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war with china has been a significant topic around  the world are we closer than we think as of now  
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we know the start of the chinese uap task  force is being assembled what does this mean  
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to our national security if we go to war with  china and the uap technology they might find  
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former u.s army counter-intelligence special  agent and former employee of the office of the  
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united security of defense for intelligence louis  elizondo joins me to discuss the uap politics  
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around china and international relations join us  as we get rebelliously curious uh lou thank you  
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for being on rebelliously curious i've been really  looking forward to talking to you this entire week  
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so i want to start off with a little bit of a  larger conversation around china so china right  
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now that we know there are conversations about  going to war and i want to talk to you and what   you think in your perspective how close are we and  i'm going to use a game of thrones reference here  
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bending the knee to beijing wow um you know the  problem is is when we get into a semi-political  
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conversation we are by by necessity we have to  pick sides and of course when we do that we're  
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going to isolate other people in the conversation  but let me give you my my perspective and and let  
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me caveat my perspective is simply my own i don't  my view is not not represented represented or  
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representative of anybody else but me i'm not  speaking on behalf of the government i'm not   speaking on behalf of chris and my colleagues  or anybody like that it's just just luke  
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i think we have been approaching foreign politics  incorrectly for a very long time when i say we i  
Chapter 2: Strategic rivalry
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mean not just i mean the united states but i also  mean other countries as well there seems to be  
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this notion of zero-sum gain meaning if i take  this for me it comes from you and you're gonna  
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have you're gonna lose something for me to gain  and vice versa and so when you look at the cold   war and the way the united states was with you  know then soviet union it was an all-or-nothing  
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chess match and meaning if if russia gets cozy  with this country that means we're going to lose  
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that country and if we gain you know through  trade agreements access to this country russia  
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is going to lose that country and so there was  this you know almost like tipping of the scale  
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who who could who could leverage it enough where  it was always in our favor and that's true on on  
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both sides and it's it's also true with china and  it's true with many countries around the world  
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i'm not sure really is diplomacy uh is i don't  think it is a zero-sum game i don't think  
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someone has to lose in order for someone to win um  there the tensions right now with with china have  
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are really really high and there's a lot at stake  of course taiwan being one of them right um we  
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are are the way we left afghanistan was was not  optimum to say the least um we we put not just  
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our own people in danger we we really  jeopardize the safety and well-being of a   lot of people from a lot of different countries  you know and and my big concern right now is  
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and i'll get to the china thing in a minute  you know we spent two decades trying to bring  
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get give women the rights that they need and  deserve over there and and give them a voice  
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and now as we left the way we did that voice is  being used to persecute them those who stood out  
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for the last 10 20 years to support the rights of  women are now being targeted because they did that  
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and we haven't offered any any assistance you  know we have an interpreter that had to find his  
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own way back home after after really giving much  of his life to to to another country's cause so  
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um china is not dumb they they see that they see  that that um sometimes in our country politics  
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will override um good decision-making and again  i'm not being political here as far as what party  
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i'm i've always been a political people assume i'm  either you know a republican or some people assume  
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i'm a democrat you know my politics are mine and  i don't don't force them down anybody's throat  
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i think china is very smart china has been around  we've been around as a country united states for  
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200 plus years um the longest uh standing republic  right now in the world is the little country i  
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just left san marino it's about 500 some odd years  old as a republic maybe six um china's been around  
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for millennia two thousand years and uh and um  they don't easily forget about things you know  
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when they teach chinese history in china they're  going back uh when you know europe was living in  
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the dark ages you know right china was was was a  a very organized society um i'm not saying china  
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is perfect by any means but they've been around  a long time been around a lot longer than just   about anybody else as a country and as a people  so uh they they tend to play the long game um  
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and and they they they play and you know what i've  always made this assertion that when we're playing  
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chess against russia you know we're playing  we're playing checkers when they're playing um   three-dimensional chess and in fact we're probably  replying not even doing that we're playing connect  
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four and they're playing three-dimensional chess  right the chinese um are a little bit different  
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they don't even they don't even play the same game  we play at all um they they they look at the world   a little bit differently and again not bad or  good just differently and we need to reconcile  
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they don't look at the world through the eyes of  western civilization they look at through through  
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the eyes of of the people's republic of china  they've been through so much as a people um that  
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you know and they've lasted they've lasted a long  time and so so we need to be understanding of that   and we need to understand that that the history  of china goes way back and that the people have  
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have have a strong connection to to their  homeland um and i don't think it's necessarily
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wait i gotta tell you chris what a hell of a great  question you know we could go on we could spend   honestly three hours on this um yeah and i wish  and i i want to i wish we could we're getting  
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close to the needle and one of two things is  going to happen um china's going to take taiwan   what does that mean for australia uh  
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well you know let's start with what it means for  us are we going to get involved or not well you   have the appetite for that right we just finished  iraq and in afghanistan after 20 years um do we  
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have the energy do the other resources you know  our economy isn't great right now well and i was   going to go into that like they're they're going  to be the economical power of the world in 2030.  
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you know right now they have a uap task force  too you know they're they're researching ufos  
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just as much as we are so what is that stuff too  that's not public that's really pretty advanced   and you know we've got a lot of catching up to do  and that's a problem well yeah what does that mean  
Chapter 3: National security challenges
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to our national security like is the pentagon and  any other officials having these conversations you   know and what are they saying what are you hearing  from them about them finding that technology yeah  
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using it against us there are some that are  having the conversation the problem with with   our our our system our political system here is  that you have politicians making decisions i'm  
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saying again this is forget about republican or  democrat i think just just a mere fact you have   politicians who don't necessarily  have experience in military tactics  
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um making military decisions and for  better for worse that's the system we   have the head of our secretary of defense and  our secretary of the army air force and services  
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they're all civilians and we did that by design  because we always wanted to avoid the temptation   of any military officer getting so senior  that they could take over the country right  
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um but the problem is that there's nothing wrong  with the civilian leadership the problem is when   those civilian leaders don't have the proper  experience and expertise to understand the nuances  
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of of of of you know geopolitical uh issues um a  lot of these folks just don't have the requisite  
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expertise they they don't have the education for  it they don't have the life experience for it they   don't have a professional experience for it and  so they're making decisions based on politics  
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and not on national security when i was at the  pentagon i can't tell you how many 27 year old  
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kids would come in because dad happened to give  up a million dollars to some campaign and so now  
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they've put on the presidential blue book and  and they're they're they're they're a schedule c  
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appointee making decisions at the senior executive  service level um without any requisite experience  
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or an accountability and and once once they're  in and they leave and they're out and okay i did   my job and i can go now you know go work for  some big lobbyists i guess or maybe law firm  
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but the damage is done and and for every year  of damage that's done it takes us four or five   years to recover from that and it becomes this  vicious cycle and it's it's a problem because  
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we don't want to have the conversation right now  we are so enveloped in our own personal issues  
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of what makes me feel good what makes me feel bad  and you hurt my feelings that we're losing sight   picture of of of the bigger problem here that's  that at the end of the day if we're not careful  
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it doesn't matter what the hell you think or feel  to believe it's going to be irrelevant because   you need to be told what to do by somebody else  right and we're seeing that the vice president of  
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taiwan is looking to have this golden triangle of  different countries in japan being one of them to  
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combat against china so i'm gonna go directly into  the ufo conversation though is would we be sharing  
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our information of what we understand about uaps  with that golden triangle of countries to be able  
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to combat china because the scary part is that  china if they potentially have more information  
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and research than we do on this that again it  can be used against us so would we be open to  
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sharing that information with them that are that's  classified to protect ourselves against absolutely  
Chapter 4: Collaboration and UAP diplomacy
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love this question and you know what i i without  going to detail i just had this with a very very  
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senior person two days ago literally two days ago  the question is you know do we do we can combat  
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china uh you know trying to us versus them or is  there another strategy and i'll share with you  
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there may be there may be an option c it might not  be at either or and what do i mean by that well  
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what if we decided um to take the advice of  president reagan at one point way back when  
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said you know if we were faced with reality of an  alien presence alien invasion coming to to earth  
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would that not be enough for all of us to unite  together right and and and put aside our petty   differences and i think at the time most people  agreed yeah that's probably what would happen  
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what if we were to take the topic of ufos and  rather than making a divisive issue where we're  
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going to share with this golden triangle what if  we reached out to china and russia directly and   said look guys i know we don't agree on a lot  of things but why don't we pool our resources  
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why don't we do something really bold and  something really novel and let's work together  
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let's put up i'm going to put 20 million  dollars you trying to put up 20 million   rush you put a 20 million dollars let's put some  sensors up there let's open this data to the world  
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let's make it in fact not even classified but  anybody and everybody have access to it right   and let's work on this project together now what  does that do it does one of a few things first of  
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all it makes them co-investors into a project that  that we all own equally nobody can control the  
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narrative right it democratizes this subject for  around the world it also does something else once  
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they commit resources now they're invested right  it's a lot harder to piss off your friends that  
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you're working on in something over here to go  and invade something like taiwan especially when  
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the the you know obviously the interests of  taiwan is semi-conductors and and their interests   over there it's monetary at the end of the day  right well what if you could make this even more  
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lucrative than than anything a thousand times  in what the semiconductor you know industry   can do right now and we say look this has the  potential to advance our civilization thousands  
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maybe millions of years of human evolution in  one generation would you want to be part of that  
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and maybe maybe we used it that approach and then  you know we don't have to worry about taiwan ever  
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being invaded or us being involved or worrying  about what australia has to say because it never   happens because we're all focused on a much bigger  more important issue um maybe that maybe that's  
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a solution yeah and i agree like you have one  of my questions here was talking about space   administrations because how they work together  they work really well together around the world  
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but then politically we see that countries that  are that are at odds work together in the space   so in in space administration so maybe we take  a cue from that and bring it into our politics  
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as well to say hey before we've we've done it  before you know we've had agreements with russia  
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uh over the north pole where we say hey look  you know boris if you see something you're   not quite sure if not sure it's us you can give  us a call and oh by the way same thing you know  
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my my good comrade john uh if we see something  coming over the north pole we're probably going   to call you before we decide to press a button  because we want to make sure you know there's  
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a difference between real war and you know me  seeing something on my radar not being quite sure   um and ufos was part of that one of the parts  of the agreement was that hey look you know  
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ufos are real we could wind up seeing them  on radar and confusing that as some sort of  
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provocation by your side we should probably have a  direct line to each other just to make sure before  
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each one either one of us gets a little bit too  antsy and you know presses the button there are  
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precedences for those type of relationships  existing um and you know there are areas of  
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mutual and and common areas i think that where we  work together look trade is a huge thing china the  
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number one trading partner is us right we love  the chinese products and they love to sell them   to us and we love to buy it um that relationship  they don't they don't want to they don't want to  
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um they don't want to do anything to jeopardize  that right and and and our ability to buy their  
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products depends on a good economy they don't  want necessarily us to have a bad economy they   just want to have a better one than us right  because we buy their products right um and so  
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also we owe them a lot of money and so they don't  want us to default on that right i'm not saying   again good or bad i'm not i'm not supporting  defending or or going against i'm just simply  
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telling what the facts are right so these are the  realities so so china has to be very careful too  
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china knows that that you know the us if really  really really gets provoked um you know they  
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don't want that either and and there's i don't  think we ever have to worry about an invasion for   example of china um the last time anyone really  seriously contemplated that was in world war ii  
Chapter 5: Global influence and space
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and there was a very senior level meeting with  the japanese and and someone famously said  
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i fear that behind every blade of grass there  is a rifle um that that that has kept us  
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to some degree here in the united states free of  any type of really world war iii type invasion  
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doesn't stop necessarily a nuclear strike  but you know there's other proxy ways to to   go after a country there's economic warfare for  example right there's other asymmetric things  
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you can do besides just invading a country  i don't think we have to worry about that   what we do have to worry about is a lot of  our interests um being impacted and affected  
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and worse our word we tell countries we're going  to stand up and we're going to stick behind you   and then we do something like the way we did  in afghanistan and it sent a very clear signal  
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to the world you know right now taiwan is really  nervous they're like whoa wait a minute you know  
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we we're just a few miles away from mainland  china and we've been you know we've been we've   been talking a lot a lot of rhetoric you know  talking a lot of smack as we like to say right uh  
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because we had big brother standing behind us but  now we're not quite sure if big brother is really   going to have our back right and that's a problem  um because it affects our credibility in the world  
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um you know the reason why the dollar is is  is the dollar is because people have faith  
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and confidence in our country and our economy  um but that's that's not guaranteed that's not  
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given that's not fair that's to be earned and  you know every time we make a poor decision   um that that hurts us that hurts our place in  what we're trying to achieve and also i'll tell  
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you we've done a lot of dumb things too as a  country i mean we haven't always been very nice   to other to our friends and neighbors so so that's  also problematic and this is where the world of  
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diplomacy comes in you know i i can't remember the  last time truly truly our country had a a a true  
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diplomat we had politicians and a  lot of times politicians politician   politics and diplomacy is the same act of  doing the same thing but for different reasons  
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politics is usually usually doing something for  self gain where diplomacy is doing something for  
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mutual gain so everybody all ships rise with the  tide where politics is usually not that way and  
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unfortunately we've had too many politicians and  not enough uh diplomats um you know trying to to  
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to work these issues for far too long  and i think that's part of the problem   so we decide to work with china and say plan c  you know is something that we decide to go with  
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are we going to adapt some of their i would  hope some of their best practices because  
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at this point um or i should ask you first do we  know of any other reporting that's come forward  
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from china about uaps because they have this  wonderful measuring system that they're doing  
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that's a threat index are we looking  at those as best practices and and   maybe including them in our own uh when we're  doing our own research within the government  
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but then also um you know what does china know  right now about uaps that we might not know  
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well we we we should be i don't think we we are  as much as we should be um which for me is very  
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disappointing we've got a long way to go um  for whatever reason over the last 15 years  
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we have allowed some of our adversaries  to gain a significant advantage over us  
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and um you can get on on any search engine and see  that that china is is really has invested heavily  
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i remember when a time when they launched  successfully their first satellite and it seems   you know to me i'm an old guy so it seemed like  yesterday but it wasn't now they you know are  
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extremely prevalent up there um up in space and  you know space is the next domain that is you know  
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we can talk about the old days of having armies  on the ground and then we got enough developer   we put navies on ships on water and then we got  really developed and put airplanes in the sky well  
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the the ultimate domain is space that's it he  who who he or she who controls space ultimately  
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controls everything else and you know the chinese  are are are doing very well in that area and we're  
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now we're failing to invest in next generation  technologies and bringing in bright young people   instead where we're promoting forgive me for  saying this but you know reality tv shows and  
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and and monday night sports instead of this  topic instead of of you know trying to [Music]  
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we give sports scholarships i guess my  point is chris here our priorities are wrong   we have for many many years place priorities  in the wrong areas whether it's celebrities  
Chapter 6: Societal priorities
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and musicians uh you know some of the  richest people of the world are people who   sing well that's great you're a good singer but  what are you contributing to society what are you  
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doing you know every time you get on the media  there's all these glamorous photos of these people  
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when when we got man we got a serious problem on  our hands yeah we've got we've got we are a nation  
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of ignorance we're not having the conversation  we're just not having it and you know i i part of  
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that issue i will tell you too truth be told it's  a double-edged sword for as wonderful as social  
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media is and and the wonderful things it can do it  can also be very very destructive and and people  
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out there there's a lot of people that it becomes  um you know it becomes the primary motivator for  
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a lot of what they do you know i have two young  daughters and i'll tell you i saw myself and my   my daughters watch these youtube videos of these  these self-help makeup and cosmetics people and  
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they would get so engrossed in it they'd spend  five six hours on it every single day and they'd   have to go and buy that next product and  i said guys you realize that's not beauty  
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you know beauty is here this is beauty you know  that that's that's not beauty that's cosmetics  
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that's an industry and they're trying to sell  you something and it's working um you know you   don't need to buy cosmetics to be beautiful i mean  don't get me wrong it's nice and lovely but that  
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shouldn't define who you are as a human being you  know this defines you this your heart defines you  
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everything else it's just a shell and we we i  think have we've got a long way to go chrissy  
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um you know the uap topic is is something for me  very near and dear but it's not the only thing   and i and i i don't think it is for it shouldn't  be for everybody else either we have we have  
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other issues we have to take care of like you  said with china you know like i said we need to   we need to arm our citizens with information  and then let the citizens decide what they  
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want to do that's a real democracy but we have  absconded so much and we have forfeited so much  
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of our rights and privileges out of whether  it's sheer laziness or who the heck knows  
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we're allowing people to make decisions  on our behalf that aren't qualified   nor do they have their best interests in our on  our behalf and and somehow we're okay with that  
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just you know feed me more mtv and feed me more of  of what i want you know give them circus and bread  
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um are you seeing that globally as well though  absolutely well you know what it's not just north  
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america yeah not to the degree i see it here  um there is an extreme amount of materialism  
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here and it's not i'm not saying that's good or  bad but we need to recognize it and we need to  
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tame it we can't let it control us and everything  we do you know i i cannot believe the hypocrisy  
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that exists right now and it does impact the ufo  topic too but the hypocrisy that i see is far  
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more insidious i see the hypocrisy to the point  where we don't even realize we're being hypocrites   from every single one of our politicians from  every single one of our elected leaders um  
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it's it's do as i say not as i do and uh that's a  problem for me i i i have a significant issue with  
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that so i i'm going to ask you this then lou where  do you see yourself then because you're taking   this to an international the uap conversation  internationally and you've been traveling  
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internationally talking about this and you know  we're saying you know next year starting now   and longer we'll we'll probably have more of an  international conversation around ufos so where do  
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you see your place then on that global stage you  know in the future where would you like it to be  
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the lou answer yeah or both i love both both where  where is it gonna go where do you think it's gonna   go and where do you see yourself in this yeah  well where i would hope to see myself would be  
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completely retired and no one ever knowing my name  or who i was and just disappearing into obscurity   um i'm a very private person despite  being you know public to some degree  
Chapter 7: Future of the UAP effort
24:38
24 minutes, 38 seconds
i'm that's not how i am i've lived my  entire life and career in the shadows   i prefer my anonymity in some cases in the past my  life depended on it in the jobs that i had um but  
24:50
24 minutes, 50 seconds
that's me personally um my hope is that i can get  this to a a level where it has its own momentum  
24:59
24 minutes, 59 seconds
and continues to build and get bigger  and bigger and better and better   and um you know i look i've often said i'm not  qualified to take this effort over the finish line  
25:11
25 minutes, 11 seconds
i never was i was never that guy and i know people  you know kind of think i am i'm going to keep  
25:17
25 minutes, 17 seconds
running the marathon until someone picks up the  baton and i'm not going to quit a moment sooner  
25:23
25 minutes, 23 seconds
but i'm not the guy to win the race i just started  the race and and my hope is that we will continue  
25:30
25 minutes, 30 seconds
to work together collectively as a team um people  like you and your audience that are part of this  
25:36
25 minutes, 36 seconds
effort they're equally just as important as what  i'm doing the only difference is that i happen to   have a camera in front of my face and they don't  but every time they get on twitter and every time  
25:45
25 minutes, 45 seconds
they read an article every time they they write  a letter to their their representative or the   elected official they have a conversation  around the dinner table or the water cooler  
25:52
25 minutes, 52 seconds
they're making a difference they're making a  change people are becoming aware of the reality   of this topic and that is important i can't  do that i can i can get in front of a camera  
26:01
26 minutes, 1 second
i can say a few words and you know people might  or might not listen but it's it's it's the the  
26:07
26 minutes, 7 seconds
proverbial army that's behind us in this topic  that's making a difference that's why congress  
26:12
26 minutes, 12 seconds
is paying attention not because lou elizondo said  it it's because their constituents are now saying   it because the media is seeing it because other  individuals in the government are saying because  
26:21
26 minutes, 21 seconds
people in other countries are saying it that  is the beauty that's that's what i marvel at   that i can sit back and go wow unbelievable  i cannot believe the momentum this has  
26:32
26 minutes, 32 seconds
uh on a topic that they tried to bury and crush  and destroy for so many years uh yeah and i can  
26:40
26 minutes, 40 seconds
even ask you then too you know like there's so  many people formally that have worked in the   government that have been helping to classify  ufos and and what's going on are you working  
26:49
26 minutes, 49 seconds
with anybody now internally in the pentagon  about foreign relations and if who if so who
26:58
26 minutes, 58 seconds
wow um yes um i i won't say who um it's  not up to me it's just like with the  
27:05
27 minutes, 5 seconds
you know recent book that jim mccaskey put out i  spent four years never mentioning his name because   he told me not to and i respected that um yes i am  we talked about this being for the la first three  
27:16
27 minutes, 16 seconds
years um three and a half years it's been a pro  mostly a defense in an intelligence conversation  
27:23
27 minutes, 23 seconds
but i'm not convinced that's where the  conversation needs to stay um i've said before   for the record especially this last year there you  know the defense community intelligence community  
27:32
27 minutes, 32 seconds
have a very specific purpose is something as a  threat that's it i don't want them involved in   anything else that's not involved with that  question there are other organizations you know  
27:42
27 minutes, 42 seconds
the u.s state department for example could really  help now this conversation engaging the foreign   relations committee in congress saying hey you  know we see the draft language and we need to work  
27:53
27 minutes, 53 seconds
with foreign allies what are you doing about it  you know nothing from secretary of state nothing   that's damn damn right yeah in congress the  foreign relations committee in the senate in  
28:01
28 minutes, 1 second
a house and they need to go and say hey state  department you see this you've seen the news   what are you doing about it because i want  to know nothing tell me about doing anything  
28:10
28 minutes, 10 seconds
yeah don't tell me you're not doing anything  about it i want to know what are you doing   about it and who are you doing it with exactly  where are we going and that is is where the  
28:19
28 minutes, 19 seconds
conversation needs to go um that's part of phase  two getting a much more comprehensive um level  
28:27
28 minutes, 27 seconds
of support and endorsement behind this and and  they're interested they are interested it's just   you know we we have to take incremental steps  moving forward and you know my hope is that now we  
28:37
28 minutes, 37 seconds
can engage folks like the united nations and maybe  nato and some other international organizations   and countries i think that's i think there's a lot  of value in that i think there's a lot of goodness  
28:47
28 minutes, 47 seconds
in that because again the two big things is no  country should have to single-handedly shoulder   the burden for this topic and have to pay for  it nor should any country control the narrative  
28:57
28 minutes, 57 seconds
because we've seen over the last seven years what  happens when a country controls the narrative when   much gets done so we need to we need to  democratize this conversation in a way that  
29:07
29 minutes, 7 seconds
because it affects everybody globally why  not bring the global community into the   conversation and you're going to lead me right  into the conversation about united nations you  
Chapter 8: Transparency and nuclear UAPs
29:15
29 minutes, 15 seconds
know icer and all these other groups are coming  together to talk about you know having uaps as a  
29:21
29 minutes, 21 seconds
formal conversation with the united nations where  are we on that and i believe san marino plays a  
29:26
29 minutes, 26 seconds
play uh plays in a place in that as well but can  you talk to talk to us about how close you are  
29:32
29 minutes, 32 seconds
and how close we are to having the united nations  represent the uh yeah i mean you're absolutely   right i mean there was a there was an effort in  1978 sponsored by grenada unfortunately didn't  
29:42
29 minutes, 42 seconds
it didn't make it to the finish line but it was  a hell of a great start uh our intent is to learn   lessons from from from their both their successes  and failures and that's precisely what we want to  
29:51
29 minutes, 51 seconds
do and go to the united nations and say hey this  is your job okay and um lest we forget it if you  
29:58
29 minutes, 58 seconds
don't feel like doing your job then we'll put  somebody else there to do it but that's your job   and and the united nations is there to represent  the will and the interests of the world and this  
30:09
30 minutes, 9 seconds
is a topic that involves all of us um you know  it's not difficult to create an international body   um we've done it before for many other things  whether it's climate change or anything else  
30:19
30 minutes, 19 seconds
so why not do it for this topic and and you know  the part of the the justification is look do you  
30:25
30 minutes, 25 seconds
really want pakistan going to war with with india  because one of them happens to have a uap over its  
30:30
30 minutes, 30 seconds
nuclear site and it's confused as a provocation  of war by the other side do you really want that   you know because if you do you're setting yourself  up for exactly that scenario so we should probably  
30:41
30 minutes, 41 seconds
look at this collectively and start really trying  to figure out what what this is and what this  
30:46
30 minutes, 46 seconds
means to to to our species yeah and this whole  thing right now too about robert salas that is  
30:52
30 minutes, 52 seconds
coming out currently in the news and him holding a  press conference on i believe this coming tuesday  
30:57
30 minutes, 57 seconds
uh i'm going to ask you your thoughts on that too  because it totally goes into our national security  
31:03
31 minutes, 3 seconds
you know did atip know during that time that the  that this was going on um and that the stories  
31:11
31 minutes, 11 seconds
okay yeah we did christian by the way i gotta  tell you this is one of the the best interviews   that i've had in a long time really really  thoughtful questions i want to just take  
31:21
31 minutes, 21 seconds
just a second to thank you um i mean honestly i  feel like i'm being interviewed either by cnn or  
31:28
31 minutes, 28 seconds
something like that i mean really i mean super  super elevated questions so hats off to you yeah  
31:33
31 minutes, 33 seconds
atip was aware uh of the nuclear connection  um you know we we really owe a lot because  
31:40
31 minutes, 40 seconds
there was a lot of information we didn't  have access to and it turned out that bob   robert hastings did he did a fantastic job in  his one book about uh the nuclear connection  
31:50
31 minutes, 50 seconds
um and we were able to validate and substantiate  exactly what was what he was saying um through   through intelligence reporting so he was right  not only was it was it good and accurate but  
32:01
32 minutes, 1 second
but at the end of the day it was helpful um in  some cases there was a little bit of information   we didn't have that he did and in other cases  of course we had some classified information he  
32:11
32 minutes, 11 seconds
didn't have but but it helped us um paint a little  bit more fill in the blanks if you will right  
32:17
32 minutes, 17 seconds
think of a mosaic uh or a jigsaw puzzle and  and his book definitely helped you know place   a couple pieces into the puzzle actually because  of him i was able to interview some people that  
32:27
32 minutes, 27 seconds
um i didn't even know existed and so it was very  helpful wow thank you for even i wasn't sure if i  
32:34
32 minutes, 34 seconds
was going to ask you that but you know the rule  man you can ask me there is there are no rules  
32:41
32 minutes, 41 seconds
you can ask me whatever you want it's one of my  favorite things about julie um and i love that   you're an open well it's sure not my looks is  it yeah it is too tough to get set out of here  
32:53
32 minutes, 53 seconds
so i want to ask you too has any other foreign  adversary contacted you about uap issues at all  
33:03
33 minutes, 3 seconds
i wouldn't be able to discuss that it's a great  question but that gets into a little bit more  
33:10
33 minutes, 10 seconds
of counterintelligence and security and uh you  know if if that were the case and there were  
33:15
33 minutes, 15 seconds
then there would be an interest by the united  states government to to to figure that out so   i you know i don't want to i don't necessarily  want to do something that may interfere with  
33:25
33 minutes, 25 seconds
somebody else's job um what i will say is there's  definitely interest by by by foreign governments  
33:31
33 minutes, 31 seconds
particularly in some cases foreign adversarial  governments um but uh you know i shouldn't be  
33:39
33 minutes, 39 seconds
surprised i mean it's it's an important topic  and you know a lot of these adversaries have   known for a long time the topic is real and just  now the us is kind of you know coming to the game  
33:48
33 minutes, 48 seconds
a little late um so they probably want to know  what we really know what our true intentions are   and and you know all the good things that  foreign intelligence services want to know  
33:58
33 minutes, 58 seconds
and are you briefing other countries right now  around the world like i because i can imagine that  
34:04
34 minutes, 4 seconds
tons of people want to know this and they only and  they have their own data and their own governments   have their own information but they don't know  what to do because they don't have the tech to  
34:12
34 minutes, 12 seconds
analyze this or the ability to are you becoming  that forefront with globally as someone that is  
34:18
34 minutes, 18 seconds
going to be briefing countries around the world  chrissy i would never want to um talk about or  
Chapter 9: Whistleblowing and integrity
34:27
34 minutes, 27 seconds
reveal information about a a third party without  their consent uh it's it's it's a bit like um
34:38
34 minutes, 38 seconds
you know when someone comes up and they say uh  did you have that conversation with joe about you  
34:43
34 minutes, 43 seconds
know xyz um probably talk to joe um because i i  don't want to like if you and i had a conversation  
34:52
34 minutes, 52 seconds
about something um hypothetically you and  i were married and we had a conversation   someone said hey did you talk to her about so  and so did you tell chrissy about this and i  
35:01
35 minutes, 1 second
would say you know what you need to talk to  chris about that because because it's not my   business to i can't answer on her behalf now if  she gives me permission to then absolutely we'll  
35:09
35 minutes, 9 seconds
talk but i'm not gonna i'm not gonna speak  out of school simply out of respect um   you know foreign countries are no different  than people you know and and some of them  
35:18
35 minutes, 18 seconds
want their privacy some of them really don't  care um it is a bit of a hot button topic so  
35:24
35 minutes, 24 seconds
right now countries are coming out of the  shadows um little by little think of a think of   a groundhog or a prairie dog just poking its head  out of the out of the out of the out of the hole  
35:33
35 minutes, 33 seconds
just a little bit to kind of look around right  the last thing we want to do is scare it so it   goes back in his hole for another 50 years uh we  want to encourage it and coax it out no it's okay  
35:42
35 minutes, 42 seconds
come out come on to the sun no one's going to hurt  you you know there's there's there's no no animals   with teeth out here uh we're all friends so i  guess i'm going to politely pass in a roundabout  
35:52
35 minutes, 52 seconds
way on that conversation but i suspect probably  i think you probably know the answer to that  
35:59
35 minutes, 59 seconds
i'll leave that be uh the last thing  i want to ask you too is your thoughts   on because you're known as a whistleblower but  whistleblower can mean many different things  
36:10
36 minutes, 10 seconds
what is your thought and i've asked this to other  people as well um what is your thought on the term  
36:16
36 minutes, 16 seconds
and what it means to be a whistleblower well and  and it and are you one because the one thing i'll  
36:23
36 minutes, 23 seconds
say is that whistleblowers i should actually  ask you this do you think blows are positive  
36:31
36 minutes, 31 seconds
i think the act of whistleblowing is  absolutely positive if there's malfeasance um  
36:38
36 minutes, 38 seconds
it but but how you do it is the important  thing it's not just blowing the whistle um  
36:44
36 minutes, 44 seconds
but you want to blow the whistle in order to  better the system um you you do it because  
36:50
36 minutes, 50 seconds
somewhere something is going wrong and you have  to fix it let me give you an example toyota  
36:59
36 minutes, 59 seconds
manufacturing they had on their assembly line a  red button that anybody on the assembly line had  
37:05
37 minutes, 5 seconds
the power to push and stop the production now  keeping in mind millions of dollars a minute  
37:11
37 minutes, 11 seconds
are lost when you hit that button and yet  they enabled every single person on the line  
37:17
37 minutes, 17 seconds
to hit that button when they needed to why because  there's a problem they didn't want that problem   to propagate and perpetuate over and over again  into many many cars and cause even bigger loss  
37:26
37 minutes, 26 seconds
right now until that red button was there there  were companies like here in america that would   just let cars keep rolling off the assembly line  and they were junk they were crap and you'd have  
37:35
37 minutes, 35 seconds
these recalls and in some cases you know almost  put companies into bankruptcy because they did not  
37:40
37 minutes, 40 seconds
empower they did not enable people to hit that red  button now what toyota would not want you to do is  
37:48
37 minutes, 48 seconds
hit that red button take all the corporate secrets  and then give it to honda as its competitor that's   not a whistleblower that's a spy that's not  what you're supposed to do a whistleblower  
37:58
37 minutes, 58 seconds
hits that red button so it can so that so the  assembly line can be fixed and do the right thing  
38:04
38 minutes, 4 seconds
it does not give you carte blanche to just go  out and and um give your adversaries information  
38:10
38 minutes, 10 seconds
um so i've been very careful that's why i don't  talk about anything that's in my non-disclosure   group people say he's hiding behind his nda yes  i do that's right because it means something i  
38:18
38 minutes, 18 seconds
took an oath i'm sorry that promise doesn't mean  something to other people you know what obviously   they never serve but what it does to me it's just  like marriage you know if i swear to you hey look  
38:28
38 minutes, 28 seconds
you know till death doeth part guess what  baby you and i are going to be buried   together i mean that means something that's  what it that's that's what those words mean  
38:38
38 minutes, 38 seconds
um and there are mechanisms to get around that  you know like in a relationship there's a divorce   if you both agree to have a divorce and same  thing with the government i left the government  
38:47
38 minutes, 47 seconds
because i had to divorce the government  in order for me to have this conversation   to hit the red button but that doesn't give me  an ability to take all the corporate secrets of  
38:57
38 minutes, 57 seconds
toyota or the government u.s government and go  give it to a foreign adversary and i think a lot   of times people think that's what whistleblowing  is no it's not whistleblowing is having the the  
39:07
39 minutes, 7 seconds
internal fortitude and the authority and the  ability and support to hit that red button um  
39:14
39 minutes, 14 seconds
you know i i don't know what i consider myself  chrissy i've been called a whistleblower and and  
Chapter 10: Conclusion and reflections
39:20
39 minutes, 20 seconds
by some people they say i am legally whistleblower  other people say i'm not um i i you know the term  
39:27
39 minutes, 27 seconds
is good i don't know if i fit that i don't know  if i want to be a whistleblower what i want to be   is is is i want to be a patriot i want to do  my job and however i have to do it i'll do it  
39:39
39 minutes, 39 seconds
you know sometimes the truest form of patriotism  patriotism you have to do things that don't seem   very patriotic sometimes um you know the true  the true patriot is going to ask questions  
39:51
39 minutes, 51 seconds
uh hard questions difficult questions and  that's okay you know so like again you and   i let's say we had a relationship if we really  really respect each other and trust each other  
40:01
40 minutes, 1 second
we're going to tell each other the truth because  we want to help each other out i'm not trying to   tear you down i'm not trying to belittle you i'm  not trying to put you beneath me i'm trying to  
40:08
40 minutes, 8 seconds
build you up because in a relationship i want you  to be everything and every bit better than i am   so but i have to be honest with you and you have  to be honest with me and that's the same thing  
40:17
40 minutes, 17 seconds
with this discussion in the u.s government i have  to be honest i've got to tell them what's wrong   i've got to tell them look the emperor's got no  clothes on right and you are that example though  
40:28
40 minutes, 28 seconds
do you think that more people within the  government are going to follow your lead in the   future and be this representative because you are  a representative in the ufo community in the voice  
40:39
40 minutes, 39 seconds
well they are you have people like christopher  mellon well but oh gosh for sure them as well   but do you think in other topics outside of the  uap that people within government are looking  
40:48
40 minutes, 48 seconds
at you as an example and going you know what this  is something and even maybe the government going   yeah maybe this is something that we should  do because we are we need to be transparent  
40:57
40 minutes, 57 seconds
and that's always the issue inside that have  definitely picked up saying this is a good   way to go you know there's a coalition of the  willing for sure right right um you know but it  
41:08
41 minutes, 8 seconds
i always have to be clear chrissy this this this  can't be a cult of personality thing it can't be   it can't be about me it can't be my journey right  it has to be about all of us we all have to stand  
41:17
41 minutes, 17 seconds
side by side and everybody will say oh lou you're  leading the cause actually i'm not really leading   when i look to my left and i look to my right  i see a whole army of people we're all standing  
41:26
41 minutes, 26 seconds
shoulder to shoulder and we all have our different  duties and responsibilities within the line but   but none of us is more important or less  important and i think from my perspective  
41:36
41 minutes, 36 seconds
certainly my perspective only my perspective you  know i uh i do think people in the government   there are some really really good positive  pockets pockets that want to do the right thing  
41:46
41 minutes, 46 seconds
they really really agree that we need to have  an open dialogue and that government needs to  
41:52
41 minutes, 52 seconds
do its job in this topic and so uh i will i will  say this a lot has happened in the last three and  
41:58
41 minutes, 58 seconds
a half years it has been a seismic change every  time i go to dc uh i i'm always blown i'm always  
42:04
42 minutes, 4 seconds
a little paranoid wondering you know this i'm  gonna wrap me up and throw me in the back of a van  
42:11
42 minutes, 11 seconds
but i'm always surprised just how much people come  up to me and say lou we've been able to have uh  
42:18
42 minutes, 18 seconds
this discussion we've been able to we don't have  to whisper anymore in the pentagon about ufos we   can talk about it openly in the halls and and  and it's like yeah no kidding yeah it's like  
42:27
42 minutes, 27 seconds
totally normal now and we have briefings and we  have these dedicated spaces uh virtual spaces  
42:34
42 minutes, 34 seconds
for analysts to collaborate and talk about and  analyze video and pictures and and reporting   and there's collection requirements so so the  mechanism is beginning to to it's being built  
42:45
42 minutes, 45 seconds
and and is starting to run and i think  i think for me that's very encouraging  
42:50
42 minutes, 50 seconds
yeah and i i said i had one more now i have my  actual last question sure let's see how gemini is
43:02
43 minutes, 2 seconds
okay do you ever wonder because we had so like  the disinformation campaign you know during the  
43:09
43 minutes, 9 seconds
early 60s do you ever wonder at home or  anywhere by yourself if you are upon in  
43:17
43 minutes, 17 seconds
something current i'm sorry christy  one more time i apologize i was   i was being told about a time check i apologize  okay i'm like do you ever think that currently  
43:28
43 minutes, 28 seconds
that you might be in a disinformation campaign  like you're a pawn in it do you act every day   sure every day yeah i got to make sure i'm getting  fired how do you fact check that you're not well  
43:39
43 minutes, 39 seconds
it's not as simple as just saying it it's a fact  check you're always fact checking you're always   looking over the data you're always looking at  people and their intentions and and and why is  
43:48
43 minutes, 48 seconds
this person coming to you right um i've been  in the government long enough to to recognize   when there's there's there's an information  operatical i o information operation occurring  
43:59
43 minutes, 59 seconds
um you know this is not the case you don't  if you're doing an information operation  
44:06
44 minutes, 6 seconds
uh if it's legal then you everybody in the  congress is going to know uh because you have   to report that the same when you're your leader so  the director of national intelligence director cia  
44:15
44 minutes, 15 seconds
the secretary of defense members of the senate  house are not gonna you're not they can't be   fooled it's illegal now if you're running a rogue  operation disinformation operation sure that can  
44:25
44 minutes, 25 seconds
happen with you and you're not supposed to but you  can lie to congress and and your your leadership   but you're gonna go to jail because you can't  do that forever the truth will come out you you  
44:35
44 minutes, 35 seconds
will be not only fired you will go to jail and  it's criminal and and i'll be the first one to   if i were to ever find that kind of malfeasance  i will get to the top of the highest hill and i  
44:44
44 minutes, 44 seconds
scream it from the you know the top of my lungs  um no i don't i don't think i think there has  
44:49
44 minutes, 49 seconds
been some disinformation in the past but i also  think that the ufo community is its worst enemy  
44:56
44 minutes, 56 seconds
they find a conspiracy behind every rock and  um that's not helpful it's really not we need  
45:03
45 minutes, 3 seconds
a fair rational-minded conversation about this  topic and the last thing somebody who's first   coming into this community for the very  first time and they walk in and they see  
45:12
45 minutes, 12 seconds
the absolute landmine of agendas and and um  you know interpretations and narratives and  
45:21
45 minutes, 21 seconds
emotions you know um i don't think that's helpful  we have all these little different encampments of   you know are you this kind of person do you  follow that person you follow this person  
45:31
45 minutes, 31 seconds
we shouldn't be really following anybody we should  be following all of us together you know we are a  
45:36
45 minutes, 36 seconds
community and and i think i think therein lies the  strength and therein lies our success and victory  
45:44
45 minutes, 44 seconds
ultimately um you know i've had people come and  say yeah i wanted to learn more but i didn't know   where to start all of a sudden next thing i know  i got you know people trying to charge me x amount  
45:53
45 minutes, 53 seconds
of dollars to you know go on a camping trip and  see a bunch of lights in the sky yeah you know i'm  
45:59
45 minutes, 59 seconds
like well you know is that good or bad lou should  i do it i said well you know it's your harder   money you know you do whatever you want with it  you know i'm not going to tell you yes or no um  
46:11
46 minutes, 11 seconds
my other concerns that people are trying to  control the narrative and own the narrative   and then profit from the narrative you know  i can't tell many people come to me and  
46:18
46 minutes, 18 seconds
you know um will say well this person charged  me this much this person charged me that much   um you know i've even been accused of it i'm like  look i don't even charge i don't know what you're  
46:26
46 minutes, 26 seconds
talking about i've never charged anybody for  a penny for anything you know if other people   have that's on them but but not me um you know  even with the with the discovery channel thing  
46:36
46 minutes, 36 seconds
after two years of filming um seven months  non-stop each each season i made enough money to  
46:43
46 minutes, 43 seconds
buy a fancy lawnmower total that's it people think  oh he made a great big amount of money and no i   didn't actually i lost one i lived in a trailer  i mean you talked to mj bananas he'll tell you  
46:53
46 minutes, 53 seconds
i was digging my own septic tank i gave  up everything in the government my 401k   everything and lived in a trailer for two years  with my two german shepherds and digging my own  
47:03
47 minutes, 3 seconds
septic tank you know to to do this i didn't make  money i lost money but i also believe in it and  
47:11
47 minutes, 11 seconds
and i do it because i think it's it's the right  thing to do i think you know that old cia saying   in the truth for the truth shall set you free i  i do believe in that i think the truth ultimately  
47:21
47 minutes, 21 seconds
is something that is owed to everybody and uh  you know shouldn't be controlled by anybody  
47:27
47 minutes, 27 seconds
i 100 agree lou thank you so much and that's our  time and i just chris she's so thoughtful really  
47:34
47 minutes, 34 seconds
really really i really thoroughly enjoyed this  conversation if i didn't have to jump out of this   man i'd stay here for another couple hours what a  great conversation man i'll tell you the debrief  
47:45
47 minutes, 45 seconds
is really lucky to have you oh thanks you know  like it's been i i honestly appreciate that a lot  
47:51
47 minutes, 51 seconds
you know like i love working with the guys i'm  mainly doing the pr but i've been slowly like   building the show with them while doing like got  like 50 other things oh you guys are great you  
48:00
48 minutes
and chris here are just are phenomenal i you  know i wish i kind of wish we had you back in  
48:05
48 minutes, 5 seconds
the early days back in you know back when i first  came out uh out of the department um i would love   your energy and your enthusiasm and and your your  really your your questions are always super super  
48:16
48 minutes, 16 seconds
insightful and and and very relevant and deep  so thank you so much thank you i appreciate that  
48:22
48 minutes, 22 seconds
and i have to i always end with saying thank  you for being rebelliously curious with me  
48:27
48 minutes, 27 seconds
you got it thank you for having me until  until our next discussion [Music] you