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Vision Radio. [music] While our government's official  position is not to speculate on this subject, we  
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can [music] choose to let our minds explore other  possibilities to use our imaginations. For if we  
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consider that astrocientists agree on one point,  that the possibility of life elsewhere is not only  
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quite probable, some feel it is there without  a doubt. Let us [music] suppose them that these  
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objects are real space vehicles extraterrestrial  origin and not an illusion of the mind. [music]
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[music]
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I'm Ryan Spre and you are now  somewhere in the skies. [music]
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1 minute
Welcome to Somewhere in the Skies. I am your  host, Ryan Spreg, and today we have a very  
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1 minute, 5 seconds
special guest joining us once again, the one, the  only Jacques Valet. Now, Jacques has recently come  
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1 minute, 13 seconds
out with volume seven of his Forbidden Science  Journal series, and it's titled The Final Report.  
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So, what has a lifetime of studying the UFO  phenomenon truly taught Jacques Valet? What  
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has he kind of put to the wayside? And what  has he decided to continue to pursue when it  
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1 minute, 35 seconds
comes to this topic? Where does he stand on all  of this after decades of studying it? This is  
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such a fascinating wide-ranging conversation. We  talk about things like are UFO crashes deliberate  
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1 minute, 50 seconds
gifts to humanity? How do we communicate with  non-human intelligence beyond technology? Does  
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1 minute, 57 seconds
consciousness play a role in all of this? Uh where  does Jacques stand on different types of anomalous  
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phenomena? Uh he regals us with stories from the  past from his journal entries, his adventures in  
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2 minutes, 11 seconds
Brazil and in Russia and so many different things  like that. We get updates on things like the meta  
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2 minutes, 18 seconds
materials that Jacques has studied and analyzed  throughout the years and so so much more. We talk  
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2 minutes, 25 seconds
about Passport to Meonia. If you're watching this  on YouTube, I'm holding up a 1975 edition of the  
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2 minutes, 31 seconds
book that I hold dearly. So, we break that down  with him as well. So, so much that we talk about.  
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So, I truly think you're going to enjoy this  conversation. And I want to make one thing clear.  
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While this may be the final report by Jacques  Valet, this certainly is not the end of his work.  
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We know that this man has dedicated more than  half of his life to this topic and he surely  
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has more to contribute to that. So, we get some  final messages from Jacques about what he thinks  
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we should be doing moving forward as new people  enter this field of study every single day. What  
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advice does he have for us moving forward? What is  the future of disclosure? Where does he stand on  
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disclosure today? Are we any closer to answers  than when he first started? So, yeah, it's a  
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3 minutes, 27 seconds
fascinating conversation that I truly think you're  going to enjoy. But before I go, I want to take  
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just a few moments to ask you guys, please rate  and review Summer in the Skies on Apple Podcasts   and on Spotify. Every single rating and review  helps us gain visibility, find new listeners,  
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so we truly do appreciate that. If you're watching  on YouTube, simply like, subscribe, hit that   notification bell. We would really appreciate  that, too. If you'd like to help support us  
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further, there are ways to do that through  Patreon, YouTube channel membership, and Apple   Premium, as well. Links are in the show notes or  video description for that. But without further  
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ado, let's get to this wide-ranging, fascinating  conversation with the one, the only Jacques Valet.
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4 minutes, 17 seconds
For the third time in the history of the podcast,  I am deeply honored to have back on the show with  
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4 minutes, 23 seconds
me today, the one, the only Jacques Valet.  Jacques, welcome back, my friend. Thank you  
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4 minutes, 29 seconds
for having me. You know, a lot has happened since  the last time you and I spoke. I believe Scattered  
4:37
4 minutes, 37 seconds
Castles had just come out, your previous volume.  And now here we are with Forbidden Science Volume  
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4 minutes, 44 seconds
7, the final report. And there's been a lot  of talk in the UFO research community of, "Oh,  
4:52
4 minutes, 52 seconds
this is it. Jacques Valet's swan song, as it were,  when in reality, we all know your work is never  
5:00
5 minutes
truly done. This may be the last journals, but  um your work has not completed." Is that right?  
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5 minutes, 8 seconds
You know, I I've seen this so often that in  business and in, you know, in science that people  
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5 minutes, 16 seconds
do research or they have and then things change  and they don't, you know, they keep doing the same  
5:24
5 minutes, 24 seconds
things they've been doing before or teaching the  same courses. You can't do that. I mean, you know,  
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5 minutes, 31 seconds
there has been a sea change, a recognition now  finally a recognition that the the phenomenon  
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5 minutes, 42 seconds
is is real, you know, that the witnesses were not  lying, that they were actually seeing something  
5:51
5 minutes, 51 seconds
extraordinary. And also that uh you know there  are a number of organizations that have been  
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5 minutes, 59 seconds
researching it [clears throat] all all the time  okay without telling anybody without telling us so  
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6 minutes, 6 seconds
um now that it's out to some extent at least  um we need to change what we were doing and  
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6 minutes, 15 seconds
I want to change my own role you know it's not  it's not the time to do the same research arch  
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6 minutes, 22 seconds
we were doing 10 years ago. you know I I want to  and also you know I'm I'm a little bit older and  
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uh I think my there are number of exciting  new uh ideas in the field and and new people  
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6 minutes, 41 seconds
leading it you know and uh both that there  are three universities in the US that now  
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6 minutes, 49 seconds
teach courses about UFOs in various ways but uh  And you know starting with Stanford and Colombia  
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and Harvard I mean you know this is doesn't get  better than that. Yeah. And and they have their  
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own money you know. So this is uh I'm hoping  that Europe is going to you know enter the the  
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same start doing the same thing. But things  are always slower [snorts] in in Europe. Um,  
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I'm still in Paris for a couple of weeks and  it's it's [snorts] getting crazy here. Um,  
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7 minutes, 32 seconds
but things are getting organized and I I think  that's where I I want to redefine my role as  
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7 minutes, 44 seconds
support, you know, providing support to the the  new people who are going to lead the research.  
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Um I've I've you know I've done [snorts] what I  could and um I've given my report and now there  
Chapter 2: Why UFO Disclosure May Not Be What We Expect
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are many many new directions to explore but one  danger there there are two dangers or two hazards  
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you know if you want one is that new people  think that they got it because they've been  
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watching podcasts for the last two years and  uh they have not done research on the in the  
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8 minutes, 30 seconds
field or very little. They've read books which  is good but they don't have the personal in  
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experience. [snorts] Well, some of them have seen  UFOs. Okay. Some of them have had you know like  
8:46
8 minutes, 46 seconds
Dr. Nolan at at Stanford made no secret of the  fact that when he was a kid, you know, like me,  
8:54
8 minutes, 54 seconds
he had a a personal experience and he never kept  it secret like I I never kept secret, you know,  
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the fact that I saw something I could not  explain with several witnesses when I was a kid.  
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9 minutes, 10 seconds
So um but you know many things have happened over  the last 60 years that came and went and you know  
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9 minutes, 23 seconds
disappeared under the wave so to speak and that  people need to know uh to understand what's going  
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9 minutes, 31 seconds
on now. So that's uh that's I think that's part of  my role. Right. And I appreciate that, you know,  
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9 minutes, 40 seconds
a lot of people in this field of research,  they do get stuck in their ways, you know,  
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9 minutes, 46 seconds
no matter no matter what, they will not waver from  their core beliefs. And it's so refreshing to hear  
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that someone who has researched this topic for  so long in the various subsets of phenomena that  
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seem to be occurring that you're willing to kind  of open your mind up to those other possibilities.  
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So I guess shock my my question for you would  be what are some of those fundamental changes  
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10 minutes, 13 seconds
that you think need to take place rather than  just the nuts and bolts phenomena that the  
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government might be investigating? Well, there is  a drastic change right here in Paris. As you know,  
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the the French government has had a research  unit for a long time, the longest of many country  
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uh unclassified, non-military that has looked at  many cases from citizens from from the public.  
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Um they just announced that um they were  reorganizing because of what's going on and  
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contrary to what people think they are essentially  asking us they they asked me to rejoin them  
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officially which I'm you know I I was grateful  for and uh but we all had to sign a two-page  
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essentially security agreement. Okay. In other  words, yes, uh we'll continue the research in a  
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new way with probably more resources, but it will  be it's not exactly classified in the military  
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sense, but it's um essentially a secret, you know,  [clears throat] secret clothes. the the re so  
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people have this perception that everything will  be open you know disclosure disclosure disclosure  
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let's go dance in the streets um I I I don't  think that's going to happen the way they they  
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think it will uh because the moment you disclose  that okay there is something we don't understand  
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it you know as as director of the CIA said five  years ago in a church in Washington with Dr. Ail  
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and with the Archbishop of Washington and with the  director of NASA, the administrator of NASA. Um,  
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we don't know what this is. You know, number one,  it's real. Number two, we don't know what this is.  
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It's not the Russians. It's not the Chinese. It's  not any of that. Okay. Great. So um that raises  
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a number of new questions. Now they are very  serious important questions. That means that  
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systems are going to be put in place and that  money will be allocated. There will be budgets  
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in the millions of dollars which there has never  been. Yeah. I mean those were very small things.  
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many volunteers like me and um now that's going  to change. It's going to be more academic and  
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it's going to be more structured. It's going to  be so u yes disclosure uh disclosure of what? Good  
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question. Yeah. No, when um No, it's it's great  with this closed there is something we didn't  
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quite see it before. Now our eyes open. There is  something. Um what happens the next day? Well,  
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the next day people will say, well, you know that  we've disclosed that uh those things were real and  
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they landed and they left traces. Well, you know,  I can introduce you to a number of farmers. I've  
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I've gone there. I've seen the traces. They  know if I go back and I say, you know, John,  
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this was real. They say, Jack, where have you  been? [laughter] I You came here three times.  
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I showed you the traces. I showed you the holes.  I showed you the the places where the trees were  
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destroyed and so on. Um, I I I told you this was  for him. You know, we we already know that. Okay.  
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So, that's not disclosure. I mean, they can maybe  in Washington it's a disclosure, but it's not a  
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disclosure in Wisconsin and Montana and Texas.  Okay. So, what else? Well, there are ships, you  
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know, that round things and [snorts] cylinders,  you know, cigars, discs that have left imprints.  
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Well, you know, I've measured those imprints.  I've published all this, you know, into scientific  
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press, you know, with Dr. knowledge and with with  other with my colleagues here in France, you know,  
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we we recovered some materials and we took them  to Sakair Atomic Center here close to Paris to  
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test it and we published all that. There was a  case, you know, it's funny because people expect,  
Chapter 3: What Governments Already Know About UFOs
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you know, the the the the Pentagon is going to  reveal certain secrets. Okay. And we've had five  
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series of disclosures on the internet, you know,  in the last two months of things that happened  
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two years ago. You know, there was a light in  the sky. Somebody maybe took a picture. And  
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you're telling me this was really important and  nobody followed up right in the Pentagon, right?  
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That was was tracked. They had a picture of it.  They had a witness. And now all we have is gee,  
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you know, it's gone. Yeah. And they throw it  to the scientists. You know that doesn't that  
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make any sense? So I think we'll have to take a  step back. We we already know a lot. The people  
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already know a lot. Most of the cases were from  civilians. You know the the military cases are  
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especially interesting because the military  expects a threat. So they have they can they  
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have be better detection systems especially you  know aviation as we saw with the limits and so on  
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but the limits you know were over 20 years since  the limits we still don't know what it was I mean  
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it's not resolved we don't know whether there was  a natural explanation or a technology explanation  
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or whether It's a UFO. We don't know that. I mean,  until we know it's a UFO, but [laughter] you know  
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what I mean. So, um, what's the disclosure?  Well, uh, there were creatures with it.  
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Well, you know, I remember when I was a kid  hearing an interview on French radio of some  
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guy in Kub near Liil in the north of France who  had seen something land on the railroad tracks.  
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He was a railroad guy um leaving imprints on the  on the tracks and there were two creatures next  
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to it. So everybody knew that you know this was  the early 60s late 50s. See my wife [laughter]
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I'm getting there too. I'm getting there. I I I've  heard all that. Okay. I I've heard all that. So,  
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um so the disclosure is uh maybe we captured  some of those and we've been studying them.  
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Uh that story I remember Dr. Heinneck telling me  telling me that he didn't have any proof of that.  
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uh he was not a doctor so he probably would not  have been in in the room with the surgeons but  
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uh there was pretty good documentation  of that already and you remember just a  
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few months ago the the case in Brazil ah  well the doctor was brought to Washington  
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and the doctor said yes you know I had  this body on you know in my hospital and  
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I studied it. Okay. So, so we know that.  Okay. So, so what else is there that we  
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need to disclose? Well, um, at that point  we have to be very careful because the
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we from where we stand we don't have any  way of checking anything that they say.
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Um, so how are we going to test it? How are the  media going to know what questions to ask? There  
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will be a press conference that says, "Okay, we  have A, B, and C. Well, what about D, E, and F?  
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Where is it?" You know, uh, is anybody going to  ask that question or are we going to And it's a  
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complex case. It's a complex phenomena. Um, I've  been studying it not quite all over the world,  
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but you know, I'm I know the French files. I  know the Spanish files. I know the Argentinian  
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and the Brazilian files. I've gone to Brazil  four times. I've gone to Argentina four times  
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investigating things in the field. Okay. The  first time I went to Brazil, I was invited  
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there by the police of Rio de Janeiro because  they knew I had previously studied a case where  
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two men had received messages and they thought  they were messages from space. We have no proof  
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that if they went to the top of a hill near Rio de  Janeiro, [clears throat] they would be contacted  
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by something. They went to the top of the hill and  they were found dead the next day. Both of them,  
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right? The lead masks. Right. Yes. Yes. With  lead masks. Mhm. Well, uh, I had a report from a  
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society lady in Rio who had written to a friend of  mine who was an investigator in Rio that she had  
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seen the whole thing. She was driving the towards  rail on on the freeway and she was watching the  
Chapter 4: Investigating UFO Cases Around the World
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the hill the um vint where the and she saw a  light coming down on top of the of the peak
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and she reported that and I had that report. I  had her report. Well, um that's why the the real  
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police, I mean, this was a dead case, but they  they pick up like most police, you know, big  
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police uh uh groups in big cities. They they keep  archives and they go back to the unsolved cases.  
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They asked me to come back to Rio with  them and go up to the top of that mountain,  
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to the top of that that hill and and and talk to  some of the witnesses who had been there. And we  
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we did that as a as a group with an interpreter.  I don't speak Portuguese. Um that was incredible.  
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And since then I've gone back three times to uh  to Brazil with um always with local people who  
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knew the language, knew the dialects of Brazil,  of which there are many, and knew the territory  
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and could take me to the right places, including  places where there was no road, no transportation,  
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and and you would be there, you know, in in  the forest [snorts] and you would talk to the  
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people who had actually [clears throat] had the  experience. All the wounds, some of them were  
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wounded. I had photographs of the wounds from the  local doctor and I published those photographs.  
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Okay. So, all that we've done would have been  there. Yeah. All that was civilian. You know,  
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I I have no I I've looked at a few official cases  and a few military cases uh especially in Brazil,  
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you know, escorted by the the officers who  had done the work. But I never, you know,  
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went to reexamine the military case on my own. I  have no no statute for doing this. no no authority  
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for doing this. But the civilian cases are in a  way richer than the military cases because the  
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24 minutes, 48 seconds
the farmer in the field, he has animals. He has  traces. He knows the weather. He knows the noises.  
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24 minutes, 59 seconds
He knows what's he he can tell from the reaction  of his of his dogs for example whether there are  
25:08
25 minutes, 8 seconds
places that the dogs will avoid places that the  cattle will avoid. You know he uh he knows the  
25:19
25 minutes, 19 seconds
health of of of the of the cattle. He knows he  can he can tell when there is something wrong in  
25:26
25 minutes, 26 seconds
the environment. Okay. a pilot in, you know, an  F-18 has remarkable instruments to fight combat.  
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25 minutes, 41 seconds
I mean, that's all it does. Now, as part of that,  he or she is in communication with people on the  
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ground, people above above him in the Awax and  everything else around. Okay? So, he'sworked  
25:59
25 minutes, 59 seconds
and he has instruments and but many of the pilots  when they took pictures of UFOs recently in the  
26:07
26 minutes, 7 seconds
last few years took them with you know with their  little Apple right little Apple camera they they  
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26 minutes, 19 seconds
didn't have a you know so the all those things  you know are things that will have to be clarified  
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26 minutes, 29 seconds
because the the press doesn't really understand  it and the the public the you know in the US  
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26 minutes, 43 seconds
um the the the military cases that I think America  has never uh grown and that we shouldn't grow out  
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26 minutes, 59 seconds
of uh you know the attack of the Japanese in Pearl  Harbor that remains you know that was a surprise  
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that precipitated the entrance of the US into  World War II you know two years after the start  
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of World War II uh that's what precipitated  the thing was a treason was a surprise was a  
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you know catastrophic realization and the world  had changed. Okay, we may be close to something  
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27 minutes, 31 seconds
like that. So, Americans have never forgotten  that. You don't get the same reaction in around  
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27 minutes, 39 seconds
here in Paris. You know, people are preoccupied  with all kinds of other things right now and the  
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um you know, especially the price of goods and the  price of gasoline, okay, which is that that's the  
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27 minutes, 55 seconds
problem. Um, aliens. Well, you know, uh, we could  welcome aliens. Uh, you know, the Pope said, "If  
28:04
28 minutes, 4 seconds
you show me an alien, I'll offer to baptize him,  you know." Yeah. Which is a very gentle, you know,  
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remark by a pilot, you know, right? So um we're  not talking about waiting with machine guns and  
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28 minutes, 22 seconds
um so there are cultural biases in the idea of  disclosure you know that's all that's all I want  
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to say. Yeah. Yeah. No, I and you know someone  like you who like you said you have traveled to  
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other countries and experienced other cultures and  how they either reject or embrace these phenomena.  
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uh that does play a big role and like you said  the farmer in the field having the experience  
28:52
28 minutes, 52 seconds
and there's trace evidence that is so much more  important than a grainy photo or video from a  
28:59
28 minutes, 59 seconds
quote unquote sophisticated military gun camera.  You know what I mean? So that's fascinating.  
Chapter 5: UFO Materials and Garry Nolan's Research
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29 minutes, 6 seconds
You mentioned one thing, Jacques, that I did  want to touch on, and that was, you know,  
29:10
29 minutes, 10 seconds
your work with Gary Nolan and these materials  that you had studied. I'd love to know where does  
29:18
29 minutes, 18 seconds
that stand today in 2026 when it comes to these  materials? And do you think the public overall  
29:25
29 minutes, 25 seconds
will ever have a moment of seeing these or or I  guess not seeing knowing that these materials are  
29:34
29 minutes, 34 seconds
of non-human origin or were constructed off world  or where do you stand on all of that today when it  
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comes to materials? Well, the there are a couple  of things which should be dispelled or explained  
29:51
29 minutes, 51 seconds
about that. First what I turned over to to Gary  to Dr. Nolan was in part my own collections that  
30:00
30 minutes
I had accumulated over and some of it came  from the US but a lot of it came from France  
30:07
30 minutes, 7 seconds
and Spain and you know other places. um the the  idea of confiscating all this in the US doesn't  
30:18
30 minutes, 18 seconds
make any sense because a lot of that comes from  outside and you know the US has no jurisdiction  
30:24
30 minutes, 24 seconds
to stop that because other fragments are you know  at at different places in different labs around  
30:31
30 minutes, 31 seconds
the world. Okay. So I was shown some some pieces  when I I I was in Russia, you know, some years ago  
30:42
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um that they had recovered after the landing  of a UFO in in in Russia. So I I don't have it,  
30:50
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but you [clears throat and snorts] know the  it it's all over the world. So uh that's what  
30:58
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I turned over that that whole collection uh to  uh to Gary at Stanford when uh professor Sturok  
31:08
31 minutes, 8 seconds
who was an astrophysicist at Stanford with whom I  worked for two years in astrophysics at Stanford  
31:16
31 minutes, 16 seconds
um had become very interested in this whole  subject and he had a collection of of artifacts  
31:26
31 minutes, 26 seconds
of of materials that he gave me when he retired.  We worked together on those that included the  
31:36
31 minutes, 36 seconds
Ubatuba material from Brazil. He went to Brazil.  He went to Ubatuba to talk to people there and so  
31:43
31 minutes, 43 seconds
on. So we had worked on that together. So I I also  turned that over to to Dr. Nolan. The Stanford has  
31:55
31 minutes, 55 seconds
had three generations of u of of people staff  people and faculty people who have worked on  
32:05
32 minutes, 5 seconds
this and continue to work on this. So uh there is  a a legacy there over many years okay 50 years. So  
32:17
32 minutes, 17 seconds
um that's what the collection consists of. So now  I think what what he's doing and I'm still helping  
32:25
32 minutes, 25 seconds
him to the extent I can is to uh organize all that  and and and begin to test it systematically. Okay.  
32:37
32 minutes, 37 seconds
Now people say well you know you've had this for  years how come you haven't analyzed it? Well,  
32:44
32 minutes, 44 seconds
you know, the chemical analysis has been done  a long time ago by other people, but it can be  
32:50
32 minutes, 50 seconds
fooled. You know, we it it's just chemistry. So,  it's useful. Some of it is very good. Some of it  
33:01
33 minutes, 1 second
was done by APRO or Bon or you know other groups  like that in university labs by professionals and  
33:10
33 minutes, 10 seconds
so on. But it doesn't tell us enough to to  really find out whether there is something  
33:20
33 minutes, 20 seconds
that has been manipulated scientifically inside  the material you have to look at the isotopes.  
33:28
33 minutes, 28 seconds
Now the isotopes that are in you know the most  commonly done are those for atomic bombs you know  
33:38
33 minutes, 38 seconds
uranium and plutonium and so on. Well the budgets  are unlimited to do that. So um there are other  
33:50
33 minutes, 50 seconds
people who manipulate isotopes for hospitals in  very very small quantities you know to as tracers  
34:00
34 minutes
in the body. You could be in in some conditions  you could be injected with a few, you know, very  
34:10
34 minutes, 10 seconds
very few micrograms of of radioactive material  or specially uh specially manipulated material to  
34:21
34 minutes, 21 seconds
trace where it goes in the body because there is  no other way of knowing you know the the condition  
34:28
34 minutes, 28 seconds
of a particular disease. But that that's evacuated  in less than 24 hours, you know, and it's very  
34:36
34 minutes, 36 seconds
very small radioactivity when it's radioactive but  and it's very expensive, you know, but hospitals  
34:45
34 minutes, 45 seconds
maintain isotopes, you know, artificial isotopes  or artificial material with selected isotopes. The  
34:56
34 minutes, 56 seconds
isotopes are not artificial. isotopes isotopes.  Um, so another fallacy is people say, "Oh,  
35:06
35 minutes, 6 seconds
you know, if if you had found at Stanford, if you  guys had found a difference in the isotopes, that  
35:14
35 minutes, 14 seconds
would show it was from extraterrestrial." Well,  that's not true. We have uh we have, you know,  
35:25
35 minutes, 25 seconds
material. We have rocks from the moon and Mars on  earth here. Uh those from the moon were brought  
35:34
35 minutes, 34 seconds
back by the astronauts and but some of it was  ejected by impact of meteors and you know they  
35:42
35 minutes, 42 seconds
went through space and they were captured by the  earth. So I I have a small collection of those.  
35:48
35 minutes, 48 seconds
Um, if you could test them, you would find the  same isotope ratios [clears throat] because  
35:55
35 minutes, 55 seconds
that's physics does that. I mean, the atom needs  to have those isotopes in certain proportions. So,  
36:04
36 minutes, 4 seconds
it will it may change by a few percent, maybe  3%, maybe 5%. Depending on where it landed and  
36:14
36 minutes, 14 seconds
you know where it was as a rock or as a as a  metal but it um it's not going to vary by 35%.  
36:25
36 minutes, 25 seconds
So if you find a variation above 10%. You have  to pay attention. Somebody did it intentionally.  
Chapter 6: Isotopes, Scientific Evidence, and Extraterrestrial Technology
36:33
36 minutes, 33 seconds
Maybe they did it intentionally, you know, on  the satellite of Jupiter or maybe they did it  
36:40
36 minutes, 40 seconds
intentionally in PaloAlto. Okay. Or in or London.  Right. So I I think you have to you have to put  
36:49
36 minutes, 49 seconds
all that between parentheses. Okay. Yeah. Um so  that's where we are. That's where the the science  
36:58
36 minutes, 58 seconds
has to restart. Um a number of people have those  collections. Uh some of them keep them, you know,  
37:06
37 minutes, 6 seconds
secret because they think they're going to make  millions. There are some pieces of rock that are  
37:13
37 minutes, 13 seconds
offered on the internet for $8 million. You  can have something from Roswell. Okay. Well,  
37:20
37 minutes, 20 seconds
sure. Yeah. So, uh, that's part of the, you know,  the myth. Um, that's not what we're trying what  
37:30
37 minutes, 30 seconds
we're talking about. We, we have a chain of  evidence behind everything we have, you know,  
37:36
37 minutes, 36 seconds
at Stanford. Um, if you don't have a chain of  evidence, you're not going to publish the results,  
37:43
37 minutes, 43 seconds
but nobody will will really look at it because you  could always fool it, you know, in a lab somewhere  
37:51
37 minutes, 51 seconds
on a small scale, right? Um, those things have to  be replicated. They should be published quickly.  
37:58
37 minutes, 58 seconds
We've published everything we had so far, but  it's expensive. It takes specialists. It's long.  
38:07
38 minutes, 7 seconds
And people say, well, you know, all you need  to do is take a measurement. Well, you can't   take a measurement because your colleagues  will say, you've been very sloppy, and they  
38:17
38 minutes, 17 seconds
won't look at it. [snorts] You need to take 10  or 12 or 20 measurements throughout the material  
38:26
38 minutes, 26 seconds
in different areas. Um, [clears throat] and you  know, each one may cost, you know, 10 or $20,000.  
38:36
38 minutes, 36 seconds
So unless you have the instruments and you know  the great thing about professor Nolan is that he  
38:44
38 minutes, 44 seconds
has developed his own machines for biology. So  we can test very very small amounts of material  
38:54
38 minutes, 54 seconds
and there we also have access to you know the big  the big things at Stanford that the students and  
39:02
39 minutes, 2 seconds
the ge the geologists are the ones who use those  instruments you know not so much the physicists  
39:10
39 minutes, 10 seconds
but the physicists too but it's mostly the the  geologists because it helps them trace certain  
39:18
39 minutes, 18 seconds
phenomena inside the earth. Okay. By by looking  at the isotopes. So um the um you need to get  
39:28
39 minutes, 28 seconds
time on those machines and time is expensive. So  this is not easy. This this will take financing.  
39:36
39 minutes, 36 seconds
It'll take teams of specialists. Usually  those are [clears throat] you know postphd  
39:44
39 minutes, 44 seconds
uh students who continue to to to work on research  in universities but you know couple of years after  
39:53
39 minutes, 53 seconds
their PhD and they're well established and  they they know the technology completely some  
40:02
40 minutes, 2 seconds
of them have built the machine. So I I think  that's important and but it's not easy. Yeah.  
40:12
40 minutes, 12 seconds
Yeah. It takes time. It takes time. But it's  exciting to know that students are, you know,  
40:18
40 minutes, 18 seconds
passionate and pursuing it. And just like the UFO  community, these geologists, these scientists,  
40:25
40 minutes, 25 seconds
these chemists, like they want answers, too.  They want the answers to the biggest questions.  
40:31
40 minutes, 31 seconds
Is this from a non-human intelligence or not? But  like you said, it takes time, it takes resources,  
40:37
40 minutes, 37 seconds
but I think it's in the right hands and I I  look forward to the future of that as well. Um,  
40:43
40 minutes, 43 seconds
physics, Jock, you mentioned the word  physics and I want to kind of play off  
40:50
40 minutes, 50 seconds
of that in terms of like the antithesis of  that, something so far beyond physics that  
40:56
40 minutes, 56 seconds
we're still trying to understand it if we  ever will. and that's consciousness. Now,  
41:02
41 minutes, 2 seconds
you recently were featured on the Bicolo podcast  with George Schnapp Kellaher and uh there were  
41:11
41 minutes, 11 seconds
some really interesting conversations that took  place in terms of consciousness on that as well  
41:18
41 minutes, 18 seconds
when it comes to communicating with possible  non-human intelligence. You guys even brought up  
41:24
41 minutes, 24 seconds
the idea of AI being a possible way to communicate  or completely bypassing humans altogether and  
41:33
41 minutes, 33 seconds
the AI just communicating with the non-human  intelligence. That was a fascinating conversation  
41:39
41 minutes, 39 seconds
that really the AI will ask that question. Yeah.  Right. Um could you expand on that a little bit?
41:50
41 minutes, 50 seconds
Hello, this is Ryan Spreg, the host of Somewhere  in the Skies. If you're enjoying our podcast,  
41:55
41 minutes, 55 seconds
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42 minutes, 1 second
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42 minutes, 8 seconds
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42:14
42 minutes, 14 seconds
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42 minutes, 19 seconds
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42 minutes, 26 seconds
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42 minutes, 37 seconds
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42:42
42 minutes, 42 seconds
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42:48
42 minutes, 48 seconds
check the links in the show notes [music] or  the video description. And real talk here,   guys, thank you for listening and supporting us  for almost 10 years. And thank you for supporting  
43:00
43 minutes
independent content. and I hope you'll continue  to join me somewhere in the [music] skies.
43:10
43 minutes, 10 seconds
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43:20
43 minutes, 20 seconds
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43 minutes, 26 seconds
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43:32
43 minutes, 32 seconds
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43 minutes, 39 seconds
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43 minutes, 44 seconds
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43 minutes, 50 seconds
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43 minutes, 58 seconds
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Chapter 7: Consciousness, AI, and Non-Human Intelligence
44:12
44 minutes, 12 seconds
in terms of of of human consciousness. Um,  you know, we keep discovering or rediscovering
44:25
44 minutes, 25 seconds
aspects of what it does that we've set aside  because our science was so good. Okay? We we  
44:34
44 minutes, 34 seconds
make mistakes all the time. you know, you you look  at something in the sky, you know, you think it's  
44:41
44 minutes, 41 seconds
a balloon and it's not really a balloon, it's  something else. And you know, it's Superman,  
44:49
44 minutes, 49 seconds
you know, the old thing. So the uh we we we go  through approximations of you know and it's good  
45:01
45 minutes, 1 second
enough for us to survive you know dayto-day  when you are in exceptional situations as in  
45:13
45 minutes, 13 seconds
um in trance uh in dreams um under and the  drugs whether medical or you know recreational  
45:26
45 minutes, 26 seconds
and so on people start seeing all kinds of other  things because you change the reference levels in  
45:33
45 minutes, 33 seconds
the brain. Okay. Um we know that animals have a  range of perceptions that's very different from  
45:43
45 minutes, 43 seconds
ours. I mean, one of the things that fascinates me  about civilian cases and farmers is farmers have,  
45:52
45 minutes, 52 seconds
you know, animals around them and trained  dogs that will see something or recognize  
46:00
46 minutes
something that humans don't. And the farmer  is, you know, always very careful to to to
46:12
46 minutes, 12 seconds
recognize what the dog is looking at and,  you know, why the dog behaves in a certain  
46:18
46 minutes, 18 seconds
way. [clears throat] Um so um the consciousness  is is not limited to humans of course and we know  
46:30
46 minutes, 30 seconds
very little about we well we know something but  we don't know enough about animal consciousness  
46:37
46 minutes, 37 seconds
and how it it expands. If you grow up as  a little kid, as I did with with a cat,
46:48
46 minutes, 48 seconds
you know, wait a minute, that that that cat is  smart. That cat knows many things before you  
46:56
46 minutes, 56 seconds
do. So, um the the problem is um that's what we  were discussing with with Dr. Keller and with Mr.  
47:10
47 minutes, 10 seconds
Bigalow um how do we how can you do something new  in research about consciousness you know and uh  
47:22
47 minutes, 22 seconds
there are of course a number of things that have  already been done there's a lot of experiences  
47:30
47 minutes, 30 seconds
in the last 50 years in the US in the UK and you  know in Europe and so on about about consciousness  
47:39
47 minutes, 39 seconds
and and also a lot has been learned with uh  people from India and people from China coming  
47:47
47 minutes, 47 seconds
to California especially where I live you know  that I and I' I've seen those exchanges being  
47:54
47 minutes, 54 seconds
part of some some of those exchanges and you  have places like that were structured just to  
48:02
48 minutes, 2 seconds
you know especially to look at those exch  to facilitate those exchanges so we know a  
48:09
48 minutes, 9 seconds
But uh places like Noexics also which was started  by an astronaut you know um because of in part  
48:19
48 minutes, 19 seconds
because of his experiences in space. So uh on you  know on the moon. So um it's a new day for that  
48:34
48 minutes, 34 seconds
study. It's going to be difficult. It's going to  be expensive. It will take many many disciplines.  
48:44
48 minutes, 44 seconds
And the problem there is not so much the to  to dig up the knowledge that already exists,  
48:51
48 minutes, 51 seconds
but to cross over the different disciplines, you  know. Um, I I worked at when I was at Stanford,  
49:00
49 minutes
I did a lot of work with the surgery department  because they had files and they couldn't find  
49:07
49 minutes, 7 seconds
anything in their files and they needed  databases and I was, you know, my PhD was  
49:13
49 minutes, 13 seconds
about AI applied to databases. So they I I ended  up doing a lot of applications for the surgeons.  
49:25
49 minutes, 25 seconds
So that was my my chance to to ask some questions.  You always want to ask you know a surgeon at  
49:33
49 minutes, 33 seconds
Stanford. Uh like you know you when you operate  on the brain you know what how do you know what  
49:42
49 minutes, 42 seconds
the condition of the patient is going to be  when they wake up? And um they you know the  
49:52
49 minutes, 52 seconds
answer usually was you should ask a psychologist  about that because you know we fix the structures  
50:01
50 minutes, 1 second
that are damaged. We cannot tell you what that's  going to do. Okay? Right? There are people who  
50:09
50 minutes, 9 seconds
have had the parts of their brain removed and  they've reacquired the ability to play music  
50:22
50 minutes, 22 seconds
or to speak Chinese when the the Chinese lessons  had been thrown out. Mhm. With a scalpel. Okay.  
50:34
50 minutes, 34 seconds
and they got somehow the the brain reconstructed  those memories and those abilities. There are also  
50:44
50 minutes, 44 seconds
cases where and and they were you know on the  level I mean I was with them in you know in the  
50:52
50 minutes, 52 seconds
operating theater and there was no no question  they said we we try to save you know the person  
Chapter 8: Remote Viewing and Consciousness Beyond the Brain
51:02
51 minutes, 2 seconds
we try to save the life and as much as we can  of the intellect but we cannot tell you what's  
51:09
51 minutes, 9 seconds
going to happen later what the and they the  the brain has this amazing plasticity. That  
51:17
51 minutes, 17 seconds
was the first time I heard the word plasticity  in connection with the brain. Okay. Yeah. That  
51:26
51 minutes, 26 seconds
it it reshapes itself and it reconstructs certain  structures that you had extracted with a scalpel.  
51:38
51 minutes, 38 seconds
That's construct the ability not the structure.  The structure is the ability could come back.  
51:45
51 minutes, 45 seconds
There are some abilities that you lose. I mean,  you know, at my my age, I'm certainly part of my  
51:52
51 minutes, 52 seconds
memory is is not what it was when I was, you know,  30 or 40. And I but my my brain is constructing  
52:02
52 minutes, 2 seconds
other structures super structures to reconstruct  it in another way. So the I I'm watching this with  
52:12
52 minutes, 12 seconds
you know some some passion. [laughter] Yeah.  Certainly some some personal interest. Do you  
52:20
52 minutes, 20 seconds
feel, Jacques, that that's kind of your new uh  outlook on how to either communicate or commune  
52:31
52 minutes, 31 seconds
or possibly understand these phenomena, this  new way of thinking that you're kind of finding  
52:38
52 minutes, 38 seconds
yourself in um as the years go by? Well, it's it's  a road we have to build. Okay. Okay. We need to go  
52:46
52 minutes, 46 seconds
there and and the road is is is bad. The road  is little pieces and so on. But we we need to  
52:59
52 minutes, 59 seconds
um there are theories of consciousness. Of  course, every philosopher has developed a  
53:07
53 minutes, 7 seconds
theory of consciousness. But you know the to  me the the most interesting theories are those  
53:18
53 minutes, 18 seconds
that say that part of consciousness is outside  the body. Mhm. Okay. And I certainly verified  
53:28
53 minutes, 28 seconds
that at SRRI you know with Dr. Pov, Dr. Tag  and Inggo Swan and Yuri Geller, you know,  
53:37
53 minutes, 37 seconds
and over the the years I spent at SRRI with them.  I mean, I wasn't in their project. I was in the  
53:45
53 minutes, 45 seconds
the early I [clears throat] can tell you the tales  of horrors of the early internet. [laughter] Uh  
53:55
53 minutes, 55 seconds
I can tell you about the horrors of the internet  today, but [snorts] we won't go into that. Yeah.  
54:02
54 minutes, 2 seconds
So um there is no question that in remote viewing  for example your consciousness has access. So we  
54:15
54 minutes, 15 seconds
we put it in words like you know you transfer your  consciousness outside you you're not transferring  
54:22
54 minutes, 22 seconds
your consciousness outside of your body. I mean um  as as far as my experience that they uh your your  
54:35
54 minutes, 35 seconds
consciousness extends outside of the brain and  we we need to look at it in the brain. Of course  
54:44
54 minutes, 44 seconds
if we destroy parts of the brain you destroy some  aspects of consciousness but that's not the point.  
54:52
54 minutes, 52 seconds
You know, there are people who essentially  had no brain and they could play music. Okay,  
54:59
54 minutes, 59 seconds
there there are all kinds of strange things in  the in the archives of the hospitals. You know,  
55:06
55 minutes, 6 seconds
there are people who are born with very very  primitive brain structures and they function.  
55:16
55 minutes, 16 seconds
How do you do that? Right? And and then when  you talk to the biologists, they will show you  
55:26
55 minutes, 26 seconds
a a little spider that's just, you know, half  a centimeter [clears throat] that you can put  
55:32
55 minutes, 32 seconds
in a structure in a branching structure where  the spider will see a a prey, an insect that  
55:41
55 minutes, 41 seconds
it wants [clears throat] to capture in another  part of the tree. But once they come down, they  
55:50
55 minutes, 50 seconds
cannot see it anymore. So you make the structure  so complex that you think the spiny little spider  
56:00
56 minutes
can't possibly remember the branching and so on.  Well, it does. It will go down the right branches.  
56:10
56 minutes, 10 seconds
It will not miss the step. It will go kill the  prey and eat it. So when you see [laughter] that  
56:20
56 minutes, 20 seconds
you know you you look at you know it it is at a  scale that we have not approached yet you know and  
56:29
56 minutes, 29 seconds
so we don't have the instruments we don't have the  tools. So that's part of what we need to build.  
56:37
56 minutes, 37 seconds
need to go to the isotopes, you know, we we  need to go to another level and of course  
56:45
56 minutes, 45 seconds
that that starts with biology, you know,  and and and with very very fine chemistry.
56:54
56 minutes, 54 seconds
And if I can contribute to that, uh I'm certainly  not an expert in either of those fields,  
57:00
57 minutes
but I I know people in those fields. I I've  uh in um in my career in venture capital I've  
57:09
57 minutes, 9 seconds
worked with a number all of it was in science  investments in science. So I've been in in  
57:17
57 minutes, 17 seconds
some pretty interesting places where we were  successful in working with the teams in building  
57:25
57 minutes, 25 seconds
an enterprise not just doing an experiment.  I mean doing experiment is is interesting  
57:32
57 minutes, 32 seconds
but can the experiment turn into a product and  can that product or other products turned into  
57:39
57 minutes, 39 seconds
an enterprise on the street you know on NASDAQ  we've done that okay in the process you learn  
57:49
57 minutes, 49 seconds
a lot about what works and what doesn't work and  that's most my professional life has been there  
57:58
57 minutes, 58 seconds
hasn't been in the lab somewhere. Okay. [clears  throat] Or on the computers somewhere. Okay. So,  
Chapter 9: Building the Next Generation of UFO Research
58:06
58 minutes, 6 seconds
um but it uses labs and computers. So, to build  something, not not just to demonstrate something,  
58:16
58 minutes, 16 seconds
but to build it. So I think that's what  I'm trying to that's what the discipline  
58:26
58 minutes, 26 seconds
where that I can apply to to help if there is a  next step in that research you know is have you  
58:33
58 minutes, 33 seconds
thought of this have you thought of that and  just how much money is it going to take and  
58:38
58 minutes, 38 seconds
where where do you want to go find it you know I  mean those are the questions now yeah yeah it's  
58:47
58 minutes, 47 seconds
you're Right. Yeah. It's a finding the right  tools and using all the different, you know,  
58:53
58 minutes, 53 seconds
perspectives to to really formulate what comes  next instead of one compartmentalized kind of  
59:01
59 minutes, 1 second
way of thinking over here and one over here.  I I'd love to ask you, Jacques, in terms of  
59:07
59 minutes, 7 seconds
um with Forbidden Science 7, the final report,  what is kind of that final thing you want to get  
59:16
59 minutes, 16 seconds
out to readers of the book, younger, the younger  generation that just might be getting into this  
59:23
59 minutes, 23 seconds
topic or folks like myself who've been studying it  for 30 plus years, folks like yourself who've been  
59:30
59 minutes, 30 seconds
studying it for much longer. What is the message  of the final report in your own words? You know,  
59:38
59 minutes, 38 seconds
it's not a big library book, you know, it's it's  a focused book for people who really want to study  
59:50
59 minutes, 50 seconds
the the field. It's a report from one person who's  been in the field a long time. I've met many of  
59:58
59 minutes, 58 seconds
the actors, not all of them by any means, but I've  I've been in a lot of places. So, um it's it um it  
1:00:12
1 hour, 12 seconds
doesn't read like a novel or it doesn't read like  an argument, you know, that you should do this  
1:00:18
1 hour, 18 seconds
or you should do that. It's a it's a journal and  journals are difficult to read because people say  
1:00:28
1 hour, 28 seconds
well you know on Tuesday you say you think that  you should do this and then on Friday you've given  
1:00:35
1 hour, 35 seconds
that up and you're off to Italy [laughter] to talk  to somebody and you know that people say it's a  
1:00:43
1 hour, 43 seconds
whiplash you know that I thought you were going  to pursue this thing and then you drop it. Well,  
1:00:49
1 hour, 49 seconds
you know, I'm sorry. That's life. You know, that's  life. This one didn't turn out to be interesting.  
1:00:56
1 hour, 56 seconds
So, I I went to the one that where I could get  something. So, the this is not a novel. It's not  
1:01:09
1 hour, 1 minute, 9 seconds
an argument like most UFO books. So the the the  people who really I think you know like those  
1:01:23
1 hour, 1 minute, 23 seconds
books are the people in intelligence because they  will read it once through you know in a few hours  
1:01:31
1 hour, 1 minute, 31 seconds
and then they will go back and then they will go  back with a with a pencil number two pencil and  
1:01:40
1 hour, 1 minute, 40 seconds
and with with little pieces of paper and I've seen  I've been in places where uh they wanted to talk  
1:01:50
1 hour, 1 minute, 50 seconds
to me and they had all seven [clears throat]  with little bits of paper sticking out of all  
1:01:59
1 hour, 1 minute, 59 seconds
seven of them [clears throat] and we went through  the whole thing. They said they're on page 123 in  
1:02:06
1 hour, 2 minutes, 6 seconds
volume five. You said you met this person. Who was  that person? Why did you want to meet them? What  
1:02:13
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happened to them afterwards? You know, what did  they have to say? Where did that lead you? Why,  
1:02:20
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you know, and that that's why I I I  write this. I mean, this is going to
1:02:30
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if when when somebody really wants to and  I I think people should go into this with  
1:02:37
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enthusiasm and, you know, the Silicon Valley  way, you know, break it as soon as you can,  
1:02:43
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you know, take your toy, break the toy,  go buy another one, break it, you know,  
1:02:48
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until you get what what the toy does and  then you build the ultimate toy. Okay,  
1:02:54
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that's Silicon Valley. Okay, here in France, if  you you they give you something, you break it,  
1:03:01
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you're fired. I mean, you're a bad engineer. Yeah.  Yeah. Good engineer in Silicon Valley says, "Oh,  
1:03:09
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you know, I broke this thing, you know, when I  was 12, you know, and I learned and this is what  
1:03:15
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I learned, right? And this is why you know the  guy at Apple who designs the next chip. Okay. So  
1:03:26
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I think that's that's the the the culture where  I'm writing. I'm writing for that culture. Now  
1:03:37
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uh right now it's probably not very useful. I  think it will prove more and more useful as time  
1:03:44
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goes on because people will fail and then they'll  wonder [clears throat] has anybody else tried this  
1:03:53
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and then they'll go back and they'll find that  yes I mean there have been five labs where this  
Chapter 10: The Message Behind Forbidden Science Vol. 7
1:04:01
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was tried and it didn't work or [snorts] you  know how do we know what the Germans were doing  
1:04:07
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in World War II? How do we really know? Where  are the Germans now? Where are the sons and  
1:04:15
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grandsons of those Germans? Are they engineers?  You know, what about the Russians? You know,  
1:04:23
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what do they know? So, I I see I've gone to Russia  six times, you know. The first time was when I was  
1:04:34
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just finishing my PhD at Northwestern and there  was a meeting of the I was part of a mathematical  
1:04:42
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association in the US, the American mathematical,  you know, society and there was a math mathematics  
1:04:54
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congress that year was in Moscow and uh so I  thought that's an opportunity to go see and they  
1:05:03
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said for the first time we're going to open up  the labs where we have our computers and you can  
1:05:09
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you'll see our computers they wanted to attract  you know westerners to Moscow you know for the the  
1:05:17
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thing this was still the USSR and um I went there  as part of American delegation of mathematics  
1:05:29
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And um I met the astronomers there which was very  interesting and I did see their computers which  
1:05:37
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were not not very interesting but I also engaged  in contacts with people who knew of my interest in  
1:05:47
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UFOs and we could talk about UFOs there. Um there  were periods when it was essentially forbidden,  
1:05:56
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you know, the subject was just crushed and there  were times where it was open and it was just the  
1:06:03
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political things, you know, uh George Knapp went  there fairly, you know, a few years ago in a  
1:06:11
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period which was pretty open, you know, uh I went  there during Paris Striker, you know, all where  
1:06:19
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everything was open because I didn't know what  was closed, you know. [laughter] Yeah. I mean,  
1:06:25
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we [clears throat] went to incredible places that  had been closed for a long, long time. Um, so I  
1:06:33
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uh I I had, you know, we had also business joint  investments with with some groups in London who  
1:06:43
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worked with Russia. So we we went to do some  checking in Russia to meet the people in the  
1:06:49
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labs as well. So we we had that experience all  along. Well, if you want to know what's going  
1:06:59
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on in Russia, you don't read I mean you should  read their official reports. There are many.  
1:07:06
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They publish widely. They publish fairly openly,  you know, in in aerospace and everything else.  
1:07:14
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They don't publish of course any classified stuff  but they publish on technology and um they also  
1:07:25
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publish about UFOs. They when I was there there  were three official teams including one from the  
1:07:32
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academy that we met that was funded to study  UFOs. I've I've published a book in English  
1:07:41
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about that in New York. Um so um but then if you  really want to know where they are intellectually,  
1:07:56
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you have to read the Samistat. The sum is that  were the forbidden publication that circulated  
1:08:04
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usually on Romeo. You know, they were they were  run on, you know, somebody would type something  
1:08:11
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on their little machine and then they would make  you carbon copies. Yeah. And they would give the  
1:08:18
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carbon copies and somebody would rephograph it  or retype it. And I had published a book called  
1:08:27
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Passport to Maggonia. Well, when I went during the  uh year the year 20,000 years when I was there,  
1:08:38
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we had dinner at somebody's home in Moscow and  there was a guy there who said, "Oh, I have a book  
1:08:48
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called Comments on Passport to Mangonia." There  was a guy who had written a book that was a Samis  
1:08:55
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that commenting on my book in Russia. So I said,  "Can I have a copy?" And they [laughter] gave me  
1:09:03
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a copy. I still have it. I I don't read Russian  very well. If you give me a dictionary, I can  
1:09:11
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probably translate one page, you know, if it's if  it's ordinary Russian, I can translate one page in  
1:09:19
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in an hour, maybe. But that's that's all I can do.  I I had a an astronomy professor in France who was  
1:09:29
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from a Russian family was they were white Russians  who fled Russia during the revolution. So they  
1:09:37
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came to France but he was still teaching us. If we  wanted, he would teach us some scientific Russian  
1:09:46
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because the the Russian science publications are  very good, especially their tables of physics and  
1:09:54
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so on. Well, are perfect. There are no mistakes  whatsoever because they, you know, it's cheap for  
Chapter 11: Russia, Secret Research, and Roadside Picnic
1:10:01
1 hour, 10 minutes, 1 second
them to prove everything. And so uh there are many  um uh labs in in the US where you'll find a a a  
1:10:14
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Russian table uh the Russian book of numerical  tables because those are you know sort of the  
1:10:23
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standard of quality of of physics constants. So um  those are the things you learn when you go there  
1:10:32
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you know that you don't expect to learn right  so um the s is that uh there are two brothers  
1:10:46
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u who who've written a couple of books um one of  the books is called um the picnic roadside side  
1:10:58
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picnic and it's very very interesting. It's was  written 30 years ago. Um it's in it happens in  
1:11:08
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Kansas, not in Russia. It happens in Kansas. So  they are safe with you know the right uh I think  
1:11:18
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initially it was a samistat and then it became an  of you know an open publication because it was a  
1:11:24
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novel and they it became very popular but somehow  people don't know it very well it it's it's known  
1:11:34
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in science fiction in the US but you know not  not very much. [snorts] Uh but this Strogatski  
1:11:42
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brothers, two brothers. Um it happens in Kansas  where a UFO has landed. The occupants had a  
1:11:55
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picnic. Then they got back on their spaceship  and they left. So there is no UFO in the book,  
1:12:04
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but there is everything. They left the artifacts  and of course the Canadian army has put a big  
1:12:16
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fence with electric fence around the artifacts  and you can't go there. Uh, and the artifacts  
1:12:25
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is all the secrets, anti-gravity, you  know, everything you can think of,
1:12:33
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time travel, all of that. Can Can I ask you Yes.  Sorry, Jacques. Can I ask you because this kind  
1:12:41
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of relates to that and and I have I do own that  book, so I'm so happy that you brought it up. Um,  
1:12:50
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it it's so good. So good. Um the  artifacts in Forbidden Science 7,  
1:12:55
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you do bring up this idea of artifacts,  gifting um that some of these crashes,  
1:13:03
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Trinity Roswell might be a gifting sort  of thing. Do you still believe that to  
1:13:09
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be the case? you know, I mean, in theory, I of  course I can be wrong a thousand ways, but uh
1:13:25
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we know a lot about UFOs. We know a lot, you  know, after all those years. I mean, scientists  
1:13:31
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have looked at all that, you know, [clears throat]  outside of all the, you know, the spy thing and so  
1:13:38
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on and the Pentagon. Scientists have looked at  it in many countries and you know we've compared  
1:13:46
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notes on what we learn and that's what you do  in science. You go see you know your competitor  
1:13:53
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or you go see your colleague and you compare  notes and you try to do things together. Well um
1:14:05
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we we know a lot about the composition. We know  something about the properties. We know somebody  
1:14:14
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who builds something like that. Any mind,  even a machine mind that builds something  
1:14:20
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like that is not going to crash in the desert  somewhere. Okay? Unless they want to. Okay? Now,  
1:14:33
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let's talk about the creatures that are there when  it crashes. the the those creatures breathe the  
1:14:40
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air. I I've been in I've been at Sakuro. I've been  in Valencol. I've been at Trinity for six years.  
1:14:52
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I've not been in, you know, in in Brazil at that,  you know, at that at Virginia, but I've I've,  
1:15:03
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you know, I've talked to people who had been there  and and especially to the people who made the  
1:15:09
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film. So the the objects are not sources. In every  case, the object looks like my mouse. You know,  
1:15:21
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it looks like this. Okay. It's an avocado. The,  you know, in New Mexico, you speak Spanish, so you  
1:15:30
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call it an avocado because one end is bigger than  than the other end. Okay. Right. Well, uh, did you  
1:15:41
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lose me or uh, nope. Still here? Okay. Okay.  I have something on my screen. [laughter] The
1:15:51
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beings are not aliens. They are small humanoids.  They are about the size of the kids and you know  
1:16:01
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in Trinity. They um they don't wear any anything  special to breathe. You know they breathe nor air  
1:16:11
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normally. They have two eyes. The kids who are  our witnesses in Trinity spent a lot of time,  
1:16:21
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you know, in front of them. They thought they  could communicate. They thought they could  
1:16:26
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see the emotions on the faces of the creatures.  They were like like them. They were little kids,  
1:16:34
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you know. They were the same size. The the two  witnesses were nine and seven, and that was about  
1:16:41
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the size. Yeah. Uh they had two arms, two legs.  What kind of alien is that? Right? Can you explain  
1:16:51
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to me which planet? You know, when our astronauts  walk on the moon, they don't walk normally on the  
1:16:58
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moon. They don't breathe normally on the moon. So  you're telling me these guys come from the end of  
Chapter 12: Were UFO Crashes Deliberate Gifts to Humanity?
1:17:06
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the universe and they come here and they crash,  you know, at at the Trinity site of all places,  
1:17:15
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right? In the tower that runs the communication  for the Trinity atomic site. And then people tell  
1:17:25
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me, "No, no, no. The kids were telling stories  and so on." Well, the kids were not telling  
1:17:30
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stories because everybody there had been told if  if you see something, you say nothing. And that  
1:17:40
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was Trinity. And then they say, you know, people  here in France have criticized this and they say,  
1:17:48
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you know, it's not in the Pentagon files, the  the Trinity case. It it's not in the NASA files.  
1:17:57
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It's not the well, you know, I I'm sorry, but  it's not in the Air Force fight. The Air Force was  
1:18:05
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created in 47. This was 1945, right? This brings  a whole thing two years before, you know, this  
1:18:14
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isn't I mean Roswell, you know, Roswell, CIA, I  mean, whatever. But the Trinity was before Trinity  
1:18:25
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was on the land of the uh atomic bomb project run  by the Department of Energy. And today the files  
1:18:37
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about Trinity are in the custody of the Department  of Energy, not the Pentagon, not NASA. Why should  
1:18:46
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it be there? Right? This was a This site,  the Trinity site had a fence, but it extended  
1:18:55
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around the fence. [clears throat] The tower, the  communication tower was was outside the fence of  
1:19:04
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of the the atomic range itself where they blew up  the bomb, but you're just 20 miles away from it.  
1:19:14
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So yeah, um we learned a lot there, some of which  we are not publishing, but we we we learned a lot  
1:19:23
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there about the conditions at the time. Why they  kept quiet? Why the information still some of the  
1:19:34
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information has not come out from within those  families and so on. We've gone back and we found  
1:19:41
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other witnesses. When when people say, "Well, you  only have two kids." That's not true. And we found  
1:19:47
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other witnesses who were adults who knew about  what was going on there and and we've recovered,  
1:19:55
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you know, what what they saw. So, um that's  the first postwar case in the US. Okay.  
1:20:07
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Uh so we now have one two three four five cases  where the object was essentially egg shaped or  
1:20:20
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oval not a disc. Of course when people publish it  in the newspaper they always draw a disc because  
1:20:28
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that has to be a flying saucer. Right. Right.  It's not a flying saucer. It's not an alien.  
1:20:35
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It It's a humanoid. Yeah. It brings air and is  adapted to gravity on Earth. Yeah. So So it may  
1:20:45
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be an artificial humanoid that the aliens created  to pilot the sauces. That could be something else.  
1:20:55
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Okay. Interesting. That's something we should  look at at some point. What should be? And I  
1:21:01
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think the crashes were deliberate, you know,  to send a signal to to seed something. Now,  
1:21:11
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why do we why do we like uh civilian cases and  not, you know, official cases? What you can't  
1:21:22
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trust the official cases. and um at Sakuro which I  know well because I was helping Dr. Heinneck when  
1:21:32
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he was at Soro and we we were at Northwestern  together Northwestern University and we had  
1:21:41
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a team to study everything he was bringing back  from Soro. Well, [snorts] um, [laughter] he was  
1:21:51
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there with a a scientist who was an amateur who  gathered up some some pieces of resid, you know,  
1:22:02
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residue that he picked up at the site and he  turned it over to NASA. There were people at NKAP  
1:22:12
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in the UFO group night who knew people at NASA  could do analysis. So they said look you you have  
1:22:20
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this but you can't analyze it because you know you  don't have the machines and so on. So why don't  
1:22:26
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we turn it over to NASA because we know people at  NASA who want to analyze it. So they they went to  
1:22:33
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NASA and the idea was they were go there was some  some material and then there was some coating on  
1:22:42
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that material that had been scratched by the leg  of the Soro object. By the way, we know the mass  
1:22:52
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of all those things. We've computed the mass  because all of them had traces and we measured  
1:22:57
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the traces. Okay? We we I mean I I didn't but we I  gathered all the documents and I reconstructed the  
Chapter 13: The Trinity UFO Crash and Humanoid Beings
1:23:07
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mass you know from all those documents including  Soro including Valencol I know Valencil very  
1:23:15
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well spent three days there with the witness  at the site. Okay. Yeah. and and through the  
1:23:23
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the French government, I had access to the files  of their um investigation. There were five French  
1:23:33
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official investigations. All of them concluded  that it was unidentified. The government,  
1:23:41
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it was the government that did an investigation.  Okay. Not not eupfologist although eupfologists  
1:23:47
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are just as good but but the government is  official. I mean they sign the thing. Okay.  
1:23:53
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They spend money. Um same thing in Sakuro. It was  Soro was an official you know was air force. The  
1:24:04
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the FBI was there but had no jurisdiction but the  FBI had preserved the traces there the FBI way.  
1:24:13
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Okay. I mean the local local cops would have been  overrun by crowds and so on. So the FBI made sure  
1:24:21
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the traces thing, you know, were preserved.  Yeah. Which is what Heinek used. Well, so he's  
1:24:31
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at at NASA in near Washington with his samples  and they they agreed not to destroy the sample,  
1:24:43
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okay? To return it to him. So the chemist takes  this in the lab and they say, "Why don't you go  
1:24:50
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have lunch?" So the two nightup guys go have lunch  with the, you know, the the guy who brought them  
1:24:59
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the samples, the two samples that he had done  a preliminary analysis and it showed some very  
1:25:07
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strange combinations of elements chemically. He  didn't do an isotrope analysis, but he did the  
1:25:14
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chemical analysis. So he knew the composition. And  after lunch, uh the guy from NASA gives him back  
1:25:27
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the um the guy from NASA says uh we can't give  you back the thing because um you know there was  
1:25:42
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a little accident and we we destroyed all the  the superficial thing. So, but we can tell you,  
1:25:51
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we'll be able to tell you what it is. So, uh he  waits, you know, waits and waits and waits, keeps  
1:26:01
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calling and calling and calling NASA, everybody  else gets, you know, brushed off every time. This  
1:26:09
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is a guy who brought them, you know, thing from  the site that nobody else had. Uh and then finally  
1:26:20
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the guy comes on the phone and says look um  [clears throat] you know it was just an ordinary  
1:26:27
1 hour, 26 minutes, 27 seconds
uh some some ordinary element you know some some  piece of stone. Yeah. He knew [clears throat] it  
1:26:36
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wasn't true. Okay. Later on, he knows somebody who  works at the CIA, uh, who is close to his family  
1:26:48
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and she tells him that she came out of, you know,  she was in the corridor at the CIA and two guys  
1:26:56
1 hour, 26 minutes, 56 seconds
came out of an office and they say, "Oh, you know,  we've we've redone that analysis from Sakuro,  
1:27:04
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you know, and it's really interesting and  he thinks it ended up at CIA. So NASA was  
1:27:15
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a conduit. The CIA went to NASA. They say,  "Look, we're taking over from here." You know,  
1:27:21
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tell the guy the thing was destroyed. The analysis  didn't work. Scrape everything in it to us. Now,  
1:27:30
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now you're asking, we're going to ask the public  to trust or the governor is going to tell us what  
1:27:37
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the intelligence community is going to reveal.  Yeah. Maybe if we can have a chain of evidence.
1:27:51
1 hour, 27 minutes, 51 seconds
If there is no chain of evidence, that's anything  you can think of. You know, something to fool the  
1:27:57
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Russians, something to fool the Chinese, something  to fool us. I mean, who knows who are these guys?  
Chapter 14: Socorro, Missing Evidence, and Government Secrecy
1:28:04
1 hour, 28 minutes, 4 seconds
Who is doing what with what instrument? Where did  it come from? Do you do you do you know can I can  
1:28:12
1 hour, 28 minutes, 12 seconds
you prove to me that this was my, you know, my  sample? Yeah. So, we're going to be it's going to  
1:28:21
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be complicated and and the military environment is  going to be complicated because let's um you know,  
1:28:31
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we've gone for a long time. Let me tell you one  more thing. Sure. The pictures of the Nimmits,  
1:28:37
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they've been on New York Times first page, first  page of every newspaper. Every time there is an  
1:28:45
1 hour, 28 minutes, 45 seconds
interview of anybody about UFOs, it starts with  the Nimits pictures. There's a memo that I have  
1:28:53
1 hour, 28 minutes, 53 seconds
seen when we when we worked, you know, at at at  NIDS and at Bass, we knew about it because one  
1:29:03
1 hour, 29 minutes, 3 seconds
of the people on the staff was one of the pilots  and he had security clearances above the pilots  
1:29:12
1 hour, 29 minutes, 12 seconds
who testified. Okay. He never testified. Uh we  so we know you know a little bit about that.  
1:29:23
1 hour, 29 minutes, 23 seconds
So there was a memo from Rafael to the um to the  Navy which is a perfect memo. It's just written  
1:29:40
1 hour, 29 minutes, 40 seconds
very well. It's very clear. It has a bit of humor  in the background, but it's not joking. It says,  
1:29:52
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"Look, uh, we see pictures that are, you  know, of what they recorded, you know,  
1:30:01
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on the F-18s over the Nimits from the Nimmits. Uh,  we sold you that camera. Rif sold you that camera.
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It's not a camera. It's It's a It's an instrument  that it's a big instrument that records infrared  
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images. It, you know, digital images in the  infrared. It's it's it's not a Kodak, you know,  
1:30:34
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camera. Uh you make it the newspapers make it  look like it was a picture. It's not a picture.  
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In in the specifications you gave us, when you  gave us the order to build that camera for you,  
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for the Navy, you said you wanted to be able  to detect the temperature of the exhaust of an  
1:31:01
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enemy aircraft in combat. That's what it does.  That's why it's black. And that's why there is  
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a spot that's sort of an oval spot. That's not  a picture. It's an infrared image of of a source  
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of heat. By that you can tell, you know, if the  guy is, you know, a United 301 heavy, you know,  
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going to New York, uh, it lost communication. So,  you know, you wave at the guy and you let him go.  
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uh or it's a MIG. If it's a MIG, you're going to  do something different. You can tell by looking  
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at that picture. Period. [clears throat] Now, if  you want us to build something that will detect  
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flying sauces and take images of flying sauces,  we maybe we can do that, but you'll have to give  
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us the specifications and we'll tell you what  the budget is going to be. Yeah, that memo is  
Chapter 15: The Nimitz UFO Footage and Raytheon's Warning
1:32:05
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perfect. I think it should be framed somewhere.  It's it's a wonderful old business. Okay,  
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this is what we did. The newspapers are lying  about what it is because they don't get the,  
1:32:19
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you know, the electronics. But that's okay. But if  you want us to detect UFOs, we can and you tell us  
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what UFOs are, we probably can build something for  you. [laughter] Interesting. So Rathon didn't take  
1:32:36
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responsibility for the tic tac. There's somebody  with a sense of humor at RAON who's very in  
1:32:42
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electronics. Yeah, I love it. I love it. Yes, we  should frame that, Chuck. Well, hey, look, I kept  
1:32:49
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you way longer than I told you, so we'll have to  do this again with some of our listener questions,  
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but this has been incredible. Incredible. It's  always an honor to have you on. We will link to  
1:33:02
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the book, the brand new volume in our show notes  so people can go read that. And again, there it is  
1:33:10
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right there, guys. He's showing it on the screen  if you're watching this. Again, I was so honored  
1:33:15
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that you actually uh featured me in there. That  was quite a surprise. So, I want to thank you  
1:33:21
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for that. And I know your work is not over. This  may be the final report, but this is definitely  
1:33:28
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not the last we have heard from Jacques Falet.  So, thank you once again for coming on summer.