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Skies podcast. Anomicon unites unique voices from  academia, science, and entertainment. Join us for  
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discussions on UFOs, the paranormal, cryptids,  conspiracy theories, and all things anomalous.  
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Somewhere in the Skies YouTube channel or visit  anomacon.com to learn more. Once again, that's  
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anomacon.com. Anomacon, getting to the heart  of life's mysteries, one discussion at a time.
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[Music] Spectre Vision Radio. [Music] On November  5th, 1975, Travis Walton, a 22-year-old logger,  
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was working with a crew in the Apache Sitgraves  National Forest near Snowflake, Arizona.  
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As the logging crew drove home at dusk, they  spotted a glowing discshaped object hovering  
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above a clearing. Travis got out of the truck  and approached the object. According to the other  
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crew members, a beam of light struck Travis,  violently propelling him backwards. The crew,  
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fearing he was seriously injured or even worse  dead, fled in a panic. After some discussion,  
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they decided to return shortly after, but Travis  was nowhere to be found. A massive search did  
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follow, but again, there was no trace of Travis  anywhere. Authorities suspected foul play,  
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but the crew stuck to their story and passed  multiple polygraph tests to prove it. And then  
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5 days later, Travis Walton reappeared. He was  disoriented and confused and he claimed to have  
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been taken aboard an alien spacecraft where he  encountered humanoid and nonhuman entities. His  
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story shook an entire town, the UFO community  as a whole, and it triggered national attention  
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and controversy. Over the decades, the incident  has become one of the most famous alleged alien  
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abduction cases ever recorded, sparking books,  documentaries, and even the iconic film Fire in  
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the Sky. To this day, the truth behind the Travis  Walton incident remains fiercely debated. Today,  
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we speak with the man at the center of it all,  Travis Walton. Featuring documentary filmmaker  
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Jennifer Stein, we examine the evidence, the  explanations brought forward by skeptics,  
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and a deeper look at the profound impact this  event has had on Travis over 50 years later.
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While our government's official position is not  to speculate on this subject, we can choose to  
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let our minds explore other possibilities to use  our imaginations. For if we consider that astro  
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scientists agree on one point that the possibility  of life elsewhere is not only quite probable,  
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some feel it is there without a doubt.  Let us suppose then that these objects  
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are real space vehicles. extraterrestrial  origin and not an illusion of the mind.
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[Music]
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I'm Ryan Spre and you are  now somewhere in the skies.
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Welcome to a very special episode of Somewhere in  the Skies. And I can't believe I'm saying this,  
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but for the very first time, we have special guest  Travis Walton joining us along with return guest  
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Jennifer Stein. And it has been 50 years since  Travis's experience. And I I can't believe that  
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this is the first time I'm actually going to  get to talk to you, Travis. uh on the show. So,   I'm honored to have both of you here with us  today. We're going to talk about your film,  
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Jennifer. We're going to talk about the upcoming  event that you're both going to be speaking at and  
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kind of just get this retrospective of 50 years  since the 1975 event that uh ushered in all of  
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this. So, thank you. Thank you for being here on  Summer in the Skies, Jennifer and Travis. Thanks   for having us. Now, Travis, I know you have  answered this question a million times. You're  
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probably sick of it, but you probably got it down  to a tea. For our our viewers or listeners who may  
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not be familiar with your story, which I I have  no idea how that could be possible, but um for  
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anyone who hasn't, can you kind of run us through  the event of 1975 in your own words? 1975, I was  
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working in the forest with six other men and uh we  completed a long hard day's work. were headed home  
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uh and uh encountered a large glowing object  near the road. I got out to get a closer look and  
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uh was struck by a blast of energy from the craft  and uh my my crew mates uh reasonably fled in  
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terror and uh I woke up on board the craft. Um uh  I was um missing for over 5 days, massive search  
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in the area and u um it was quite an ordeal  but u after you know a period of time I was  
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actually able to talk about it which up until then  I hadn't even talked to those closest to me about  
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No. Okay. So, you know, a lot of us, Travis, we  have this um we have this interpretation of your  
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story through the movie Fire in the Sky. I know  for many that was their introduction to it. And  
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I know that the actual event differs greatly from  what we saw in that Hollywood version of it. Uh  
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and that's where kind of Jennifer comes into  this. I had the pleasure of seeing the first  
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ever screening, I believe, of your film, Travis,  the true story of Travis Walton in New York City,  
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Jennifer. So, how did you get involved with Travis  and how did the idea for this documentary come to  
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be? Well, um, I was honored to meet Travis at the  Roswell UFO conference that happens every year in  
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Roswell. In 2010, he was there speaking and I was  functioning as an assistant with our good friend  
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Peter Robbins and Peter and I had dinner with  Travis and Ruben Udiarte and a couple of other  
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people and we said to Travis, "How come you know  Snowflake Keeper and uh the Hullbrook area aren't,  
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you know, how come you're not running a conference  up there? Your story is is as significant as the  
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Rodwell story really." And you know, it'd be  a great idea to have a like a 40th anniversary  
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conference because at this point it was the 35th  anniversary. 2010 was five years before that. So  
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I kind of got involved in the back door helping uh  Travis kind of as a coach plan a conference which  
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he did. He did a 39th and a 40th anniversary  conference in the Heber snowflake area. And  
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um Travis will laugh about this. His idea was to  take people into the forest at night. And as a  
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former event coordinator and conference planner,  I was like panicked at that idea. I was like,   "Oh my god, you know, there's lions and tigers  and bears, you know, in the forest at night."  
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You know, like that maybe that's not a good  idea. It's a 45minute hike from the nearest,   you know, dirt road. People could get lost or  trip or fall or, you know, what happens when  
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they need to use the bathroom and it's going to  be cold and there could be snow on the ground. So,   I started filming all the crew members kind of  thinking that at the conference we'd show them all  
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on the big screen and people would have a virtual  experience. And after doing that and then filming  
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some other experts as well, I realized that if I  was able to get Marlon Gillespie, Chuck Ellison,  
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and Sai Gillson on film, I'd have a pretty decent  documentary and nobody bothered to do one. So,  
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I kind of got the sheriff's officers. Yeah, those  were the police officers, the main people involved  
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in the case. So, with a little bit of digging,  uh, and with Travis's great help and support,  
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I think after I gained Travis's trust, we embarked  on actually doing more than just a conference,  
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but actually doing a documentary that would help  promote the conference. So by 2015 I had put  
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together a decent documentary and I launched it  in a couple of film festivals in including the one  
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you were at the Richard uh K. Dick is it called in  or Philip Philip K. Dick Philip Kick in New York  
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City because at that point I was a Pennsylvania  resident lived in Pennsylvania and New York City   wasn't far. So I enlisted it got accepted in the  film festival and came up there and screened it  
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along with Open Minds Film Festival and things  like that. So I actually had to end up remaking  
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the film as many filmmakers do because of a rights  issue. So I came out with a newer version in  
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200 end of 2017 into 2018 and we called that the  45th anniversary uh production. So Oh interesting  
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two versions out there you know. Okay. Gotcha.  Gotcha. I remember after the film a young couple,  
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they had to be in their 20s, um, from like  Brooklyn sitting in front of me and they were  
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astounded. I mean, they had never heard of the  case, the the evidence you brought forward, uh,  
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the unbelievable vulnerable testimonies of both  Travis, the other loggers, and, you know, the law  
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enforcement that got involved, the UFO researchers  you interviewed. It just painted this this picture  
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of one of the most iconic UFO abduction cases of  all time with Travis. And it was so refreshing  
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to see younger people taking this topic seriously.  And h I will never forget that day. Um but Travis,  
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speaking of never forgetting, now 50 years have  passed. I'm sure in that time, in that journey, I  
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mean, you've seen it all, man. You've been through  the slings and arrows of debunkers, skeptics,  
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believers, and um everyone in between giving their  own thoughts and opinions on what happened to you,  
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you know, and I'd love to know what 50 years  later, what part of your story sticks with you  
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the most? Is there any part of the experience  that really, you know, just never leaves your  
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mind? I would assume all of it, but anything come  to mind right now from your gut of that day? Well,  
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obviously, you know, when my vision finally  cleared to where I could see these uh persons  
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standing over me were not doctors but were alien  beings. That was a shock that, you know, uh to  
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this day still affects me. Yeah. I reinterpreted  the whole thing. I had time to think it over and  
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um recategorize everything. But nevertheless, what  I felt at that moment is just something that'll  
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never go away. Recatategorizing. Now I know  in the past, you know, several years, you have  
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kind of looked at your incident in a different  light when it comes to after the beam hit you,  
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the beam of energy hit you and you were taken  aboard the craft, something you would eventually  
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uh sort of coin a rescue mission of sorts. Would  you mind maybe sort of elaborating on that aspect?  
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Well, initially, you know, being hit by this  blast of energy, uh uh I thought initially that  
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it was a weapon being fired at me for for getting  too close. But realistically, uh they could not  
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possibly have seen me as a threat. But um the  uh the term abduction uh I think isn't isn't  
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warranted because um if if covering up their  appearance there was a part of the deal they  
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could have just uh disappeared and u but you know  if if I was killed if I was laying there then then  
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the charge of murder on my uh cowork workers would  have stuck. Um, it it wasn't an attack. I think it  
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was an accident thinking that there was some kind  of a electrical energy discharge from that craft  
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at the instant I closed the distance too greatly  between me and it uh probably led to a a discharge  
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of energy that wasn't planned, wasn't intended,  and probably could have possibly even been fatal.  
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But um they could have taken my body and dumped  me on some asteroid somewhere, disappeared me and  
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covered up their presence much more effectively,  but they not only took me and I think with  
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superior technology where we have to revive me.  um but also um took me to where I could get help  
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at at the town nearest where this happened. Yeah,  I I I do see that as you know these beings quote  
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unquote uh were there to help you after realizing  what they had done. Um and I know there were there  
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were different types of beings on the craft,  right? Two different types. Yeah. You had the,   you know, sort of the, uh, quote unquote  prototypical grays or or, you know, like  
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that. And then you had these humanoids as well.  That's correct. Right. Well, I I was combative.   I was fighting them. And there was no way they  were going to be able to do anything to to heal me  
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or revive me as long as I was fighting them. And  apparently they were unable to um use any kind of  
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mind control or mental uh uh telepathy or anything  like that to communicate reassuring messages.  
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So um I was instantly reassured uh by the  presence of a human-looking individual  
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um and it was instantly cooperative and uh that  was the only only thing I can think that that that  
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would be necessary that they would uh enlist  the help of this being if that's if it was a  
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Now, some people think it was a um some kind of  an illusion or some kind of a robot, whatever.  
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It was something that I think they brought that  I would cooperate with were able they were then  
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able to uh get me under sedation and um do the  repairs that were necessary. That's fair. Uh,  
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I'm going to throw it over to Suzanne in just a  moment here, Travis, but I'd like to ask you, why  
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do you think the craft was originally there? Have  you ever kind of gone through that and why you  
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think it might have originally been in the forest  to begin with? Well, I speculate that it was had  
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something to do with something that was discovered  much later. that part of the Moan Rim there  
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uh has the highest frequency of lightning strikes  of any place in the continental United States,  
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second only to the Florida Everglades. And um a  side effect of lightning strikes hitting these  
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trees and damaging a few of them. It's not it  doesn't totally kill the tree. You can you can  
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see examples of this there at the Hebrew Ranger  Station where the tree right in their front yard  
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was hit by lightning. What it does is it blasts  a u a strip of bark down the length of the tree  
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which instantly turns to steam and explodes and  knocks the bark off the tree. But other than that,  
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the tree continues to live. So you're walking down  the rim road there. If you're in sight of one tree  
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that's been hit by lightning, you can are probably  within sight of the next one. So, it's a it's a  
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kind of a phenomenon that may have contributed  to the reason the craft had such a um charge  
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that would discharge to the ground through me. But  going beyond that, the effects of uh the presence  
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of the craft perhaps um they were in search of  something that's formed when lightning strikes  
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the ground. It forms a mineral uh crystal called  foburite. extremely rare and maybe uh something  
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that even the aliens couldn't uh u build in a  lab. But if they were there harvesting fogurite,  
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uh maybe that's why they were there. Something  when when when lightning strikes the ground,  
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it forms these um crystals and bizarre formations  that are really amazing. on the Joe Rogan show I  
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mentioned this and his assistant instantly brought  up all these um examples of folure and man the  
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appearance of these things is quite diverse  and um um it's plausible to me that they may  
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have been in search of some of these u um folure  crystals that are um um rare in the rest of the  
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world. That is fascinating. Jennifer, um I know  you have done some research research as well in  
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terms of like this being in close proximity to  other sites where like nuclear tests and stuff  
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were done. Uh did you want to add anything  to that? I I think Travis's point is very   well taken. you know, they they could have  been there looking for some sort of magnetic  
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material because as we know, magnetics are very  important in anti-gravidic uh experiments and  
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things like that. But um it's not too far as  the crow flies from the Trinity test sites and  
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some of the nuclear explosions that were done in  New Mexico um in the salt flats and as you know  
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it's like 50 60 miles to where those test sites  are as the crow flies. So if there was fallout,  
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fallout would happen at one of the highest  possible rims. And the Mogian rim is a rim that  
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extends from northeastern New Mexico or I'm I'm  sorry, northwestern New Mexico into northeastern  
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Arizona and straight on up into Colorado. It's  it's like the largest ponderosa pine forest in  
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the world. And it's a r sits about 7,000 ft high.  So if you're looking for environmental fallout,  
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you might find it. And there was lots of  evidence of many people with cancers, uh,  
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leukemias, things like that in that whole regional  area around Snowflake. I think even Travis's mom  
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may have had some form of cancer. Other members of  his family did. So, they may have been looking for  
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environmental stuff, you know. We really just  don't know. It's speculation, right? Wow. You   know, and I'm just thinking now of the lightning  thing, Travis. I mean, a lot of people do theorize  
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that the Roswell craft came down because it was  possibly struck by lightning. So, there's got to  
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be something between these these minerals, the  lightning. I don't know. That's fascinating. Um,   thank you. Thank you for that. Uh, Suzanne,  I'd love to throw it over to you. I know you  
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have some very unique questions that I would never  have uh even thought to ask Travis and Jennifer,  
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so I'll let you take it from here. Sure. Travis  and Jennifer, thanks so much for being here.  
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Travis, I have a couple of questions about your  actual experience and then I have some questions   about afterwards and the aftermath. I would love  for you to describe for our listeners what that  
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beam of light felt like when it hit you. Well,  I was unconscious just pretty much uh instantly.  
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I working on cars or electricity. I know what  it feels like. An electric shock is like that,  
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but also kind of like uh getting hit by a car  or something. A stunning amount of force and  
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blacked out instantly lost consciousness. Wow.  Well, and my other question around this was once  
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you were on board, if they were not speaking with  you telepathically, were they just talking to you  
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or were they basically silent? What what happened  that way? Well, there was no attempt uh for them  
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to communicate verbally. But if they if it if  their principal communication method is is uh  
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telepathic, then perhaps my injuries being hit  in the head with this blast of energy may have  
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sort of canceled out the ability to uh give me any  sort of reassuring message. And uh you know people  
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recognize that they're telepathic but they don't  understand that this would also imp imply that um  
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facial expression is obsolete with them. So them  sitting stonefaced for me and many other witnesses  
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is is perceived as very threatening. When when  uh we encounter human beings that uh whose face  
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or expression doesn't change, we we we interpret  that as threatening when they could be in very u  
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rich communication between each other but nothing  that it uh necessitates using facial muscles to  
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uh send the message. That makes sense to me. It's  not unlike different cultures here on the planet.  
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When smiley Americans go to France, it they're met  with a very different uh exterior from from the  
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French and they don't mean a thing by it. It's not  a negative. It's just simply different. I wonder  
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if that's what's going on in your experience.  Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I I I experienced that  
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in Germany. Those German people are quite  serious. I'll give I'll tell you that much.  
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So true. Well, Travis, I was also curious to know  if you had any other experiences with NHI or with  
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unusual synchronicities or co coincidences that  really stood out to you after your incident. Um,  
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what what's NHI? Non-human intelligence. Oh, okay.  Yeah. Well, um I I try to stick to experiences  
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that I can document. You know, the fact that I  had uh six other people with me and um also some  
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other people in the area, uh some deer hunters and  some fishermen at the lake there had witnessed the  
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craft departing. Um was, you know, added greatly  to the my willingness to talk publicly about it.  
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Um there was one other incident um where it was  just uh my son and I and a girlfriend returning  
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from a u a talk um in California. Tracy Tormet,  the screenwriter on the movie Fire in the Sky,  
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spoke there and we headed home and um we uh  encountered a gigantic UFO uh just driving down  
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the freeway there. We saw this point of light in  the distance that very quickly became three lights  
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uh impossibly quickly. I mean it it it  went from so far away it was a dot of  
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light to where it was over the top of us with a  light on each of the point of the triangles and  
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uh it stopped impossibly quickly after that kind  of speed turned 90° and then shot off towards the  
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Pacific. Wow. But um this thing was huge. I mean  it could have been a quarter of a mile across and  
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u I would have hesitated to try to relate  something that amazing uh visually if I would  
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um if the three of us were the only ones seeing  it. But um a a a website called ufosttocker.com  
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received over a dozen reports by the next morning  that other people who didn't know us and didn't  
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know each other all reported seeing this thing fly  up there, stop, turn, and shoot off into the into  
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the distance. Wow. Now that was that aliens? I  don't know. I didn't see any beings. But um if it  
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was, it's definitely would explain that technology  that nothing we have could accelerate that fast,  
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stop that fast. Um unless it's something secret  and and our government wanted me to report it as  
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a UFO, but uh that would be something awful. How  do you keep that kind of a thing uh secret? Where  
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are you gonna put something that big? There's no  hanger that big. But um that is probably the most  
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outstanding thing that I can report because there  were so many witnesses. That's pretty outstanding.   But I am so glad you were able to get confirmation  from others about it as well because sometimes  
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that's a lonely feeling to be out there on your  own with no other witnesses. Yeah, absolutely.  
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28 minutes, 31 seconds
Well, I was also curious, did at any time after  your incident, did anyone medically scan you for  
28:38
28 minutes, 38 seconds
implants or other things? Oh, definitely. That  was uh the the top of the top of the line order.  
28:46
28 minutes, 46 seconds
U the night I was returned, uh my brother um said,  "I'm let letting that mob get a hold of this guy."  
28:57
28 minutes, 57 seconds
and he took me to Phoenix and uh he had the help  of the Aerial Phenomena Research Organization,  
29:04
29 minutes, 4 seconds
the premier UFO investigating organization  in the in the uh in the field at the time.  
29:13
29 minutes, 13 seconds
And uh they had arranged uh medical doctors uh  psychiatrists a whole team of experts to examine  
29:22
29 minutes, 22 seconds
me very thoroughly um starting immediately  and the next day um covering everything um  
29:31
29 minutes, 31 seconds
um I had brainwave scans MRI u u what's the  other one EEG yeah on the same uh in the  
29:42
29 minutes, 42 seconds
clinic that Muhammad Ali had been examined in. He  it was in uh um Burrow's neurological institute.  
29:52
29 minutes, 52 seconds
He he he you know he came there but when he  developed neurological problems and and top of the  
29:58
29 minutes, 58 seconds
line the barrels neurological was the place to go.  And um the one anomaly that came up in my brain  
30:07
30 minutes, 7 seconds
wave scan was um uh I'll try to quote it. The  report said um an alternating bicynchronous wave  
30:20
30 minutes, 20 seconds
traveling from front to back. I should get the  actual quote, but the uh the significance of this  
30:26
30 minutes, 26 seconds
is that because of the incredible media scrutiny  and hysteria. Uh the technician did not know who  
30:35
30 minutes, 35 seconds
I was. So he was totally blinded and which is  a good thing in terms of objective measurement.  
30:43
30 minutes, 43 seconds
um to report this unusual brain wave pattern which  in a subsequent follow-up brain wave uh scan had  
30:52
30 minutes, 52 seconds
disappeared. So evidently some residual effect  of my injury that I fully recovered from. Wow.  
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31 minutes, 3 seconds
Wow. Well, um, you mentioned earlier in the  interview that you calmed down after you got,  
31:11
31 minutes, 11 seconds
you know, put back on the planet and that  you got some clarity around your thoughts.  
31:16
31 minutes, 16 seconds
Some experiencers have that process continuing for  them for years where over the years memory expands  
31:25
31 minutes, 25 seconds
and clarifies. Has that happened for you? Yeah.  Well, I try to stick to the things I can document,  
31:33
31 minutes, 33 seconds
but yeah, there were things that came back  and I question to the experts, could this be  
31:38
31 minutes, 38 seconds
um repressed memories coming through or could it  just be the because I'm finally talking about it  
31:45
31 minutes, 45 seconds
after all this time? And I got different replies.  Uh was it repressed memories or not? But it mostly  
31:53
31 minutes, 53 seconds
involved the human type. Really? Can you tell  us more about what became clarified for you? Uh,  
32:01
32 minutes, 1 second
well, these memories that popped up that came  through were disjointed and unclear, and that  
32:08
32 minutes, 8 seconds
was the reason I was questioning. Could this  just be nightmares or or memories of something  
32:14
32 minutes, 14 seconds
that happened that I had supposedly blanked out  from? I see. I have one more question for you. Um,  
32:25
32 minutes, 25 seconds
many high-profile experiencers are the victims of  intimidation tactics by people who clearly seem  
32:34
32 minutes, 34 seconds
to be related to governmental entities such as the  men in black or similar. Have you had any of that?  
32:41
32 minutes, 41 seconds
No. what few um aerospace contacts I've had have  been totally um friendly amateur sort of on the QT  
32:53
32 minutes, 53 seconds
each of them in emphasizing that this was just out  of their own interest. Wow. What do you make of  
33:01
33 minutes, 1 second
that? Why do you think you were not targeted when  others were so viciously targeted? I think it's  
33:07
33 minutes, 7 seconds
really lucky that you weren't. Well, um because I  was highly visible that any such contact would be  
33:14
33 minutes, 14 seconds
um implyi it would imply uh confirmation of  something that was already being attacked. Uh so  
33:24
33 minutes, 24 seconds
they were smart to just leave it alone because uh  there was plenty of work being done to discredit  
33:33
33 minutes, 33 seconds
me. uh that um with the uh I I hate the term  debunkers because they're not removing bunk,  
33:42
33 minutes, 42 seconds
they're creating it. But uh I couldn't agree more.  We went back on my character just coming up with  
33:50
33 minutes, 50 seconds
all kinds of uh ridiculous explanations for what  really happened. That we really would just seeing  
33:58
33 minutes, 58 seconds
a firewatch tower that the Forest Service had  seen or or that it was actually just the planet  
34:05
34 minutes, 5 seconds
Jupiter. Uh there was a number of really bizarre  theories. I came up uh I thought of one the other  
34:12
34 minutes, 12 seconds
day. What was that? I'll I'll think of it before  we get done here. Just absurd explanations for  
34:20
34 minutes, 20 seconds
for what happened. Uh anything to try to explain  it away, right? People will work really hard for  
34:28
34 minutes, 28 seconds
crazy explanations to make it make sense to them.  Well, you know, it's only natural. And you know,  
34:34
34 minutes, 34 seconds
one or two of the crew members eventually,  even though they came out and spoke with me  
34:39
34 minutes, 39 seconds
and testified to what they had witnessed, later  started hungering for some way to explain it away.  
34:46
34 minutes, 46 seconds
It's so much easier to say that the government did  it to us or something like that rather than have  
34:55
34 minutes, 55 seconds
to uh face up to the fears that alien creatures  bring to them. Well, I have one more question  
35:04
35 minutes, 4 seconds
for you and then I'm done. I promise. You have  told your story so many times. We have Jennifer's  
35:11
35 minutes, 11 seconds
documentary. We have YouTube videos with zillions  of details. But that makes this lawyer curious  
35:18
35 minutes, 18 seconds
about the flip of that, which is were there things  that you experienced that you decided just to keep  
35:25
35 minutes, 25 seconds
to yourself? I won't ask you what those are. I  I'll respect um the boundary you set as a human on  
35:32
35 minutes, 32 seconds
that, but I was just curious. Sometimes we hear,  you know, behind the scenes that there are details  
35:38
35 minutes, 38 seconds
that were just not going to be shared. Yeah, I  guess you could say there's things like that.
35:48
35 minutes, 48 seconds
Hey everyone, Ryan Spreg here, host of Somewhere  in the Skies. If you've ever thought about  
35:54
35 minutes, 54 seconds
supporting us, we have great two easy options for  you right now. If you listen to the show on Apple  
36:00
36 minutes
Podcasts, you can click the subscribe button at  the top of your Apple feed, or you can join our  
36:07
36 minutes, 7 seconds
Patreon at patreon.com/omeware skies. Both of  these options give you the same benefits. Early  
36:15
36 minutes, 15 seconds
access to the main show, bonus episodes and  content, and priority to ask our guests your  
36:23
36 minutes, 23 seconds
listener questions. So, to help support somewhere  in the Skies, click that subscribe button on Apple  
36:30
36 minutes, 30 seconds
or visit patreon.com/someware skies. Thank you  so much for your support and keep looking up.
36:47
36 minutes, 47 seconds
Right. Right. Generous with your time today. Thank  you. Yeah. Thank you. Um I wanted to kind of go  
36:55
36 minutes, 55 seconds
back to the the skeptical side. Now, Jennifer  stressed to me, you know, remember what Philip  
37:02
37 minutes, 2 seconds
Class did, you know, in terms of almost trying to  bribe your crew at times, offering a $10,000 bribe  
37:09
37 minutes, 9 seconds
at one point to one of your former crew members.  Uh now there have been some pretty specific and  
37:18
37 minutes, 18 seconds
harsh quote unquote debunks uh in the past couple  years, Travis, of people trying to explain away  
37:26
37 minutes, 26 seconds
your experience or say that this was staged or  that it was a watchtowwer and all this stuff. And  
37:34
37 minutes, 34 seconds
I know that at this event that you and Jennifer  will be speaking at that you will address such  
37:40
37 minutes, 40 seconds
debunking efforts and show you know why this isn't  this simply is not the case. So Jennifer would you  
37:48
37 minutes, 48 seconds
mind maybe touching on that aspect a little bit?  Uh Travis and Jennifer whoever wants to hop in   there. What about the debunkers? What would you  put in front of them to finally shut them up?  
37:59
37 minutes, 59 seconds
Well, um, the thing is is that anyone is always  entitled to come up with their own opinion of a  
38:07
38 minutes, 7 seconds
case, but when they haven't really done the  research, uh, or, you know, uh, really been  
38:14
38 minutes, 14 seconds
to the site and looked at where the fire towers  are. I mean, the latest big debunking that kind  
38:22
38 minutes, 22 seconds
of seemed to get a lot of people's attention was  in 2021. I guess it started around April or so  
38:29
38 minutes, 29 seconds
when it was finally produced in shows, but the the  investigation on the planning of this debunking  
38:36
38 minutes, 36 seconds
started around 2020 with a filmmaker named Ryan  Gordon, who showed up in the Snowflake area,  
38:42
38 minutes, 42 seconds
contacted some of the living members of the crew,  especially Mike Rogers, and tried to confuse him  
38:48
38 minutes, 48 seconds
into believing that Travis was going to reveal  that this was really all a hoax, which was not,  
38:54
38 minutes, 54 seconds
of course, true. And this film producer also  called Travis and you know tried to work with  
39:01
39 minutes, 1 second
him. Travis actually recorded the conversation  and said I don't want to have anything to do   with you. You know once he figured out what his  agenda was. But that didn't stop this this guy  
39:10
39 minutes, 10 seconds
and he worked his way onto a podcast. I think it  was Erica Luke's UFO classified show. He kind of  
39:17
39 minutes, 17 seconds
took over in the spring of 2021 and started like  presenting these PowerPoint presentations about  
39:24
39 minutes, 24 seconds
how Travis and Mike Rogers younger brother Cheney  were really like juvenile delinquents when they  
39:30
39 minutes, 30 seconds
were like 14 or 15, bringing up something that  was long taken care of and dealt with as early 14,  
39:36
39 minutes, 36 seconds
15 year old boys can get into some mischief, but  actually it wasn't mischief and they took care  
39:43
39 minutes, 43 seconds
of whatever they they did when they were 14 and  15 with a local police, which was not a problem,  
39:49
39 minutes, 49 seconds
paid retribution to something that was might have  could have been perceived as a crime. But really,  
39:53
39 minutes, 53 seconds
well, what what really finally silenced Ry  silenced Ryan Gordon was learning that I had  
40:01
40 minutes, 1 second
recorded the phone call in which he claimed I was  demanding payment, but he just quote couldn't meet  
40:08
40 minutes, 8 seconds
my price, which was just totally a lie, a flatout  lie. So, you know, he has had to completely drop  
40:16
40 minutes, 16 seconds
the whole issue against me because I have, you  know, proof for anyone that's interested that he  
40:24
40 minutes, 24 seconds
was lying. On top of that, Philip Class um um uh  a fan hobbyists from Australia had investigated  
40:36
40 minutes, 36 seconds
Philip Class. The FBI had been investigating him.  He was editor-inchief of aviation week and space  
40:44
40 minutes, 44 seconds
technology had access to a lot of u very critical  um strategic information and um the FBI I I've got  
40:56
40 minutes, 56 seconds
that file they she sent me copies of it much of  it blacked out I'd love to see what's behind the  
41:02
41 minutes, 2 seconds
blackouts but um their um description of him was  uh not being in full possession of his faculties.  
41:13
41 minutes, 13 seconds
But uh other than that, I would love to know  what they had on him um selling our secrets  
41:20
41 minutes, 20 seconds
to our enemies or whatever. Uh yeah, that total  is totally discredits him. Uh he was not seen  
41:28
41 minutes, 28 seconds
as someone doing the bidding of the government  to discredit something that didn't happen. on  
41:35
41 minutes, 35 seconds
quite the contrary, he was under investigation as  a potential enemy. And um I had the great pleasure  
41:44
41 minutes, 44 seconds
of uh working with Stanton Friedman and Kathleen  Martin and doing archival work on Philip because   they were considering writing a book about him.  So when I lived in Philadelphia, I hosted both of  
41:54
41 minutes, 54 seconds
them at my home for about a week and we spent  a week at the American Philosophical Society   going through his files and I was amazed to find  that Philip class had quite a close relationship  
42:05
42 minutes, 5 seconds
with people like Donald Mensel and Edward Condan,  right? And I think someone else named Robert Lowe.  
42:11
42 minutes, 11 seconds
So there were all these letters back and forth  about see you in the, you know, Mediterranean when   we're going to spend time on a boat and a cruise  together and things like that. So there were a lot  
42:22
42 minutes, 22 seconds
of perks that he got uh and there had to be money  that came from somewhere to cover some of these  
42:29
42 minutes, 29 seconds
expenses because as the writer for air and space  he wasn't necessarily making enough to attend all  
42:35
42 minutes, 35 seconds
these conferences and he also had incredibly quick  connections with media. like if he wanted to get  
42:42
42 minutes, 42 seconds
on the Larry King show, boom, he called up and got  on as skeptic in the back room, right? Which is  
42:48
42 minutes, 48 seconds
a very famous YouTube people can watch when Fire  in the Sky came out. Yeah. Yeah. And that was the  
42:54
42 minutes, 54 seconds
closest I ever came to speaking or hearing him or  seeing him is he was brought in by remote camera  
43:02
43 minutes, 2 seconds
and he totally ignored me. Didn't say a word to  me. immediately lit into Mike Rogers, discrediting  
43:11
43 minutes, 11 seconds
himself, just snarling with some uh profanity.  That's right. But I'm surprised that someone that  
43:21
43 minutes, 21 seconds
pursued this case that thoroughly, badgering Mike  for months on end and and and seeking out Steve  
43:30
43 minutes, 30 seconds
Pierce and taking him out to dinner and trying to  bribe him and, you know, trying to reach the the  
43:35
43 minutes, 35 seconds
witnesses and never a single attempt to speak  to me. Wouldn't you think that if I was making  
43:42
43 minutes, 42 seconds
something up, first thing he'd want to do is come  to me and see if he could trip me up, you know,  
43:48
43 minutes, 48 seconds
not a single contact, you know, after I was  available to the media. Never a single attempt.  
43:55
43 minutes, 55 seconds
And that to me, explain that. That's weird.  So, I'll even in the role we accept for him,  
44:05
44 minutes, 5 seconds
wouldn't you want to go after the main character?  I'll I'll mention something that that I found  
44:10
44 minutes, 10 seconds
interesting as well is that um in the archives  I found a long relationship with a um student  
44:18
44 minutes, 18 seconds
at Northwestern University named Robert Schaefer  who was a PhD student at the time when Jay Allen  
44:24
44 minutes, 24 seconds
Heinik was then brought in to manage and supervise  Blue Book right when Edward Rupelt was demoted and  
44:33
44 minutes, 33 seconds
uh the names of the various projects like sign and  Grudge and Starlight and whatnot suddenly became  
44:40
44 minutes, 40 seconds
then Blue Book Project and J Jay Allen Heinik  ran that for 25 years something like that. Um he  
44:47
44 minutes, 47 seconds
had a long correspondence with a man named Robert  Schaefer and Robert Schaefer was essentially kind  
44:52
44 minutes, 52 seconds
of like reporting back on what Jay Allen Heinik  was doing to Philip Class. Well, on this podcast,  
45:00
45 minutes
it seemed to me, I kept watching the things they  were coming up with on the Erica Luke show, and it  
45:06
45 minutes, 6 seconds
was all the same stuff that Philip Glass had done.  And I kept saying to my friends who would call me   like, "Have you watched this? Do you know what  they're actually coming up with these ideas or  
45:15
45 minutes, 15 seconds
coming up with?" I said, "Yeah, it's all the same  stuff that Robert did." I mean, well, that um I'm   sorry, Philip Class did. Well, lo and behold, who  shows up on this podcast around the fourth episode  
45:25
45 minutes, 25 seconds
kind of as a friend of the show? was Robert  Schaefer as a very old man now and a very happy  
45:34
45 minutes, 34 seconds
to be there agreeing with all of their accusations  that these loggers really just saw a fire tower  
45:40
45 minutes, 40 seconds
and they didn't see a UFO. They saw a fire tower  lit up at night and that really Travis hid out  
45:46
45 minutes, 46 seconds
in the fire tower instead of being, you know, gone  going missing. Of course, they don't deal with the  
45:53
45 minutes, 53 seconds
fact that all the loggers saw the craft fly away.  You know, if it if the craft was a fire tower, how  
46:00
46 minutes
did the fire tower fly away? Right? I mean, like,  there are these ridiculous questions. And also,   fire towers aren't in valleys. They're at the top  of the mountains, right? They're for lookout. So,  
46:10
46 minutes, 10 seconds
you can see from the top of one point to the top  of another point. They weren't working at the top   of the mountain. They were working in a valley,  the Turkey Springs Valley. So, and and the the  
46:19
46 minutes, 19 seconds
nearest fire tower was 5 miles away. So, you can't  in rolling hills, you cannot see a fire tower from  
46:25
46 minutes, 25 seconds
that valley. In fact, I proved that by putting  my video footage up because we flew drones right  
46:31
46 minutes, 31 seconds
around that area and did a 360 degree view long  before Ryan Gordon or Erica Loops were debunking  
46:39
46 minutes, 39 seconds
this, you know. So we had footage uh from the from  the forest site uh you know that we did in 2012  
46:47
46 minutes, 47 seconds
2013 2014 and in fact uh we anticipated continued  debunking on this case because it's been nonex  
46:56
46 minutes, 56 seconds
you know non-stop even since 1975. So Ben Hansen,  who used to do the television show Factor Fiction,  
47:04
47 minutes, 4 seconds
came to the site and did a site review  with Travis and I and another wonderful   man named Gary Hilton. And we went out there  in 2014 and just documented the whole forest,  
47:14
47 minutes, 14 seconds
what it looked like then. And I'm really glad  we did because after Ryan Gordon's programs,  
47:20
47 minutes, 20 seconds
Travis and I did go back to the forest just last  December with a local podcaster named Patrick  
47:26
47 minutes, 26 seconds
James here from the Phoenix area, who's going to  be doing an episodic special on Travis. And guess  
47:32
47 minutes, 32 seconds
what we discovered? Those standing stunks in the  trees that we knew showed rapid tree growth had  
47:39
47 minutes, 39 seconds
been set on fire and hatcheted up with some kind  of hatchet or axe or something trying to destroy  
47:46
47 minutes, 46 seconds
the leftover tree evidence of the rapid tree  growth. So, you know, people will go to any extent  
47:53
47 minutes, 53 seconds
to try to destroy the evidence. And I just sit  back and watch them and think, "Okay, you know,  
47:59
47 minutes, 59 seconds
I think they got a lot of views on their podcast.  Thousands and thousands of views." You know, I  
48:05
48 minutes, 5 seconds
sold more DVDs. You know, I knew something was up.  I There must be some debunker because normally I,  
48:11
48 minutes, 11 seconds
you know, I don't sell a DVD except once a month  or something. I get an an eBay order and I'm like,   "Oh, okay. I better package that up and send  it." So, when you're sending like, you know,  
48:20
48 minutes, 20 seconds
three or four or five a month or 10 a month, you  know something's up. you know, somebody's paying  
48:24
48 minutes, 24 seconds
attention. What What happened to the researchers  who found unusual magnetic readings that faded  
48:32
48 minutes, 32 seconds
quickly after that? Uh or high ozone readings or  uh what about the tracking dogs which tracked my  
48:41
48 minutes, 41 seconds
uh footprints from where I got out of the truck  up to where my body fell and that was it. That  
48:48
48 minutes, 48 seconds
was it. End of story on the on the tracking dogs.  Right. Um, right. The guy that took the radiation  
48:56
48 minutes, 56 seconds
readings on the on the men's uh hard hats during  search. What about them? Right. There's all kinds  
49:02
49 minutes, 2 seconds
of things that I mean, some of the explanations  that they use to try to explain it away like it  
49:08
49 minutes, 8 seconds
was really ball lightning. It was just a ball  of lightning and when I got too close the ball  
49:14
49 minutes, 14 seconds
of lightning uh hit me and then I wandered off  in a days and was lost for five days. You know  
49:22
49 minutes, 22 seconds
there the theories you would not believe how many  they very that it was all um a psychedelic drug  
49:30
49 minutes, 30 seconds
experience. You know cutting trees with chainsaws  is very dangerous work. That's a good way to get  
49:37
49 minutes, 37 seconds
killed to be impaired in any way. Yeah, but I had  blood and urine samples put through the Maricopa  
49:45
49 minutes, 45 seconds
County Medical Examiner's drag drug screen the  next day. Not a trace of any such thing in my  
49:52
49 minutes, 52 seconds
body whatsoever. And you know, the sheriff was  questioned about the men in terms of intoxication.  
49:59
49 minutes, 59 seconds
He said, "I didn't spot anything. I sure didn't  spot anything." And those are his words. In fact,  
50:05
50 minutes, 5 seconds
um, on the website, uh, Travis the the true story  of Travis Walton, it's people can find it if they  
50:12
50 minutes, 12 seconds
go to Travis Walton the movie.com has a debunking  page because there's been so many attacks against  
50:19
50 minutes, 19 seconds
not only my film, but also Fire in the Sky. And  they they confuse the story lines between the two,  
50:25
50 minutes, 25 seconds
which is really what a disinformation's job is to  do, just to confuse people. So you don't even know   when they say the film what film they're talking  about. Are they talking about my film or are they  
50:35
50 minutes, 35 seconds
talking about Fire in the Sky? Anyway, I put a  whole page up called uh the debunking subjects  
50:40
50 minutes, 40 seconds
and I put the full interviews there for people  to watch of Marlon Gillespie, Chuck Ellison,  
50:47
50 minutes, 47 seconds
and I've got Stanton Freriedman there. I've got  the site review that Ben Hansen and I did. I've  
50:52
50 minutes, 52 seconds
got aerial footage there. So, people can just  go there and just look at the facts and start  
50:58
50 minutes, 58 seconds
to educate themselves if they're interested. It's  uh they stand, you know, as evidence on their own  
51:04
51 minutes, 4 seconds
accord. And uh if people really want to look at  the facts, they're there. If you had seven people  
51:10
51 minutes, 10 seconds
witness a murder, testify to that fact without lie  detector tests, it would be an openandsh case. But  
51:19
51 minutes, 19 seconds
here with repeated lie detector tests, you know  that there's no collaboration here. One of the  
51:25
51 minutes, 25 seconds
men on the crew was there for three days. So, um,  you know, any anything that they can throw at it,  
51:33
51 minutes, 33 seconds
you know, it was really the planet Jupiter. I  mean, they had to go to the astronomical charts  
51:39
51 minutes, 39 seconds
and find that, but you know, Jupiter might be  a little brighter than other stars. Uh, but  
51:46
51 minutes, 46 seconds
nobody's going to mistake it for what we saw or  hit you with a beam, Travis. Let's be completely  
51:53
51 minutes, 53 seconds
honest. Um, yeah, and not to mention the polygraph  test. I'm glad you brought that up as well. Um,  
51:58
51 minutes, 58 seconds
we will link the website as well, Jennifer. Um, I  would love, guys, if it's okay with you with our  
52:04
52 minutes, 4 seconds
our limited time. I have some listener questions.  When I put this out, I have never received this  
52:09
52 minutes, 9 seconds
many questions in my life for an episode. Um,  but I picked what I thought would be the greatest  
52:15
52 minutes, 15 seconds
hits from our Patreon subscribers. Uh, they do get  priority to ask guests questions. Um, so would it  
52:21
52 minutes, 21 seconds
be okay to run a few of these by you guys before  we let you go? Cool. Um, I'll start with this one  
52:27
52 minutes, 27 seconds
from Rodrigo on Patreon, and this is sort of for  both of you. Why do you think we don't hear much  
52:34
52 minutes, 34 seconds
about alien abductions any longer? Is it because  they aren't happening as much or has something  
52:41
52 minutes, 41 seconds
changed? You know, we we do have the pinnacle  cases, whether it's Travis's, Whitley Striber,  
52:47
52 minutes, 47 seconds
um, there's many out there. Linda Cortiel case  as well. No matter what you think of that one,   I know it's very controversial. They all are,  let's be honest. But why do we not hear as much  
52:57
52 minutes, 57 seconds
about these high-profile abduction cases? Well,  they're all controversial and that's by design.  
53:03
53 minutes, 3 seconds
I think this is not an accident. I I've said it  before. The aliens are not like slapping their  
53:10
53 minutes, 10 seconds
foreheads. Ah, humans spotted me again. I'll have  to be more careful next time. No, I think that  
53:17
53 minutes, 17 seconds
that the sightings and contacts that have been had  were intentional with the idea of getting humans  
53:25
53 minutes, 25 seconds
to say there's something else out there. Nothing  more because anything more would be uh quite  
53:33
53 minutes, 33 seconds
disruptive. You know, the government finally gave  in to and quit trying to say they're all crazy and  
53:42
53 minutes, 42 seconds
none of this is true. and they actually, you know,  did a uh throw open the cases uh thing and say,  
53:52
53 minutes, 52 seconds
"Look at here's here's an uh something that we  tracked. It's definitely not ours. It's definitely  
53:58
53 minutes, 58 seconds
superior technology." And they did it late on a  Friday, uh which uh left the news with nothing  
54:06
54 minutes, 6 seconds
to talk about for three days. Yeah, by Monday I  was surprised like like oh and then what happened  
54:13
54 minutes, 13 seconds
you know the antilimax. So they actually did this  amazing first time release twice you know issued  
54:21
54 minutes, 21 seconds
the gun camera footage from the military jets of  this uh uh craft moving it and doing maneuvers  
54:31
54 minutes, 31 seconds
that nothing we have could could match. And um  same kind of a thing late on a Friday by Monday  
54:39
54 minutes, 39 seconds
it's all forgotten. But you know I think it's  intentional on the part of the aliens that they're  
54:45
54 minutes, 45 seconds
just basically uh want us to be aware but not um  upset in a in a way that would be destructive.  
54:58
54 minutes, 58 seconds
And um because you know if they're just visiting  for the purpose of observing humans or something,  
55:05
55 minutes, 5 seconds
I think they're perfectly capable of disguising  their presence 100%. We'd never know they were  
55:12
55 minutes, 12 seconds
here. I think the sightings that happen are always  marginal on the edge of the kind of thing that  
55:19
55 minutes, 19 seconds
would cause hysteria. And that's I think just my  opinion part of the plan. I I do have a little  
55:28
55 minutes, 28 seconds
bit of an opinion about that. Uh I noticed that  in 2021 there seemed to be a new agenda afloat.  
55:37
55 minutes, 37 seconds
We did have governmental right uh congressional  hearings going on. We were openly talking about  
55:43
55 minutes, 43 seconds
the subject on major newscast without the laughter  curtain. Right. The subject was now being taken  
55:48
55 minutes, 48 seconds
seriously in terms of there's craft in the sky  and they could be alien. We don't know if they're  
55:54
55 minutes, 54 seconds
alien or not. We don't know who's flying them. if  there's a who behind the the the scenes, right?  
55:59
55 minutes, 59 seconds
But there's definitely craft out maneuvering  our military uh capabilities. But it seemed  
56:05
56 minutes, 5 seconds
to me that there was on two continents a major  effort to debunk anyone who said they had close,  
56:13
56 minutes, 13 seconds
you know, contact with uh non-human intelligence.  And that was the Betty and Barney Hill case was  
56:20
56 minutes, 20 seconds
majorly attacked along with the Walton case on two  continents, both in Australia and in the United  
56:25
56 minutes, 25 seconds
States. and they seem to be working together and  using the same themes, right? So to put major  
56:31
56 minutes, 31 seconds
websites together to do major debunking like Ryan  Gordon was doing or disinformation campaigns like  
56:37
56 minutes, 37 seconds
was on the Erica Luke's program that takes a lot  of money and I think it's financed and I think  
56:43
56 minutes, 43 seconds
it's because if the government comes clean  about the fact that yes we're not alone and   they've known for decades how are they ever going  to deal with any kind of responsibility that maybe  
56:53
56 minutes, 53 seconds
there's some connection between abductions and  these crafts flying around in the sky if the if  
57:00
57 minutes
the government feels like they have to take some  kind of responsibility for that they cannot they  
57:05
57 minutes, 5 seconds
cannot permission to justify their interest in  this subject at all. It has to be categorized as  
57:13
57 minutes, 13 seconds
a threat. Now we we know it's not a threat because  it's been happening for many decades and if they  
57:21
57 minutes, 21 seconds
wanted to eliminate the humans and take the planet  u we didn't we'd never know what hit us. it would  
57:28
57 minutes, 28 seconds
have happened a long time ago. Right. So I don't  see them as a threat and so the government needs  
57:34
57 minutes, 34 seconds
to recognize it as a potential threat just to  justify their interest. Yeah. And I do think we  
57:40
57 minutes, 40 seconds
all need to be aware of the potential of a false  flag operation. Um that was predicted by Verer von  
57:46
57 minutes, 46 seconds
Braonn to Carol Rosen when they worked together.  Um he said to her there's going to be many many  
57:52
57 minutes, 52 seconds
wars and he predicted things like 911, war in the  Middle East, war on drugs, war on terror. And he  
57:58
57 minutes, 58 seconds
said the last war will be a war of alien invasion  and it will be fake. They will all be fake is what  
58:05
58 minutes, 5 seconds
he said to her. These are all planned and they'll  all be fake. And I kind of respect Carol Rosen. I   think she has something there. But of course  she's been attacked as well and keeps a very  
58:14
58 minutes, 14 seconds
low profile. So, I think we need to, you know, do  our own research because right now it's very hard  
58:21
58 minutes, 21 seconds
to understand what's black and what's white,  what's real and what's not. There's so much   disinformation out there. And I think you have to  go within. You have to develop your own intuition,  
58:31
58 minutes, 31 seconds
your own inner way of uh sensing and knowing.  And I think Travis is absolutely right. If the  
58:36
58 minutes, 36 seconds
intelligent species that are visiting our planet  wanted it and wanted us, you know, gone, they  
58:43
58 minutes, 43 seconds
could do it in a blink of an eye and we'd never  know what hit us. Well, skeptics are very fond of   saying, well, if this is real, why don't they land  on the White House lawn and say, "Here we are,  
58:52
58 minutes, 52 seconds
Mr. President, and here's technology from half a  million years in the future." And um anybody who  
58:59
58 minutes, 59 seconds
can't see how destructive that would be just just  eliminating the need for energy that we currently  
59:07
59 minutes, 7 seconds
value uh would cause worldwide economic collapse.  Um there's there's no benefit. It's not that  
59:20
59 minutes, 20 seconds
they're trying to hide some good from us. It's  they're protecting us from our ourselves. They're  
59:26
59 minutes, 26 seconds
observing that human beings favorite occupation is  war. At any one time there's a hundred wars going  
59:35
59 minutes, 35 seconds
on all over the place. The to be in possession of  that kind of technology and to weaponize it would  
59:44
59 minutes, 44 seconds
be hugely destructive. So there's all kinds of  reasons. The minute they had revealed themselves,  
59:51
59 minutes, 51 seconds
the governments would be uh demanding technology  that would instantly be weaponized. That's what  
1:00:00
1 hour
humans do. And uh Ryan and I have talked about  this many times, Travis and Jennifer. We are the  
1:00:08
1 hour, 8 seconds
problem. They are not the problem. Yeah, we're the  problem. We are the problem. Yeah. Well said. Um  
1:00:14
1 hour, 14 seconds
I'll go to this next one. Uh Suzanne, do you have  the listener questions pulled up there? Would you  
1:00:20
1 hour, 20 seconds
mind reading the second one there? Sure. Um do  you have a favorite UFO case? And if any of them  
1:00:26
1 hour, 26 seconds
have impacted your view of your own case, would  you tell us about that? And this is from Jamie T  
1:00:32
1 hour, 32 seconds
on Patreon. That question's for me. Yes, sir. Um,  I recognize there are other legitimate cases, but  
1:00:43
1 hour, 43 seconds
I never wanted to step into the role of pointing  to even one because I would be constantly besieged  
1:00:52
1 hour, 52 seconds
for pointing out more and more and more and  they're also not pointing to others. the the the  
1:00:59
1 hour, 59 seconds
bottom line here is I don't think that the people  who pass judgment on my case without even having  
1:01:06
1 hour, 1 minute, 6 seconds
done the research uh they discredited themselves  by not by by not knowing the facts before they  
1:01:13
1 hour, 1 minute, 13 seconds
express an opinion. And so because I don't have  the time to go research thoroughly anyone else's  
1:01:20
1 hour, 1 minute, 20 seconds
case, I will remain silent on passing judgment  on other people's experiences. Uh there are good  
1:01:27
1 hour, 1 minute, 27 seconds
ones. There are some that are uh not so good.  Um some that are uh mistaken identity, you know,  
1:01:36
1 hour, 1 minute, 36 seconds
not the planet Jupiter, but uh misidentifying  things and and sometimes um even u delusions,  
1:01:44
1 hour, 1 minute, 44 seconds
but um one one uh size doesn't fit all. There's  many things going on at the same time. That's  
1:01:54
1 hour, 1 minute, 54 seconds
fair. Yeah. Good answer. Good answer. Jennifer,  do you have a favorite case? Oh, I have several,   but I mean there there are the typical ones  everybody knows about the Pascula case, the  
1:02:04
1 hour, 2 minutes, 4 seconds
Alagash story with the four art students, right?  Cash Landram, the Linda Cortiel case. There's  
1:02:10
1 hour, 2 minutes, 10 seconds
many excellent cases, including Betty and Barney  Hill. Yep. Absolutely. Absolutely. Awesome. Um,  
1:02:16
1 hour, 2 minutes, 16 seconds
I'll go to the next Patreon question here. Uh, Max  K asks, "Travis, have you ever consulted on any  
1:02:23
1 hour, 2 minutes, 23 seconds
other movies besides Fire in the Sky? And uh, do  you enjoy watching Alien movies or is it traumatic  
1:02:31
1 hour, 2 minutes, 31 seconds
for you to watch other?" I don't watch other  movies. I haven't consulted on them. However,  
1:02:36
1 hour, 2 minutes, 36 seconds
I did work with the screenwriter on rewriting  Fire in the Sky as it was uh, before he passed  
1:02:43
1 hour, 2 minutes, 43 seconds
away. And that's a project I intend to complete  a rewrite and a remake of Fire in the Sky. Wow.  
1:02:51
1 hour, 2 minutes, 51 seconds
Like in your own words from your from your  eyes, right? Not as accurate as possible. I  
1:02:57
1 hour, 2 minutes, 57 seconds
recognize that Hollywood is in the business of  entertaining. Um I'm just thinking that they  
1:03:05
1 hour, 3 minutes, 5 seconds
didn't need to go so far from the facts of the  case uh to like some of the things they they did.  
1:03:12
1 hour, 3 minutes, 12 seconds
um cutting down the number of loggers from 7 to 5.  It simplified the the writing in the presentation.  
1:03:20
1 hour, 3 minutes, 20 seconds
Are you going to tell everything in an hour and  a half? Um um that night the the men went back to  
1:03:27
1 hour, 3 minutes, 27 seconds
the site with the law enforcement. They eliminated  that in the movie because it's just it's a it's a  
1:03:32
1 hour, 3 minutes, 32 seconds
step um that complicates things. So, um, some of  the things that they were doing are just typical  
1:03:41
1 hour, 3 minutes, 41 seconds
of what you're going to get when Hollywood  tries to, uh, take a real life event and, uh,  
1:03:46
1 hour, 3 minutes, 46 seconds
and express it in a theatrical form. It's don't  expect a documentary, but uh, uh, even still,  
1:03:56
1 hour, 3 minutes, 56 seconds
Fire in the Sky as it was um, left you with the  feeling that we had after having experienced this.  
1:04:06
1 hour, 4 minutes, 6 seconds
Hey, will you let me know when the auditions are  for that one, Travis? I am fully in for that. Hey,  
1:04:12
1 hour, 4 minutes, 12 seconds
I'm in. I'm in. Um, Suzanne, do you want to  cover the next one from Anna Maria? Anna Maria  
1:04:18
1 hour, 4 minutes, 18 seconds
on Patreon asks, "Do you have any memories  of childhood abduction experiences? Reports  
1:04:24
1 hour, 4 minutes, 24 seconds
say that you walked directly to the ship or the  light. Was there a familiarity there?" Me? No. No  
1:04:32
1 hour, 4 minutes, 32 seconds
familiarity. I had a childhood experience that I  explained to my family members and they all say,  
1:04:38
1 hour, 4 minutes, 38 seconds
"No, no, that was a dream." And to this day, I  say, "No, that was not a dream." But I have no  
1:04:44
1 hour, 4 minutes, 44 seconds
way to document that other than they remember  me telling them about it and saying this really  
1:04:49
1 hour, 4 minutes, 49 seconds
happened. So, I'd love to hear about that. What  What was involved? Little U man with a large bald  
1:04:58
1 hour, 4 minutes, 58 seconds
head and huge eyes. uh um brief encounter and me  chasing him and he escaping in the house we lived  
1:05:09
1 hour, 5 minutes, 9 seconds
in. Oh my goodness. How old were you? Third  grade. I don't know. You were little. Second  
1:05:19
1 hour, 5 minutes, 19 seconds
grade. What did you think at the time? What how  did you process that at the time? I didn't call it  
1:05:23
1 hour, 5 minutes, 23 seconds
an alien. I said I just said uh I just described  him. He was dressed the way Betty Hill's uh beings  
1:05:31
1 hour, 5 minutes, 31 seconds
were in a black suit, but uh he was very quick.  Interesting. Can I ask Travis, um besides you  
1:05:41
1 hour, 5 minutes, 41 seconds
being the focal point, do you think there's any  connections between that childhood encounter, the  
1:05:49
1 hour, 5 minutes, 49 seconds
encounter in the forest and also the UFO sighting  you had with your son? I didn't, you know, I used  
1:05:56
1 hour, 5 minutes, 56 seconds
to tell people that, you know, that by by feeling  chosen or sing about or anything like that. I said  
1:06:03
1 hour, 6 minutes, 3 seconds
I said it's kind of like a human walking by an ant  den. Oh, I think I'll stop and have a conversation  
1:06:08
1 hour, 6 minutes, 8 seconds
with that little ant right there. And I said, it's  so absurd. They're so far above us that they would  
1:06:14
1 hour, 6 minutes, 14 seconds
have no interest in that. But I disagree now  with with my former thinking. I think that if  
1:06:20
1 hour, 6 minutes, 20 seconds
you saw one when you were younger and you see one  when you're older, they know it's you. And um I  
1:06:28
1 hour, 6 minutes, 28 seconds
agree. I point to the um the Utah data center that  humans keep. It's a gigantic computer in the Utah  
1:06:37
1 hour, 6 minutes, 37 seconds
desert. Takes millions of gallons of water just  to cool it. Basically recording every electronic  
1:06:44
1 hour, 6 minutes, 44 seconds
communication on the face of the earth. Utah Data  Center. Look it up. Um, if if humans can manage  
1:06:52
1 hour, 6 minutes, 52 seconds
that much material, these beings probably  can do so probably inside their heads. So,  
1:07:02
1 hour, 7 minutes, 2 seconds
um, the idea that they wouldn't know it was  you would lose a lot of credibility. I think  
1:07:10
1 hour, 7 minutes, 10 seconds
that they would be able to identify you and know  a lot more about you than you know about yourself.  
1:07:18
1 hour, 7 minutes, 18 seconds
I love that. Um, okay. Sort of final big sweeping  question for both of you. 50-y year anniversary of  
1:07:28
1 hour, 7 minutes, 28 seconds
the Travis Walton incident. Um, Travis, for  you, what what do you want people to truly  
1:07:36
1 hour, 7 minutes, 36 seconds
understand about what happened to you and what  it means for humanity? And Jennifer, for you,  
1:07:43
1 hour, 7 minutes, 43 seconds
uh, what do you want people to take away most  from your involvement with the documentary in this  
1:07:49
1 hour, 7 minutes, 49 seconds
case? I guess, uh, Travis, we'll start with you if  you don't mind. Well, first number one is before  
1:07:54
1 hour, 7 minutes, 54 seconds
you pass judgment on any reports of any kind, get  the facts first. Treat it fairly um, objectively.  
1:08:06
1 hour, 8 minutes, 6 seconds
and uh that that's the starting point for any sort  of um action on this case on this subject. Okay.  
1:08:18
1 hour, 8 minutes, 18 seconds
How about for you Jennifer? Well, I think that  it's important to mark anniversaries and uh this  
1:08:25
1 hour, 8 minutes, 25 seconds
one only happens once. There's only going to be a  one time uh you know a one time 50th anniversary,  
1:08:32
1 hour, 8 minutes, 32 seconds
but we are marking it three different times sort  of. We're marking it with a conference in October  
1:08:37
1 hour, 8 minutes, 37 seconds
which is about two weeks before the anniversary.  So in Sedona with Sedona Muon. I'm now the state  
1:08:44
1 hour, 8 minutes, 44 seconds
section director for Sedona Muon. Stacy Wright  asked me to take that on when I got to Arizona  
1:08:50
1 hour, 8 minutes, 50 seconds
in 2021. So, um, we're doing a three a four-day  event actually, Friday night, all day Saturday,  
1:08:56
1 hour, 8 minutes, 56 seconds
half a day Sunday, and then closing off Monday  morning with the New Paradigm Institutees World  
1:09:02
1 hour, 9 minutes, 2 seconds
Disclosure Day will be a watch party and Don  Schmidt will offer a statement to the world with   165 people probably watching and listening and  participating right there in the audience. So,  
1:09:12
1 hour, 9 minutes, 12 seconds
that will be very nice. And I did my wife is  uh very interested, can't talk her out of it,  
1:09:19
1 hour, 9 minutes, 19 seconds
uh in doing a little 15th anniversary uh event  of some kind. And then on the actual day on the  
1:09:26
1 hour, 9 minutes, 26 seconds
5th of November, 2025, the Sedona Film Festival  is going to screen the documentary uh with two  
1:09:33
1 hour, 9 minutes, 33 seconds
screenings, one at three and one at 700 p.m. So  depending on what people's schedules are, they can   get to it and we'll be honoring Travis there.  And then on November 8th, we're also going to  
1:09:44
1 hour, 9 minutes, 44 seconds
be doing an event at uh Phoenix Muon in Phoenix,  right in Tempe at the Arizona Historical Society.  
1:09:51
1 hour, 9 minutes, 51 seconds
And in each case, we'll have a little dinner  reception, you know, after the events that people   can come to and connect um and sign up with.  And everything's on at the website Sedona.org.
1:10:04
1 hour, 10 minutes, 4 seconds
Sedona.org. So they can go, it's called the  Skyfire Summit 2025. they can look it up and,   you know, start to sign up for things. So,  it should be very special and I just hope  
1:10:14
1 hour, 10 minutes, 14 seconds
that people get a chance to meet Travis and sense  his integrity and his honesty. Um, I feel honored  
1:10:23
1 hour, 10 minutes, 23 seconds
and privileged that Travis has trusted me.  I I was happy that the documentary was more  
1:10:29
1 hour, 10 minutes, 29 seconds
complete and more thorough than and there's been  a few other good ones, but this one actually got  
1:10:35
1 hour, 10 minutes, 35 seconds
personal revelations from the uh investigating uh  people and uh that's unique in its um completeness  
1:10:44
1 hour, 10 minutes, 44 seconds
there. Yes. Thanks. Thanks, Travis. I I do think  I tried to do a good job of of um giving people  
1:10:50
1 hour, 10 minutes, 50 seconds
an opportunity to get to know Travis through the  film. As much as he wanted to strangle me, saying,   "You shouldn't name it my name. Don't name it  Travis." He was like, "Please don't name it  
1:11:00
1 hour, 11 minutes
Travis." And I said, "I have to because it really  is about you and your journey." And um you know,  
1:11:07
1 hour, 11 minutes, 7 seconds
I could have named it the Turkey Spring, you know,  incident or something, but people wouldn't know  
1:11:12
1 hour, 11 minutes, 12 seconds
what it was. So I wanted I wanted it to be very  clear, you know, very transparent as Travis is  
1:11:19
1 hour, 11 minutes, 19 seconds
himself. And I think this guy was already taken.  Right. Right. Right. Right. That's Yeah. No,  
1:11:27
1 hour, 11 minutes, 27 seconds
I think it it really humanizes the story. I  I agree with you, Jennifer. And I am the I  
1:11:33
1 hour, 11 minutes, 33 seconds
am literally the the experiencer guy, the guy who  studies the human side of these possibly non-human  
1:11:40
1 hour, 11 minutes, 40 seconds
experiences. So, I love that it's named Travis.  And I'll say this, I mean, Fire in the Sky left   a huge impact on my life. Your documentary  left a huge impact on my life. And Travis,  
1:11:50
1 hour, 11 minutes, 50 seconds
we met briefly at an Alien Con event, I think,  maybe somewhere. Um, and that left a huge impact  
1:11:57
1 hour, 11 minutes, 57 seconds
on me as well. This case lives on. As many times  as people try to explain it away, um, for every  
1:12:05
1 hour, 12 minutes, 5 seconds
time they do that, you come back with something  stronger to show us all that this happened.  
1:12:12
1 hour, 12 minutes, 12 seconds
this happened to you? What it was, we may never  truly know, but it happened and it affected you,  
1:12:18
1 hour, 12 minutes, 18 seconds
uh, all the other men, your families, the  community, and it just keeps reaching out and now  
1:12:25
1 hour, 12 minutes, 25 seconds
the entire world knows this story. So, yeah. Um,  if anything, I want to just say happy anniversary.  
1:12:32
1 hour, 12 minutes, 32 seconds
Um, you know, I'm sure there's times you wish this  had never happened and maybe sometimes you wish it  
1:12:38
1 hour, 12 minutes, 38 seconds
did. But either way, um, I commend you both for  keeping this story alive, for showing others out  
1:12:44
1 hour, 12 minutes, 44 seconds
there it's okay to talk about your experiences,  no matter how bizarre, scary, beautiful, weird  
1:12:51
1 hour, 12 minutes, 51 seconds
they might be. Um, and at the heart of it remains  the Travis Walton incident. So, yeah. Yeah. Uh,  
1:12:59
1 hour, 12 minutes, 59 seconds
any final words before we let you guys go? Thank  you, Ryan. Th Thank thanks for your integrity and  
1:13:06
1 hour, 13 minutes, 6 seconds
your honesty and your interest in the story and  um I hope that uh your listeners uh will take  
1:13:12
1 hour, 13 minutes, 12 seconds
advantage of this opportunity. You know, Sedona is  a beautiful place to visit if they never have. And   there is time in this conference schedule for  people to really network and get to know one  
1:13:21
1 hour, 13 minutes, 21 seconds
another. What the venue we're using is actually a  church. So there's Sunday morning church services.  
1:13:27
1 hour, 13 minutes, 27 seconds
So Sunday morning is free and Saturday evening is  free. So, and then people could stay on a little  
1:13:33
1 hour, 13 minutes, 33 seconds
bit before or a little bit after and uh enjoy some  of what Sedona has to offer. You know, do a night  
1:13:39
1 hour, 13 minutes, 39 seconds
sky watch, something like that. So, we've put a  lot of other information up there on the website,  
1:13:45
1 hour, 13 minutes, 45 seconds
accommodations and where and how to stay. And  if they stay outside of Sedona in Cottonwood or  
1:13:51
1 hour, 13 minutes, 51 seconds
Cornville or Flagstaff, it's less expensive than  staying right in Sedona. And people will have to  
1:13:57
1 hour, 13 minutes, 57 seconds
find that, you know, they have to rent a car or  fly in or, you know, arrange transportation or use   the Sedona shuttle for two bucks. You can call up  the shuttle and it'll come pick you up. So there's  
1:14:07
1 hour, 14 minutes, 7 seconds
lots of ways that people could, you know, in get  to appreciate this opportunity, but it's designed  
1:14:13
1 hour, 14 minutes, 13 seconds
to be a very small 165 people is not a lot. So  once we sell out, that's it. There aren't any  
1:14:19
1 hour, 14 minutes, 19 seconds
more seats. So, um, it's it's a close, intimate  opportunity to get to know some of the other great  
1:14:25
1 hour, 14 minutes, 25 seconds
speakers we're going to have there and to get to  know Travis. And we'll have some vendors there,   too. So, it really should be a nice event. But,  but don't take the Turkey spring shuttle. You You  
1:14:35
1 hour, 14 minutes, 35 seconds
don't want that one. No good, Travis. No good.  I agree. I love it. I love it. Well, we again,  
1:14:42
1 hour, 14 minutes, 42 seconds
we will link to everything so they can learn  more about the events. Well worth it. Um, hey,   who knows? Maybe I'll even fly over from  Scotland. We shall see. We shall see. Um,  
1:14:51
1 hour, 14 minutes, 51 seconds
but guys, thank you Travis, Jennifer. Thank  you so much for joining me today on Summer  
1:14:56
1 hour, 14 minutes, 56 seconds
in the Skies. It's been a huge uh honor and uh a  very inspiring conversation. So, thank you both.
1:15:11
1 hour, 15 minutes, 11 seconds
Heat.
1:15:16
1 hour, 15 minutes, 16 seconds
[Music] Heat.
1:15:31
1 hour, 15 minutes, 31 seconds
[Music] [Applause] [Music]
1:15:51
1 hour, 15 minutes, 51 seconds
[Music]  
1:15:57
1 hour, 15 minutes, 57 seconds
Spectre Vision video. Somewhere in the  Skies is part of the Somewhere Podcast