technology. Uh it's too powerful to leave alone. I mean, the United States in the late 40s and early
52:37
52 minutes, 37 seconds
50s was certainly not interested in sharing its nuclear technology with anyone. You know, up until 1949, the US
52:44
52 minutes, 44 seconds
had a monopoly of atomic bombs. Uh we knew that the Russians were working on it. We knew that the Russians had spies
52:51
52 minutes, 51 seconds
trying to get our atomic secrets. We were certainly not willing to share it though with anyone. Uh so imagine the same thing with alien tech.
53:01
53 minutes, 1 second
you would you would definitely not want anyone to have access to that tech. You would do everything possible to exploit
53:08
53 minutes, 8 seconds
it for your own uh your own understanding of it, your own knowledge, your own benefit, create your own weapons, you know, all of this. And so
53:17
53 minutes, 17 seconds
this would be an extremely important um unstated part of the Cold War,
53:24
53 minutes, 24 seconds
this uh kind of covert research into alien tech and weapons development. And now we are starting to hear uh we've
53:32
53 minutes, 32 seconds
heard from people like David Grush, you know, multiple times um that this in fact is an important aspect of what is going on
53:40
53 minutes, 40 seconds
behind the scenes. And I'm not even saying that Grush is the ultimate authority here, but I am saying he's
53:50
53 minutes, 50 seconds
someone with a a good classified background who is at least in a decent position to make this statement. And I
53:58
53 minutes, 58 seconds
think that very much agrees with my own conclusions that I've come to over many years and probably other researchers too.
54:05
54 minutes, 5 seconds
Sure. Sure. And what's the disclosure effort been looked like for you over the years? Disclosure has just banded about
54:12
54 minutes, 12 seconds
every day in all sorts of ways, but was that always a thing? I mean, we have a lot of sort of citizen-led efforts uh to kind of push for
54:20
54 minutes, 20 seconds
disclosure now. What was it like back in the 90s?
54:24
54 minutes, 24 seconds
Uh it was a constant drum beat. You know, it every decade had a uh kind of a disclosure moment where people thought it might just happen. Might just happen.
54:35
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Back in the 50s, 1952, there was a massive wave of these flying saucers, including two weekends in a row over the
54:44
54 minutes, 44 seconds
over the capital in Washington DC. Uh air traffic controllers on the second weekend really thought, "Oh my god, this
54:51
54 minutes, 51 seconds
might just be the time when we have to make an announcement." Like, so that was 1952. And then in the 1960s there was
54:58
54 minutes, 58 seconds
another crescendo of UFO sightings that culminated uh with there was one day of congressional hearings in 1966 and
55:06
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another one in ' 68 and then there was a contract with the University of Colorado uh to do a formal scientific study of this and and at that time there were
55:15
55 minutes, 15 seconds
people who thought okay Colorado is going to take care of this. We're going to find out the truth. Well the Colorado study had its own problems and no we did
55:23
55 minutes, 23 seconds
not find out the truth. But then came the 1970s when the Freedom of Information Act was strengthened and led to uh at the time what seemed to be like
55:32
55 minutes, 32 seconds
an avalanche of declassified UFO documents. So that by the late '7s some researchers were
55:40
55 minutes, 40 seconds
openly wondering like are we going if we shake this tree enough and enough documents fall out are we going to get
55:47
55 minutes, 47 seconds
the magical document that proves a true UFO reality and cover up? And I mean
55:54
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there were many documents that when you take them together make a very strong case for this. But you know again
56:01
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there was this hope that we might just be able to make a breakthrough. Uh during the 1980s it was a decade that was more of a decade of of kind of unauthorized leaks and things like that.
56:13
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You know the MJ12 documents and then Bob Lazar at the end of the decade. But then in the 90s there was a genuine uh
56:20
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crescendo. You know, the Roswell case uh was picking up a lot of steam in the late 80s, early 90s. People forget this.
56:27
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We think of Roswell like, "Oh, we've always known about Roswell." No, we haven't always known about Roswell.
56:32
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Roswell was forgotten for many decades after it occurred. Totally forgotten.
56:38
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Um, and it really only started picking up steam in the 1980s, and that was slow. So, by the early 90s, by then
56:46
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there was a fair amount of public discussion about Roswell. There was the concern
56:54
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uh in the air force. I I believe that too much emphasis on this was probably not a welcome development and the air
57:02
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force did its own uh made its own maneuvers to kind of kneecap the whole Roswell movement which they did quite successfully. This was when the Air
57:09
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Force put out their own reports in 1994 and then in 907 about Roswell being first a mogul
57:18
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balloon that is a a balloon test to detect when the Russians would have their own atomic bomb and we send up
57:25
57 minutes, 25 seconds
these balloons. That all that is true, but to pin Roswell on that was kind of laughable. Uh to this day, I think it
57:32
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was a a bad joke, but people still some of them take it seriously.
57:37
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So there was this but they they did that because it was a crescendo and this belief that the UFO the argument of a
57:45
57 minutes, 45 seconds
UFO conspiracy was gaining ground and and people wondered like are we are we going to make a breakthrough here.
57:54
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Well, it didn't happen. And then by the early 2000s, you have a more formal disclosure movement with the word
58:02
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disclosure now being used pretty much for the first time. Um Steven Greer, I'm going to guess, was really the person
58:10
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who brought that word out into prominence and he wrote a book by that name called Disclosure.
58:17
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And uh it's actually a very good book because it's interviews with a lot of very interesting people that um and that
58:25
58 minutes, 25 seconds
all culminated in the disclosure press conference of 2001 which uh you know at the time and even in
58:34
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retrospect was very much a big deal in the UFO field. Uh again the idea was well we're going to force this issue open. We're gonna come out with a very
58:42
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strong statement of factual truths about this phenomenon and we're going to force the United States government to make an
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58 minutes, 50 seconds
admission about this. And and we've seen after that there were a a non-stop
58:56
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series of of of conferences and events that were geared toward disclosure. Uh Steven Basset, very good friend of mine,
59:05
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many people know Steve, organized the so-called X-conferences for years and years. I spoke at every single one of those from 2004 uh until that ran its
59:14
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course after 2010 uh all in Washington DC all with the uh intention of getting
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the attention of Congress and then probably I think Steve's culminating event might be the citizens hearing on
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disclosure in 2013 which again I was very much a part of that where uh certain retired members of Congress and
59:37
59 minutes, 37 seconds
the Senate uh agreed to convene uh a week long series of of of testimony
59:46
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uh for people to speak to them about the UFO reality.
59:51
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And it was a very powerful event. And that was in 2013. That was only four years before the 2017 articles. Uh it
59:58
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got nowhere, got absolutely nowhere. And the Washington Post, I remember, just ridiculed it. I mean, really shamefully ridiculed it. And uh and so it went, you
1:00:08
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know. So this this attempt has always been happening. What has changed is that
1:00:17
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people now because we have connectivity, we have the web, we've got this means of instantly communicating. Um I I really
1:00:24
1 hour, 24 seconds
think you can see the results of that that it has been able to generate a stronger grassroots kind of momentum
1:00:34
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than had been the case before. I think that's a key difference that we're seeing now as opposed to then. Um,
1:00:44
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yeah, I I think it might just be as simple as that. Like it's it's just become difficult to contain
1:00:51
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the the growing number of voices now that are talking about this.
1:00:56
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So, uh, although what you still see is that we're in a strange situation where
1:01:05
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we have this establishment media that a lot of people don't even pay attention to. I mean, who really watches TV news?
1:01:15
1 hour, 1 minute, 15 seconds
Who watches whether it's CNN or Fox or BBC news? Like, who really pays attention to that stuff? But, but there
1:01:23
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are people who do. And the power system does. And and I think actually those legacy media
1:01:31
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systems have more power than a lot of people still want to recognize. Yes, we're in an era of podcast. We're in an era of YouTube and and those get way
1:01:39
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more views than what the establishment gets. Nevertheless, I'll give you an example. Last summer,
1:01:47
1 hour, 1 minute, 47 seconds
the Wall Street Journal put out two just excraably bad articles on UAP.
1:01:55
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Terrible. Truly terrible.
1:01:58
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And I think it would have been totally forgotten except for the fact that if you're the Wall Street Journal, you know who your audience is? It's not ordinary people.
1:02:09
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Your audience are the power elite. Your audience are members of Congress. Your audience are those those people. And
1:02:16
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those articles were designed, I believe, to intimidate members of Congress in advance of the upcoming UAP vote again,
1:02:23
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the UAP um, you know, disclosure act, which was always coming up every year.
1:02:28
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And I think it was just an act of intimidation. I think it worked, too, by the way. So, so the legacy media is
1:02:34
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still very powerful. Um, and it seems to me that,
1:02:42
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you know, our community, we we still we need to keep growing our grassroots voice. Absolutely. But I think it's a
1:02:52
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mistake if we just write off and ignore the legacy media as unimportant. I think they're actually quite important. and
1:03:00
1 hour, 3 minutes
uh getting dissident factions from within then or within that culture on board would be a
1:03:09
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very good win and and I think just like within the power structure itself so too in the legacy media there there probably
1:03:18
1 hour, 3 minutes, 18 seconds
are dissident factions that exist. uh no culture is monolithic. Not not the dying US empire, not uh its political system
1:03:27
1 hour, 3 minutes, 27 seconds
and not its media. So I think we might be well served to um source out
1:03:36
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any sympathetic voices from that. you know, uh, one good example was Tucker Carlson when he was over at Fox, uh, before they obviously they fired him.
1:03:46
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But uh it it was quite remarkable for for having someone of that level of stature
1:03:53
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and international uh sway from a major
1:04:00
1 hour, 4 minutes
global media entity which Fox is and to be talking the way he has the way he did
1:04:07
1 hour, 4 minutes, 7 seconds
then as about UFOs as as something real and something serious. That was incredible. You know, some people love Tucker Carlson, some people hate him,
1:04:15
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but my goodness, uh, the impact that he had while at Fox, I think he still has
1:04:23
1 hour, 4 minutes, 23 seconds
impact now, but it's a little different now. You know, he's now he's private.
1:04:28
1 hour, 4 minutes, 28 seconds
Now he he's influential, but when he was at Fox saying the things he did, I think that was incredibly powerful. And there's
1:04:36
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really no one in the major legacy media that is like that. But it's not saying it can't be the case in the future. So I
1:04:44
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think that type of thing would be very important to develop.
1:04:48
1 hour, 4 minutes, 48 seconds
Absolutely. Yeah. Really would. It really would. Now Richard, before I let you go, I suppose you know we've mentioned or you've mentioned a lot of great names historically there, great
1:04:56
1 hour, 4 minutes, 56 seconds
authors, great books. So a lot to give people watching who may want to go and do do something and and look into this
1:05:02
1 hour, 5 minutes, 2 seconds
this history that that's so rich. But if you had any advice, any dos or don'ts in particular to anyone who really wanted to get into researching this, maybe more
1:05:12
1 hour, 5 minutes, 12 seconds
from a historical point of view, what would you say to them? Wonderful question, Vinnie. Thank you for asking it.
1:05:18
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Um, you know, when when we are especially in an era now where there's a tendency
1:05:26
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at least in some places, I think for people to talk about your truth and my truth and this truth and that truth. I don't think it's a very healthy attitude
1:05:35
1 hour, 5 minutes, 35 seconds
about truth. Uh the reason we argue about things like the Kennedy assassination or 911 or UFOs is because
1:05:42
1 hour, 5 minutes, 42 seconds
we all in or or COVID, right? We all assume there is a truth there and we're all trying to understand what that truth
1:05:49
1 hour, 5 minutes, 49 seconds
is. So, so um the pursuit of of what is true is very important and for that it's
1:05:58
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it's critical for any researcher of this phenomenon to know their facts and I I know it sounds it's can be boring it can
1:06:07
1 hour, 6 minutes, 7 seconds
be like a lot of tedious work but knowing like a simple thing what happened then what happened then what
1:06:15
1 hour, 6 minutes, 15 seconds
happened and then what happened and on and on and on like that is important to know. Um it's important to have a very
1:06:25
1 hour, 6 minutes, 25 seconds
good grasp of the historical narrative of this subject. The the subject did not start
1:06:32
1 hour, 6 minutes, 32 seconds
with the 2004 tic tac UFO which we often feel like when people talk about it it's
1:06:40
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like wow that was our first UFO sighting. Well, no. There was an entire 20th century of incredible,
1:06:47
1 hour, 6 minutes, 47 seconds
monumental, shocking UFO encounters uh by private civilians and by military people in small groups, in large groups.
1:06:56
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I mean, you name it. So, it is it is a very good idea for any would be serious
1:07:05
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researcher like you've got to learn the foundation. what is the foundation of knowledge of this subject? Uh, one thing
1:07:14
1 hour, 7 minutes, 14 seconds
that I I actually I haven't done this publicly, but I did for my website privately is I'm in a an effort to redefine eupfology
1:07:22
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uh uh as a as a whole. And let me just say I'll I'll do a uh a public treatment of this in the near future. I believe
1:07:31
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what constitutes eupfology is many many many things.
1:07:40
1 hour, 7 minutes, 40 seconds
Euphology is not just one thing. It is, you know, for me it was initially the study of the the cover up and the
1:07:49
1 hour, 7 minutes, 49 seconds
politics of it and and that's still perhaps more than the other areas still draws me the most. But there are many
1:07:56
1 hour, 7 minutes, 56 seconds
other areas of this. First of all, there's the case history just like knowing what are the what is the foundational
1:08:04
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what are the foundational UFO cases that we have. There are many of them. You can you can start with pardon me. You can start with a small core of them or you
1:08:12
1 hour, 8 minutes, 12 seconds
can start with a large go larger and larger. Uh but then there's looking at this um from the perspective of human
1:08:20
1 hour, 8 minutes, 20 seconds
psychology and sociology. There's understanding this from the perspective of how do you uh study this
1:08:29
1 hour, 8 minutes, 29 seconds
scientifically? How what are the methodologies that one should employ in researching a fresh UFO case? you know, the stuff
1:08:38
1 hour, 8 minutes, 38 seconds
that like Mufon, you know, talks about doing. Uh there's the science of these objects. How do they do what they do?
1:08:49
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Like that's that's a rabbit hole you can go down for your entire lifetime. How do these objects operate? On what
1:08:55
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principles do they do what they they seem to do? Uh there there's something that
1:09:03
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I've been more and more drawn to over the last five even more than five years,
1:09:11
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10 years, is um what you might call xenology. Xenology with an X, which might be the the study of these other
1:09:19
1 hour, 9 minutes, 19 seconds
beings in an anthropological manner. In other words,
1:09:26
1 hour, 9 minutes, 26 seconds
my own uh my own sense is that we do have an ability to speculate intelligently about these beings. And it
1:09:34
1 hour, 9 minutes, 34 seconds
doesn't mean that we have to anthropomorphize everything, but my own speculation at this point is that there may very well be
1:09:43
1 hour, 9 minutes, 43 seconds
certain uh I don't want to say universal paths that life forms develop around in the universe, but but maybe something
1:09:51
1 hour, 9 minutes, 51 seconds
like that. there may be certain guidelines that that life forms, especially intelligent ones, may have in common.
1:09:59
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In any case, I think the study of their behavior, even if only seen through the behavior of the craft themselves or or
1:10:08
1 hour, 10 minutes, 8 seconds
um encounters that people claim to have with these beings, whether through abduction or other forms of contact, like these are these are fair game at
1:10:17
1 hour, 10 minutes, 17 seconds
least to consider. uh when we talk about these other beings and speaking of abductions that's a whole other aspect
1:10:24
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of this phenomenon that uh you could spend and many have spent a lifetime engaging in u and if not always
1:10:32
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abduction then some form of encounter that we are that people claim to have.
1:10:37
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These are tricky areas because u one thing that comes to mind is a certain amount of cognitive manipulation that
1:10:44
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goes on when we have an encounter with these beings.
1:10:48
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Um, some people don't like to to acknowledge that we have cognitive manipulation. It's like, oh, that's a copout. I don't think it's a copout. I think I think these beings have the
1:10:57
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ability to to screw with us, to mess with our minds. Um, but anyway, as far as advice,
1:11:06
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you know, one thing that I I hope to do before too long, I mean, I'm I'm in the middle of
1:11:12
1 hour, 11 minutes, 12 seconds
my USO uh trilogy here, but I think it would be helpful for myself and then anyone else is interested to kind of lay
1:11:21
1 hour, 11 minutes, 21 seconds
out the the terrain of what could constitute euphology. And that that's something that I will be doing, I think,
1:11:27
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in the near future. So, You know, you want to understand like what is this subject? What is its
1:11:34
1 hour, 11 minutes, 34 seconds
foundation? What are the what's the primary cases that I need to know about?
1:11:39
1 hour, 11 minutes, 39 seconds
What are the primary arguments pro and con that I should acquaint myself with
1:11:46
1 hour, 11 minutes, 46 seconds
before before writing anything. You know, this is not
1:11:55
1 hour, 11 minutes, 55 seconds
a subject that has a quick easy learning curve.
1:11:58
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I'm you know this as well as anyone. You dive into this and then you my fond foolish belief in 1994 was I'll
1:12:08
1 hour, 12 minutes, 8 seconds
spend I'm going to spend three months into this subject. I'm going to figure it out and move on. That's literally what I told myself uh all those years
1:12:18
1 hour, 12 minutes, 18 seconds
ago. And that was that was quite naive on my part because I I learned I soon learned that this is a
1:12:27
1 hour, 12 minutes, 27 seconds
deeply engaging subject that that needs to be taken seriously. You need to treat it with respect.
1:12:36
1 hour, 12 minutes, 36 seconds
It's like imagine you're going on a a spiritual awakening journey in like
1:12:43
1 hour, 12 minutes, 43 seconds
Tibet, you know? So you you go all the way up there, you climb the mountain, you go to a cave or a monastery or
1:12:51
1 hour, 12 minutes, 51 seconds
wherever that you're going, and you you see the bald guy sitting cross-legged and he's meditating [laughter] and you go up to him and you say, "I demand to
1:12:59
1 hour, 12 minutes, 59 seconds
know everything right now." Uh well, it doesn't work like that. That's not how knowledge comes, right?
1:13:07
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You have to be ready for it. You need to do the work. You don't just walk up to Beethoven and say, "Teach me how to write a symphony like you do." Like,
1:13:16
1 hour, 13 minutes, 16 seconds
it's not going to work. This is a subject that requires attention. It requires
1:13:24
1 hour, 13 minutes, 24 seconds
uh humility and and the recognition that don't go into this thinking you've got all the answers.
1:13:32
1 hour, 13 minutes, 32 seconds
That is probably a mistake. So take the time, be willing to be wrong more more
1:13:38
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times than one and be careful and and also one thing that I I do like to say a
1:13:46
1 hour, 13 minutes, 46 seconds
lot is uh don't react immediately to things like in other words there's there's always something going on in this field.
1:13:56
1 hour, 13 minutes, 56 seconds
uh and especially if if you have a name in this field as you do as I do uh
1:14:04
1 hour, 14 minutes, 4 seconds
there's always pressure on on those of us who have an audience have to respond to to the latest thing
1:14:13
1 hour, 14 minutes, 13 seconds
to have a take and to you know to be smart in front of all these other people and and say and I I think that's a a really that's a dangerous road to go
1:14:21
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down. It's like you're better off waiting. Take a breath.
1:14:27
1 hour, 14 minutes, 27 seconds
Do a little background. Don't react to every little thing that comes up because all all you'll be doing then it's like
1:14:36
1 hour, 14 minutes, 36 seconds
you just be like a pingpong ball in a wind tunnel. You just be bouncing off the walls with no with no direction of your own. First of all, you're going to be reacting to everything.
1:14:45
1 hour, 14 minutes, 45 seconds
And that's not a good place to be. You know, one of my favorite writers, I have a picture of him on the wall, Ralph Waldo Emerson. I love Emerson. He lived
1:14:53
1 hour, 14 minutes, 53 seconds
almost 200 years ago. He had big rocking sideburns and uh and he wrote a lot of articles and essays that are kind of
1:15:00
1 hour, 15 minutes
cool. And one thing Emerson said was he said like at a certain point you just got to put the books away. At a certain
1:15:09
1 hour, 15 minutes, 9 seconds
point you have to develop your own ideas.
1:15:12
1 hour, 15 minutes, 12 seconds
And it's true. It's like at a certain point you don't want to just be reacting
1:15:19
1 hour, 15 minutes, 19 seconds
to everything that's coming at you which comes at you at a you know thousand miles per hour now with every single
1:15:26
1 hour, 15 minutes, 26 seconds
notification on our phone and and maybe we don't want to react to everything.
1:15:32
1 hour, 15 minutes, 32 seconds
So, I'd say in the research field, slower is better. Uh, caution is better
1:15:42
1 hour, 15 minutes, 42 seconds
than recklessness. Care is better than just having to race to be the first one to get something out. That's my own
1:15:49
1 hour, 15 minutes, 49 seconds
opinion. And uh you know, slow and steady is is a better a better policy
1:15:57
1 hour, 15 minutes, 57 seconds
than than rushing to get everything out on time, which if I can put a good face on it, that might be why my USO books are taking so damn long to get out. I
1:16:06
1 hour, 16 minutes, 6 seconds
was going to get them all out. I thought in 2025. I honestly thought that at the beginning of of this year, and I and I
1:16:13
1 hour, 16 minutes, 13 seconds
realize that was a a very unrealistic goal on my part. Uh, all the the cases are written, got them all done, but it
1:16:22
1 hour, 16 minutes, 22 seconds
requires more than just having the cases done because I want these to be published and I want them to read beautifully and I and I don't want to have to uh fiddle around with them once
1:16:30
1 hour, 16 minutes, 30 seconds
they're published either. I want them be to be really perfect. So, it takes a little time. So, um, yeah, no, don't rush, don't react,
1:16:39
1 hour, 16 minutes, 39 seconds
don't feel like you have to have the answer to everything. If you don't know something, three words, I don't know.
1:16:44
1 hour, 16 minutes, 44 seconds
Really useful. Really useful. Like we don't have to be the expert all the time even though the temptation is there.
1:16:52
1 hour, 16 minutes, 52 seconds
It's always there and we just have to remember like we don't know everything.
1:16:56
1 hour, 16 minutes, 56 seconds
Yeah. Some very wise words there. I hope everyone picks up on them. Richard, thank you so much. I really enjoyed this. I really enjoyed putting emphasis
1:17:04
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back on that historical aspect of the phenomena. So, so I really appreciate your input on that.
1:17:09
1 hour, 17 minutes, 9 seconds
I'm I'm always enjoying hanging out with you, Vinnie, and uh I'll be happy to do this again with you in the future.
1:17:15
1 hour, 17 minutes, 15 seconds
Absolutely. when the next volume of the USO book comes out, we'll definitely have to jump back into that uh that area of the
1:17:22
1 hour, 17 minutes, 22 seconds
I'm hoping I'm hoping in a month. I I am hoping. I mean, I I keep saying this and I shouldn't say it, but uh I'm I'm working on it. It's really close.
1:17:31
1 hour, 17 minutes, 31 seconds
Wonderful. Thank you so much, Richard. Thank you. My best to your audience. Thank you.