1:08
1 minute, 8 seconds
joins me to discuss his thoughts around  the UAP topic going political along with   his work on finding physical evidence of  an area in the brain where an individual's  
1:19
1 minute, 19 seconds
intuitive capabilities could potentially be  located join us as we get rebelliously curious  
1:27
1 minute, 27 seconds
Gary thank you so much for joining me on  rebelliously Curious today it is an honor  
1:32
1 minute, 32 seconds
to speak with you it's great to to be here and to  talk to your listeners yes for sure uh I want to  
1:39
1 minute, 39 seconds
start off just a little bit about your childhood  you know we're not going to go totally in depth   with it but we'll talk a little bit about it  I know that you from what I've read and what  
1:49
1 minute, 49 seconds
I've seen you've had three different experiences  in your life around the phenomenon starting at a  
1:54
1 minute, 54 seconds
really really early age can you just shed some  light on those if people don't know what those  
1:59
1 minute, 59 seconds
experiences were and then you know how it brought  you into researching the phenomenon to to today  
Chapter 3: Childhood experiences
2:06
2 minutes, 6 seconds
while it was at a house that my parents had  first uh bought when after we moved here  
2:12
2 minutes, 12 seconds
to the States you can remember 35 Craigs  Road Windsor Connecticut you can look it   up I looked it up actually a few weeks  ago and on Google and it's still there  
2:22
2 minutes, 22 seconds
um and it was basically little guys in the bedroom  and I remember calling out to my brother uh and  
2:31
2 minutes, 31 seconds
saying you know is that you and then I didn't  understand how it could be like two or three of   him uh and then faces in the window and things  like that and I mean other than just memories  
2:42
2 minutes, 42 seconds
of them being in the room and and being a  little scared uh and then I guess falling  
2:48
2 minutes, 48 seconds
asleep uh there really was really was nothing  uh at that time it was interesting it wasn't  
2:54
2 minutes, 54 seconds
until actually almost 30 years later that I found  out from my brother that he had also seen things  
3:02
3 minutes, 2 seconds
um and so uh that was um quite a synchronous  or synchronicity eventually 30 years apart  
3:11
3 minutes, 11 seconds
um and then at our second house uh in on Sheffield  Drive yeah Sheffield Drive also in Windsor I would  
3:20
3 minutes, 20 seconds
I was a paper boy and going between one house and  another early in the morning uh I saw something  
3:28
3 minutes, 28 seconds
over my head I mean it wasn't just like Far Over  My Head it was like 30 40 feet just at the top   of the trees and it was I I can't say that it  was exactly saucer shaped because I all I saw  
3:38
3 minutes, 38 seconds
really were the lights and kind of a vague outline  against the sky because the lights were so bright  
3:44
3 minutes, 44 seconds
um and but it was I didn't know what it was  I mean I saw it go over um it was silent uh  
3:52
3 minutes, 52 seconds
you know I mean at best it could have been  a balloon um but I don't know any balloons  
3:57
3 minutes, 57 seconds
that are traveling at tree height uh you know um  with lights underneath them uh and uh and then I  
4:06
4 minutes, 6 seconds
guess many years later in uh the first house that  I bought or no sorry we were renting actually when  
4:14
4 minutes, 14 seconds
I came out as a professor at Stanford an assistant  professor something in the in the bedroom as well  
4:19
4 minutes, 19 seconds
at the bottom of the bed uh that actually was the  first time that I ever heard anything inside of my  
4:25
4 minutes, 25 seconds
head kind of like speak to me it basically  says when I saw it just said go to sleep  
4:31
4 minutes, 31 seconds
and that was it I you know I mean I  I wasn't afraid but I remember being  
4:38
4 minutes, 38 seconds
Frozen um and uh and and really you know that was  it in terms of encounters and there was something  
4:46
4 minutes, 46 seconds
in London many years later it must have been  about maybe only like five to ten years ago  
4:52
4 minutes, 52 seconds
um but that's a that that was a different  incident altogether I don't want to bore your your  
4:57
4 minutes, 57 seconds
listeners no I'm like I would love to know I don't  think that's boring at all I think it's actually  
5:04
5 minutes, 4 seconds
fascinating has anything like did you have any  contact I know that you said you saw them but they  
5:10
5 minutes, 10 seconds
did anything ever touch you I don't know I mean I  mean if there was I don't remember it uh and you  
Chapter 4: Early interest and discovery
5:16
5 minutes, 16 seconds
know it wasn't until actually I was a graduate  student um here at Stanford I was in a used  
5:22
5 minutes, 22 seconds
bookstore and uh one second I'm sorry I gotta turn  that uh I was in a used bookstore uh and buying  
5:33
5 minutes, 33 seconds
um science fiction books and I came across a book  uh it was two of them I came across one was by  
5:39
5 minutes, 39 seconds
John Mack and the other was by Whitney Schreiber  and I remember just seeing the cover and realizing  
5:47
5 minutes, 47 seconds
that was the face that I had seen when I was a  kid looking through the window or in the bedroom  
5:55
5 minutes, 55 seconds
um you know and the thing about the window was  it was like six feet off the six or seven feet  
6:01
6 minutes, 1 second
off the ground so it wasn't like some short  person so whatever it was was kind of like if  
6:08
6 minutes, 8 seconds
it was what it was about there's something very  tall or hovering um and it was uh I remember just  
6:16
6 minutes, 16 seconds
all the skin on my body like all the hair stood on  end when I saw it and I dropped the book because  
6:23
6 minutes, 23 seconds
it was like how does this guy know what I saw and  I knew nothing about the whole UFO Arena I mean I  
6:32
6 minutes, 32 seconds
read science fiction but I'd never read about you  know alien abductions or any of that kind of stuff  
6:39
6 minutes, 39 seconds
right and then we fast forward later on in your  life and you're working at Stanford and you start  
6:45
6 minutes, 45 seconds
researching and working with other people around  the phenomenon you know I'd like to get into the   work that you've done on the brain because  I I think it's it is amazing it's just so  
6:55
6 minutes, 55 seconds
fascinating I again am not a scientist or any  form I've worked in any medicine so I probably  
7:00
7 minutes
will butcher these words but uh the cotti potato  I believe in and the basal ganglia so those are  
7:06
7 minutes, 6 seconds
two areas that you were researching within the  core of the brain and we found out later on that  
7:14
7 minutes, 14 seconds
there was experiencers and I love first you know  what let's just do this first can you explain   what those two areas of the brain are so people  have an idea of what they are and then how it  
7:23
7 minutes, 23 seconds
ended up you know connecting to the phenomena  and the research you did there and then we'll   get into uh some other questions after that yeah  so actually the you the basal ganglia there you  
Chapter 5: The brain's role in intuition
7:32
7 minutes, 32 seconds
have two of them one on each side of the brain  um and they're pretty complex uh they're almost  
7:38
7 minutes, 38 seconds
like their own self-contained unit inside of the  brain um the caudipotainment is actually within  
7:43
7 minutes, 43 seconds
the basal ganglia it's part of the basal ganglia  now the word basal means the basement the center  
7:50
7 minutes, 50 seconds
ganglia are like neurons and things and there's  multiple uh um neuronal complexes within there  
8:00
8 minutes
um then there's the cutting in between now the  whole uh basal ganglia coated pitamin complex  
8:07
8 minutes, 7 seconds
uh for almost 20 30 years he uh was thought to  be only involved in motor control without damage  
8:17
8 minutes, 17 seconds
to that area the brain had showed uh that  it was involved in motor control and then  
8:23
8 minutes, 23 seconds
as uh you know the questions got more um let's say  implicit you know so motor control output or input  
8:33
8 minutes, 33 seconds
and so people found out that it was both  output and input input means sensor right  
8:39
8 minutes, 39 seconds
that the the sensory network of how and where  you're going to move your arms or your legs   depends upon knowing what you expect your  arms or legs will meet when they move there  
8:50
8 minutes, 50 seconds
right so uh you know when I go to grab something  that isn't just motor control to grab this cup  
8:57
8 minutes, 57 seconds
it is the knowledge that my hands when they  reach and touch it have achieved the goal   and I do it now to do that though there's all  kinds of planning steps that need to be done  
9:08
9 minutes, 8 seconds
to move each of the articulations of my arm and  muscles all subconsciously to what I'm going to  
9:16
9 minutes, 16 seconds
be doing and I often use the the example of your  at a party you're walking across a room towards  
9:23
9 minutes, 23 seconds
the bar you're avoiding this person because  you don't like them you're trying to get to  
9:28
9 minutes, 28 seconds
that person maybe because you like him or her  the waiter is about to drop something so you're  
9:35
9 minutes, 35 seconds
you're unconsciously stepping aside all of those  things are actually planned in the basal ganglia  
9:42
9 minutes, 42 seconds
they are the total sensory input of your emotions  your needs emotions are like I don't like that  
9:48
9 minutes, 48 seconds
person I like that person so all inside of your  brain subconsciously the planning is going on  
9:55
9 minutes, 55 seconds
as to where and how you're going to move and  so it was understood over the years that this  
10:03
10 minutes, 3 seconds
area was involved not just in motor control but  in all the sub goal planning steps Downstream  
10:12
10 minutes, 12 seconds
of your desires your executive function in your  what you think of is in your head as who you are  
10:20
10 minutes, 20 seconds
um but it's all going on unconsciously  but it turns out fascinatingly that this  
10:25
10 minutes, 25 seconds
area of the brain is also where um intuition  happens now think of it this way in evolution  
10:35
10 minutes, 35 seconds
are your motor control and desires uh have to be  literally Split Second it can be the difference  
10:42
10 minutes, 42 seconds
between being eaten by the jaguar or not uh and  being eaten by the Jaguar is you didn't move fast  
10:50
10 minutes, 50 seconds
enough you didn't Intuit something you didn't hear  something or know something subconsciously that  
10:57
10 minutes, 57 seconds
um this rustling might mean something I better  prepare for something so it's interesting that  
11:04
11 minutes, 4 seconds
from an evolutionary standpoint those expectation  management steps are merely perfectly aligned with  
11:12
11 minutes, 12 seconds
what you would think of as anticipation or even  a form of paranormal anticipation prescience  
11:20
11 minutes, 20 seconds
the knowledge that something is about to  happen and preparing the body to deal with  
11:26
11 minutes, 26 seconds
it before it happens uh you know this would it  would be the perfect place for it to be right  
Chapter 6: Brain studies on intelligence
11:33
11 minutes, 33 seconds
some Studies have been done these are now like  regular fmri functional MRI which basically  
11:39
11 minutes, 39 seconds
read the areas of the brain that light up when  the when the brain is active it's using sugar  
11:46
11 minutes, 46 seconds
um and you can read that with certain kinds of  chemicals injected uh so they were um is a form  
11:55
11 minutes, 55 seconds
of Japanese chess and um it's sort of a simpler  form of Chess but it's still quite difficult  
12:03
12 minutes, 3 seconds
and uh so they had experts training on this  and basically what they the the sum of what  
12:09
12 minutes, 9 seconds
they noticed was that when the individual  makes an unexpectedly brilliant move the  
12:17
12 minutes, 17 seconds
kind of move that you wouldn't isn't  just sort of like a tic-tac-toe obvious   that area of the brain the caudi  pertainment lights up the Cutie lights up  
12:29
12 minutes, 29 seconds
um and so there's numerous studies since then  that have including some from uh the work that  
12:36
12 minutes, 36 seconds
I've been doing with a group at Harvard that  basically draw your attention to the caudate   and containment as being uh the place where  intuition and complex decisions are made  
12:46
12 minutes, 46 seconds
uh in fact it it's actually called this whole  area that is called the brain within the brain  
12:52
12 minutes, 52 seconds
uh it's the place that does the pro a lot of the  of what we think of as higher order processing  
12:58
12 minutes, 58 seconds
and that little teeny nub probably half the  size of a fist on each side of your brain  
13:05
13 minutes, 5 seconds
um so uh that area of the brain is what we  had noticed in the studies that I had done  
13:14
13 minutes, 14 seconds
with the brain scans uh on the the  military and intelligence personnel  
Chapter 7: Studying UAP experiencers
13:21
13 minutes, 21 seconds
um you know they had I've been brought a number  of individuals and case studies uh for people  
13:28
13 minutes, 28 seconds
who had encountered things um and it ended up  being everything from Havana syndrome to actual  
13:35
13 minutes, 35 seconds
UFOs The Havana syndrome are less interesting  because they're sort of real world problems  
13:41
13 minutes, 41 seconds
um and uh but it was sort of a it was one  of those examples of the of of the beauty  
13:49
13 minutes, 49 seconds
of collecting raw data uh and looking for  something interesting so because we had just  
13:57
13 minutes, 57 seconds
been collecting this data we found this area  of the brain that it doesn't mean that this   area of the brain was involved in UFOs it meant  that this area of the brain and the commonality  
14:06
14 minutes, 6 seconds
of what we saw this increased neural density  across these individuals was actually correlated  
14:14
14 minutes, 14 seconds
to higher function in these individuals so if  you if you had a common intellectual feature  
14:21
14 minutes, 21 seconds
across all these individuals they were either  savants highly trained CEOs of companies Etc um  
14:30
14 minutes, 30 seconds
which basically kind of made sense that this area  of the brain intuition you know the ability to  
14:35
14 minutes, 35 seconds
manage expectations to see expectations um was  uh was over developed at one level no surprise  
14:45
14 minutes, 45 seconds
the big surprise came when we looked in the  families we were looking for controls we  
14:51
14 minutes, 51 seconds
call them controls you basically say is there  something about the environment or or you know  
14:56
14 minutes, 56 seconds
an upbringing and you would expect that let's say  uh the wife or the husband of the individual the  
15:03
15 minutes, 3 seconds
the index cases we would call them uh would not  have it because they didn't grow up in the same  
15:10
15 minutes, 10 seconds
situation whereas what we found was in of the two  couples where we happened to have both the MRIs  
15:19
15 minutes, 19 seconds
both of those individuals had the feature now  we had looked in probably about a hundred or so  
15:28
15 minutes, 28 seconds
normal individuals out of MRI databases that  are all uh cleaned of names and and you know  
15:36
15 minutes, 36 seconds
um identifying information and our best estimate  is that this feature is in about one in a hundred  
15:43
15 minutes, 43 seconds
or one in 200 individuals wow so the fact that  out of a group of 20 individuals two of those  
15:52
15 minutes, 52 seconds
individuals had husbands or wives who also had it  was remarkable because the numbers don't compute  
16:02
16 minutes, 2 seconds
right it's it's basically the the ability  of two people to come together is you know  
16:09
16 minutes, 9 seconds
one in let's say 100 times 100 which is ten  thousand right and then the ability of those  
16:15
16 minutes, 15 seconds
of two groups of those to come together is ten  thousand times ten thousand right it's it's it's
16:23
16 minutes, 23 seconds
low is the is the chance and then we  looked in a couple of them where we  
16:28
16 minutes, 28 seconds
had families and the children had it so I  mean you know as a i my PhD is in genetics  
16:37
16 minutes, 37 seconds
uh and doesn't need to be a geneticist to  realize oh this is running in families uh  
16:44
16 minutes, 44 seconds
and uh it's kind of like if you had uh you  know blonde children uh and you were both  
16:52
16 minutes, 52 seconds
brunettes or black haired you might think there's  something genetic going on here um so what excited  
Chapter 8: Genetic links to experiences
17:02
17 minutes, 2 seconds
me about that was okay well if you have two  individuals who together are finding each other  
17:09
17 minutes, 9 seconds
and they both have it are they being drawn to each  other are they seeking out others of high function  
17:17
17 minutes, 17 seconds
that kind of makes sense I mean you kind of  you know people tend to like to marry into  
17:23
17 minutes, 23 seconds
their intellectual equals uh and um so that makes  sense but what I found fascinating about that and  
17:33
17 minutes, 33 seconds
people are going to claim I'm a eugenicist and all  kinds of stuff but I'm going to say it anyway uh  
17:38
17 minutes, 38 seconds
is that it it implies that you are starting to  see a um a kind of the the beginnings of a of  
17:48
17 minutes, 48 seconds
a breeding group separation of one group that  will breed only with itself which over time you  
17:58
17 minutes, 58 seconds
know if if there is no intermixing across those  groups which of course in society there still is  
18:05
18 minutes, 5 seconds
um you're going to get uh further and further  separation until basically you know a hundred  
18:11
18 minutes, 11 seconds
thousand years from now if it kept going  uh you'd basically have two different races   you know I'm I'm just you know people are going  to say all kinds of horrible things about me I'm  
18:21
18 minutes, 21 seconds
not a eugenicist no I think you're looking at  and I was you're actually bridging beautifully  
18:27
18 minutes, 27 seconds
into a question that I was going to ask you  about neurodiversity because neurodiversity   kind of plays in the same elements here right we  see that as we grow we look at people that have  
18:38
18 minutes, 38 seconds
neurodivergent brains and neurotypical brains  right so majority of the time it's funny enough  
18:45
18 minutes, 45 seconds
I surround myself with a lot of people that are  probably neuro that I know are neurodivergent now   or found out they have ADHD or they're dyslexic  I don't know if I'm technically narrative origin  
18:55
18 minutes, 55 seconds
or a neurotypical brain I think I do a mix of  certain things but when I'm analyzing myself   but I surround myself with a lot of people that  are neurodivergent so there has to be something  
19:04
19 minutes, 4 seconds
to that have you looked at neurodiversity in  relation to the phenomenon in the in everything  
19:10
19 minutes, 10 seconds
that you're doing collecting data around the  cardio pertainment and the basal ganglia and   looking at intuition because it sounds very  similar similar to the concept neurodiversity  
Chapter 9: Neurodiversity and intuition
19:19
19 minutes, 19 seconds
and what you were saying about people grouping  we noticed that people group together and that's   what I'm saying about myself before we notice that  people group around their neurodiversity because  
19:28
19 minutes, 28 seconds
they feel comfortable and they can communicate  and they're understood by their peers because   they think very similarly right it doesn't mean  that happens all the time but there is um you  
19:37
19 minutes, 37 seconds
know we're seeing that we're also seeing it in  the workplace now too we're being neurodivergent   is actually being more way more accepted than it  would be before and understood and also welcome  
19:47
19 minutes, 47 seconds
that we need more neurodiversity in it so I do  think that there's something there and it's not   saying that you know Eugenics or anything like  that it's just an observation but have you looked  
19:57
19 minutes, 57 seconds
at neurodiversity in relation to the work that  you're doing and then attached to the phenomenon  
20:02
20 minutes, 2 seconds
so we're doing essentially what you're asking the  reverse way is why we're establishing a database  
20:11
20 minutes, 11 seconds
of what is normal all right uh and so what you  do with that is you know before you can look at  
20:19
20 minutes, 19 seconds
divergent uh or abnormal you have to know what  normal is because that's the comparative group  
20:26
20 minutes, 26 seconds
against which you're you know comparing the  so-called Divergence um so what we did with  
20:33
20 minutes, 33 seconds
this group at Harvard was we set up a study  uh a retrospective study uh looking backwards  
20:42
20 minutes, 42 seconds
it's called It's thinking looking backwards rather  than collecting the data ahead of time by choosing  
20:48
20 minutes, 48 seconds
who you want to look at we basically went to two  databases a German database and a British database  
20:54
20 minutes, 54 seconds
of uh everything from people with schizophrenia to  normals age matched and sex matched and autistics  
21:05
21 minutes, 5 seconds
uh and so and they had also scores associated with  them intelligence scores emotional scores Etc and  
21:13
21 minutes, 13 seconds
so uh the the reason for doing this is that we had  the normal groups and then we had two groups then  
21:20
21 minutes, 20 seconds
of individuals who you know before you come become  clinically a problem in autism or schizophrenia  
21:27
21 minutes, 27 seconds
uh there are let's say neurodivergences that on  the schizophrenic side are usually thought of as  
21:34
21 minutes, 34 seconds
creatives uh and on the autistic side are usually  thought of extraordinary Focus or abilities in  
21:41
21 minutes, 41 seconds
certain Arenas of the mind everything from you  know playing music to math and other things and  
21:50
21 minutes, 50 seconds
usually the autism comes with a deficit in Social  uh issues social interaction and the schizophrenia  
21:56
21 minutes, 56 seconds
comes with a deficit of will of understanding  the difference between reality and fantasy  
22:04
22 minutes, 4 seconds
uh and so I mean those are very Broad and I'm  not a psychiatrist but you know I think everybody   would would appreciate the the comparison I'm  making there and so um we've now published  
Chapter 10: Brain networks and function
22:15
22 minutes, 15 seconds
two papers on this peer-reviewed uh and the  the primary the principal thing was to show  
22:23
22 minutes, 23 seconds
which areas of the brain were most associated  with either intelligence or one or the other  
22:30
22 minutes, 30 seconds
of the features schizophrenia and autism and uh  as it turns out the caudate and the pertainment  
22:37
22 minutes, 37 seconds
especially for intelligence were at the top of the  list in all of the studies that we've done so far  
22:44
22 minutes, 44 seconds
so that comported not only with our initial  findings uh but also with now that we've dug  
22:52
22 minutes, 52 seconds
into the literature many other Laboratories have  found essentially the same thing that the caudi   petabian is is Central but we were interested  in something a little bit bigger than that  
23:03
23 minutes, 3 seconds
and and that's the the network of the brain I mean  the cartoon don't act by themselves you know if  
23:10
23 minutes, 10 seconds
you have a super processor in the middle of your  brain if it doesn't have the right wiring to get   to the other parts of the brain then you it's  just sitting and churning noise and not doing  
23:21
23 minutes, 21 seconds
anything so it has to have a receiver or or a  deliverer on the other side that is capable of  
23:28
23 minutes, 28 seconds
either delivering the information or accepting the  information that's processed and of course then  
23:33
23 minutes, 33 seconds
the wiring between has to be capable so um you can  think of that then essentially as a network and so  
23:41
23 minutes, 41 seconds
by collecting this information from you know now  hundreds of individuals we can build a network  
23:47
23 minutes, 47 seconds
model of which area the brains compensate for one  thing or another and so again what you're looking  
23:53
23 minutes, 53 seconds
at is sort of a giant sculpture which is you  know in evolutionary terms changing and malleable  
24:01
24 minutes, 1 second
uh and each of those features if two individuals  come together and marry and have children you know  
24:09
24 minutes, 9 seconds
through genetic recombination traditional standard  genetic recombination of of making eggs and sperm  
24:15
24 minutes, 15 seconds
uh then they come together and they mix and match  and then hopefully a new Fantastic match will come  
24:23
24 minutes, 23 seconds
together that is a a best of both parents that's  just how Evolution Works uh so you know we're  
24:30
24 minutes, 30 seconds
seeing everything that we would have expected uh  in terms of the kinds of areas uh but now we're  
24:38
24 minutes, 38 seconds
getting the details because so much was kind of  fuzzy but now we're getting the details and so the  
24:43
24 minutes, 43 seconds
reason why I gave that you know side discussion on  it is because now that we have that data now I can  
24:52
24 minutes, 52 seconds
go and do the questions that you're asking now I  can say is there you know give me an experiencer  
25:00
25 minutes
and I can say well is the experience or  more likely or closer to the schizophrenic  
25:05
25 minutes, 5 seconds
or the Autistic or what have you uh where on the  Spectrum do they lay on the Spectrum do they exist  
25:13
25 minutes, 13 seconds
give them a score and I've even told  the two postdocs who did the work I   said look you know you should you should  do an online you should set up an online  
25:24
25 minutes, 24 seconds
um uh system where people could upload their  MRIS completely free of uh names and all the rest  
25:33
25 minutes, 33 seconds
anonymously and ask what their score is you know  and you could charge some modest Fiat you know  
25:39
25 minutes, 39 seconds
it's it's it's you're not prescribing anything  to them but it's in some ways no different than  
25:45
25 minutes, 45 seconds
an online test you might take for intelligence  but now it's giving you sort of a real world  
25:49
25 minutes, 49 seconds
capability but then you know going deeper is with  now what it would be called a prospective study or  
25:57
25 minutes, 57 seconds
a larger study we can actually use it in a purely  clinical sense to help people with schizophrenia  
26:02
26 minutes, 2 seconds
or with autism to give them sort to begin to  break down the various types of these maladies or  
26:12
26 minutes, 12 seconds
capabilities you know because I want to think  in some ways that that people on the Spectrum   in other direction actually have a capability  there's not just a deficit uh and so I think  
26:22
26 minutes, 22 seconds
that that is I mean so there's that that  one side result that we got out of just  
26:32
26 minutes, 32 seconds
openly looking at the data from people who'd  been damaged came to an extraordinary set of
26:43
26 minutes, 43 seconds
opportunities right that if I had listened to  99 of the scientists out there who would have  
26:51
26 minutes, 51 seconds
said no don't even touch this stuff it's  poison it's a mess there's nothing here no  
Chapter 11: The nature of anomalous data
26:58
26 minutes, 58 seconds
by looking at something like this and seeing  the anomaly paying attention to the anomaly  
27:04
27 minutes, 4 seconds
not being crazy about it and then doing the  science look at what happens one of the ways  
27:10
27 minutes, 10 seconds
to think about it as uh if you're it if you  needed to put anomalous information anywhere  
27:19
27 minutes, 19 seconds
it's going to Overlay onto the normal sensory  systems right there are people for instance who  
27:27
27 minutes, 27 seconds
claim certain abilities and they see them or  they feel the emotion or they hear something  
27:34
27 minutes, 34 seconds
uh and that probably relates to whether  that person is a more visual or feeling  
27:42
27 minutes, 42 seconds
or hearing type of individual I mean you  and I were just talking earlier about  
27:49
27 minutes, 49 seconds
we see shapes so when I get ideas sometimes  they feel like you know other people call them  
27:56
27 minutes, 56 seconds
downloads when I get ideas they come to my head  both in terms of flashes of insight and shapes  
28:05
28 minutes, 5 seconds
and fully laid out scientific plans is the  best way to put it I mean um and or when I I  
28:14
28 minutes, 14 seconds
get a sense of something I should or shouldn't do  that's you know if I do this I'm going to get hurt  
28:22
28 minutes, 22 seconds
uh it comes as a flash or I'm driving down the  highway and I think oh I have to call my husband  
28:31
28 minutes, 31 seconds
10 seconds later he calls and so what are those  things but when I get that it's the the sense  
28:40
28 minutes, 40 seconds
of the getting of that information is different  than the sense of when you're planning something  
28:48
28 minutes, 48 seconds
right when you're thinking out a process as  opposed to you're not expecting it boom it  
28:53
28 minutes, 53 seconds
comes into your mind out of the blue uh and it  I I call it I it seems to have for me a color  
29:01
29 minutes, 1 second
there's like a there's a there's a sense that  there's a different kind of information than   the normal information that I'm collecting  right then I'm watching you I mean I see you  
29:10
29 minutes, 10 seconds
but then I might get a Flash and it's like  it's different and so what I've tried to do  
29:17
29 minutes, 17 seconds
I can't say that I'm good at it I've tried  to train myself to recognize those moments  
29:23
29 minutes, 23 seconds
because those moments are some kind of uh whether  they're coming from a paranormal sense or whether  
29:30
29 minutes, 30 seconds
they're coming from just some form of natural  intuition they're coming from that place and  
29:40
29 minutes, 40 seconds
I've learned to pay attention to them whether  they're weird or woo or whether they're just real  
29:48
29 minutes, 48 seconds
you know information that I'm in the environment  that I'm not seeing uh it doesn't matter  
29:55
29 minutes, 55 seconds
you recognize that it came from a different  place in your brain and and so that I think  
30:02
30 minutes, 2 seconds
is is important I was reading a book um I wish I  had my Kindle here uh by a woman who writes about  
30:09
30 minutes, 9 seconds
this very thing and she talks about exactly this  that the two parts of the brain one which collects  
30:16
30 minutes, 16 seconds
normal information versus anomalous information  actually the brain cannot coexist in both at the  
30:22
30 minutes, 22 seconds
same time and she relates this a lot to how  put off's remote viewing programs where the  
30:30
30 minutes, 30 seconds
signal the moment is what you pay attention to Not  Your Brains your left brains interpretation of it  
30:40
30 minutes, 40 seconds
where you overlay it with with potential meaning  which could be misinterpreted meaning right so  
30:47
30 minutes, 47 seconds
they learned that in the remote viewing program to  take the signal and not too much later about that  
30:54
30 minutes, 54 seconds
the so-called overlay the secondary meanings that  the brain uses to try to make sense of something  
Chapter 12: Future of genetic modification
31:00
31 minutes
right then what happens when we start getting  into like the architecture of the brain later   on like we get into crispring and other things  in the future are we going to start looking at  
31:10
31 minutes, 10 seconds
then potentially enlarging these areas and then  creating people literally like almost a super  
31:17
31 minutes, 17 seconds
race in its own way being able to remote View and  do these things you know I know we should focus on   probably the people that are obviously that that  need these areas repaired of their brain or you  
31:27
31 minutes, 27 seconds
know and focusing on certain things like that but  are we going to get into a really really sticky   area where we're looking at crisp crispering in  genetics in the future have you heard of anything  
31:37
31 minutes, 37 seconds
of that I mean I mean look the way that it always  works is whether I mean I'll I'll use the worst  
31:47
31 minutes, 47 seconds
possible wording of this is we always use the  people with damage and who need clinical help  
31:59
31 minutes, 59 seconds
as the path to discover what is uh what we can  ethically do to a human body right right and  
32:12
32 minutes, 12 seconds
that's where you you say okay can I try out a new  drug for cancer that I don't really know is going  
32:19
32 minutes, 19 seconds
to work I can use it in a compassionate use case  when the person has stage four and they're close  
32:28
32 minutes, 28 seconds
to an end I can try this I can use a trial drug  without a full test and so but you can back off  
32:33
32 minutes, 33 seconds
a little bit uh to people who aren't necessarily  in dire need but we that's always where the ethics  
32:40
32 minutes, 40 seconds
are trialled out to make sure that we're doing  the right thing but once you pass that Mark  
32:47
32 minutes, 47 seconds
then it starts to become easier to turn and say  okay well now I want to use this to make me better  
32:54
32 minutes, 54 seconds
right that it's it's now I'm I'm making a choice  for this interaction cosmetic therapy is an exact  
33:01
33 minutes, 1 second
example of this I mean so um so the short  answer is yes we will start doing crispr  
33:10
33 minutes, 10 seconds
but on people but only when the ethicists  have decided and religion and politics and  
33:20
33 minutes, 20 seconds
policy have decided that it is worth the risk  first for individuals who are at Great need  
33:27
33 minutes, 27 seconds
so it'll be used for something like thalassemias  or blood disorders or uh things I mean I I  
33:36
33 minutes, 36 seconds
I made the first retroviruses the the  rapid retroviral system I was involved  
33:43
33 minutes, 43 seconds
in the creation of that it's used in all  genetic therapy around the world using   retroviruses the 293 based system it was  my idea which actually came in a download  
33:53
33 minutes, 53 seconds
um wow and um and uh I made a lot of money  on that I get a check every year uh and  
34:02
34 minutes, 2 seconds
um so people are doing it but it began with  with engineering things like T cells for car  
34:11
34 minutes, 11 seconds
T therapy or other kinds of cell types uh so but  people have not done it for benefit there was the  
34:23
34 minutes, 23 seconds
Chinese individual who tried to use it on the baby  for uh giving the baby resistance to HIV I mean  
34:32
34 minutes, 32 seconds
that was that was beyond unethical right uh to  to do because you know we don't necessarily know  
34:42
34 minutes, 42 seconds
uh what the consequences of that would have been  um so it so it's it's going to come but I don't  
34:49
34 minutes, 49 seconds
think it's going to come in the next five years  but what will come in between now and then are  
34:54
34 minutes, 54 seconds
things like transcranial stimulation right or  you know musk's neural implants that he's making  
35:02
35 minutes, 2 seconds
I mean he didn't think that idea of that idea  has been in in science fiction for a long time  
35:09
35 minutes, 9 seconds
um but it it's been in science fictional for  a long time because people think it would be  
35:14
35 minutes, 14 seconds
we would be capable of doing it one day  right and and so yes I think that there  
35:21
35 minutes, 21 seconds
either would be a combination of of drugs and  or implants and or modifications that you make  
35:30
35 minutes, 30 seconds
um to an individual to enhance  their intellectual capabilities   to ask this because you have had experiences  have you ever measured or done any MRIs on  
Chapter 13: Self-analysis and familial traits
35:42
35 minutes, 42 seconds
your own brain to see if you're like have a  large Cardiff attainment or you know these okay  
35:48
35 minutes, 48 seconds
I mean it sounds like narcissism and no no I it's  it's not I don't think that's narcissistic at all   I just think it's it if you're having your own  work and you're having your own experiences why  
35:57
35 minutes, 57 seconds
wouldn't you do tests on yourself we actually did  it on the whole stud the people who were running  
36:03
36 minutes, 3 seconds
the study group as part of the controls and we  were shocked that several of us had it I then  
36:08
36 minutes, 8 seconds
checked my mother my brother and my sister they  all have it and we went we're way off the curve  
36:16
36 minutes, 16 seconds
um in many respects which is you know my husband  says well no wonder no wonder you're so weird  
36:23
36 minutes, 23 seconds
no wonder you're neurodivergent exactly  explains explains it yeah it explains a lot  
36:30
36 minutes, 30 seconds
um but I'm you know I'm I'm proud of it  I I don't know what it means but what   I'm what I'm interested in it though for is  once we can isolate a group of such people  
36:43
36 minutes, 43 seconds
um now we can start to do the genetics right  now I can compare a group and family groups uh  
36:50
36 minutes, 50 seconds
end up being extraordinarily powerful uh in  terms of you know my brother and my sister  
36:58
36 minutes, 58 seconds
might share areas of the genetics that correlate  with the changes in the brain that you don't see  
37:08
37 minutes, 8 seconds
in other individuals in the normal population but  maybe one of the other groups individuals has it  
37:15
37 minutes, 15 seconds
and and that's the the power of numbers suddenly  starts Rising where you can start to say these are  
37:23
37 minutes, 23 seconds
the nucleotides and the genes or the regulatory  regions which are all controlling uh the shape of  
37:30
37 minutes, 30 seconds
the brain in such a way that it creates a receiver  or a functionality that can make better sense of  
37:39
37 minutes, 39 seconds
this anomalous information than others and you  know I I think that there's pretty good evidence  
37:49
37 minutes, 49 seconds
um that most people have it right if not everybody  has it um but it's whether you recognize it for  
37:59
37 minutes, 59 seconds
what it is really the level of what you would  might call intelligence or awareness right that a  
38:08
38 minutes, 8 seconds
lot of people can walk into a room and and see you  know the detective thing that's out of place than  
38:20
38 minutes, 20 seconds
not I had a funny story I haven't told publicly  but I always use this with my with my friends  
38:25
38 minutes, 25 seconds
so when my husband and I were first going out he  had gone uh on vacation somewhere and um I had for  
38:34
38 minutes, 34 seconds
one reason or another had a I had a joint and he  didn't like me smoking but I occasionally did it  
38:39
38 minutes, 39 seconds
like on a Friday night and so before he came home  I realized that I had left it in the bathroom so  
38:46
38 minutes, 46 seconds
I run upstairs and I pick it up and I put it  in a little box on the bureau in the bedroom  
38:54
38 minutes, 54 seconds
so he comes home I go downstairs I grab his his uh  bag to help him take him upstairs we go upstairs  
39:02
39 minutes, 2 seconds
he walks into the room he looks around  he walks right over to that box and he   opens it up and he pulls a thing out and  he says what is this I said how the F did  
39:12
39 minutes, 12 seconds
you know that he said I don't know I just  knew there was something about that box
39:19
39 minutes, 19 seconds
right and and so I I mean we laugh about it  years later but what where did you get that  
39:29
39 minutes, 29 seconds
information it's not like it was we had  cameras in the in the bedroom or anything   so it's it's that kind of thing that basically  tells me that nearly everybody has it or in  
39:39
39 minutes, 39 seconds
retrospect I should check his brain we haven't  done it yet I was just gonna say that yeah   um so I you know it's it's it's like  do you recognize it for what it is  
Chapter 14: Recognition of intuitive moments
39:50
39 minutes, 50 seconds
you know there's that old thing uh  the the you know the the psychology  
39:56
39 minutes, 56 seconds
um uh never I don't know if it's a test or you can  you're sitting in in the classroom the professor  
40:03
40 minutes, 3 seconds
tells you to watch the people playing basketball  on stage uh watch the basketball and after you  
40:12
40 minutes, 12 seconds
watch the whole thing the professor says who saw  the man in the Apes who walked through the room  
40:19
40 minutes, 19 seconds
all right well I wasn't one of the people who  saw that I was I was convinced that it was a lie  
40:26
40 minutes, 26 seconds
but then he showed it and you know and so it  was this awareness because if you're focused  
40:32
40 minutes, 32 seconds
on one thing it just shows you how little  your brain can actually process at some level  
40:38
40 minutes, 38 seconds
um frankly that's what uh pickpockets do uh  they touch you in several different places  
40:45
40 minutes, 45 seconds
because above five or six touches and your brain  just can't handle the things so the the sixth  
40:53
40 minutes, 53 seconds
touches them sticking their hand in your pocket  and pulling out your wallet right I mean that's   confusion too confusion confusing your brain  yeah so how many things can you pay attention  
41:03
41 minutes, 3 seconds
to at once well that also the flip side of that  is how many things can you ignore while you're  
41:11
41 minutes, 11 seconds
looking for the anomaly so you would imagine it's  a great statement yeah that um that a uh you know  
41:20
41 minutes, 20 seconds
a meditator of some kind of high ability can turn  off everything except the anomalous information  
41:29
41 minutes, 29 seconds
yeah you've bridged me into I love that you  even brought up the Cannabis connection because  
41:36
41 minutes, 36 seconds
I literally my next uh question is about there is  research right now obviously there's a lot there's  
41:42
41 minutes, 42 seconds
tons more research going on about cannabis and  just psychedelics in general let's just say not   even cannabis just you know Kenneth is I would say  is I'm obviously a mild psychedelic but looking at  
41:51
41 minutes, 51 seconds
all different types of psychedelics um Dr gold  dahlin is a professor of neuroscience at John  
41:57
41 minutes, 57 seconds
Hopkins University and she's looking into using  psychedelics that are opening up other neural  
42:03
42 minutes, 3 seconds
Pathways right now and then being able to like  yeah like so when you were younger your neural   Pathways were generally and again you know not a  scientists here but from what I'm learning and and  
42:13
42 minutes, 13 seconds
watching that opening up neural Pathways where  you're able to teach yourself you know how to   play the piano because when we're kids we're  like little sponges and we soak up all that  
42:22
42 minutes, 22 seconds
information and then now as an adult you know we  really close off those Pathways for probably many   different reasons of you know for mental health  to you name it it to again just maybe just you  
42:32
42 minutes, 32 seconds
know from getting older of age but they're saying  that you know psychedelics and I don't recommend   people to do psychedelics just saying this but in  the research context they're saying that they're  
42:42
42 minutes, 42 seconds
opening up these neural Pathways would this  be something that you would look at in your   research with again even with experiencers or just  in general with the brain because there might be  
42:51
42 minutes, 51 seconds
an interesting connection there that maybe we are  able to use psychedelics to open up those neural   Pathways so we have those abilities to remote  viewer to do those things and to enlarge those  
43:01
43 minutes, 1 second
areas have you thought about bringing you know  any form of psychedelics research into your own  
43:06
43 minutes, 6 seconds
personal research and data collecting I mean yes  and no I mean the the first part is establishing  
43:15
43 minutes, 15 seconds
this database the the no part of it is not from  lack of interest it's more about lack of money  
Chapter 15: Prospects for further research
43:23
43 minutes, 23 seconds
um this is now what you would call a prospective  trial rather than a retrospective retrospective  
43:30
43 minutes, 30 seconds
is basically using data or material  somebody else has already collected  
43:35
43 minutes, 35 seconds
um a prospective trial um requires uh Ethics  Committee review of irbs institutional review  
43:43
43 minutes, 43 seconds
boards the money associated with it uh I mean  you're literally talking millions of dollars  
43:50
43 minutes, 50 seconds
um to do these kinds of studies so the the best  way that you can package those studies and that's  
43:57
43 minutes, 57 seconds
what we're doing is by aligning them with clear  clinical benefit right so there are individuals  
44:05
44 minutes, 5 seconds
who and I who I know who will function who will uh  fund these kinds of studies but you're still best  
44:16
44 minutes, 16 seconds
uh advised to try to align them with a clinical  benefit and so a clinical benefit would be  
44:22
44 minutes, 22 seconds
you know people with PTSD right who are being  used the psychedelics are being used for them  
44:27
44 minutes, 27 seconds
ketamine uh LSD psilocybin I don't know the DMT  is being used for that but maybe it is actually  
44:35
44 minutes, 35 seconds
um and so but what you would do is you would  then part of the study would be you would have a  
44:44
44 minutes, 44 seconds
series of mental ability tests some of which might  include anomalous Information Tracking I wouldn't  
44:52
44 minutes, 52 seconds
I wouldn't make it the goal of the study because  then it could be very easily shot down but if you  
44:59
44 minutes, 59 seconds
have the top 10 things being clearly you know uh  you know does it change your focus does it change  
45:06
45 minutes, 6 seconds
your ability to do math you know all of these  things that you might look for as a a benefit  
45:13
45 minutes, 13 seconds
or a detriment that you're trying to protect or  gain and then this other thing about anomalous  
45:18
45 minutes, 18 seconds
information you could come up with various kinds  of of intuition tests that aren't Wu but touch  
45:24
45 minutes, 24 seconds
enough close to it that you would basically  say that you're doing those kinds of studies  
45:31
45 minutes, 31 seconds
uh so um I I think those are the kinds of things  that need to be done first uh and again certainly  
45:39
45 minutes, 39 seconds
if somebody wants to drop 10 million dollars  on my head I'll set it up you know I have the  
45:43
45 minutes, 43 seconds
contacts to do it uh you know in the the clinical  side of things and people who want to do it it's  
45:50
45 minutes, 50 seconds
just it's just the money and time but you know  by creating these databases that we're making  
45:59
45 minutes, 59 seconds
um we're making the ability for anybody to do  it right I I mean the the whole point of science  
46:03
46 minutes, 3 seconds
is not to be a lone wolf but to publish the data  and then get it out there in a format that allows  
46:12
46 minutes, 12 seconds
other people to use to build their you know as  a foundation to do next steps and that's really  
46:18
46 minutes, 18 seconds
what I'm what I'm trying to do um you know what  individual Outsourcing too like what you were  
46:24
46 minutes, 24 seconds
saying getting people to submit MRIs and getting  information back and creating those you know   privatized databases which can be a little bit  scary when you get into privacy issues with like  
46:34
46 minutes, 34 seconds
big data and corporate companies collecting all of  that stuff and then where are they you know giving   it to when it comes to marketers and other things  get that gets a little scary but uh and get very  
46:45
46 minutes, 45 seconds
very political but if we're looking at it just  for a medical concept and and for it it is it's  
46:51
46 minutes, 51 seconds
so important to our own development understanding  of our brain and and who we are as people I mean   if it's if it's done with consent you know when  people sign the necessary forms and you know and  
47:02
47 minutes, 2 seconds
then the consent forms are not tricky you know  they're done right not like the stuff we sign  
47:07
47 minutes, 7 seconds
every day when we do sign up for social media we  give away more rights than we ever should I think  
47:14
47 minutes, 14 seconds
um you know I I'm I'm positive that it's going  to be done uh and I'm ready to participate if  
47:24
47 minutes, 24 seconds
people want uh but you know there's one other um  example of this there was a woman who back in 1962  
Chapter 16: Predicting research findings
47:34
47 minutes, 34 seconds
uh claimed um to have these night dreams  night visions she's a was a famous  
47:42
47 minutes, 42 seconds
um psychic or medium and in the early 1970s  she did a form of hypnotherapy where she went  
47:51
47 minutes, 51 seconds
back and remembered the dreams you know  more Moment by moment she remembered the   dreams but she was able to give more Moment by  moment of what it was and in in one of those  
48:03
48 minutes, 3 seconds
or a series of the night dream Recollections  she basically said that she had been told  
48:12
48 minutes, 12 seconds
in these dreams that the caudate and  the pertainment were the center of  
48:19
48 minutes, 19 seconds
intuition and or anomalous cognition and would  be the future of it okay now this was at a time  
48:28
48 minutes, 28 seconds
when the only thing that the basal ganglia was  thought to be involved with was motor control  
48:34
48 minutes, 34 seconds
right and I remember as little as like 2005 when I  no it wouldn't be 2000 would have been 2012 or so  
48:44
48 minutes, 44 seconds
when I was speaking with a very well-known  psychiatrist at Stanford and talking with him  
48:51
48 minutes, 51 seconds
about intuition and the basal ganglia and he was  he's been trained at Harvard he was an older guy  
48:57
48 minutes, 57 seconds
absolutely determined that the only thing that it  was involved with was that basal ganglia because   that's what he'd been taught in school so here  you had a woman literally a year after I was born  
49:08
49 minutes, 8 seconds
who had intuited a function that  we came up with 60 years later  
49:16
49 minutes, 16 seconds
50 years later right and she basically got  it right as far as I can tell I mean what we  
49:23
49 minutes, 23 seconds
had been speculating she perfectly aligned with  what we were saying wow um and so you know I I  
49:32
49 minutes, 32 seconds
it's not proof of anything yet but it's so  fascinating I can't help myself to continue  
49:40
49 minutes, 40 seconds
to go down the rabbit hole if you will and prove  or disprove it and so so far the real studies that  
49:50
49 minutes, 50 seconds
we've done have supported the original findings  right and those are peer-reviewed published  
49:57
49 minutes, 57 seconds
so I don't know many of the people out there who  are doing this right there that are really taking  
50:02
50 minutes, 2 seconds
the time to do it properly based on their  intuition right we included the center of  
50:08
50 minutes, 8 seconds
intuition and it turns out others had gotten there  before us uh but we were right it's unbelievable  
Chapter 17: Political dynamics of UAPs
50:16
50 minutes, 16 seconds
I have to move into a section though that I'm I'm  super curious to know what you think because it's  
50:23
50 minutes, 23 seconds
obviously so current with us and looking at the  political state of uaps I have a few questions  
50:30
50 minutes, 30 seconds
around this and looking at [Music] um right now we  see that we're getting into I'm thinking that UFOs  
50:38
50 minutes, 38 seconds
are starting to become more political before you  know we obviously had a bipartisan where now we've   had both sides Republican and Democrats looking at  this and you know really championing together to  
50:49
50 minutes, 49 seconds
get you know the the truth forward coming from the  US government or anybody else private into private  
50:55
50 minutes, 55 seconds
companies you name it right we want a form of I  don't really like the word disclosure but we'll   use it uh the form of disclosure do you think that  it's really political now and do you think that  
51:06
51 minutes, 6 seconds
this political movement is going to start moving  into more Republican and it's going to start  
51:12
51 minutes, 12 seconds
moving to the right wing uh of politics right  now I mean I think uh well let's look at what  
51:21
51 minutes, 21 seconds
um I think uh Chris melon and Lou Elizondo  did brilliantly which was they used the  
51:33
51 minutes, 33 seconds
scare Factor of what UFOs might represent in terms  of the national security threat uh to you know in  
51:44
51 minutes, 44 seconds
terms of like is the Russians of the Chinese uh to  basically get people to pay attention on the hill  
51:50
51 minutes, 50 seconds
uh to motivate people's attention and uh you  know that ended up largely being a bipartisan  
51:59
51 minutes, 59 seconds
thing but you know I and I haven't done it  statistically but uh most of the interactions  
52:07
52 minutes, 7 seconds
that I've had now with the um with the  government uh have been through our Republican  
52:15
52 minutes, 15 seconds
uh the Republican side I wouldn't call them  right wing I mean they're Republican uh you  
52:22
52 minutes, 22 seconds
know and I and you know for better or or Worse  we need to thank um Tucker Carlson uh you know  
52:30
52 minutes, 30 seconds
despite some of the other things that people  don't like about him and I'm not in you know I'm  
52:36
52 minutes, 36 seconds
not in favor either uh he was a gentleman to me  uh and has pushed this uh subject matter forward  
52:45
52 minutes, 45 seconds
um so you know people have said to me well why  did you even go on his show what are you doing  
52:52
52 minutes, 52 seconds
you know Etc uh Fox hates people like you um  and uh I said well you know um yeah I could  
53:03
53 minutes, 3 seconds
ignore him uh or not go uh or I could use it as  an opportunity uh to move the whole thing forward  
53:11
53 minutes, 11 seconds
um because who would you rather have me or some  loon or maybe I am alone I don't know um so uh and
53:24
53 minutes, 24 seconds
and I think the left wing if you will if we're  going to call it right and left the Democrats  
53:32
53 minutes, 32 seconds
are so afraid of their own shadow often that  they're afraid of being accused of something  
53:39
53 minutes, 39 seconds
I think the people who are more on the on the  right side of the spectrum to the extent that  
53:47
53 minutes, 47 seconds
they see either opportunity or a military um  opportunity uh they're just more clear-eyed  
53:54
53 minutes, 54 seconds
about it uh so but I think this is you know back  to your term this is neurodiversity you know I  
Chapter 18: Dangers of partisan UAPs
54:02
54 minutes, 2 seconds
think we need multiple views as long as they're  not extreme part is we're looking at you know   Robert Bigelow has invested over 50 million right  now into multiple different Republican parties and  
54:13
54 minutes, 13 seconds
Ron desantos as being one of them right you know  investing 10 million into him so the question then  
54:19
54 minutes, 19 seconds
is now do we move forward and the Republicans are  going to use this the UAP topic is part of their  
54:24
54 minutes, 24 seconds
platform in the next elections and to me that's  really scary you know isn't this supposed to be  
54:30
54 minutes, 30 seconds
a bipartisan in a topic for everybody and then if  we get it using it as a political play that can  
54:38
54 minutes, 38 seconds
be very dangerous and it doesn't mean if it's  Democratic or republican it could be anything   this topic is supposed to be for everyone it's not  supposed to be for a political party well then I  
54:47
54 minutes, 47 seconds
I think it is um incumbent then on the people who  are let's say on the other side of the spectrum to  
54:55
54 minutes, 55 seconds
see what is successful and what works I mean if if  you're a left-wing blogger or a ref left-wing UFO  
55:04
55 minutes, 4 seconds
Twitter person then don't blame the Republicans  for paying attention to something that's important  
55:10
55 minutes, 10 seconds
that you think are important blame the Democrats  and get off your ass and write the Democrats make  
55:17
55 minutes, 17 seconds
it an issue um you know it's I don't blame anybody  for taking advantage of it as long as it's not  
55:24
55 minutes, 24 seconds
being used to beat down the other group uh but um  so I don't know I I don't yet see it as a problem  
55:37
55 minutes, 37 seconds
um what I would see it as a problem is  it becomes some sort of Q Anon related  
55:42
55 minutes, 42 seconds
you know a conspiracy add-on that just turns it  into a clown act um we've seen that though we've  
55:53
55 minutes, 53 seconds
seen Trump speak to UFOs and Q and on in the  past and we View and kuanon has referenced the  
56:00
56 minutes
UFO uh community and topic and part of their own  platform so that really is the fear is when you  
56:07
56 minutes, 7 seconds
have people that are obviously you know firing  in Far alt right and looking at the right wing  
56:13
56 minutes, 13 seconds
Politics as well let's just say and are following  certain people within you know a political parties  
56:19
56 minutes, 19 seconds
maybe obviously not all different you know  politicians but some it's going to cause hate  
56:26
56 minutes, 26 seconds
and then what happens is then the UFO Community  becomes part of this alt-right discussion which  
56:32
56 minutes, 32 seconds
instantly then media well some media will decide  not to take seriously anymore and discredit the  
56:38
56 minutes, 38 seconds
community and that really is the fear that we  might see that happening if this becomes ultraly   political and you know extremist groups that  are politically adjacent attach themselves to it  
56:51
56 minutes, 51 seconds
I mean in the bigger picture uh it might be  just a you know a feedback mechanism that  
56:59
56 minutes, 59 seconds
Society you know uses to moderate uh outcomes  um I'm more positive about it that those sorts  
57:11
57 minutes, 11 seconds
of things you're talking about will happen  uh you know fear spreads faster than hope  
57:19
57 minutes, 19 seconds
um and so I I'm I can't worry about that  but the people who I do know who are sane  
57:27
57 minutes, 27 seconds
on the inside see it in a clear-eyed manner and  uh don't let those other things get in the way  
57:35
57 minutes, 35 seconds
I mean we'll see time will tell you know I'm I'm  I'm hopeful uh I you know the things that I know  
57:43
57 minutes, 43 seconds
that are going on inside could be stopped by it's  it's not the people I know that worry me it's the  
57:53
57 minutes, 53 seconds
people that I know exist that are trying to stop  this and how they are manipulating the situation  
58:04
58 minutes, 4 seconds
behind the scenes maybe they're using the Q Anon  types or all the rest are feeding them uh so you  
58:12
58 minutes, 12 seconds
know the the best thing we can hope is just keep  pushing it's at a greater level of awareness than  
58:17
58 minutes, 17 seconds
has ever been uh there are steps being taken um in  the meantime you know maybe we just don't wait for  
Chapter 19: The necessity of hard data
58:26
58 minutes, 26 seconds
the government to tell us what to do I mean I've  always said this frankly is that if you're going   to wait for Daddy to tell you that something you  know is right then you know then you're basically  
58:36
58 minutes, 36 seconds
you gave up control to Daddy or Mommy and um  so what I know I know I mean I know what I saw  
58:45
58 minutes, 45 seconds
so I don't need anybody to tell me what it is that  I saw um but that anecdote of me seeing something  
58:55
58 minutes, 55 seconds
is more than enough for me to believe it uh but  to convince a scientist it's a different language  
59:03
59 minutes, 3 seconds
of proof which is required so that um it can  be independently measured or I can create data  
59:11
59 minutes, 11 seconds
that they can look at and agree with me is proof  of something anomalous so you know we we have to  
59:18
59 minutes, 18 seconds
think about the the people that we're trying to  convince uh if you've seen something you don't   need anybody to tell you that it's real you know  you only need somebody to tell you what it is  
59:28
59 minutes, 28 seconds
what it means right and simple level you can make  basically take the assumption that we're not alone  
59:36
59 minutes, 36 seconds
right but what it means and what they're doing  what the intangent agenda Etc is I mean then you  
59:42
59 minutes, 42 seconds
can spin into all kinds of speculation that you  know basically are are unprovable right but then  
59:49
59 minutes, 49 seconds
on the other hand you know there are there's  a group of society which hasn't seen anything  
59:56
59 minutes, 56 seconds
they might like crazy uncle Gary uh but they  don't necessarily believe the stories that he  
1:00:05
1 hour, 5 seconds
tells or they don't know what it means they look  to scientists or the government who is basically  
1:00:13
1 hour, 13 seconds
looking at scientists to tell them what the  meaning is and so from my point of view the  
1:00:19
1 hour, 19 seconds
people to convince are the scientists so then the  I'm not going to convince them with another story  
1:00:30
1 hour, 30 seconds
I'm not going to convince them with another movie  I'm I I'm not going to convince them over drinks  
1:00:37
1 hour, 37 seconds
I'm going to convince them with data  so what kind of data material data   uh so I go after materials you know hard  materials that can be collected in the field with  
1:00:49
1 hour, 49 seconds
you know with evidence something that I can do the  analysis and then hand it over to somebody else
1:00:57
1 hour, 57 seconds
um or the MRI images of people who've been claimed  to interact with right which is hard data that  
1:01:05
1 hour, 1 minute, 5 seconds
somebody else can can I can handle now the other  point the bigger point that I've been making  
1:01:12
1 hour, 1 minute, 12 seconds
is it's the data you need to convince  people is real not the conclusion  
1:01:19
1 hour, 1 minute, 19 seconds
I can give you data and say Here's data  of something moving from here to here   and here to here and here you know  faster than anything we know should  
1:01:28
1 hour, 1 minute, 28 seconds
but I'm not going to claim that it's reptilians  from the Pleiades or the space brothers from  
1:01:36
1 hour, 1 minute, 36 seconds
Alpha Centauri exactly right right because  those are all obviously disprovable crap  
1:01:44
1 hour, 1 minute, 44 seconds
so how do you prove that you know  it's yeah exactly exactly yeah  
1:01:50
1 hour, 1 minute, 50 seconds
but convincing someone that the data is real puts  you in a different position you now get to be the  
1:01:59
1 hour, 1 minute, 59 seconds
person who is not being asked the question of what  it is you can now ask them what do you think it is  
1:02:07
1 hour, 2 minutes, 7 seconds
you speculate don't shoot  down everything I'm thinking   come up with something of your own and I found  that I mean that trick if you will is what  
1:02:18
1 hour, 2 minutes, 18 seconds
usually sets the scientists that I know uh back  on their heels when they're like okay well yeah  
1:02:27
1 hour, 2 minutes, 27 seconds
that's unusual and data speaks volumes status you  know status King in that and I would agree the  
Chapter 20: Whistleblowers and secrecy
1:02:35
1 hour, 2 minutes, 35 seconds
whole concept now when we'll get into and this  is kind of my last section of this is obviously   craft retrievals you know you've been analyzing  so much data with Jack valet you know over the  
1:02:45
1 hour, 2 minutes, 45 seconds
years and I've been working with him now this  the whole crash retrieval thing we're looking at  
1:02:51
1 hour, 2 minutes, 51 seconds
potentially maybe next year you know here here's  hoping and maybe you know and you can tell me it's  
1:02:58
1 hour, 2 minutes, 58 seconds
not your coming years that whistleblowers are  obviously coming forward and are going to say   that you know we're going to testify and are going  to say that they've have obviously touched it or  
1:03:07
1 hour, 3 minutes, 7 seconds
have experienced it you know where are you with  that in your data is there any other new data   that you're that you're analyzing and do you know  who these whistleblowers are and can you name some  
1:03:18
1 hour, 3 minutes, 18 seconds
to me if that if you will or not and will this  happen potentially next year I'm going to be  
1:03:25
1 hour, 3 minutes, 25 seconds
very careful because I got in trouble um for even  saying some of the things I've said uh but um so  
1:03:34
1 hour, 3 minutes, 34 seconds
first let's talk about the whistleblower law and  what it really says it doesn't say they can come  
1:03:42
1 hour, 3 minutes, 42 seconds
forward and talk on 60 Minutes right is that they  can come forward and uh tell people in Congress  
1:03:52
1 hour, 3 minutes, 52 seconds
what it is that they've seen now that doesn't  mean that Congress can then turn around and talk  
1:03:56
1 hour, 3 minutes, 56 seconds
about it publicly in fact they probably won't um  I mean Burchette and others have already seen the  
1:04:05
1 hour, 4 minutes, 5 seconds
private briefings and verchette to the extent  that he said anything has come out and said
1:04:13
1 hour, 4 minutes, 13 seconds
um this was technology it was clearly a disc  it wasn't a balloon it wasn't a seagull it  
1:04:20
1 hour, 4 minutes, 20 seconds
wasn't half a dozen other things that people  claimed not swamp gas Etc uh it wasn't a it  
1:04:26
1 hour, 4 minutes, 26 seconds
wasn't a Chinese drone you know um whatever the  latest excuses that they seem to be throwing out  
1:04:34
1 hour, 4 minutes, 34 seconds
um so I think yes it'll come forward internally  whether it sees the light of day is another  
1:04:43
1 hour, 4 minutes, 43 seconds
another point and and I mean along and the short  of it is there are people who know for sure and so  
1:04:52
1 hour, 4 minutes, 52 seconds
um I I just I just shouldn't say anymore  because I I there's conversations I'm   hearing of people Gathering whistleblowers  right now like I'm hearing that and they're  
1:05:01
1 hour, 5 minutes, 1 second
and I'm obviously not going to say specifics  in my own space because there are you know   you can have lots of hearsay of things  that you hear and obviously you need  
1:05:10
1 hour, 5 minutes, 10 seconds
evidence and proof and let those people come  forward but they're Gathering them right now   um and I don't yeah do you know what areas  these people might be coming from though if  
1:05:19
1 hour, 5 minutes, 19 seconds
it's either like if it's if it's let's say  Pilots if it's just if it's government is   it you know or is it politicians like who are  are these people have you heard in what areas  
1:05:31
1 hour, 5 minutes, 31 seconds
um of culture are they coming from what spectrum  of culture broadly speaking government okay I  
1:05:38
1 hour, 5 minutes, 38 seconds
think that's probably I I can't I can't get in  trouble for saying that but um they probably  
1:05:44
1 hour, 5 minutes, 44 seconds
still will get in trouble and get in trouble all  the time um so uh but but I mean you know I just
1:05:55
1 hour, 5 minutes, 55 seconds
[Music] um moving the ball forward internally is  not the same as moving the ball forward publicly  
1:06:04
1 hour, 6 minutes, 4 seconds
internally everybody knows  that there's something here  
1:06:09
1 hour, 6 minutes, 9 seconds
right that there's some something from somewhere  is here uh but how do we get that information  
1:06:16
1 hour, 6 minutes, 16 seconds
out publicly is a difficult thing because I  mean it's it's almost the same kind of problem  
1:06:23
1 hour, 6 minutes, 23 seconds
we know something's here but we don't know  actually what it is because all of the things  
1:06:29
1 hour, 6 minutes, 29 seconds
that you could think that it is humanoid  aliens with red eyes and all this stuff  
1:06:35
1 hour, 6 minutes, 35 seconds
it's ridiculous to think that you would have a  species that would basically look so human-like  
1:06:46
1 hour, 6 minutes, 46 seconds
at I mean there's no reason it should evolve  the same form there's just and so you have to  
1:06:56
1 hour, 6 minutes, 56 seconds
think in a more Jacques valet way that these  things are almost in a way conscious puppets  
1:07:05
1 hour, 7 minutes, 5 seconds
right created to not fool us but to interact  with us because whatever it is that actually  
1:07:15
1 hour, 7 minutes, 15 seconds
created them is not understandable to us and  so these are placeholders uh interaction icons  
1:07:25
1 hour, 7 minutes, 25 seconds
uh you know in a more advanced way uh and because  I just as an evolutionary biologist and geneticist  
1:07:36
1 hour, 7 minutes, 36 seconds
I have a hard time um connecting with this notion  that these things are humanoid in in any way  
1:07:47
1 hour, 7 minutes, 47 seconds
but even vaguely they would look  human there's I mean you know you   a rutabaga could just as easily become  intelligent on another planet as a human
1:08:01
1 hour, 8 minutes, 1 second
um that's that that's well I hope that doesn't  happen with the rutabagas it would be scary to see  
1:08:08
1 hour, 8 minutes, 8 seconds
something that was shaped like a rutabaga  you know what I mean it's it's there's just  
1:08:12
1 hour, 8 minutes, 12 seconds
nothing special about the human form that you  know Belize intelligence or uh it's just it's  
1:08:21
1 hour, 8 minutes, 21 seconds
it's so narcissistic of us as a species to think  that this shape is the only thing that could house  
1:08:26
1 hour, 8 minutes, 26 seconds
intelligence for sure um and so uh you know I  think that I think that's the problem is that  
1:08:34
1 hour, 8 minutes, 34 seconds
even if you were to find the bodies  in the refrigerator somewhere  
1:08:41
1 hour, 8 minutes, 41 seconds
I mean it's evidence that it's something but  I don't think that it's evidence that that is   what's behind the scenes and I think that's  part of what scares the people who do know  
1:08:53
1 hour, 8 minutes, 53 seconds
um that it's it's that it's that problem of  knowing something isn't real and that it's  
1:09:01
1 hour, 9 minutes, 1 second
more complex and you can't come up with a single  Consolidated story that covers the entire area  
1:09:10
1 hour, 9 minutes, 10 seconds
and therefore nobody can really say what  it is because it seems to be many things  
1:09:17
1 hour, 9 minutes, 17 seconds
and if it is many things then it's the problem  is even more complex than you could imagine  
1:09:24
1 hour, 9 minutes, 24 seconds
uh for sure you know that uh you  know let's say that there are  
1:09:31
1 hour, 9 minutes, 31 seconds
eight different groups of whatever they are and  they don't all necessarily agree with each other  
1:09:39
1 hour, 9 minutes, 39 seconds
and we're not the main show we're a sideshow  uh but somehow maybe some of them see us as a  
1:09:48
1 hour, 9 minutes, 48 seconds
resource or some of us see us as something to be  protected from others who see us as a resource  
1:09:55
1 hour, 9 minutes, 55 seconds
and so you know you could have  a little bit of that going on   you also bring up like people trying to  stop this conversation I've heard this  
Chapter 21: Internal power struggles
1:10:05
1 hour, 10 minutes, 5 seconds
from Travis Taylor you know I've heard  this from Lou Elizondo I've heard this   from multiple people right Christopher Mellon  like you know everyone is saying that there are  
1:10:16
1 hour, 10 minutes, 16 seconds
people within government that don't want this to  come forward I have to ask this question because  
1:10:23
1 hour, 10 minutes, 23 seconds
you know and it's maybe High conspiracy but you  know do you think it's the columns Elite like is  
1:10:29
1 hour, 10 minutes, 29 seconds
this is that you know that's always been played  around and I I know I'm not going to obviously   say certain people but there's people I would say  probably from you know task force that have worked  
1:10:37
1 hour, 10 minutes, 37 seconds
at atip another thing have had these conversations  yeah so do do you think it's the Collins Elite  
1:10:43
1 hour, 10 minutes, 43 seconds
that is part of this I think that the religious uh  element is part of it um you know whether it's the  
1:10:50
1 hour, 10 minutes, 50 seconds
Collins Elite or some let's say Loosely Affiliated  group uh there's a religious component to it um  
1:10:59
1 hour, 10 minutes, 59 seconds
certainly and uh people of a religious inclination  uh now whether it's because it's religion or  
1:11:09
1 hour, 11 minutes, 9 seconds
because they're more paranoid as a group not  because they're religious but just that particular  
1:11:14
1 hour, 11 minutes, 14 seconds
group is more paranoid or sees the Power  associated with understanding this stuff first  
1:11:21
1 hour, 11 minutes, 21 seconds
they see it as a way to leverage control I don't  know or if they gave that control to somebody else  
1:11:27
1 hour, 11 minutes, 27 seconds
that somebody else would then have the control I  mean the long and the short of it is whatever the  
1:11:32
1 hour, 11 minutes, 32 seconds
technology is it's certainly not being used uh in  the military at a high level so either somebody's  
1:11:42
1 hour, 11 minutes, 42 seconds
using it and trying to understand it and maybe  they've developed some understanding of it or  
1:11:47
1 hour, 11 minutes, 47 seconds
they're so afraid that if the rest of the world  would have it it would lessen their own power   I mean that's one way to to think about it and so  they just won't give it out because they're afraid  
1:11:58
1 hour, 11 minutes, 58 seconds
of someone like me got a hold of it I show how it  works and you know give it to everybody I mean not  
1:12:04
1 hour, 12 minutes, 4 seconds
that I would I mean I'm under my own agreements  and I would use it for National Security First I  
1:12:10
1 hour, 12 minutes, 10 seconds
mean I'm just being honest to people out there or  people who are gonna probably be all over Twitter   you know in 15 minutes after this thing comes out  and says you know Gary's gonna you know Gary's not  
1:12:20
1 hour, 12 minutes, 20 seconds
for us I am but I also understand that you have  there's a system within which to work because  
1:12:27
1 hour, 12 minutes, 27 seconds
um you know if you're if you're going to agree  to help uh and you're going to swear an oath  
1:12:34
1 hour, 12 minutes, 34 seconds
um then you're going to do what it is you said  you're doing I'm I'm For Better or Worse that's  
1:12:40
1 hour, 12 minutes, 40 seconds
the kind of person that I I am but I'm always  going to push for letting some aspect of it out  
1:12:50
1 hour, 12 minutes, 50 seconds
um so that the public can benefit even if we don't  know what it is I mean Corso the book by Corso is  
1:12:59
1 hour, 12 minutes, 59 seconds
an example of that that whatever understanding  they could have of it they did find a way to let  
1:13:04
1 hour, 13 minutes, 4 seconds
it out um but I think there's you know the the  other issue is letting people know that it is  
1:13:14
1 hour, 13 minutes, 14 seconds
it is real uh immediately creates a journalistic  tar trap tar pit that people will you know ask  
1:13:27
1 hour, 13 minutes, 27 seconds
the right questions why did you hide  it who did you hurt because you hit it  
1:13:33
1 hour, 13 minutes, 33 seconds
and so what kind of amnesty can you give to these  people uh you probably can but you you could give  
1:13:40
1 hour, 13 minutes, 40 seconds
them amnesty that's not going to start a thousand  court cases it's not going to stop I should say a  
1:13:46
1 hour, 13 minutes, 46 seconds
thousand court cases um and uh you know you you  you're going to ruin the lives of the people who  
1:13:54
1 hour, 13 minutes, 54 seconds
were involved whether you're given them amnesty or  not and so they are smart enough to realize that  
1:14:02
1 hour, 14 minutes, 2 seconds
uh and so um you know maybe we have to wait until  they die off geez and that that's that's a that's  
Chapter 22: The disclosure process
1:14:11
1 hour, 14 minutes, 11 seconds
you know that's a that's unfortunate and then we  look at this drip mechanism then that's coming in  
1:14:17
1 hour, 14 minutes, 17 seconds
through that we see um I'll say it's drip and I  think a lot of people have is referred to the UAP  
1:14:23
1 hour, 14 minutes, 23 seconds
topic they're slowly dripping it to us you know  they're slowly giving um you know the word again  
1:14:28
1 hour, 14 minutes, 28 seconds
disclosure uh because maybe for reasons like that  you know yeah I don't think I don't think that  
1:14:35
1 hour, 14 minutes, 35 seconds
there's like some checklist internally I think  you have these internal factions fighting each  
1:14:42
1 hour, 14 minutes, 42 seconds
other and those who can get a hold of whatever  information they can and feel that it's possible  
1:14:48
1 hour, 14 minutes, 48 seconds
for them to let it out they they do or they make  it out so the disclosure to the extent that there  
1:14:55
1 hour, 14 minutes, 55 seconds
is a program of disclosure is not because there's  a hidden checklist that somebody has behind the   scenes and they're saying okay let it out I  think it's because of the of the conflict going  
1:15:05
1 hour, 15 minutes, 5 seconds
on behind the scenes the I I think the forces  of let's say uh non-disclosure uh have rallied  
1:15:15
1 hour, 15 minutes, 15 seconds
uh and uh have basically pushed back hard which is  why there's things have slowed down a little bit  
1:15:23
1 hour, 15 minutes, 23 seconds
um and uh you know where's the UAP task force  report yeah it's so true where is it and so that's  
1:15:33
1 hour, 15 minutes, 33 seconds
that's frankly because there's a fight behind  the scenes as to what can be said in it  
1:15:41
1 hour, 15 minutes, 41 seconds
and that's just that's just the UAP task force  report that goes to Congress that's not even the  
1:15:47
1 hour, 15 minutes, 47 seconds
one that might be made public and I've heard it's  gone to Congress already it's now what it's going  
1:15:52
1 hour, 15 minutes, 52 seconds
to come out to us how are they publicly going  publicly going to Congress that's what I've heard  
1:15:58
1 hour, 15 minutes, 58 seconds
I've heard that it's gone to Congress I've heard  that that report has gone to Congress Congress has   it again I'm not 100 sure this is just what I've  heard this is hearsay that it's gone to Congress  
1:16:08
1 hour, 16 minutes, 8 seconds
but the report hasn't come out of what they're  publicly going to tell us said that hasn't been   done yet well obviously we don't have it but that  hasn't I don't know if it's been written I don't  
1:16:16
1 hour, 16 minutes, 16 seconds
know it's going to be like the word the and then  signed by you know black strip okay 100 that's  
1:16:27
1 hour, 16 minutes, 27 seconds
that's you know and and things I always say to you  the reason why I don't like always using the word   disclosure and I know we use it as a buzzword  but I feel that disclosure is ever going to be  
1:16:37
1 hour, 16 minutes, 37 seconds
happening right like it's always we're never going  to stop it you know one thing we're going to want   to know we might not believe it let's be honest is  is what we don't usually believe things that come  
1:16:46
1 hour, 16 minutes, 46 seconds
out now and a lot of people don't they don't even  a lot of people don't even follow the UAP topic   but as let's say we have a form of disclosure  there's going to be something next and next  
1:16:54
1 hour, 16 minutes, 54 seconds
and next it's never going to stop we're always  going to have questions so you're never fully   gonna get full disclosure because it will open  up a Floodgate of other things so I think it's  
Chapter 23: Analyzing physical materials
1:17:03
1 hour, 17 minutes, 3 seconds
ever evolving right I'm involved in two things uh  to help one is setting up an analytical framework  
1:17:14
1 hour, 17 minutes, 14 seconds
for materials that is like no other so you know  for instance people I mean people offer me stuff  
1:17:23
1 hour, 17 minutes, 23 seconds
they find all over the planet that they claim  is this or that and to the extent that any of it   is has a decent chain of evidence and isn't you  know just a rock that somebody found on a beach  
1:17:36
1 hour, 17 minutes, 36 seconds
um which I get a few of offers uh is um you  know so for instance these metal spheres uh  
1:17:46
1 hour, 17 minutes, 46 seconds
of Ross culhart right I had I was going to ask  you about that because there's so much online  
1:17:53
1 hour, 17 minutes, 53 seconds
controversy and I hate bringing up UFO Twitter  for not that I love UFO Twitter because I love   that there's conversation in the space but I  hate just the gossip that's in that Community  
1:18:02
1 hour, 18 minutes, 2 seconds
but I have to bring it up because they're saying  why isn't it why isn't why isn't uh Gary come out  
1:18:07
1 hour, 18 minutes, 7 seconds
with the the hasn't analyzed yet why isn't  that what's going on with the sphere it's  
1:18:15
1 hour, 18 minutes, 15 seconds
um so first of all Ross had no control over  what the what the advertisers did for his show  
1:18:22
1 hour, 18 minutes, 22 seconds
I mean so anybody who thinks that you know he  was the one who's who wrote All the headlines   it's like you know this you write an article  and the the news the people behind the scenes  
1:18:33
1 hour, 18 minutes, 33 seconds
right the headline and you know you don't have  much to say about what the headline is um from  
1:18:39
1 hour, 18 minutes, 39 seconds
your own article uh same thing for for Ross uh so  yeah he's giving materials and I haven't I have a  
1:18:48
1 hour, 18 minutes, 48 seconds
bunch of other materials but a one-off analysis  done just on that material so what are you going  
1:18:56
1 hour, 18 minutes, 56 seconds
to get it's got iron it's got a few other things  in it and maybe some carbon nickel okay so what  
1:19:08
1 hour, 19 minutes, 8 seconds
it has to be run with controls there's about  five other things that could be done afterwards  
1:19:16
1 hour, 19 minutes, 16 seconds
um so rather than with the 50  literally things that I've got  
1:19:22
1 hour, 19 minutes, 22 seconds
doing these little one-off experiments Each of  which is expensive and Each of which is time  
1:19:29
1 hour, 19 minutes, 29 seconds
consuming I have to ask one of my postdocs  or grad students to do it in their off hours   and then I have to work on the data because  I can't ask them to process the data  
1:19:40
1 hour, 19 minutes, 40 seconds
um and then what am I going to do post it on  Twitter no what I want to do is take a whole  
1:19:49
1 hour, 19 minutes, 49 seconds
bunch of these materials have an analytical  Pipeline and framework run all of them at once  
1:19:58
1 hour, 19 minutes, 58 seconds
so that they're all run at the  same time under the same conditions   Etc with enough left over that I could hand  to anybody else who wants to do it as well  
1:20:07
1 hour, 20 minutes, 7 seconds
and then publish a paper on it so I'm sorry to  the people who are so freaking impatient that  
1:20:12
1 hour, 20 minutes, 12 seconds
they won't get off their butt and go learn the  stuff and do it themselves I'm not your daddy  
1:20:18
1 hour, 20 minutes, 18 seconds
I'm not here to do things for you I'm sorry  get out of your basement and go do something  
1:20:26
1 hour, 20 minutes, 26 seconds
in the meantime I'm collecting the stuff and  I'm preparing that pipeline so that not only  
1:20:33
1 hour, 20 minutes, 33 seconds
will I be able to do that but should anybody on  the inside think that I have something valuable  
1:20:38
1 hour, 20 minutes, 38 seconds
they can come to me now why would they do that  because they already have because they've already  
1:20:45
1 hour, 20 minutes, 45 seconds
come to me with some of their results and I'm  and I basically said these results are [ __ ]  
1:20:50
1 hour, 20 minutes, 50 seconds
sorry I'm just going to be clear this is  shoddy work this could this can't go anywhere  
1:21:00
1 hour, 21 minutes
who did this it's crap all right that's 100 Fair  yeah so so that's the reason and this is expensive  
1:21:09
1 hour, 21 minutes, 9 seconds
I mean let's just run the numbers the equipment  that would be required to do a full A to Z  
1:21:18
1 hour, 21 minutes, 18 seconds
easily to buy the instruments retail or  whatever 50 60 million dollars to buy all the  
1:21:25
1 hour, 21 minutes, 25 seconds
kinds of instruments that you require to set up a  laboratory now you have to people that laboratory  
1:21:30
1 hour, 21 minutes, 30 seconds
with experts with each of those machines some  of these machines are like a lifetime work to  
1:21:36
1 hour, 21 minutes, 36 seconds
understand how to run them all right so now  you've got let's say five six technicians  
1:21:43
1 hour, 21 minutes, 43 seconds
at you know we call them an FTE of you know salary  and benefits two hundred thousand dollars and you  
1:21:50
1 hour, 21 minutes, 50 seconds
know running costs you got 10 of them that's two  or three million dollars a year and then and then  
1:22:00
1 hour, 22 minutes
you know managing costs for the instruments  is probably another million dollars a year for   warranties and all that kind of stuff I know that  because I run my own lab and that's basically what  
1:22:08
1 hour, 22 minutes, 8 seconds
it costs to run my lab my lab runs at about  three to four million dollars a year that's  
1:22:12
1 hour, 22 minutes, 12 seconds
what I I spend my off hours writing grants and  begging Charities for for money to keep it running  
Chapter 24: Scientific standards and validation
1:22:21
1 hour, 22 minutes, 21 seconds
um and so for all the people on Twitter who think  that this is just something you snap your fingers   and do go ahead I've seen some of those snap your  fingers reports and they're garbage yeah but we  
1:22:32
1 hour, 22 minutes, 32 seconds
don't want garbage we don't want garbage proper  data yeah it's going to be used by the naysayers  
1:22:38
1 hour, 22 minutes, 38 seconds
and they're going to pick it apart I mean even  the beautiful study that we did on the Atacama  
1:22:44
1 hour, 22 minutes, 44 seconds
uh skeleton the DNA study we did showing that it  was human and showing it had bone morphology genes  
1:22:51
1 hour, 22 minutes, 51 seconds
I had world's expert geneticists on South American  genetics and uh the world's expert in bone  
1:22:58
1 hour, 22 minutes, 58 seconds
disorder genes here at Stanford both of them being  at Stanford I did that 12 15 people on the paper  
1:23:08
1 hour, 23 minutes, 8 seconds
Roche Roche sequencing uh you know experts in  bioinformatician ETC we all did it everything  
1:23:16
1 hour, 23 minutes, 16 seconds
was double clicked I'm still a CIA plant that  you know was I was bought off by a grant from  
1:23:24
1 hour, 23 minutes, 24 seconds
the dad for ovarian research you know three  million dollars I get bought off I mean how  
1:23:31
1 hour, 23 minutes, 31 seconds
I didn't even analyze the data my students did  so I didn't get bought off you're accusing the  
1:23:38
1 hour, 23 minutes, 38 seconds
students of being bought off and a conspiracy so  this is what happens so even in the best of and  
1:23:45
1 hour, 23 minutes, 45 seconds
so one of the things I learned on that is that  because I wrote an email to Stephen Greer saying  
1:23:51
1 hour, 23 minutes, 51 seconds
in the early days I think there might be something  here I learned later that it was garbage that that  
1:23:57
1 hour, 23 minutes, 57 seconds
the data that I thought was anomalous was just  garbage it wasn't garbage it was just as a way  
1:24:04
1 hour, 24 minutes, 4 seconds
to process the data that I hadn't done I wasn't  aware of um but that didn't stop but because  
1:24:12
1 hour, 24 minutes, 12 seconds
he wanted it to be about an alien it didn't fit  his narrative so therefore he claims I'm a fraud  
1:24:20
1 hour, 24 minutes, 20 seconds
well my answer is with science is now he  claims that he has a piece of the boat so  
1:24:27
1 hour, 24 minutes, 27 seconds
go and he says that there are experts who  say that I'm wrong publish the darn paper   stop claiming that if you don't think that  I'm right publish a paper and prove I'm wrong
1:24:40
1 hour, 24 minutes, 40 seconds
I can be wrong if you publish the paper until  then you're full of [ __ ] right 100 and Stephen  
1:24:49
1 hour, 24 minutes, 49 seconds
Greer is his own bag of worms for sure but it's  indicative of a kind of of a kind of person that  
1:24:58
1 hour, 24 minutes, 58 seconds
does this but it but it taught me a lesson is  that you don't do science by press release you  
1:25:07
1 hour, 25 minutes, 7 seconds
don't do it by Twitter you you you you do it by  publishing it in a peer-reviewed paper which is  
1:25:16
1 hour, 25 minutes, 16 seconds
the standard by which other people can look at the  data and say whether or not what you did was right  
1:25:23
1 hour, 25 minutes, 23 seconds
um and if to the extent that the original  material that created the data is shareable  
1:25:29
1 hour, 25 minutes, 29 seconds
which this body is and people claim now to  have Pete that they had kept a piece of it  
1:25:35
1 hour, 25 minutes, 35 seconds
fine go reanalyze it that's what  you do that's what science is  
1:25:42
1 hour, 25 minutes, 42 seconds
um and so for all the people who wonder whether  or not I'm going to do anything with it the short  
1:25:47
1 hour, 25 minutes, 47 seconds
answer and I've told this to Ross and he knows it  is no not until I have the analytical framework  
1:25:54
1 hour, 25 minutes, 54 seconds
set up to do it thank you for clearing that up I  appreciate that because I know people would have  
1:26:01
1 hour, 26 minutes, 1 second
been harping on me as well if I didn't ask at  least to ask the question because it obviously  
1:26:08
1 hour, 26 minutes, 8 seconds
makes sense if there are materials that are  being analyzed it's like just give give the   respect to the scientist and give respect to the  person that's working on this and give respect  
1:26:16
1 hour, 26 minutes, 16 seconds
to anybody in this space even if it's Ross in  yourself that they give the time to analyze it   and obviously it is expensive so I appreciate you  where would you publish where would you publish  
1:26:26
1 hour, 26 minutes, 26 seconds
a paper on a few slivers of an item that could be  basically a garden ornament for all we know right  
1:26:36
1 hour, 26 minutes, 36 seconds
and so it is the only data that you would get  from that that is worthy of public if worthy of  
1:26:44
1 hour, 26 minutes, 44 seconds
anything is it's sufficiently anomalous and now  you take or whether it is or not now you take  
1:26:51
1 hour, 26 minutes, 51 seconds
that object and you go do X-rays of it and all  the all the rest um but again that's expensive  
1:26:59
1 hour, 26 minutes, 59 seconds
um you know someone's gonna somebody has to  do it and Shepherd the thing through all of  
1:27:05
1 hour, 27 minutes, 5 seconds
those processes and until you have it done I mean  it's it's it's worthless the data is just would  
1:27:12
1 hour, 27 minutes, 12 seconds
then just sit in isolation is not comparable to  anything I would rather publish a paper on 10  
1:27:19
1 hour, 27 minutes, 19 seconds
materials Each of which has a decent story behind  it and here's the uh analytics that we did the  
1:27:28
1 hour, 27 minutes, 28 seconds
different instruments Etc that we could rent  I'm not going to buy 50 million dollars worth   of instruments there's a couple of Laboratories  I know that have these and I can pay to have the  
1:27:37
1 hour, 27 minutes, 37 seconds
relevant experts do it um but it's still expensive  uh so if the next person who claims that they you  
1:27:45
1 hour, 27 minutes, 45 seconds
know that I'm not doing it start me a GoFundMe  and uh you know and we'll do it otherwise  
1:27:52
1 hour, 27 minutes, 52 seconds
you know you're wasting your breath I 100 sure  no no I think I'm so happy that you said that  
1:28:00
1 hour, 28 minutes
because you have to say your piece before the fact  that people have asked this question and it clears   it up now and if they have more questions I'll  get it I'll get it and I I appreciate you you  
1:28:11
1 hour, 28 minutes, 11 seconds
clearing it up again thank you so much Gary I  appreciate you taking the time with me and as  
1:28:16
1 hour, 28 minutes, 16 seconds
I say to all my guests thank you so much for being  rebelliously curious yeah thanks it's fun [Music]