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Today I'm joined by Rear Admiral Tim Galedet, a [music] retired US Navy officer and oceanographer.
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He previously served as an acting under [music] secretary and assistant secretary of commerce and an acting administrator and deputy administrator
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of the National Oceanic Atmospheric [music] Administration, the NOAA,
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and he's one of the most prominent voices in the UAP and USO conversations.
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His new book, Holding Vast [music] in Heavy Seas, explores leadership, uncertainty, and navigating difficult
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situations when you don't have all the answers.
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Today, we're going beyond UAPs in the skies [music] into questions about security, national security, the military-industrial
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complex, USOs, and the extraordinary claims surrounding [music] possible underwater USO bases. Hm. What is real?
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What [music] isn't? And how do we find the truth when the evidence is incomplete? Join us as we get Rebelliously Curious.
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Tim, it's so wonderful to have you on Rebelliously Curious. you are a prominent name when it comes to the UFO field, but specifically in USOs, which I
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think is wonderful because we we really don't have a lot of people speaking about UFOs from your context, from your
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experience, you know, working within the Navy and then the military as well. And so, so people that don't know, you were in the US Navy, but you were also later
2:07
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in the NOA as as well. And so this commulation of work that you've had over the years has really now built to this
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point where you're able to then release a book which has been called Holding Fast in Heavy Seas. So before we talk
Chapter 2: Leadership and challenges
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about UFOs and USOs, can you talk about just some of those catalyst moments that brought you to writing this book and what this book entails?
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Sure. Thanks, Chrissy. Thanks for having me, too. Yeah, and this is a neat way to weave the story into this podcast in that I have a whole career and
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background in the ocean, ocean science and ocean conservation and and uh and that the book really tells that story,
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that leadership journey I I I had taken from my time growing up in Southern California on on the water and falling
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in love with the ocean, then joining the Navy and studying about the ocean and serving as a a career oceanographer,
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leading that agency. See, you mentioned Noah is how we how we call it, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, the the nation's top
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ocean agency. And then finally, like getting into the probably the most interesting science you could even imagine about the ocean, and that's
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non-human intelligence visitors that are residing in the ocean and um the source
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of some really amazing uh observations which we will go into. Uh but yeah, the book just tells my leadership story.
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It's mostly about leadership and I don't do it through a sort of preachy set of lessons. I I include lessons and principles, but I just I just tell about
3:41
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what I did and the wonderful people in my life who influenced me both in the Navy and beyond and in this space. And
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then um and that's just how I give the leadership advice I do in the book. But there is a little bit about UAP and
3:56
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UFOs, but it's uh it's mostly about speaking truth to science. And that's that's a big reason why I'm in this space at all.
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As you've built these leadership skills, you know, you've been in positions and I would love to know some of those positions that you've been in that
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you've had to make really really hard decisions when leadership wasn't there and or maybe leadership wasn't accurate.
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You know, one thing I've learned so much about national security and just looking at the military-industrial complex and intelligence obviously within it,
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sometimes it's not good. And a lot of the times I've seen so many failures as I've been researching years and years of this and just related to UAPs, you know,
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[clears throat] programs that have affected civilians. You see these national intelligence failures all the time. So, you know, leadership and let's
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be honest, we're human, right? we we can't be perfect all the time, but there's some really big um intelligent failures that we've had. And so for
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yourself, I would love to see maybe some examples where you've had to really make those hard decisions when you haven't had the leadership behind you.
4:59
4 minutes, 59 seconds
Yeah. Well, there's a big one in the book and uh I'll try to address it briefly because I don't want to get too political on you, but ultimately it involves Please do please Tim do.
Chapter 3: The Sharpiegate incident
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5 minutes, 9 seconds
Okay, [laughter] we will. Yeah. Yeah. So, here I was leading a science agency during Trump's first term. And there was this incident
5:15
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that was kind of labeled by the press as called Sharpiegate. And I don't know if you recall it, uh people in the weather
5:22
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community do. And what happened is Trump was tweeting about a certain hurricane in 2019, Hurricane Dorian, uh which was
5:30
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in the Caribbean at the time, and it was one of the most damaging storms in the Bahamas history. And so, here it was barreling towards the US. and he tweeted
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about a number of states being in the impact zone including Alabama. Well, it turned out as Trump would often do is he wasn't looking at the most accurate
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information which my agency Noah the National Weather Service is under us that they had put out a forecast for the
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storm to recurve towards the Carolinas and Alabama wasn't even in the the the picture. Well, of course, when Trump did that, everybody in Alabama saw that and
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started sending messages and calling the National Weather Services offices there.
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And so they they put out uh messages saying, "Alabama is going to be safe. Uh we're not in the picture." And of course then Trump got all really upset and
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because someone countered him and and the next day or so he ended up displaying in an Oval Office press conference uh that included discussion
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about Dorian an old forecast graphic that our hurricane center generated and it showed the area of where the that
6:32
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would be impacted and and he someone on the staff would look like a Sharpie because he used Sharpies to sign his documents and I even have a presidential
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appointment hanging in my office with his signature on with a Sharpie and it looked like they drew a big extension of the the forecast area around Alabama. So
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what that did is it set the press on fire and my agency would looked really bad and the morale just tanked and ultimately I was I was going to resign
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because here Trump was just totally misdirecting. It was misinformation in a scientific sense affecting millions of people and uh and what happened is the
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uh weather service employees who work for me they they we had a good rapport.
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I had been a forecaster in the Navy. I know meteorology and they liked that I had the credentials and the integrity to do the right thing and they encouraged
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me to stay and that's what that book's about. Holding fast and heavy seas. I did stay and I almost I got fired once
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and and almost quit a number of times. I felt like a cat with nine lives. But in staying, we were able to achieve a whole
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lot of environmental wins for ocean science as well as conservation and technology too that didn't get a lot of
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press, but did did a lot of good for the agency. And when I finished up, the uh the workplace satisfaction scores were
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through the roof and they've never been higher. So that's the book tells that story and leadership is so important. I think people forget how important leadership
8:01
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is in everything we do and the type of people around us that are leading us and guiding us hopefully in the right directions. Right? This could be just
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from corporate. It could be you know your in your local community. It could be your family. It could be your friends. It's so important. And to be able to look at those leaders and know
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that they have your best interest um in hand. And you know, I have to ask this politically. Do you do you think
Chapter 4: Leading with integrity
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that Trump had then anybody's best interest at hand or is it just an intelligent failure going up to him, which we have seen him do this
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consistently, right? Like I I think this is this is known for years now that he's not very good at getting the facts straight from his own community. Right?
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We've seen Nancy Grace do this. We've seen so many other congressmen and congressw women brief him on specific programs and they've just been not accurate. And the science is inaccurate.
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No, no. Telling the truth in a Trump administration is an occupational hazard. 100%. And that that's exactly what I experienced. And he didn't want
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he he was trying to save his own image, which I can't say is terribly great in view of the fact that he treats discards
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the truth and treats it in such a um ne negligent way. Uh but I don't want to get into bashing him. I really want to the book is about that leading with
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integrity that that ensures and uh generates trust in the folks that I led
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and and that's really what I think and that's the positive part of it and and you touch on a great thing Chrissy. I didn't write this book for military people or government people only.
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Everybody has a chance to lead wherever they are at whatever level. Uh, one of the things I I also talk about in my book is leading up and I tell stories
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about just great sailors who led led me who showed me how to be in terms of character. Uh, and and I follow their
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example. So, it's not always just giving direction down. And I think like you said, anybody at home, a parent, even
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even a a a young person to their parents can show leadership. And I think that's really what I try to convey in the whole book.
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Yeah. I I believe in that too. I believe in punching up not punching down. You know, I think the same kind of context, it goes both ways within leadership, but
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also just inspiring people, right? You want to guide you want to guide them with positive impact and positive messaging so that they go into the world
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and do the same thing, right? It's it's a mirror. We we reflect each other. That is well said. You you nail it. That's really good.
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And honestly, Tim, I will say I see that with you and you in everything you do.
10:34
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You know, you can see it when you talk about your family. You can see it within your work. You can see it within your passion. Like you really and I and I don't just say this as a podcaster and a
10:43
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journalist, but I I do think you are such a wonderful example of leadership.
10:47
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And we see that and I think a lot of people would agree there are many people within intelligence in this space that have
10:56
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I don't think have the best example of leadership and I think have the best example of community and showing what community is through leadership as well.
11:05
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And I and I really do think you ex really do show that in your work.
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Well, thank you Christie. I I'm I'm trying. How about that? And I appreciate [laughter] you acknowledging that.
11:14
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You're welcome. So, one of the questions though is when you look at responsible leadership and you know, we'll take the
Chapter 5: Policy and UAP research
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UFO scenario in and UFO subject as an example. But when you're looking through through responsible leadership, you
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know, when evidence is incomplete, how do you guide then?
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Yeah. Well, I just try to I try to follow what I know and what what the evidence, if you will. Uh I I try not to
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speak about and speculate on what could be and what might be. I think that that leaves many people astray because the
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topic is sensational by nature and that encourages a lot of people to I think uh push the boundary of what's what's known
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and even knowable. So that that's what I encourage people to do is just follow the facts, follow what you know, don't speak about what you don't know. And and
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I think you're right. I think we need good leadership in this space. I I think it's important uh people that are going
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to address the topic uh as it is and um and and should be in terms of
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transparency from our government. I think there's just a lot of great people. One of the one of the folks that we all know really well and I think is a
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great example of this is Chris Chris Melon. He he is always very even keeled about what he says and he he does cut to
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the issues in a very perceptive way and I I just he's just so I'll tell you this I follow a lot of great examples and I
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mentioned them in my book and he's one of them.
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Yeah, he is. I think he's a great example of that too. just at least he knows when specifically when he's talking about policy because that's what Chris really understands. He understands
12:56
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national security and many things, but he does understand how to engage with the public and how to be able to change policy to help people. And I and to me,
13:04
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I think that's the most one of the most important things. I've said this before in a podcast. I have a good friend of mine who was in intelligence and then
13:11
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later uh became a lawyer and and then a producer. You know, this is how those things go. And he said to me, you know, Chrissy, if you really want to make
13:19
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change and you really want to help people, you have to change policy. And it's true. And it stuck with me consistently. And there's different ways to help people, you know, around the
13:28
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world. And there's different ways to guide and and to be a leader. But specifically though, you know, many things don't get done. And and I've had
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this debate. I've had this debate with certain people in the podcast space.
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I've had it in all different areas where where they think that you like government will never ever get to the truth and government will never ever be
13:48
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the people that will, you know, have disclosure, which I honestly I hate using that word personally. Um, but let's just use it in this context. You
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know, it won't be the government with disclosure, but what it will be, it will be the people. Now, I do agree with that to a degree, right? I think that we have
14:03
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multiple civilians. There's so many people educated in this topic in all different degrees and it's an area of study and you need multiple people to be
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able to research it. It's just not one person. But I don't think anything will get through and I don't know if we will fully have maybe a society will have a
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paradigm shift culturally but will it affect our policy and will it affect those levels within government? And
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really at the end of the day to help anybody you have to positively affect policy and make those changes and I love to hear your perspective on that.
14:39
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Well, I agree and actually that you when you mention that about Chris and he's has his experience as a deputy assistant
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secretary of defense for intelligence that that I think that's where pe when people are are working in the areas that
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they know uh and have expertise and experience that's when I think the best is accomplished. So for me again I have
15:01
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this ocean background that's why I'm looking specifically at USOs but I also have policy background and leadership. So I try to bring those to bear as well.
15:09
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Uh recommending and advocating for policy on on research actually UAP research and disclosure to some extent.
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Uh so yeah I think when people do that rather than because there's a lot of there's a lot of folks that that speak out on this and they are they're saying
15:26
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things from which they really have no authority of knowledge and [laughter] that that sometime that becomes problematic at times. Um, so but you're
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you're right. Policy is what what what's going to affect change and I think we're on a pretty we're on a pretty good glide
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path for that because of all that's changed and happened so far recently.
15:47
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Uh, and um it's sort of a in my view inevitable because of the increasing public interest. Ultimately we're all
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voters and any administration is going to affect change when the people that voted for them ask for it. And a lot of people, a lot of voters are asking for
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it right now. Uh, and so, and I believe also it's it's really irreversible what what we've done so far. Here I am on the UAP Science Advisory Council reporting
Chapter 6: National UAP priorities
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to the Office of Director of National Intelligence. Granted, we're only working at unclassified level, which means we really are not going to open a
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lot for now. Uh, but we can recommend declassification of certain information, which has already occurred with the different videos that Chris helped
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release with Lou Alzando. So that that's a that's precedent for us. Yeah. And and so and so the changes are already
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occurring. Think about this Chrissy. I agree to go under this UAP science advisory council because what we are
16:42
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doing is we are making a statement that UAP research um is acceptable in mainstream science. That's a historic
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statement in itself. And I'm glad to be a part of it. I'm honored actually because I' I've been talking about this aspect in my area, my ocean science
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community, and I've done this for several years recommending that we take UAP in the maritime domain seriously in
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terms of research. And no one's taken that up yet, but now now we're doing it at a national level. And ultimately, if
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uh what I hope to have happen is the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy actually put in their
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annual R&D priorities memo that UAP research is a pri national priority, then that means all the federal agencies are going to start funding UAP research.
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So that I've recommended that several years in a row and now we actually have things in place to maybe make that happen.
17:38
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Well, would we be able to put this in the defense budget then at the end of the year as a line item? You know, because we always kind of have it
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skirted in into many different defense areas and budgets where we find, okay, well, this is to do with potentially UAP
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research, right? Or wording is is there a possibility that that could happen that we then have these light items that
18:00
18 minutes
are shown because let's be there's so much money that goes to waste, right?
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like there's so many black projects that you know there's probably more than spending there than we actually seeing in a defense budget right uh I would
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imagine and there has never been any proper audit done so do you think that we're coming to that day where those line items might happen
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well I think uh yes is the answer which is is also monumental but again so we have a science advisory council now
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reporting to ODNI and and that is is putting in place a a precedent as I
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spoke to previously that uh that could very well make UAP research a national priority in a statement by the White
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House or or again the OSTP in the White House which then if that is actually put into that annual document that will
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drive not only the defense budget doing re UAP research but also my former agency and every other ocean agency like the Naval Oceanographic Office that I
19:02
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work with before and Noah and uh and then office of naval intelligence. So 100% that's possible and I I'll tell you a year ago I never thought it would be.
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So that's that's that's big change.
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Yeah, it's huge change. So this brings me to a question that I think I'm going to start asking people that are within the same kind of positions of of
Chapter 7: Military-industrial complex
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leadership and power that you've been in over the years. You know, when I look at the military-industrial complex, I see, you know, so many positive and negative
19:29
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things, right? We look at defense and we need defense for specific reasons, you know, and we had Eisenhower say this I
19:36
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believe in 1961 where we talk about the difference between the two. You know, we have the military-industrial complex, but when then we also have which is
19:44
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overseeing defense as well, but then we have these, you know, areas of defense that keep us and protect us on a daily basis from threats and foreign
19:53
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adversaries. But overall on a whole, you know, do we really need the military-industrial complex and all of
20:00
20 minutes
the rest of its backing of intelligence and everything that it does? Because we've seen again leadership that hasn't been positive. We've seen so many areas
20:08
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break down in miscommunication and tons of intelligence failures. But we also see how the military-industrial complex
20:15
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has its hand specifically in our own society. Again, I'm Canadian, but you know, as a North American,
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we see its hand and we see its overall power that hasn't really been positive.
20:28
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So, yes, let's say we need defense, but do you think we over overall need a military-industrial complex?
20:35
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Well, that's a a kind of broad cate categorization of the of the private sector and the military and their
20:44
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relationship. Granted, it there are instances of uh I would say
20:51
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abuse of power there in corporate America as well as in in the Pentagon.
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But at the same time for our global security, uh there are elements of that that I think are fundamentally necessary. So yeah, I reform is needed.
21:07
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It's happening now actually. So even though I wasn't necessarily positive about Trump's integrity, there is some changes. there are changes occurring in
21:14
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in in the DOW now that are are good in terms of acquisition reform. It's it's
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it's a it's a it's a tall order. Uh but but but the streamlining acquisition and speeding up the delivery of capability
21:28
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and and and incorporating more uh being more being more fair uh and creating equal opportunity for various uh uh
21:38
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contributors. So, I I'm seeing the startup world really really gain access into uh working with the military and
21:45
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I've been that's my day job actually. I I advise more than a dozen startups that do all types of uh both mil dual use
21:53
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work. So, we're talking have with civil applications as well as military applications. So, drone companies, sat satellite companies, uh data companies
22:01
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and robotics. So, it's a really exciting space to be in. So there's good there's positives and negatives uh uh when you
22:08
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when you approach that topic right now and change for the better is needed.
22:13
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Some of it's occurring now and I like to be an agent for more of it to occur and and I'm trying.
22:19
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People might not like the Trump administration. There are players and actors within the administration that are helping to make positive change,
22:27
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right? We forget about that. We always label one person, you know, as being, you know, horrible or not a good leader.
22:34
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But then we forget about all the people that are underneath that person that's actually really do making meaningful change that will last forever and will
22:41
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change people's lives. And you see that, you know, you just hope that their intentions are are positive and are what they say they are and transparent.
22:51
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Yeah. And you make a great point, Chrissy. When your intentions are pure and good, I usually see great results from that. And and and that's a fact. Uh
23:00
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again, I I have actually I served with good people during Trump's first term and some of those people returned. I decided not to and they're doing great
23:09
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work and so I I won't disparage the administration at large. I'll just say that Trump was a challenging executive to work for and I have quite a few sea
23:17
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stories in and scar tissue in my book that I describe which some some entertaining and some uh I guess disappointing.
23:27
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That's that's fair. And I could see, you know, signing your name on executive documents as or presidential documents
23:35
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with a Sharpie is [laughter] it actually makes me laugh. It's so of this time and so celebratorial to do
23:42
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that, you know. I think he must be the first president ever to really just autograph uh celebrity autograph presential documents.
23:52
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Well, I have a story here.
Chapter 8: Oval Office anecdotes
23:54
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Please. Yes. Yeah. Well, here, spoiler alert. It's in my book. What my only Oval Office visit was for a great Noah
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program. So, one of Noah's uh many conservation programs is called the Marine Debris Program, and it it was
24:10
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authorized by Congress and has bipartisan support. And basically, it's it's a it's a program to work with partners to clean up trash in the ocean.
24:18
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So, we're talking about discarded fishing nets as well as plastics and uh and it's just very good. has a great economic impact because no one wants to go to a trashy beach for in the summer.
24:29
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So when you clean up the beach, you see a lot more tourism income generated. A and it's also good for marine life
24:36
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because plastics are kill valuable marine species like marine mammals, whales, seals, and whatnot. So
24:44
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uh I was in the Oval Office for Trump to sign this bill to reauthorize our our marine debris program. I was with the
24:52
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Secretary of Commerce at the time. He was my boss because Noah is under the Department of Commerce. And then I had Senator White House from Rhode Island, a Democratic senator. And then we had
25:01
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Senator Sullivan from Alaska, Republican senator. Everybody was behind this. And um and so I'm going to get to your point on celebrity uh influence with Trump.
25:10
25 minutes, 10 seconds
And so u I didn't even have an hour noticed when I was called at the White House that day. I just got, you know,
25:18
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random message and it was, "Hey Tim, they want you at the White House.
25:21
25 minutes, 21 seconds
Repressor." Okay. So, uh, I run over there and, um, I'm waiting and the president comes in, shakes her hand, he's actually kind of very cordial and
25:29
25 minutes, 29 seconds
warm. I will give him that. And, and Senator White House, who's very, very leftleaning, he he made a funny joke. He
25:36
25 minutes, 36 seconds
goes, "I bet you never thought you'd see this White House in this White House." And, uh, I laughed. I thought it was funny, but, no one else did. Anyways,
25:44
25 minutes, 44 seconds
then the the presser starts and uh, the thing about the thing and it went well, but ultimately my wife got this call.
25:51
25 minutes, 51 seconds
Hey, turn on the TV. Tim's on the news from her friend. She turns on the TV and this is a picture of my book. And so I'm
25:58
25 minutes, 58 seconds
on CBS live streaming here. We're all there. I'm in the picture and but but the next meeting on Trump's calendar was
26:06
26 minutes, 6 seconds
with Kanye West and many people remember this day. It was it was kind of it was just so well publicized and and so the
26:16
26 minutes, 16 seconds
the ticker on the bottom while we're all there uh in the Oval Office with Trump in the middle at the desk is up next
26:23
26 minutes, 23 seconds
Trump to meet me meet with Kanye West and and Karen knew I was there for another reason. So she wanted to get a picture of me and she kept on holding
26:31
26 minutes, 31 seconds
her phone waiting and waiting and hoping the right scroll would go by and finally it did. and it said, "Uh, Trump signs the Save Our Seas Act bill, cleans up
26:39
26 minutes, 39 seconds
Murray Pollution." And she finally got the picture. And when I came home that night, we joked, she goes, "I guess." She goes, "Well, apparently the media
26:47
26 minutes, 47 seconds
think Kanye West's more important than Noah." But, uh, which of course is true, but uh, anyways, that that's uh, so I have a little experience in there.
26:56
26 minutes, 56 seconds
Well, it's so funny. I'm like because you're right who no offense Kanye West but it's not the most important thing to
27:04
27 minutes, 4 seconds
know as a news headline right Kanye probably love that knowing him that wasn't intentional he would have
27:11
27 minutes, 11 seconds
it's very much Kanye energy there a couple examples like that but uh that are good you can you can only laugh at
27:18
27 minutes, 18 seconds
it's 100% you you can because it's not and it's typical for news media to do that right I'm curious if you've heard
Chapter 9: Future of UAP task forces
27:26
27 minutes, 26 seconds
anything about the task force. So, the task force should be ending to some degree soon um and it will wrap up. I I
27:34
27 minutes, 34 seconds
don't know if a lot of people know that, but do you know if there might potentially be an extension or there'll be a new office or there'll be a new
27:41
27 minutes, 41 seconds
task force that um opens to deal with these types of inquiries? because we're looking at JFK, we're looking at MK Ultra Files, we're looking at UAP, we're
27:50
27 minutes, 50 seconds
looking at some of the deepest and darkest and scariest programs along with, you know, national intelligence uh
27:57
27 minutes, 57 seconds
secrets attached to it. So, do you think that there will be a new version of this and what would it look like?
28:04
28 minutes, 4 seconds
Well, that's that's a good question. I I don't really know. Uh I I mean under the congressional task force Berles and Luna
28:13
28 minutes, 13 seconds
are committed to getting transparency and achieving transparency and I I'm really excited about that. So at least
28:20
28 minutes, 20 seconds
for their tenures absolutely yes it will it will continue. I don't know when their tenure or their planned
28:27
28 minutes, 27 seconds
termination of that is. Uh so u I've yeah I've not stayed in touch with that. I've been focused on my specific role.
28:35
28 minutes, 35 seconds
uh and now now I'm on the science advisory council which is sort of shifted my focus to be more with the
28:42
28 minutes, 42 seconds
executive branch uh but I whenever I am called to support and speak and I was just this June I think outside on the
28:50
28 minutes, 50 seconds
hill um I certainly will support any of the members and what they're trying to achieve with respect to transparency for sure and I hope that this type of
28:58
28 minutes, 58 seconds
task force then starts to grow right it it has to mutate and become something different because people are going to want it as years go on and new programs
29:07
29 minutes, 7 seconds
are discovered because the interesting thing with UFOs and all these different topics is we know it's a web. We see that you get, you know, one little thing
29:16
29 minutes, 16 seconds
is connected to another story and then to another project and to another project. And so I do understand why fundamentally we cannot release
29:25
29 minutes, 25 seconds
everything about UFOs because it's so deeply attached to national security secrets and it would really unravel the
29:32
29 minutes, 32 seconds
way that Americans and North Americans see themselves and how they identify in society. It doesn't mean that we can't
29:40
29 minutes, 40 seconds
talk about what we consider to be real or or realities within those, but we can't always kind of break down every single program because it will make us
29:48
29 minutes, 48 seconds
vulnerable to foreign adversaries. But it also does open up the question of, you know, what has Americans and and
29:57
29 minutes, 57 seconds
NATO and all of these different intelligence agencies around the world that have been working together, you know, what have they done that has targeted civilians and has not been properly, you know, overseen.
30:10
30 minutes, 10 seconds
Yes. Right. We we absolutely have to keep this congressional oversight or really help them achieve a level of it that they've unable been unable to
30:18
30 minutes, 18 seconds
achieve. I think it's important for our for our society in general. Um, you know, interesting. I'll go into some examples here because it's it is going
Chapter 10: Undersea anomalous phenomena
30:26
30 minutes, 26 seconds
to be difficult for a lot of information to come out because of the national security implications and I'll give a real brass tax example. So, I've spoken
30:35
30 minutes, 35 seconds
on some other shows about the submarine officers who've come to me and they they have very clearly seen underwater
30:43
30 minutes, 43 seconds
submerged objects that behave in ways our submerged submarines and undersea capabilities cannot re reproduce. And uh
30:52
30 minutes, 52 seconds
I've had about uh um four five four submarine officers, an acoustic uh two
30:59
30 minutes, 59 seconds
acoustic intelligence specialists. Uh one both operated uh acoustic um uh
31:06
31 minutes, 6 seconds
sonoule enabled aircraft basically and and their their their observations are absolutely right on the money and things
31:15
31 minutes, 15 seconds
that we just absolutely can't do. And so, um, then of course just this week, Dave Grush gets on Joe Rogan and he
31:22
31 minutes, 22 seconds
talks about something that has been trickling out in various ways about a a large UAP in the Atlantic that is sort
31:31
31 minutes, 31 seconds
of a mother ship for USOs and UAPs and uh 10 city blocks in size, is mobile, it
31:38
31 minutes, 38 seconds
can move and um now I personally have not touched that program. I I I didn't unlike Dave I I have not spoken to
31:46
31 minutes, 46 seconds
anybody who shared that with me. It's only come out in other venues. And so he and her here Dave is he's testified in front of Congress. So he's he's been
31:55
31 minutes, 55 seconds
he's touched all these different special access programs. Uh and so that was interesting and convincing. And of course, it aligns with something that an
32:04
32 minutes, 4 seconds
entity that I have ever kn didn't even know about called the National Underwater
32:11
32 minutes, 11 seconds
Reconnaissance Office, Nuro, the the undersea equivalent of NRO. Here I was the top oceanographer of the Navy with
32:19
32 minutes, 19 seconds
several SAP readins and I had never even heard or been read in that office or I didn't know they existed. But Bobby Ray
32:27
32 minutes, 27 seconds
Inman, former director of national intelligence, I believe, or naval intelligence or maybe both, fourstar admiral retired, spoke about it uh
32:36
32 minutes, 36 seconds
publicly at a recorded venue acknowledging its existence. And that just made me think, holy cow, that this
32:43
32 minutes, 43 seconds
this is so sensitive that I even I was not read into it. And so this all aligns with the existence possibly of that kind of phenomena in in the ocean. Holy cow.
32:56
32 minutes, 56 seconds
And and the thing is is that I I would want to marshall all of our US ocean research assets to characterize those
33:04
33 minutes, 4 seconds
those phenomena better. But what that does is it touches on undersea warfare collection capabilities and those are
33:13
33 minutes, 13 seconds
always TS and compartmented. We it's it's one of the highest most sensitive defense department war department
33:21
33 minutes, 21 seconds
defense capabilities we have as our undersea forces because of the real unique nature of what they can do
33:28
33 minutes, 28 seconds
defensively and in a deterrence set uh scenario uh and uh and for good reason.
33:34
33 minutes, 34 seconds
I wouldn't want any of those our our submarine assets to be compromised. So there's the there's the the sort of
33:41
33 minutes, 41 seconds
knife's edge we're on is right. I I do want to see more research into undersea phenomena, anomalous phenomena, but I
33:48
33 minutes, 48 seconds
also don't want to compromise our submarine force. How are we going to make that work? I don't know. And it touches on also undersea intelligence, which is again going to we're always
33:57
33 minutes, 57 seconds
going to be very tightly uh restrict restrictive on that in terms of what our capabilities are and what our adversaries capabilities are. And that
34:05
34 minutes, 5 seconds
so that that's one 100%. And how far are these bases underwater do you think that David Grush is alluding to these large cities, you
34:14
34 minutes, 14 seconds
know, this kind of mothership? Because here's the thing. I do believe that, you know, we get about 90% of the things
34:23
34 minutes, 23 seconds
that we do see or maybe even 99% of the things we do see within the sky, let's just say, are generally potentially foreign adversaries. And it's that small
34:31
34 minutes, 31 seconds
1%. And I think a lot of people who follow this topic would agree with that.
34:35
34 minutes, 35 seconds
You know, I think they're more common than we expect, but I do think it's a very small percentage that is anomalous that we can understand. And I do believe
34:42
34 minutes, 42 seconds
people when they say they've had these experiences. Now, that's within the sky.
34:47
34 minutes, 47 seconds
But looking at the water and understanding that we have not explored
34:51
34 minutes, 51 seconds
[laughter]
34:52
34 minutes, 52 seconds
not much of it at all. We've explored space more than we have our own um our own seas. you know, how far does that
35:00
35 minutes
base need to be in the water? And is it possible for then within Americans or other government programs to be able to create something like that that's an
35:08
35 minutes, 8 seconds
underwater base? You know, because technically you could create something that looks like a base. But if there if what Grush is speaking to would have to
35:15
35 minutes, 15 seconds
be so far in the depths of the sea, I would imagine that it would be impossible for us to build something like that.
Chapter 11: Exploring the oceans
35:23
35 minutes, 23 seconds
Oh, I don't think we we don't possess that capability right now. Something as large as he describes with the
35:31
35 minutes, 31 seconds
capabilities that it it possesses. And and I actually I'm aware of communications, classified
35:38
35 minutes, 38 seconds
communications about there being UAP observed coming out of the ocean in five to seven or so places around the world,
35:46
35 minutes, 46 seconds
locations, uh which could potentially be a a a signal, if you will, that there are these other other regions where
35:54
35 minutes, 54 seconds
these mother ships are. So yeah, we we can't produce that right now to the best of my knowledge. And um and the implications are really significant
36:03
36 minutes, 3 seconds
because then that means what what there's some civilization inhabiting our planet and we are really and it's it's
36:10
36 minutes, 10 seconds
remaining undetected purposely uh avoiding us but operating with impunity in our airspace and water space. And by
36:18
36 minutes, 18 seconds
the way, it would not be hard for this object to uh or these objects to uh remain undetected because uh one again
36:27
36 minutes, 27 seconds
we we may be detecting them with classified uh acoustic intelligence systems, but to the best of my knowledge, no one I know has told me
36:35
36 minutes, 35 seconds
about those detections, but but then they're always classified. So that that'd be the reason. And and the other is again our oceans are so unexplored.
36:43
36 minutes, 43 seconds
We have only explored with data collection systems like drones and buoys and drifting
36:49
36 minutes, 49 seconds
floats. Uh about 10% of the ocean volume 90% of the ocean volume of our planet
36:58
36 minutes, 58 seconds
has never even been explored or or observed or had data collected on it. So it's not that difficult to think these these objects could remain undetected.
37:09
37 minutes, 9 seconds
But wouldn't we hear things through other countries and potentially their own national securities being leaked
37:16
37 minutes, 16 seconds
about these massive mother ships in the water like in the sea? Like here's the thing. I actually think I you know I
37:25
37 minutes, 25 seconds
like the USO conversation more than sometimes I think about what's going on in the skies because I think it's just more likely sometimes as foreign adversaries potentially. But the water
37:34
37 minutes, 34 seconds
again is such a different space and such a scary space. um and and harder I would imagine to be able to build and construct, right? So much harder.
37:44
37 minutes, 44 seconds
Yeah.
37:45
37 minutes, 45 seconds
I actually have a story about that in my book. So there's a I was at a a NASA um
Chapter 12: Ocean versus space science
37:51
37 minutes, 51 seconds
NASA has a a space center at Stenis, Mississippi, and I worked there. I had a job there and and one day they had this
37:58
37 minutes, 58 seconds
event where the NASA invited some former astronauts from the Mercury program to have a little panel and uh it was about
38:05
38 minutes, 5 seconds
a new education space education initiative they launched and the astronauts were these ambassadors for it and then and uh was Wally Shira, Gordon
38:14
38 minutes, 14 seconds
Cooper. Wow, what an honor to be able to meet these people before they passed.
38:18
38 minutes, 18 seconds
and uh Scott Carpenter. And when it got to Q&A, I came up and I knew that Scott Carpenter had had been an astronaut as
38:26
38 minutes, 26 seconds
well as an aquinaut in a program called Seab. And he held at one point the longest, you know, human endurance record for living underwater in this
38:35
38 minutes, 35 seconds
habitat. And so I asked him uh I said, "Hey, you you you've been an astronaut and an aquinaut. How would you compare
38:43
38 minutes, 43 seconds
working and exploring in those two domains?" and and he wasn't expecting that because everybody was talking about space and space education. So he he he
38:52
38 minutes, 52 seconds
he paused a bit and he thought he goes, "Well, I'll tell you this." He says, "Space when you're in space, uh it's
39:00
39 minutes
glorious. Everything is bright and shiny and it happens in an instant. You're on the pointy end of a rocket. you go off
39:07
39 minutes, 7 seconds
in into orbit and uh and and it's just such a a monumental just a energizing thing. And then he
39:16
39 minutes, 16 seconds
paused and he said, "But but the ocean is a lot different. It's it is difficult and hard and cold and things break and
39:25
39 minutes, 25 seconds
you'll be tested like you nowhere else will would be." And um and I thought, man, that's that's that's quite a
39:33
39 minutes, 33 seconds
statement. And it's funny because uh Kennedy had that one speech where he talked about going to the moon. He said, "We do these things because they're
39:41
39 minutes, 41 seconds
hard." If you recall that, President Kennedy and and I and to me I took that as a sort of challenge. I thought, okay,
39:49
39 minutes, 49 seconds
here Kennedy says it's hard to go to the moon. And here Scott Carpenter is telling me the ocean, the space is a
39:56
39 minutes, 56 seconds
cakewalk compared to the ocean. and and he's right because I've been at sea for years and things do break and it'll test
40:03
40 minutes, 3 seconds
you. Uh and so anyways, I I I took some pride in knowing that was my field of study and work and when he characterized it in that way.
40:12
40 minutes, 12 seconds
It's so true. It's when I think of the water, it's not that I'm scared of the ocean. I'm a very much of a lake girl
40:20
40 minutes, 20 seconds
personally. I love lakes. I love I love a good lake. They can be scary too at the bottom of those. But uh but with that said, I'm like I you know I I
40:28
40 minutes, 28 seconds
imagine you know living in the water and working on the water. But back to my original question to the just all the
40:36
40 minutes, 36 seconds
different countries around the world and their own national security secrets. You would think that there would be conversations over the years about
40:44
40 minutes, 44 seconds
larger bases within you know off different coasts. And we don't always hear that. And maybe maybe I'm just not
40:51
40 minutes, 51 seconds
the one who's hearing it but we don't always hear it. We hear about other potential programs and UAP related stuff that is within within the air within the
40:59
40 minutes, 59 seconds
air but we don't really hear much within the sea within different countries. Do you know why that might again because undersea capabilities and
41:08
41 minutes, 8 seconds
systems are so tightly classified and that that's the reason. So for example there is a big program we call it a US
41:15
41 minutes, 15 seconds
and Australia the UK and the US are partnering to develop next generation submarine capabilities and and so much of that is classified.
41:26
41 minutes, 26 seconds
So if we all have somehow learned and had access to these large undersea bases, we are keeping that we we're
41:34
41 minutes, 34 seconds
keeping the lid on that 100% for sure because again because that'll just ultimately could lead to revealing things like our submarine acoustic
41:43
41 minutes, 43 seconds
signatures which we don't want to do and and so that that's what I I believe is happening right now. And yeah, to uh I I do want to see more research into the
41:51
41 minutes, 51 seconds
phenomenon in the ocean again, but this there's this a tricky thing there with national security restrictions.
Chapter 13: Citizen science and youth
41:57
41 minutes, 57 seconds
Well, true. And if you keep people looking up, they're not going to be looking down, right? If you keep everything in the skies and you keep the conversation in the skies, you're not
42:05
42 minutes, 5 seconds
going to be looking in the oceans until you came around. [laughter] Well, there you go. Yeah. And but I'm
42:12
42 minutes, 12 seconds
still going to work that. And in fact, you touched on something previously. I think the amount of citizen science that's occurring a and just interest in
42:21
42 minutes, 21 seconds
the public is growing to such an extent that it [clears throat] might just be like you said we're going to achieve disclosure on our own without the government's hand because you're seeing
42:30
42 minutes, 30 seconds
universities establish research programs more students want to get into this I I have had a good number of students come
42:36
42 minutes, 36 seconds
to me and say hey I I want to do a a UAP thesis for my masters or PhD work some are already doing it by the way uh and
42:44
42 minutes, 44 seconds
uh and that's growing by the numbers. And I actually do hope that we we see more undergraduate
42:51
42 minutes, 51 seconds
curricula established uh involving aspects of UAP whether they be from a
42:58
42 minutes, 58 seconds
actual astronomy search kind of meth uh aspect or maybe physics-based or even the kind of culturally based from an
43:06
43 minutes, 6 seconds
anthropological perspective that uh there are research areas and curricula established in maybe almost two dozen
43:14
43 minutes, 14 seconds
universities right now. Uh and and so that's that's encouraging to me because it's only going to grow as more students want to get into this topic.
43:22
43 minutes, 22 seconds
Yeah, I agree. I had a conversation my last podcast. I actually focused on Gen Z and so I brought a Gen Z uh I believe
43:29
43 minutes, 29 seconds
I forget what university he was at. um but he was a political science major and was writing a lot of um articles online
43:38
43 minutes, 38 seconds
and I ended up just you know bringing him in cuz I was like let's have this conversation about Gen Z and UFOs because you know the statistics that I'm seeing in one of the larger feature
43:46
43 minutes, 46 seconds
pieces I wrote was that Gen Z and I'll use the word believe um or you know agree that there is something happening
43:54
43 minutes, 54 seconds
right that they follow the UFO topic because and they're so deeply attached to it because of news media and So going on what you said, I think it's so
44:03
44 minutes, 3 seconds
important because now they're able to be able to think a little bit freer, be able to then research UFOs on their own and hopefully academically. I think
44:11
44 minutes, 11 seconds
that's really wonderful for the next generation. But I'm also worried about the next generation and how they view this reality and what is real and what
44:19
44 minutes, 19 seconds
isn't real, you know, when it comes to UFOs and the conversation of NHI and are we kind of gaslighting them so that when
44:29
44 minutes, 29 seconds
they do become in come into power and you know I'm an elder millennial and as the rest of the generations you know decide to step down and maybe retire and
44:38
44 minutes, 38 seconds
not rule the world and we have this younger generation now are they going to be so gaslit with disinformation information that they won't even be able to make the right decisions or they're
44:46
44 minutes, 46 seconds
not going to be they weren't previously guided properly.
44:50
44 minutes, 50 seconds
That is a valid concern, Christy, and I really love that you did had that episode. Uh and I really to be honest with you, and it's really it's really
44:58
44 minutes, 58 seconds
what why I wrote this book is is to lift up the next generation in terms of providing leadership examples. That's
45:05
45 minutes, 5 seconds
that I'm really that's where and that's where I am with this topic of UAP is I I think our we owe it to our our youth to
45:14
45 minutes, 14 seconds
tell the truth and set an example of that and that that's you know I went into this space for no other reason than that. I I'm not looking for notoriety.
45:23
45 minutes, 23 seconds
It's nothing I enjoy to be honest with you. But it we deserve to be told the truth. And uh and if we if we act like
45:31
45 minutes, 31 seconds
that, then we know that that our our future generations will do the same. I I think which is important for society.
Chapter 14: Ethical transparency
45:39
45 minutes, 39 seconds
It's so important. They're going to be making some of the biggest decisions that they'll make for humanity ever in the years to come. And we need to
45:47
45 minutes, 47 seconds
make sure that they're properly equipped, their mental health is properly equipped, and they're properly equipped to be able to how to distinguish, you know, what is right and
45:56
45 minutes, 56 seconds
what might be wrong, both, you know, morally hopefully but and ethically, but even just making the right decisions.
46:03
46 minutes, 3 seconds
Now, this is why I brought up the military-industrial complex because I feel that the sometimes there is that mechanism within there that wants to
46:10
46 minutes, 10 seconds
keep a population, you know, on edge so that they don't make the right decisions so that it's easier to convince them to
46:17
46 minutes, 17 seconds
be able to follow a direction that's already pre-planned. You know, people could say that's so conspiratorial, but we we've kind of seen it. And there's
46:26
46 minutes, 26 seconds
multiple programs that would point to saying that that actually is more likely than having the freedom of choice.
46:34
46 minutes, 34 seconds
Yeah, you're right about that. I mean, I think about the uh the MK Ultra. You probably I don't know if you covered that on your shows.
46:40
46 minutes, 40 seconds
100%. Yeah, I talked to the the Canadian victims out here. Yeah.
46:44
46 minutes, 44 seconds
Have you really? That's so shameful and I I uh I just it's it's embarrassing. uh
46:51
46 minutes, 51 seconds
for our country and I uh so that I'm glad right I'm glad you you covered it that's great and so and and as we go forward in
47:01
47 minutes, 1 second
the little sphere I have which isn't isn't actually that little uh I I besides truth like you said also ethics
47:10
47 minutes, 10 seconds
and morality I I still believe it's those are values to uphold and there's nothing wrong with that and it's an
47:18
47 minutes, 18 seconds
example we need to set for our our again our our next generation.
47:22
47 minutes, 22 seconds
I agree. My one last question to you and maybe you've spoken about this and I've just missed it in your body of work, but
Chapter 15: Closing thoughts on disclosure
47:30
47 minutes, 30 seconds
when we look at crash retrieval programs, are there USO crash retrieval programs? And here's the thing, we could say Shag Harbor was a USO, but we all could say could say it was a UFO, right?
47:41
47 minutes, 41 seconds
Um or a UAP. We don't really know. We have a lot of documentation around Shark Shank Harbor more than we do in Roswell,
47:49
47 minutes, 49 seconds
which is unbelievable. But, uh, I think of the idea of it coming out of the water or into the water because it was
47:56
47 minutes, 56 seconds
crashed. It crashed into the water. Um, do we have a lot of USO crash retrieval kind of programs because we always talk
48:04
48 minutes, 4 seconds
about majority of the crash retrieval programs being on land, but how many do you think would be in water?
48:09
48 minutes, 9 seconds
Right. So, uh, by the way, I just was in Halifax and I know Nice. [laughter] We didn't get down to Shag Harbor, but Oh, that's a shame.
48:20
48 minutes, 20 seconds
I know. I know. Uh, we we looked it up and but we were in uh we were in in Halifax and then we drove we actually
48:27
48 minutes, 27 seconds
stayed near Oak Island. Uh, because we're fans of that show and Okay. I was going to say I was like that's such a massive show. A friend of
48:34
48 minutes, 34 seconds
mine produces that actually with the with um Prometheus. Yeah. What's her or his name?
48:41
48 minutes, 41 seconds
His Oh my gosh, I'm for uh Nolan. He's gonna he's was gonna kill me for a second.
48:46
48 minutes, 46 seconds
Didn't meet him. But uh no, and actually I'm also um an adviser to Brandon Fugal for Skinwalker Ranch. That's the other
48:54
48 minutes, 54 seconds
History Channel show. That's those two are the top shows right now. But ultimately, we we enjoyed that. Uh didn't get there. To answer your
49:01
49 minutes, 1 second
question, uh want to go to Shag Harbor eventually, but uh have not. Uh the interesting answer is this. So Eric
49:08
49 minutes, 8 seconds
Davis is uh well known in the UAP circles. He was a physicist who worked he who who was involved with the
49:17
49 minutes, 17 seconds
Bigalow's NIDS Institute and has u quite a bit of knowledge on on the legacy program crash retrievals and he his he
49:26
49 minutes, 26 seconds
stated openly this that now I can't remember how many but it's upwards of a few dozen uh that have been recovered
49:35
49 minutes, 35 seconds
and twothirds of them are have been recovered from the maritime domain. did not know that.
49:43
49 minutes, 43 seconds
Yeah. How about that? So, who's doing the recovering? Again, it's obviously undersea assets, mostly US, and and they're they're so tightly classified
49:52
49 minutes, 52 seconds
that I didn't even know about them. Uh so, that's really shocking. It's actually though um it's it's very reasonable when you think about the fact
50:01
50 minutes, 1 second
that twothirds of the of the world is covered by the ocean. That twothirds of all the craft we've retrieved have been in the maritime domain. that that kind of aligns well with what you'd expect.
50:13
50 minutes, 13 seconds
Oh, that's interesting. I didn't know that statistic. I'm going to look into that more. And I lied about my friend's name. His name was Justin.
50:20
50 minutes, 20 seconds
Justin. Okay. All right. Well, look out for him.
50:23
50 minutes, 23 seconds
Okay. [laughter] Lovely.
50:25
50 minutes, 25 seconds
Prometheus. So, I'm with the other the Skinwalker Ranch Prometheus set set of folks and I've enjoy working with them.
50:32
50 minutes, 32 seconds
Yeah, I've heard they're wonderful. I've worked with them with Ancient Aliens uh myself and been on some of their programs on that, but I haven't done uh I obviously would not be doing Oak Island. That doesn't make sense for me.
50:42
50 minutes, 42 seconds
Yeah. But I actually I filmed once for Ancient Aliens. I'm going to do it again in November.
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Are you okay? I'll maybe I'll see you there. I'm gonna [laughter] Okay. All right.
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I'll be out there as well. Uh but I'll say I'm like I find that USOS are so interesting and they are really attached
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if we would call Shy Harbor, you know, attached to the Canadian lore. Gosh, we have it on our one of our tunies. So, I'll show an image of
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we have a couple. So, I find that the USO conversation is just so interesting and I think that there we need more
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people in your position to come forward and speak about USO. So, maybe actually my last question it will be to you. When
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do you think more people in the Navy will start coming forward or just people that have been associated with the Navy will be keep coming forward or will come
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forward or do you know of any that will be?
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After my hearing when I testified in November of 2024, I got a call from one of the crew members of the USS Omaha
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that took that well well publicized video of a UAP, spherical UAP with no flight control surfaces or means
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propulsion entering the water. Uh the person who was on the bridge is the the person who ended up testifying uh the
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year late a year later because when he called me, his name is Alejandro Wiggins and he's a senior chief petty officer in the US Navy, still active duty. He
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called me to tell me about all these things he was seeing from his ship off Southern California, including this Omaha UAP. And then he told me about
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being on the USS Jackson and and seeing them so often that they were desensitized to them. when he went and
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testified in 2025, he talked about on that ship seeing objects, an object come out of the water and then merge with two
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other UAPs and dart off into the sky, which it's in a statement. You can look it up. So, the the ocean component more
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and more is coming out. And I told you I've had witnesses come to me with different sightings and I'm I'm logging
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all of these and encouraging them to come forward to go to Congress. And actually now that the uh Aaron Lucas who
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was uh the the principal deputy director of national intelligence put in a memo the releasing anybody who had been on
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UAP NDAs from their NDA so that they could come to the pursue office in the White House or the OD and and discuss
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what they've observed. I'm hoping that will open up a floodgate for more Navy personnel and intelligence personnel to come forward with what they know. Yeah,
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I think the pursue I know that people think that it's not going to do anything. A new pathway forward, right, for people to be able to speak freely
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without being scared that something might happen to them um or be able to be ridiculed even more within their own
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workforce. Right. U we've seen so many people have had challenging times now even trying to get jobs after the fact that coming forward have been still ridiculed within their own community.
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So, you're hoping that that this pathway forward with pursue and and that new I believe it was I forget exactly what it
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was called. It wasn't um I call it a pathway, but the new order I guess they would say they would put forward that
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keeps changing so that whistleblowers do have those freedom of protection to be able to speak freely. So, it's important. Now, I I will actually say this is my last question.
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Okay.
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So, I'm I'm curious. I have to ask you, you know, outside of the stuff that David Grush said on Joe Rogan in most
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recent weeks, I think it was just last week. I'm so curious your thoughts on this concept of now he has come forward
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and said things about you know seeing video not with his own with his own eyes in video but not in person of this blue
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kind of like light likekinned being and fighting with reptilians in the sky and then we're having grays and reptilians
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fighting like Tim like I will say because we all know this is such deep deep lore within UAP you know we've
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heard this is not new from David Gush for him saying it as an intelligence official it is extremely new but outside
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of that we've heard this lore you know forever so is the question is it somewhere in the middle is the truth or
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you know is David Grush you know is has he lost his marbles in that case or is he telling the truth um or has he been
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misguided um or has then the lore always been right since the beginning that people start speaking about UAPs and
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NHIS Yes, big question, Chrissy. I I don't know. Okay. I have not had anybody who's
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con who I trust other than him and I do trust him and so did Congressman Burlson. He hired him for a time. So, uh
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he is trustworthy. Uh but I don't know of anybody else who's confirmed that to me. Okay. But here is something that I
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found interesting. Now, uh it the part of the lore, this is not known by me.
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This is the lore you refer to is that the joint special operations command J-C are the military assets that have been
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involved with crash retrieval. Uh so so with that as as a background possibility
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uh I find it very interesting that when I got uh when I went and got secured endorsements for my book and I have some
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really high power endorsements. I have a former NATO Supreme Allied Commander. I have General Kelly who was a former DHS secretary and White House chief of
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staff, several others. Uh I I asked Bill McCraven, the former JSOW commander, who is a friend of mine who I I have known.
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Uh I asked him to if he'd endorse my book, and he said, "Sure." Uh I also asked uh a woman named Dr. Megan Beni,
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formerly MacArthur, who was my classmate at Scripps, if she'd do it, and she said sure. And and as everybody else who
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endorsed the book, both MacArthur, the Ast NASA astronaut, she was I'm sorry I didn't say that. She was a NASA astronaut and JC Commander McCraven
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after they read my book, they said, "Sorry, Tim. I'm not going to give you an endorsement because I don't agree with your position on UAP disclosure,
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and I would not want to be appear to be endorsing it." So, what does that tell you? I I not I I mean to me there's
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there's a possibility that maybe on religious grounds uh Admiral McCraven possibly disagrees with my acknowledgement of UAP and NHI but the
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more likely answer is he's probably on a lifetime NDA as is most NASA astronauts because of their direct knowledge of the
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phenomena and and and so again I don't know for a fact that JOC does crash retrievalss but if any unit in the
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military is going to do them, it's going to be them. And so there so you just you have that we are getting to this point now and
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it's so funny where the line will be drawn in the sand depending on what side of the disclosure movement you are on.
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You know, we're getting I think closer and closer within government to having those conversations more than ever. And then the average person will be the same
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way. And who knows, I have seen so many people at odds now online about what
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David Grush said. You know, so many people have dropped out of the topic. So many people have, you know, leaned in a little bit further. And I don't know
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where I said it with his conversation because I actually don't know. I'd have to see evidence. And that's what I want to see. And I think as we all do, I want
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the EV, right? All the evidence what he is saying about, you know, blue aliens and all these things. I'm like, we need to see this now. Like, Grush, I respect
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you and thank you for serving in in what he has done. Uh, but we also at this point in time, you know, it's lip service now until we see this evidence
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and we need to see it. And I appreciate him pushing the ball forward because again, we need legislation to be able to help move that so we can have
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whistleblowers talk freely, but then also be able to come to what is an actual ultimate truth about the UFO
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topic. But you are right. We are seeing moments right now where people are drawing the line in the sand and what side of the disclosure movement do they
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do they think they belong on or do they actually um live on?
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Right. Right. And I just gave you an example of two very notable people who have picked the side that I'm not on and uh which surprised me. We should do a
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poll uh Tim and you and I and like just right across all of different parts of government and and everywhere and say
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you know what side do you what side of the disclosure line are you on? So I'm curious yeah I'm curious if what people would say thank you so much for being
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rebellously curious with me today and thank you for all the work you've done and for serving um you know we need people like yourself within places of
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leadership because it will help guide people I feel in the right direction and make good decisions. So, thank you so much for writing this book and being in
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the place that you are now in society today.
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Well, thank you, Chrissy. And we need people just like you as well communicating the message for us in such a professional way. So, thank you.