https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sd4uQDuQmH4
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Headline edition July 8th, 1947.
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The Army Air Forces has announced that a flying disc has been found and is now in the possession of the army.
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However, there have been a certain percentage of this volume of reports that have been made by credible
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observers of relatively incredible things.
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Uh there is very compelling evidence that we uh we may not be alone. Whatever that means.
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There's a whole fleet of them. Look on the NSA. They dude.
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American public and global public finally understands UFOs are real.
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Non-human exotic origin vehicles that have either landed or crashed.
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Jack, how are you? I'm fine. Good afternoon.
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Good to see you again. Thank you so much for joining me today.
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Right, Jack, I'd like to start off by discussing the Capella database. Uh, you know, this UAP data warehouse you
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created during ORAP. So, in Forbidden Science 7, you describe Capella,
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how Capella was subsequently altered and repurposed. Do you believe the original complete data set could contain
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information that would change our understanding of the UAP phenomenon?
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Well, um, as you know, uh, you know, I'm trained as information scientist and I've been
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using computers for a long time. first in astronomy and and then in in other areas and in
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investment and especially I started very early cataloging
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UFO cases starting from the French files in the 70s 1970s
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and when I I first met with Dr. Heck, I had a essentially a a catalog. In those
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days, you didn't talk about databases quite yet, but I had a catalog of about
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3,000 filtered cases from Europe, a lot of it from France, some of it from
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a French official project, which predated the project they have now,
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which by the way, I'm I'm going they've asked me to rejoin. So I will be going back to France in a couple of weeks and
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spending time with them because it's officially you know recognized again and
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that project is is being expanded. There are actually two projects in in France
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and I've been asked to uh to serve on on both of them. So I I hope to make a
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contribution in linking with research in the US and other places because as you
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know it's a global problem. It's not a California problem. It's not an Iowa problem. It's not a Canada problem.
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Problem is all over the world. So we are not going to understand it until you capture that. And that's what you know that the computer can be good at.
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You can look at differences from so in uh the this the 80s 1980s
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1990s uh it had expanded to the point where it couldn't be contained in just one file
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and you know I'm going I'm going back to that because it's it's important you cannot really put the uh the pilot cases
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alongside side cases from farmers or cab drivers or truck drivers and and or the
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the rest of the military because the instruments are different. So uh to you
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should not mix it together uh at least as a first step and then you can expand it into larger structures. So
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it's called the data warehouse and it's well known in in business.
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You know General Motors doesn't put engine parts in the same catalog as they put you know the marketing of Kadia.
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Okay. So uh those are well known and I've been practicing this you know in my
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profession my regular work for for a long time. So when the bass project
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started you know sponsored as you know in in Nevada under Mr. Bigalow
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uh the um I transferred my my assignment
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was to transfer that whole system which is Capella
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uh to the project. So, and we we hired
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uh a team of about 40 people including translators from French,
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Spanish, Portuguese and Russian who started working with that data and
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expanding it according to a system that I had designed.
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Okay. at that point, you know, they spent two years doing that and part of the team was working on the on the data,
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part of the team was reinvestigating uh older cases and so on. So that is
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after a couple of years. My plan was that I would re-engage with the team
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which by then had learned you know there is a misconception that you can take a
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very skilled scientist in you know nuclear engineering and uh ask him to
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work on UFOs. Well, he with the best intentions. It's going to take her or
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him a couple of years to become familiar with how weird the data is and and with
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what the questions are. And uh we see that now with you know pilots testifying before Congress and they talk about
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their instruments and so on that somebody on the ground wouldn't see that or somebody on the ship wouldn't see that. They would see something else.
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Okay. So you you need to combine this instrumental data with human data and
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with everything else. That's what we are trying to achieve. So um by the and then the project was cut off at that point.
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So I never had a chance to come back and um apply the two levels of AI that I had
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designed and tested on my own copies of the old files.
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Uh but the sightings were the same, you know, same witnesses, same places and so on. I mean, I have it and I I can still
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understand French and uh I understand Spanish pretty well.
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I I don't speak it quite fluently, but I I do read it, you know, commonly. So,
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and the rest of it you can always figure out. So, um that's what I'm doing now on
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my own essentially. You know I have this computer is much more powerful than anything I had even five years ago and I
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have a lot of resources here I can I can harness to work on that data warehouse.
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Um the recent books uh have talked about uh you know the state of the the warehouse
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at Bass and now what what is called OSAP and uh you know it's u been published
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that there is we had 260,000 cases uh from all countries reduced to a
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single structure that went somewhere and I'm no longer cleared for the project.
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So I don't know. Oh, I I shouldn't say where I think it went, but there are
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relatively few people who work at that level with information structures. So I
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and that and that was her purpose. So I can't really complain. in the purpose of the the problem is that if they had
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waited two or three years, they would have had a filtered database.
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You don't need a database of 260,000 cases to do science. You know, the Lancet and
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Nature publish scientific papers based on
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150 patients. Okay. or 150 recordings of something. So
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my point was let's reduce it to a kernel of really verified data to which AI has
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been applied in two different two different modes which I'm using now
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uh and that will not happen. So essentially what they have
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my colleagues is a what's known in the back room of you know computing centers
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as a bucket of bits. It's a bucket of bits and I know they are going around the world um
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borrowing or you know getting other databases that go into the whole thing
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and that's fine but it's a bucket of bits. The structure is what we need to discover
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now. Uh that's that's where we are today. That's today.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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What I have is Capella plus, you know, because I've already applied one level
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of AI and now I've restructured it. Uh I don't have a team of 50 people I can
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send, you know, to reinvestigate those cases. uh but uh there are
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critical problems that I can that are smaller that I can study on my own and
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that's what I'm doing and I don't need any money which saves a lot of time and
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I don't need a sponsor and I'm doing this and so will you release any findings or
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some of the data once you've worked through Yeah.
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Um we we've started to publish the the place where I want to start.
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You know, you you cannot take the database the way it is and rush up the steps of the academ of sciences in
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Washington. I've been there on other projects. But um you cannot do that and say look guys you know you should you should look at UFOs.
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They they have looked at it and they decided not to do anything. So uh
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that's the point where we are you know collectively with scientists and with the universities and with the academic
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community in spite of all the efforts you know that we've done collectively
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with Dr. Nolan and Dr. globe and other universities and so on. Same thing
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in France. So um what what I want to do is start from a
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few cases that have been completely adjudicated. As you may know, I published a book
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uh called Trinity on three cases. So the the trinity case um of 1945,
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the Soro case and the Valencol case. All three cases have been studied in detail
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for many years and have been adjudicated as unidentified.
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So, and we've we've published data on all of them. Um, and then in addition
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with Dr. Nolan at Stanford and with some teams and of researchers, very active
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researchers in France, we've managed to publish two papers in the number one
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aerospace review in the world. So this is not in you know the flying sourc review or the the new journal although
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those are fine you know they've helped us a lot along the way but but this is
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you know the official journal of the aerospace community worldwide China
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India great and the US and Europe so Um
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those two other cases uh include the the case in Arkansas in uh 19 um
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1967 that I I
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initiated uh and initiated the study had been reported to the air force and it involves a an object in a forest at
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night during it was raining was close to Christmas. The temperature was close to
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zero and there was this light in a clearing that the witness could see and
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he did a quick estimate in his in his mind. uh he was a professor of atomic physics
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and he determined that the thing had the power of uh if you want Diablo Canyon of a of a modern nuclear plant.
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So um at least one reactor in in a nuclear plant. Sure.
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Um and so he got his family out of there
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and he wrote a re report to the air force and in those days I was working with Dr. pilot in Chicago reviewing all
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the Air Force files which I did over four years and I still have that five of refined data you know selected data from
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the air force files um convince the air force that this was not you know an explainable case and then Dr. Condan became involved and Dr.
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Cond Dr. Compton sent two scientists there to meet the witness go back and to
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the forest. It's an industrial forest belongs to wire houses. So there is no traffic through it at night and it's very carefully watched.
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Uh and so we did the we redid the calculations. The Air Force to their
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credit joined us and redid the calculations also and they found an
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estimate of power that was twice what the professor had calculated on the spot. Okay.
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So did Dr. Condan. Remember that Dr. Condan um was with Dr.
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Oppenheimimer at Trinity.
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So those things go in circles sometimes. Yeah.
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And so everybody has ignored this type of sighting for half a century.
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Why? I mean that we it's not classified. The the Air Force never classified it.
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The Air Force never classified Project Blue Book. There were a few cases that are classified because the witness was
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on a trail, you know, on a on a ship, fishing ship half a mile from the coast of North Korea.
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Um, and that's classified. What what he saw in the sky was just some light and the light is of no interest whatsoever.
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So that people think that all those secret files, you know, they are going to contain all this information. Well,
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some of them do. We'd like to see them, but most of them are classified for other reasons and and it's going to be
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very difficult to open that whole thing up as we should. But uh there are good
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reasons why some things are remaining classified.
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So um so that's what I'm doing in answer to your question. I'm I'm going through
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cases that I know I can take up the steps of the Academy of Sciences in
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downtown Washington and get their attention because I've already done that with two of their members who've helped me in in finding the resources I needed.
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So, um I'm going to continue that. So, so far we have seven cases that are adjudicated.
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Not everything has been published, but we have complete fives. I have complete fives.
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Excellent. In most cases, I know the witnesses and I've been to the site. Okay. So, that's that's how you do science.
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It's not the theory is fine. I mean, we work with people who study the theory and it
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inspires the kind of questions we're going to ask the witness, you know, obviously. So, we we continue to learn on on the two platforms.
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Excellent. Yeah. Now, Jack, I'd like to talk to you about this uh very remarkable photograph from 1966
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showing the invisible college. You know there's Jay Allen Heinneck and and many other scientists. We have psychiatrists,
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psychologists, anthropologists, statisticians, physicians, physicists, astronomers and you know is very
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dominated by science whereas now it's very much sensors and national security.
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So what do you think those people understood back in ' 66 maybe about the phenomena that we might have lost track of in in modern times?
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Well actually we I think we had a more open mind in in those years and we do
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now we put so much emphasis on military data and that's
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other countries don't do it. I mean I in the days when you know the uh when
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Russia was uh was open I had contacts with researchers in in Russia. Um so did
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uh George Knap if if you remember absolutely uh there are people who thought UFOs
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were plasma and they had a committee of their academ of sciences looking at UFO
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observations that they thought could give them information about plasma. They certainly have plasmaike
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effects. That doesn't mean that the the that the object itself the material
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object is contained in a plasma or generates a plasma. So those are all
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open questions and other countries are looking at those questions. the the US has a
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both a superiority complex and a um an inferiority complex that goes back to
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Pearl Harbor. I mean, we we were caught completely, you know, unaware that the
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attack on on Pearl Harbor because Japan didn't declare war.
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Um well uh I don't think we declared war in Korea.
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So um there was a surprise effect and there is a fear we would never forgotten you know
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uh that attack and there there is a fear that if there is something unknown in
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the sky is going to attack us. Well UFOs have never done that.
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There have been some incidents certainly there have been some accidents. Um
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there are they have there have been maybe a dozen deaths from radiation or from some some form of
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energy from the craft from from the the physical object.
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And you know there are several theories about that. I I don't know what to think. Uh I I don't think it's
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necessarily offensive, but it uh it certainly does not does not seem right.
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You know, you've recently released uh Forbidden Science Volume 7. So, what made you decide that now was the right time to to bring the journals to an end?
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Well, um it's not the end of my research as you
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as we just spoke. Uh for one thing, I'm restarting, you know, a role in in in France on this
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official committee. There was a very interesting meeting in France at the
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general assembly with a number of
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of members of the the assembly uh essentially a half day seminar on UFOs uh attended by members.
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uh we said this is this is a real problem and uh we should organize to
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study it not only the physics but also the psychology and the sociology and the impact on the state. So remember
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the uh you know congress is there to make laws not to
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solve problems in physics. So that's one thing that bothers me when I see There were the hearings because people
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come before Congress to talk about science and equations and physics and energy and so on. You know, most of
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Congress is composed of of experts in law.
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In law and social sciences and social social measures and they've been elected
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to manage all that. the science is dedicated to the universities and to the labs.
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So um the in in France it's clear that the the
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the topic has escalated to the level of of government and that uh there are it's
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not going to happen o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o overnight. I can tell you that French politics being what they are right now and the French budget
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being what it is right now, nothing is going to be decided in a hurry. But the
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the mental space is is activated and people are seriously thinking about what
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what should be done, who should do it, how it should be done. uh the role of the military and the role of the uh
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academics and so on. So that's so I decided to bring
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you know I I see some of my colleagues uh in science who get to you know an
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advanced age as I I'm lucky to have you know reached
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uh with you know my some of my memory and certainly my ability to write is
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intact. So uh and my networks are in place of people who can guide me and tell you no
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you shouldn't look at in this direction there is a new way of looking at it and so on which is what I've done all my
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life as a you know as a as a venture investor in Silicon Valley. Yeah, you identify the the key problems and
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then you go look at the experts and you listen to them and then you try to apply
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what they've shown you in the lab and you try to apply it to something that
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helps community. Okay. So uh and the money is important but it's not about
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money you know that's what people don't understand now about AI was never about money.
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Uh that's another subject. Yeah.
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So that's what I'm doing now. I I decided to bring it to a close uh
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because people are not really interested in what I'm doing, you know.
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uh and I I I don't want to to continue uh trying to engage the public in what
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I'm doing when uh I I really at you know at my age I need to focus on a few
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things I can do and my my role now is the way I see it is more as
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um you know as with other people like me, you know, assisting the new generation
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of scientists who are coming into this and in the US we have three universities
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that are active in this uh with you know professor full
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professors and especially their students. So you know I continue to work with Dr.
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Nolan and I I follow what's going on at Colombia and at Harvard, you know, and
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of course we have for a long time we've been sort of growing that that kind of thing, you know, in France and in Europe
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in general. So that's where I can help as part of a team of uh people who know
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the data who have been that and what bothers me is that uh
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you know people take the data and they put it in a computer again you know this
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what happened to BAS you know to OAP the computer database which is now bucket of bits because we never did the filtering.
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Uh we were never allowed to continue the project and it was cut off in a way that
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nobody understands and and the database went somewhere and it's still
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classified. So uh o only the broad brush structure has been allowed to be
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published by the you know by the head of the of the project but u the rest of it people don't have
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access to that's very damaging because the people coming in now are reinventing the wheel
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and they are reinventing the wheel I had in 1970 because they they don't have the other parts.
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Sure.
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And again, it's not just me. It's the teams that were involved in in creating this data warehouse.
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Um, you know, there's it it reminds me when I see the
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the things on the web people say, well, UFOs turn blue under certain conditions or they they are dark, you know, a certain
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speed they become luminous. So that's true with the five cases I site. Okay, there's 260,000
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cases. Have they have they sent somebody to check?
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See, a big part of my life was just, you know, going there and talking to the
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witness. And I think one example here in California where there was a case that
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was studied and published by Muon. Uh they had spoken to the witnesses. There were people in the countryside in the
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northern part of California, 6 hours drive from up from San Francisco. You're still in California.
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It's a big state. And these people were in the forest and they had seen something. They had a mining operation,
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little private property. And um so I went there and I had a cup of
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coffee with them. I don't take a lot of equipment. I just, you know, uh I just take a a camera to get the site, you
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know, so I can remember the site and the map and um
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so we can talk. I want to pay attention to them, not to the setting on my, you know, on some recorder.
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Sure. and and I go there alone and I said, "Well, by the way, how did it go
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away? This thing was on the ground sitting on on their property and it flew
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up. The the new report said it flew up straight to the sky."
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Um, and they said, "Well, you know, we've when they called us, you know, that we
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told them it went up, but it didn't go up vertically. It went up at an angle."
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And I said, "Well, if it goes up at an angle, it's going to go through the pine trees from the the redwoods."
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and say, "Well, you know, it kind of went through the region." Well,
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that's not what's in the paper, right?
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That's what was in the San Francisco paper when they talked about this case.
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Um, but you're not going to find out because there is a, you know, a personal relationship with the investigator.
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you know, you don't tell everything to your doctor because you think you're going to waste his time or it's going to
33:55
33 minutes, 55 seconds
be irrelevant that, you know, you failed to before or whatever. So, you're not
34:01
34 minutes, 1 second
going to tell him or her. Uh the doctors found that they got much better interviews of patients with a computer.
34:10
34 minutes, 10 seconds
But the you talk to the computer, you're going to tell everything to the computer because it doesn't matter. computer
34:17
34 minutes, 17 seconds
isn't going to blame you for some stupid thing you did that got you the injury. So, same thing
34:25
34 minutes, 25 seconds
with UFO witnesses. Same thing with pilots. You know, the pilots only report part of it. They don't report what
34:33
34 minutes, 33 seconds
happened to their brain or what they saw or the dreams they had later on.
34:39
34 minutes, 39 seconds
I can give you case after case after case of pilots, helicopter pilots, fighter pilots that I've spoken to. You
34:49
34 minutes, 49 seconds
know that that when I ask, you know, what happened two days later,
34:58
34 minutes, 58 seconds
that's not in the report that they signed, you know, that they right to their superiors.
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35 minutes, 5 seconds
They want to keep flying.
35:08
35 minutes, 8 seconds
Absolutely. So do you think ever since you're not going to know that by reading thing or by looking at the
35:17
35 minutes, 17 seconds
testimony before Congress that question is never asked?
35:22
35 minutes, 22 seconds
That's true. Very true. Do you think time there is 10 times this the volume
35:28
35 minutes, 28 seconds
of data that nobody looks at that's like this this guy in the forest with
35:35
35 minutes, 35 seconds
essentially you know a an atomic contained atomic process
35:43
35 minutes, 43 seconds
nuclear process in a forest when it's raining in a little clearing that nobody
35:50
35 minutes, 50 seconds
cares about. There's an article recently praising me for writing volume 7 and it
36:00
36 minutes
says uh you know Jacques gave a talk uh recently about a case back in 1966 and then he went to his room.
36:12
36 minutes, 12 seconds
Well, you know, it's very nice and it's kind of true, but uh,
36:21
36 minutes, 21 seconds
you know, he missed the fact that I thought this 1966
36:29
36 minutes, 29 seconds
case should be noticed today and should be looked at carefully today in the
36:38
36 minutes, 38 seconds
context of other maybe other cases like it. some of which I'm aware of where you
36:45
36 minutes, 45 seconds
have essentially nuclear plant power being deployed in a small volume
36:52
36 minutes, 52 seconds
and that's that's a real science problem. It happened 1966. That's why I talk about 1966.
37:02
37 minutes, 2 seconds
You know, it's not that I want to remember my youth, okay? And people miss that.
37:11
37 minutes, 11 seconds
There were only two questions after my talk. And this was a room full of people researching UFOs.
37:20
37 minutes, 20 seconds
Wow.
37:21
37 minutes, 21 seconds
So, you know, we miss that. I'm sure there are things I'm missing when when I
37:28
37 minutes, 28 seconds
listen to to others, but you know, maybe we should Hey, go back. Yes, I agree.
37:35
37 minutes, 35 seconds
Take the time look at the big picture.
37:40
37 minutes, 40 seconds
Yeah. I'd like to ask you about your control system hypothesis. You know, asks us to look beyond the phenomena and
37:49
37 minutes, 49 seconds
what it appears to be and and ask what it actually does. So after everything you've learned, do you think this is the most useful way to approach it still?
37:58
37 minutes, 58 seconds
And are there other questions we should be asking about what the phenomenon is?
38:03
38 minutes, 3 seconds
Well, it's been looked at and criticized by many people and I I read this. I don't engage them.
38:15
38 minutes, 15 seconds
You know, it's it's a it's a hypothesis I proposed and
38:23
38 minutes, 23 seconds
everybody is free to now. I proposed it because I thought I had data that matched that. You know,
38:32
38 minutes, 32 seconds
many of the things you see on the internet, people say I have a hypothesis. Those are not hypothesis.
38:40
38 minutes, 40 seconds
Okay. A hypothesis in science is has two parts.
38:46
38 minutes, 46 seconds
It has a part which is an idea about how something works and then a part that
38:53
38 minutes, 53 seconds
says I tested my hypothesis by doing this experiment and this is what I
39:02
39 minutes, 2 seconds
found. And then I I looked at the opposite. You know, in in in in
39:09
39 minutes, 9 seconds
medicine, you're supposed to look at p to go look for patients who contradict your hypothesis. And
39:17
39 minutes, 17 seconds
until you've done that, you don't have an hypothesis, right?
39:20
39 minutes, 20 seconds
So people say hypothesis is, you know, they come from the other side of Venus.
39:26
39 minutes, 26 seconds
Well, well, maybe they do, but um or they come from the atmosphere of the
39:31
39 minutes, 31 seconds
sun, which you know, who knows? Um but
39:37
39 minutes, 37 seconds
the um what I don't see is the experiment that indicates that that I
39:45
39 minutes, 45 seconds
can work with or duplicate to see if I find the same thing. So the the idea of a control system is a real
39:54
39 minutes, 54 seconds
hypothesis because it uh it looks at how
39:59
39 minutes, 59 seconds
things change as a result uh of of other conditions
40:06
40 minutes, 6 seconds
as you know with uh other researchers especially Craig Sbeck in Spain who has
40:13
40 minutes, 13 seconds
published some remarkable books his name is spelled a u b c J and he's an English uh professional. He works in in Spain.
40:26
40 minutes, 26 seconds
Uh and uh we've we've looked at cases back in the 19th century and in the 18th
40:34
40 minutes, 34 seconds
century and it's very interesting because some of the things are constant
40:41
40 minutes, 41 seconds
and some of the context has changed. You even get into some rel cases that were assumed to be religious operations.
40:53
40 minutes, 53 seconds
But when you strip the interpretation which is a religious interpretation which I'm not you know competent to to
41:01
41 minutes, 1 second
to discuss uh people are free to to look at what
41:08
41 minutes, 8 seconds
caused the phenomenon but I look at the phenomenon and what is constant with it and you can put it side by side with
41:17
41 minutes, 17 seconds
something that happened two years ago in Oregon or in Montana. Okay. Uh so um
41:25
41 minutes, 25 seconds
there is a the social interpretation and and what is interesting is how we change
41:32
41 minutes, 32 seconds
when you're confronted with this. And that's what the where the phenomenon seems to work the
41:41
41 minutes, 41 seconds
way a control system would work. It it seems to lead us through
41:50
41 minutes, 50 seconds
uh visually and intellectually through an evolution.
41:56
41 minutes, 56 seconds
And you know you you can my hope is that that evolution is is now triggered by
42:05
42 minutes, 5 seconds
what does happen in space. you know, with our efforts to go to the moon, plan
42:11
42 minutes, 11 seconds
for Mars and and everything else. And um that we I think that seems to be what
42:21
42 minutes, 21 seconds
the that control system seems to be turning to, you know, displaying to us.
42:29
42 minutes, 29 seconds
So I think of it as a display.
42:34
42 minutes, 34 seconds
I learned that again it's not my idea. I learned that from Professor Salisbury in Utah. We went through uh the northern
42:43
42 minutes, 43 seconds
half of Utah all the way to the northern mountains that are very interesting and
42:50
42 minutes, 50 seconds
uh all the way down to the ranch, you know, to the big ranch. Yeah.
42:56
42 minutes, 56 seconds
And you have the same phenomena all the way across. And uh he
43:05
43 minutes, 5 seconds
reinvestigated and he I was you know uh
43:11
43 minutes, 11 seconds
happy that he chose me as his companion on the two
43:18
43 minutes, 18 seconds
uh two trips of more than one week in northern Utah that we did together
43:25
43 minutes, 25 seconds
because he wanted he knew I had read his books carefully and I used his ideas and
43:32
43 minutes, 32 seconds
again he was a biologist you know bi biologists you know they were in that photograph
43:39
43 minutes, 39 seconds
you mentioned and where are they now fortunately
43:46
43 minutes, 46 seconds
Dr. Nolan is you know one of the leading minds in biology in this country but we
43:54
43 minutes, 54 seconds
we need to look at animal life. We need to look at insect life. When I went to
44:00
44 minutes
Russia uh the first the during Paris strika where things were relatively open and garbage.
44:11
44 minutes, 11 seconds
We met the the scientists from the three projects that were looking at UFOs and
44:19
44 minutes, 19 seconds
uh I asked them about their technique for working at a site because I wanted to compare it to what I did.
44:30
44 minutes, 30 seconds
uh to measure the site and exploit it essentially. And there was a a biologist
44:37
44 minutes, 37 seconds
there who said he went there and he counted the insect types
44:45
44 minutes, 45 seconds
outside the trace and inside the trace to see what might have happened. And the the insects were his instrumented data.
44:58
44 minutes, 58 seconds
And when people say, well, you know, we need a military data because it's precise. Well, you know, a farmer in his
45:07
45 minutes, 7 seconds
field or a veterinarian, you know, looking at the behavior of of an animal
45:13
45 minutes, 13 seconds
or looking at the corpse of an animal um is going to give you very rich, you
45:24
45 minutes, 24 seconds
know, body of data as well. So I I think that's that's the way we're going to understand the control system.
45:35
45 minutes, 35 seconds
There's a section in uh your latest book, Forbidden Science 7. It's sort of closures and disclosures.
45:42
45 minutes, 42 seconds
By closure, do you think we're actually getting closer to disclosure?
45:50
45 minutes, 50 seconds
Well, um closures because uh you know, our research project got closed. I mean, okay.
45:58
45 minutes, 58 seconds
You know, the the budget was uh cut off.
46:02
46 minutes, 2 seconds
So, and everybody went home and including so I I can go home and I can you can
46:10
46 minutes, 10 seconds
find me again and we we can continue to work. But the the 40 people we hired,
46:19
46 minutes, 19 seconds
we had trained over two years in understanding the nuances of of this very complex
46:27
46 minutes, 27 seconds
problem. Okay. Um and they were dismissed on two week notice.
46:36
46 minutes, 36 seconds
They were paid for two weeks, but they could go home that afternoon and that was, you know, that was them.
46:44
46 minutes, 44 seconds
So uh where are they now? I mean those were to me those were the
46:51
46 minutes, 51 seconds
you know our companions in research the people we would rely on to
47:00
47 minutes
work with us uh because after two years they had been in Brazil, they had been in Argentina, you know they had been
47:08
47 minutes, 8 seconds
briefed on on the different programs they and they came from and they were trained investigators most of them. So,
47:17
47 minutes, 17 seconds
they knew how to, you know, what not to do when you're they they knew you shouldn't hypnotize people. I mean, they
47:25
47 minutes, 25 seconds
they knew that wasn't the way to get to the truth and so on. So, uh
47:32
47 minutes, 32 seconds
they're gone. I mean, they're not coming back. I spoke to some of them. I spoke to the head of the project to whom I
47:41
47 minutes, 41 seconds
turned over the database for that two-year phase. um you know he's doing something else.
47:51
47 minutes, 51 seconds
Do you feel like there are any dangers surrounding disclosure?
47:57
47 minutes, 57 seconds
Sure. I mean people have already you know opined on this. Uh
48:05
48 minutes, 5 seconds
everybody including me is saying that we need disclosure.
48:17
48 minutes, 17 seconds
We're grown up now. You don't need to hide the fact that you know there are
48:23
48 minutes, 23 seconds
people with guns or there are epidemics or they are we people need to
48:30
48 minutes, 30 seconds
know that that it's there. But the the day after disclosure
48:37
48 minutes, 37 seconds
you'll discover that there are 10 different interpretations of disclosure.
48:42
48 minutes, 42 seconds
Certainly, you know, people in different faiths uh will will go back to the the books uh of
48:51
48 minutes, 51 seconds
their faith and and will will find an interpretation there. You know, that's a religious interpretation.
49:00
49 minutes
And some, you know, religious thinkers or students of of religion have already published books on this.
49:12
49 minutes, 12 seconds
So Diana Basula, you know,
49:19
49 minutes, 19 seconds
Jeff Krio, you know, among among the leaders of of the thinking about about
49:26
49 minutes, 26 seconds
religion and its impact on us have already published several several books and been active with this. Yeah,
49:34
49 minutes, 34 seconds
but uh they would agree that there are different interpretations and looking at
49:40
49 minutes, 40 seconds
history that could be the source of um
49:47
49 minutes, 47 seconds
aggravation and and uh conflict among society.
49:54
49 minutes, 54 seconds
Then there are people who will say that there is nothing to it. And then then there are people who will say that it's
50:01
50 minutes, 1 second
a threat and they will start, you know, creating shelters to hide when the
50:07
50 minutes, 7 seconds
Martians land and there are other people who, you know, hopefully there are a few
50:14
50 minutes, 14 seconds
a few people who join the research. But um my concern is that disclosure will
50:22
50 minutes, 22 seconds
freeze people in their different beliefs. Uh they they will not tolerate the
50:32
50 minutes, 32 seconds
insecurity and they you know the the lack of knowledge because what you're disclosing
50:40
50 minutes, 40 seconds
is that we don't know what it is. I mean that's the only thing we're disclosing.
50:46
50 minutes, 46 seconds
So, and I I I I see, you know, tidbits of interviews of uh whistleblowers.
50:56
50 minutes, 56 seconds
And by the way, I'm not a whistleblower.
50:59
50 minutes, 59 seconds
The few things that I think are classified for good reason. And it's not for me to opine that they should be declassified or reclassified.
51:10
51 minutes, 10 seconds
Uh that's way over mine. But um you know there are
51:18
51 minutes, 18 seconds
people with different different interpretations of what it is. But what they say is that there is hardware that
51:26
51 minutes, 26 seconds
has been found and is being studied in labs and that those things have in fact
51:34
51 minutes, 34 seconds
created physical effects that people have found in the field. Well, if I take that and I go back to see, you know, one
51:43
51 minutes, 43 seconds
of the witnesses I interviewed and I say, "By the way, Bill, you know,
51:49
51 minutes, 49 seconds
great news. Uh um the government has disclosed that what you saw was a real
51:57
51 minutes, 57 seconds
thing. You know, remember our conversation? You told me you saw this object and so on." Well, people in Washington now say it's true.
52:08
52 minutes, 8 seconds
and he'll say, "Jack, you know, where have you been? You were sitting in my kitchen and I described the thing to you
52:16
52 minutes, 16 seconds
and I thought you got it that it's true." You know, why do you are you waiting for the CIA or somebody to
52:25
52 minutes, 25 seconds
disclose uh that there is something in something there?
52:32
52 minutes, 32 seconds
You you wrote it down. I mean, you know, you took the picture. Uh so people are
52:40
52 minutes, 40 seconds
going to say wait a minute you know where have they been?
52:44
52 minutes, 44 seconds
It's a it's a big responsibility if you and and there we get into a dangerous area about disclosure.
52:57
52 minutes, 57 seconds
You can't possibly disclose the whole thing. For one thing, um, as you know,
53:04
53 minutes, 4 seconds
one of the scientists and independent scientists has found out he had currencies and he wanted to know
53:13
53 minutes, 13 seconds
what some other cleared project or you know calcified project were doing and uh
53:22
53 minutes, 22 seconds
there were so many from so many different agencies just in one particular space project you know
53:30
53 minutes, 30 seconds
looking at things in orbit uh that he realized you it couldn't be done. I mean you first
53:39
53 minutes, 39 seconds
you'll have to find these projects one by one. Some of them are very classified very deep. So only the people inside the
53:49
53 minutes, 49 seconds
project know the the code name for the project. It's not written somewhere.
53:56
53 minutes, 56 seconds
So you have to go figure it out all those things and then and you probably shouldn't.
54:03
54 minutes, 3 seconds
So um if if um
54:09
54 minutes, 9 seconds
my fear is that somebody is going to make up
54:18
54 minutes, 18 seconds
um a story that will be an approximation of what can be disclosed. Okay. I mean, we can disclose that there are holes in
54:26
54 minutes, 26 seconds
the ground left by something that went up and we can disclose, you know, that we have some pictures and that's what
54:35
54 minutes, 35 seconds
they've started to do, you know, but those pictures, what bothers me with what's being
54:44
54 minutes, 44 seconds
disclosed now by by the government is that those cases were not investigated.
54:51
54 minutes, 51 seconds
So you you have a picture of something that went over an Air Force base in a few seconds and it went up and uh or it
55:01
55 minutes, 1 second
went over New York City in a few minutes and and uh that's it. And you don't have
55:08
55 minutes, 8 seconds
the rest of the data. You don't see any evidence and anybody bothered to follow up.
55:18
55 minutes, 18 seconds
So yeah, you have somebody has a blurred picture of something or there is a radar recorded something but you know it went
55:27
55 minutes, 27 seconds
off and so that's not that means that nobody was worried about it.
55:36
55 minutes, 36 seconds
So, you know, if Malcolm Air Force Base wasn't worried about the thing that went zip uh on their radar,
55:45
55 minutes, 45 seconds
uh why should we enlist the scientific community to go look at it uh two years later?
55:53
55 minutes, 53 seconds
I mean, it's gone.
55:56
55 minutes, 56 seconds
So, yeah, that's what I this is not disclosure, you know. Well, disclosure would be of something that has been
56:04
56 minutes, 4 seconds
adjudicated as by by people who are experts in the whatever that thing did.
56:14
56 minutes, 14 seconds
Sure.
56:18
56 minutes, 18 seconds
So Jack, you've spent almost 70 years asking what this phenomenon is, but if you could actually ask the phenomenon
56:26
56 minutes, 26 seconds
itself one question knowing you might get a true answer, what would you ask it?
56:34
56 minutes, 34 seconds
Well, that's what I'm doing, you know, through the interface. I my my computer
56:41
56 minutes, 41 seconds
is really designed as an interface with whatever is there uh for one for a few aspects of it.
56:53
56 minutes, 53 seconds
Uh
57:04
57 minutes, 4 seconds
I'm I'm not at the point where I'm I'm ready to phrase a question. Uh obviously you want to know if it's a control
57:13
57 minutes, 13 seconds
system if following that my
57:20
57 minutes, 20 seconds
hypothesis or my contention but it is a control system. You want to know what it is it's controlling because the rest of
57:28
57 minutes, 28 seconds
it is in in you know uh I'm I'm
57:37
57 minutes, 37 seconds
you know when you're in an office uh I was few days ago I was in Las Vegas temperature was 113
57:45
57 minutes, 45 seconds
well we had a meeting at the normal temperature now if I notice that if I'm a good
57:52
57 minutes, 52 seconds
physicist I should be uh aware that uh there is something wrong
57:59
57 minutes, 59 seconds
with the picture because you know how come we're at normal temperature here talking to each other and outside the
58:07
58 minutes, 7 seconds
door it's 117. So uh you would have to come to the conclusion that there is a system that is controlling the temperature inside this room. Okay.
58:17
58 minutes, 17 seconds
Sure.
58:18
58 minutes, 18 seconds
Then then the next question is can you prove that? So to prove that you can open the windows and the doors and then
58:27
58 minutes, 27 seconds
pretty soon it's 113 where we're sitting.
58:33
58 minutes, 33 seconds
Uh so you've you've proved the existence of the control system but you haven't found it yet because it's not you can't see it.
58:44
58 minutes, 44 seconds
You know the air conditioning system is well designed you can't see it.
58:49
58 minutes, 49 seconds
Yeah. So, um it um you'd have to look behind all the
58:58
58 minutes, 58 seconds
bookcases and behind all the furniture and maybe roll up the carpets and maybe, you know, do a number of things like
59:06
59 minutes, 6 seconds
that to find and you'd find different openings uh and uh they may not be relevant. So then you'd have to test
59:15
59 minutes, 15 seconds
every every opening you find. uh uh maybe something on you know the frame of
59:22
59 minutes, 22 seconds
the window or something that you never noticed before. So now you notice it and now you test it to to see if that's
59:31
59 minutes, 31 seconds
where the the control happens. So maybe the the glass uh on the window has
59:39
59 minutes, 39 seconds
changed color a little bit in a way you hadn't noticed because it's glass that filters, you know, infrared, for
59:47
59 minutes, 47 seconds
example. Well, you don't necessarily notice it when you walk into somebody's office.
59:55
59 minutes, 55 seconds
So that's a kind of if you reduce it to sort of basic stupid physics that's what
1:00:03
1 hour, 3 seconds
what we have to do. So that's what I would do. I I would look for the reference signal you know there there's
1:00:10
1 hour, 10 seconds
a reference signal which is a temperature. It's not what we talk about. It's not the pictures on the wall. It's not you know anything else.
1:00:19
1 hour, 19 seconds
It's not the music that's playing. There are all kinds of things that could be part of the control system. There's one thing the temperature.
1:00:29
1 hour, 29 seconds
So then it seems that over the many many years the phenomenon has changed its
1:00:37
1 hour, 37 seconds
appearance and uh it to challenge us in a
1:00:44
1 hour, 44 seconds
particular set of ideas and that's what I'm interested in and
1:00:50
1 hour, 50 seconds
that's not classified. It's not you know it's that part of it is is interesting
1:00:59
1 hour, 59 seconds
for the people who are in charge of maintaining it and looking at threats of the particular kind but that's not
1:01:07
1 hour, 1 minute, 7 seconds
something I can help them with in the meantime most of the phenomenon is essentially open.
1:01:15
1 hour, 1 minute, 15 seconds
Yeah. Um, somebody told me if you want to look at your control system, look at the university. I mean, the university is
1:01:23
1 hour, 1 minute, 23 seconds
very structured. You get grades, you take classes, you do the work, you get grades. If your grades are good enough, you can go out.
1:01:34
1 hour, 1 minute, 34 seconds
That's the only time it's open. Or you drop out. That's another time it's open.
1:01:40
1 hour, 1 minute, 40 seconds
But if you stay there, it's closed. You have to follow the rules. Okay. Um he gave me some examples in his life of
1:01:50
1 hour, 1 minute, 50 seconds
things that he felt were closed and they were really were open in certain cases.
1:01:59
1 hour, 1 minute, 59 seconds
U he had been in a German concentration camp during the war in Bervald.
1:02:08
1 hour, 2 minutes, 8 seconds
He certainly couldn't get out.
1:02:11
1 hour, 2 minutes, 11 seconds
But one time uh the the the Nazi guards brought in the firemen from Munich
1:02:20
1 hour, 2 minutes, 20 seconds
and incar incarcerated them in Bkenva for three weeks
1:02:28
1 hour, 2 minutes, 28 seconds
and then they were released after three weeks and they were no longer in strike.
1:02:35
1 hour, 2 minutes, 35 seconds
So uh they had learned something. So he said you know again it's like a university concentration camp is a kind
1:02:43
1 hour, 2 minutes, 43 seconds
of university there are people who get out and they've learned something he said
1:02:51
1 hour, 2 minutes, 51 seconds
I've learned something because they tortured me for a while and you know uh but in the end you know somebody opened it up.
1:03:04
1 hour, 3 minutes, 4 seconds
Yeah. So that's that's very I've never forgotten that conversation because it
1:03:10
1 hour, 3 minutes, 10 seconds
was very serious about what a control system really does and um it's not necessarily a thermostat.
1:03:22
1 hour, 3 minutes, 22 seconds
No, we we build control systems indeed. social systems and psychological
1:03:31
1 hour, 3 minutes, 31 seconds
control systems and they are regulated and there is a reference signal
1:03:38
1 hour, 3 minutes, 38 seconds
and it regulates you know our decisions and so on.
1:03:45
1 hour, 3 minutes, 45 seconds
Yeah, very interesting. Well, listen, Jack, I want to thank you so much for joining me today. It's always an honor and a
1:03:52
1 hour, 3 minutes, 52 seconds
pleasure to speak with you. I really appreciate your time. Thank you.
1:03:57
1 hour, 3 minutes, 57 seconds
Thank you. Take care. I look forward to your future work.