While our government's official position  is not to speculate on this subject,   we can choose to let our minds explore other  possibilities to use our imaginations. For if we  
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consider that astrocientists agree on one point,  that the possibility of life elsewhere is not only  
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26 seconds
quite probable, some feel it is there without  a doubt. Let us suppose then that these objects  
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are real space vehicles extraterrestrial  origin and not an illusion of the mind.
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This is somewhere in the skies with Ryan Sprag.
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1 minute, 1 second
Chris, welcome for the very first time to  Somewhere in the Skies. I appreciate it,   man. Thanks for having having me on. I  appreciate it. My pleasure. Now, you know,  
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a lot of us have been keeping up with everything  going on at Skinwalker Ranch as of late. Uh,  
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1 minute, 15 seconds
you know, we've got the television show, the  new owner has come out in the past few years  
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1 minute, 21 seconds
um to tell us about what's been going on. And we  even learned that a government program funded the  
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1 minute, 28 seconds
ranch for an amount of time, which I know you're  going to have some stuff to say about uh as we  
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1 minute, 33 seconds
get into it. But um let's tell our viewers and  listeners, if you don't mind, maybe a little  
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1 minute, 39 seconds
about who you are and your connection to both  Skinwalker Ranch and also uh the Nevada Testing  
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1 minute, 46 seconds
Site and and Area 51. This is crazy when I heard  that not only had you worked out at Groom Lake,  
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1 minute, 53 seconds
but you also worked at this mysterious ranch in  Utah. You're like a UFO podcast's dream guest. So,  
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2 minutes
yeah, man. Give us the origin story if you  don't mind. I guess right place, right time,   I guess. But no, I um I was born and raised in  um small town in Kansas. And uh basically when  
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2 minutes, 11 seconds
I got out of high school in 97, I joined the  United States Air Force um to be a security  
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2 minutes, 17 seconds
forces police officer. And uh that led me down to  uh being stationed at Nellis Air Force Base in Las  
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2 minutes, 23 seconds
Vegas in 1998 as a mainbased police officer there.  And I worked there uh from 2000 from from 1998 to  
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2 minutes, 32 seconds
2006 active duty. And during that time, I was  also a cadre instructor for GCTS, ground combat  
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2 minutes, 39 seconds
training squadron up in Creech Air Force Base, uh,  Nevada. And then in 2006 to 2009, I went to the  
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2 minutes, 46 seconds
IMA reserves for the Air Force. And then in 2006  is when I actually got hired with uh, Department  
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2 minutes, 53 seconds
of Energy for the Nevada Test Site. Um, and that  kind of led me on the path. my my reputation in  
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3 minutes
the Air Force. It's, you know, Nellis Air Force  Base is a very unique uh base because obviously  
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3 minutes, 6 seconds
Nevada's got a lot of black rope projects and  stuff going on. So, if you're working security or   law enforcement out there, you kind of just kind  of fall in line. There's other options. You know,  
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3 minutes, 15 seconds
you can work Metro Las Vegas or Northtown PD  or, you know, there's tons of different jobs,  
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3 minutes, 21 seconds
but I went down the DOE site because I had a lot  of friends there and that's who that's who kind   of got you in the doors. you kind of get vouched  in like a friend's like, "Hey, you should apply."  
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3 minutes, 29 seconds
And and then so I started working there at the  Nevada Test Site for several years. And then my  
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3 minutes, 35 seconds
wife who I met in the Air Force, she was also a  police officer at Nellis. And uh she got orders  
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3 minutes, 41 seconds
to Malstrom Air Force Base. And so this is back  in 2009, late 2009. So we go to Malstrom Air Force  
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3 minutes, 50 seconds
Base because she's from uh Montana originally. So  we thought this was a good move. And then we get   to Malstrom Air Force Base. I don't know if you've  ever been out there in Great Falls, Montana, but  
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3 minutes, 58 seconds
it's it's almost as flat as Kansas. Yeah. Pretty  bad. Yeah. Yeah. Still some good folks out there.  
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And we we enjoyed our time out there, but she got  pregnant with our first son and the Air Force was   kind of downsizing at that time. So, they gave her  the option to get out. And she was like, "Hey, I  
4:15
4 minutes, 15 seconds
don't want to be a military mom, always deployed,  and never see my kid." And I'm like, "Hey,   I get that." Because as a cop in the Air Force,  you're gone all the time. So, I'm like, well, that  
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4 minutes, 24 seconds
means I better roll the dice back to Vegas because  that's where all my connections are at. You know,   I had a job lined up with the federal air or  for the federal U Marshall Service in Montana,  
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4 minutes, 34 seconds
but this is in 2009, 2010. There was a federal  hiring freeze. So, then I started making phone  
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calls back to Las Vegas and um the first person I  called was my old Air Force supervisor and I said,  
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4 minutes, 46 seconds
"Do you have any leads?" you know, naturally I was  trying to go back to the Nevada test site and he   was like, uh, well, now everything's on hiring  freeze, but he said, you might want to call this  
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4 minutes, 55 seconds
other guy who was another ex Air Force supervisor  who worked for, uh, CSC, which had a contract for  
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5 minutes
Air51. So, I call him up and as I'm driving to  Vegas, I get hired pretty much in route to Las  
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Vegas with CSC for part-time work um, until a  full-time job opened up because I still had an  
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5 minutes, 12 seconds
active Q clearance. So, that was a big positive.  So when I got to Las Vegas, I end up making some  
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5 minutes, 18 seconds
more phone calls and then I reached another old  Air Force buddy of mine who had this gig in Utah  
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5 minutes, 23 seconds
or for for Bass and I applied and I got the job,  did the interview and I was working both places at  
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5 minutes, 31 seconds
the same time. I was working for 51 part-time and  then full-time for for Bass. I needed a full-time  
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5 minutes, 37 seconds
job because I had a kid on the way. So that's kind  of a long roundabout way. And then um a full-time  
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5 minutes, 44 seconds
gig open with CSC for the Janet detail and I  worked out for a while and actually quit Bass  
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for I quit Bass went to CSC full-time to work the  Janet detail and then some pay issues came up and  
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5 minutes, 56 seconds
I was forced to kind of go back to my previous job  at Bass at Big Aerospace and that's where I ended   up and I stayed there until I left in 2018 and  then I came here to Kansas and I'm still currently  
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a federal police officer out here. So that's kind  of long long long drawn out question, but that's  
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6 minutes, 13 seconds
the my career in a nutshell. It well it it shows  a dedication to um something you're clearly very  
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6 minutes, 21 seconds
good at to be hired by by places like this. Um  two questions to kind of piggy back off of that if  
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you don't mind. Um now for any of our listeners,  myself included, um who aren't familiar with what  
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6 minutes, 33 seconds
a Q clearance is. Now we know there are different  levels of classification. um what exactly is a Q  
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6 minutes, 40 seconds
clearance or what can you tell us I guess of what  a Q clearance is and um what was like a dayto-day  
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6 minutes, 46 seconds
working security out at Area 51 with Janet and  everything. Well the Q first your first question  
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the Q clear the Q clearance is kind of like just a  DOE's version of a top secret clearance. It's got   a little more little more weight to a normal TS  clearance, I guess, because you go through a very  
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very extensive background check and you go through  a very extensive academy to be a police officer   out there, security police officer out there. Um,  so the wash out rates pretty high. So when you get  
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a queue, it's like a golden ticket. You can pretty  much go anywhere. And a lot of people once they   get their queue, they go right to the Pentagon.  It's a pretty easy transition because it's a very  
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7 minutes, 21 seconds
it's like $20,000 to get a queue clearance. So if  you have one, it's it's beneficial to hire people  
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7 minutes, 27 seconds
who already have a clearance or can get one.  So it's so Q is just a version of the DOE's top  
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7 minutes, 33 seconds
secret. Um basically um uh the the Jenna detail  was basically you report down to the McCarron  
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7 minutes, 42 seconds
airport and you work the the site there with some  other guys and do what normally what you do at a  
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7 minutes, 48 seconds
security airport like TSA. And that's kind of  all I can really say about that. But um yeah,   so you know the Nevada Test Site is a sister site  to 51. They're right next to each other. They're  
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like right next to each other. So 51's in a very  strategic location because you have Nevada Test  
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Site. Um and then you have uh Creech Air Force  Base, TotemPaw Test Range, Nellis Air Force Base,  
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you know, the natural surrounding ma mountains.  It's a perfect location to have a facility like   that, you know, and uh it's all overlapping layers  of security for basically one site. And the Nevada  
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8 minutes, 21 seconds
test site itself is the size of Rhode Island.  That's how much area of responsibility you have   out there. It's huge. A lot of lot of stuff out  there. So, um, with the test site, the Nevada test  
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8 minutes, 31 seconds
site, you sign lots of NDAs going in and leaving  that job. So, there's not much really I can say   about working for the Department of Energy and  working out there NTS. But, I really enjoyed my  
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8 minutes, 41 seconds
time out there. I have a lot of friends out there  and had a lot of great experiences and was a part   of a lot of special access programs out there and  and uh a lot of projects and it was a really eye  
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8 minutes, 52 seconds
openener experience you know and you know you  think you do a lot of stuff for the DoD for the   military and then you go into other organizations  like DOE and it's like a whole different ball  
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game basically right yeah and I mean the DOE is  kind of that um that that carrot that's always  
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dangling in front of the UFO people cuz we're  like they're the only ones that don't answer,  
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you know, for like what they're doing and and it's  understandable to an extent. We we understand, but  
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9 minutes, 20 seconds
um yeah, yeah. Yeah, please. Oh, I think  what and I get a little flack for this,  
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9 minutes, 27 seconds
but this is the reality of the situation here.  It's like um you know we want disclosure and I'm  
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9 minutes, 32 seconds
for disclosure as well but when you have a certain  faction of people asking like for the government  
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9 minutes, 40 seconds
to release all the data or maybe expose technology  that we have and maybe it is alien. I don't know.  
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I can't confirm that. But what you're really doing  is you're jeopardizing national security to a   point because the overall objective for the United  States Air Force and for the military-industrial  
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9 minutes, 56 seconds
complex is air power global dominance. That's the  that's the overall objective and that's how the  
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10 minutes, 2 seconds
United States keeps control and keeps ahead of our  enemies because it boils down to war. You know,  
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this stuff boils down to war and with that loss of  lives and everything else that comes with war, all  
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10 minutes, 14 seconds
the ugly stuff. So, the United States wants to be  on the top edge of the the war fighting platform  
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basically. And so some of these locations like 51  or test site, you know, obviously this techn new  
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10 minutes, 26 seconds
technology is tensitive so we can keep that edge.  So I'm all about having disclosure. Um, but also  
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10 minutes, 34 seconds
I think it's funny that people are still waiting  for the government to give disclosure when it's   the government that's been hiding disclosure for  the last 70 years. So who do we trust here? This  
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10 minutes, 44 seconds
hand or or this hand? It's just like if you're  waiting for the government to to release stuff,  
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good luck. And then if they do release it, is it  going to be true data or is there going to be just  
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a a whitewash narrative to drown out the truth?  So if you're if you're like, you know, somewhere  
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in the skies your the name, if you want to look  for truth, just go outside and observe the skies   yourself and collect your own data, you know.  Yeah. Collect your own data and then don't wait  
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for the government to to to tell you something.  I mean, yeah, I get to a point where people are   like, you know, I pay taxpayer money and I want to  learn about this and I I totally understand that,  
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11 minutes, 21 seconds
but there's a different game being played here  that people don't really fully understand. You   need to take a step back and be like, okay,  who are the people that are talking most about  
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11 minutes, 31 seconds
UAPs being threats and stuff? Have any of them  served? Have any of them hold a hold a top secret  
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11 minutes, 37 seconds
clearance or worked for a three-letter agency? I  don't really see many of them that that do. So,  
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it's kind of like at the end of the day, where  do you want to get your information from? It's   better to go online and start making connections  like with people like you and other investigators  
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and and and putting the pieces together, you know,  independently versus waiting for the government to  
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hand out a silver platter. I'm I'm not I'm not  holding my breath. I really I'm really am. So,  
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I'm kind of kind of jaded a little bit because  of where I used to work at. So, when it comes to   the whole UAP topic, I'm a little bit jaded and I  it's just how it is. I can't I can control what's  
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12 minutes, 15 seconds
up in the skies as an investigator, but I can  control what's on my on the feet on the ground.   And that's what I focused on at Skinwalker Ranch  when I got out there was the focus on what I can  
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12 minutes, 25 seconds
what do I have direct access and control of? I can  control what's in the skies. I can observe it, but   do I really know what's out there? Do I have the  proper equipment or backing or or experts around  
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to say yes or no? It's just you have to really  control what you can get your hands on. Yeah.  
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Right. And you're you're definitely transitioning  into what I think the bulk of this conversation  
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is going to be, and that is Skinwalker Ranch. I  know a lot of our viewers and listeners are really   excited to hear you talk about your experiences  there, which we'll get to. We'll get there, guys.  
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12 minutes, 59 seconds
Uh but before we move on from that, Chris, I love,  you know, with that I guess non-transparency or  
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classification in national security that comes  with things like uh Nevada Testing Site and um  
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13 minutes, 13 seconds
Area 51. When there's no transparency, that's when  people start making things up. That's when people  
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start creating rumors and a mythology is born out  of these places that you've worked at. So, I mean,  
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13 minutes, 27 seconds
what did you know about Area 51 when you finally  made it over there? Did you know about all the  
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13 minutes, 34 seconds
stuff Bob Lazar was talking about and the UFOs?  Yeah. What What can you tell us? That is hilarious  
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that you bring that up because I was going through  my stuff today. I'm I'm I'm I'm trying to set my   office up here in in in my new office where I can  display my photography and I was going through  
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some old books and I actually found this book that  I bought back in 97 which was the Area 51 book.  
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13 minutes, 57 seconds
This is before I joined the Air Force. I read this  book and I was like, "Wow, that's pretty cool."  
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And then I joined the Air Force and then I ended  up working at these locations and I was like,  
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14 minutes, 8 seconds
"Wow, talk about like projecting, you know, your  future." Um, it was very strange. Now, I'm very  
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I'm honestly curious. You know, I'm I love the UFO  stuff. I like the paranormal research. I like all  
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14 minutes, 22 seconds
that stuff. I've I've always been into it. So,  um, this is something I never shared before. Um,  
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when I first got to Noah's Air Force Base, uh,  my first supervisor actually worked at 51. And  
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this is back in 98. And I'll never forget he  had a Nokia cell phone, one of the flip the   old school flip phones one. Yeah. And I'd be  on I'd be on patrol with him and he would get  
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14 minutes, 47 seconds
a call on that cell phone and he would be gone  for weeks and then he would call me up and say,   "Hey, pick me up at McCarron Airport." And I'd  go pick him up and I would say, "Hey, you know,  
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14 minutes, 56 seconds
um you know what happened? Where were you at?"  He wouldn't say nothing. So, uh, I won't say his  
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name, but, uh, long story short, we he had he  got orders to Korea Air Force Base, and this is  
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15 minutes, 9 seconds
back in 9098 99. So, we had this big going away  party for him at the Duce 5, which is across from  
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Ellis Air Force Base. It's like a local military  hangout. And, uh, we get him pretty liquored up or  
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whatever. And fin airmen that are around him, you  know, and we all kind of knew he worked at 51. And  
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finally I asked him, I said, you know, can you  tell us anything about your time out there? And  
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he paused for a second and he said, the things  I've seen out there, we won't lose a air-to-air  
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15 minutes, 41 seconds
war in a thousand years. And that's all he said.  And I was just like, what? And then that was it.  
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And I was just like, wow. But he was like dead set  when he said when he said that. And this is a 98,  
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remind you. He was dead serious when he said that.  So, it makes you wonder kind of like, okay, if  
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there's technology that's out there, let's say the  Tic Tac is some of that technology or whatever,  
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you're looking at a situation where we might have  technology that could replace the entire military  
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fleet of aircraft. We're talking trillions of  dollars of money that would be just gone. like  
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16 minutes, 22 seconds
it'd be outdated aircraft replaced by some type  of superior technology, you know. Um, not saying a  
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tic tac is that, but it's just it makes me wonder  like what if what if that is our technology,   you know, but I also like to play on the fact  that with the oceans, you know, what what do we  
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know about our own oceans here, you know, what  if this technology comes deep from a different  
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16 minutes, 44 seconds
species within our earth's crust or whatever and  it's evolved into this uh hybrid u humanoid where  
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16 minutes, 51 seconds
it has to come surface to refuel. I don't I don't  know. But it makes me wonder our own oceans would   be a good starting point to look at as well. You  know, I don't know. It's something that's always  
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16 minutes, 59 seconds
I've always kind of been curious myself about  what's really down in those ocean in in the deep   ocean, you know, what's what's our own earth, the  secrets of our own earth, you know. Yep. Yeah. I  
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I I tend to always uh keep that in mind that, you  know, we're so trained on the skies and we could  
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be out in the outer reaches of space when when  we know so little about our very own planet. And  
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I think you're right. There has to be some sort  of um reason um logistically and mathematically,  
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17 minutes, 27 seconds
statistically, I guess, that so many UFO sightings  occur over bodies of water or or at least reported  
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17 minutes, 33 seconds
that way even in the military. Um, and then you  have places like uh I I remember researching  
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17 minutes, 39 seconds
a place called uh ACT, like this underground or  excuse me, underwater military installation that  
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17 minutes, 46 seconds
had like a restricted airspace that reached like  the outer atmosphere, which is crazy to think like  
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17 minutes, 53 seconds
what could they be doing from underwater to the  outer reaches of space? What's being tested there,  
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flown there? Um, it blows my mind, man. It really  does. But I I knew a little bit about Bob Lazar.  
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Obviously, I've saw all the when I was uh at being  working at Nellis, listening to the normal news,  
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I would see George Knaps broadcast sometimes  when he'd recap Bob Lazar story. And I was   very intrigued. This is all before even working at  these locations. You know, my kind of plan when I  
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18 minutes, 20 seconds
was in the Air Force was to either stay in for 20  or get out and move back to Kansas or something.  
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18 minutes, 26 seconds
But I ended up staying in Las Vegas for 20 years  and working some of these sites that led me down   this rabbit hole basically. And um but yeah, I  was intrigued by his story as well and it made  
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18 minutes, 37 seconds
me and actually working there some things that  Bob says makes total sense. I don't deny one bit   that he's probably worked there, you know, but  what projects and where only he would know that.  
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18 minutes, 46 seconds
That's how the that's kind of how that area works.  It's overlapping layers of of secrecy where me and  
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18 minutes, 52 seconds
you can work in the same location for 20 years,  but we would need none of us would know what we're  
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18 minutes, 57 seconds
working on. It's just it's how that's how it's  set up to keep the secrecy, you know. Um, so yeah,  
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19 minutes, 4 seconds
there's definitely some truth to his stories.  I I would definitely believe, you know, I guess   when it boils down because I always get people  online that ask me questions, you know, what do  
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19 minutes, 12 seconds
you think of this person? What do you think of  that person? And unless I meet them in person,   I really don't know what to say because it's  like if you want to judge somebody's credibility,  
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19 minutes, 22 seconds
judge the person's character. If their character  is flawed and you're working in these type of care  
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19 minutes, 27 seconds
uh these areas, there might be some some questions  that would arise like are they being truthful? You   know, what's Yeah. What's the real objective here?  What's the narrative they trying to push? I mean,  
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19 minutes, 37 seconds
Bob's story has been pretty much the same the  whole the whole time. So, um I would like to do   a face to face with him maybe one day and  just talk and that'd be cool. Yeah. Yeah,  
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19 minutes, 48 seconds
it' be kind of cool, you know. But I mean I  don't know. It definitely has time. Yeah. Well,  
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19 minutes, 56 seconds
I mean kind of I guess playing off of that, you  know, people people uh a lot of questions online  
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when people saw that you were coming on the show,  they wanted to know what you thought about Bazar.   wanted to know what you think of uh Robert Bigalow  and this that this that and um we're slowly  
20:13
20 minutes, 13 seconds
inching towards Skinwalker Ranch, guys. I promise.  We're getting there. We're getting there. Um so I  
20:19
20 minutes, 19 seconds
guess something you told me offline which I found  really interesting is you actually learned about  
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20 minutes, 26 seconds
Skinw Walker um the phenomenon and possibly the  wrench. Correct me if I'm wrong. Um while you were  
20:32
20 minutes, 32 seconds
still employed at Area 51 before you even got over  there. Is that true that you you learned about it  
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20 minutes, 38 seconds
there? Can you tell us a little about that story?  I I never knew what Skimwalker Skinwalker Ranch   was at all, but I learned about Skinwalkers at  the Nevada Test Site. That's where I learned  
20:48
20 minutes, 48 seconds
about skin walkers. Um kind of like when you go  through the academy there and you start working  
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20 minutes, 54 seconds
in these areas, you have some downtime. So, you  start asking some of the older guard, you know,   stories. Hey, have you seen things out here in  the sky? Have you have you seen this? Have you  
21:03
21 minutes, 3 seconds
seen that? For the most part, people are pretty  quiet about it, you know. Um, but there was a  
21:10
21 minutes, 10 seconds
couple guys who were like, "No, we have seen some  pretty stuff and we have documented it." I'm like,   "What?" And one of the guys said that they  documented like a deer standing up on two legs and  
21:20
21 minutes, 20 seconds
walking around. And the term that he said was, "Oh  yeah, I was a skinwalker." I'm like, "What?" And  
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21 minutes, 26 seconds
so that kind of led me down. Why would there be  skinwalkers out here? And then he was like, "Well,   it's because there's u a lot of native history out  here." I'm like, "Where?" And so, sure enough, he  
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21 minutes, 36 seconds
showed me on a Sunday, we drove out there, there's  an area with petroglyphs that go back 10,000 years  
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21 minutes, 41 seconds
ago. Oh, wow. So, and so it kind of puts uh like  puts you back like what was going on out here  
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21 minutes, 49 seconds
10,000 years ago. I know in the 1800s um the Pyute  and the western Shosonyi were documented in the  
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21 minutes, 56 seconds
in the Nevada test site before uh that there was  taken over but um 10,000 year old petetroglyphs  
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22 minutes, 2 seconds
out there. So it makes you wonder you know  what what was going on out there. So obviously   something because they had some weird weird things  happening. So I find it interesting that a lot of  
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22 minutes, 10 seconds
these places like skinwalker test site a lot of  other places have a lot of Native American history  
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22 minutes, 16 seconds
uh aligned with it. Right. And that's um a big  part of what I want to ask you about um your time  
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22 minutes, 23 seconds
at the ranch uh when we when we get there. So let  let's set it up. Um you know, like you said, you  
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kind of flip-flop back and forth from Skinwalker  back to Nellis and then Skinwalker. Um how did you  
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find out about the job with Bigalow? Did he reach  out to you? Did you reach out to him? Um how did  
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that all go down? And what did you think when you  first learned about what you'd be doing there?   Well, it was uh I I just called an old buddy  of mine who I knew in the Air Force and I said,  
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"Hey, I heard you got some project going on for  an aerospace company and he said,"Well, yeah,   kind of." And and then we started talking and  then we met face to face. We met face to face  
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actually where they broke ground at the new VA  uh medical center in Las Vegas. We met at we met  
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in an old parking lot out there and on the dirt.  It was like out of a movie or whatever, you know,   and we're talking about this and it kind of  gave me the skinny of what the job entailed,  
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23 minutes, 17 seconds
but he didn't go too much in depth because I still  had to do an interview with Colum and and other   people and so that's I applied and uh he kind  of vouched for me and then I had a meeting with  
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Colum and Colum asked me you know typical security  questions and then he asked me um if I was open to  
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the paranormal and at first I was like what do I  Hey, because coming I I want to answer truthfully  
23:45
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because I'm into the paranormal, right? And I  he I think he asked me, you know, have I had any   experiences? And I said, yeah, actually I've had.  And um coming from the Nevada test site, we have  
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23 minutes, 55 seconds
acute clearance. You you don't talk about seeing  UFOs or ghosts or anything like that because they   can pull your clearance because you're dealing  with nuclear security. So they take that very  
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24 minutes, 5 seconds
seriously because you have to walk a line there.  That's I can't I don't even want to I can't even  
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explain it to you, but it's very stressful. But so  I and I said, you know, I'm going to ask honestly.  
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And I said, "Yeah, I I I'm very open to that."  And I I shared with him some of my experiences in   Kansas and even a couple of my experiences that in  uh in at Nellis Air Force Base. There's a hanger  
24:26
24 minutes, 26 seconds
called uh 858 Propulsion Building and it has some  ghost paranormal stuff happening there. And sure  
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24 minutes, 32 seconds
enough, we went there with some other airmen.  This is back in 200 four, five maybe. Anyways,  
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24 minutes, 39 seconds
and we had an experience there and it was like 10  witnesses that all saw it. It was it was crazy.   But so I was very open to the interview and I told  him, "Yeah, I'm I'm open." And he kind of just  
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24 minutes, 48 seconds
nodded his head and I left and my buddy came out  and says, "Hey, you got the job." And I'm like,   "Okay, cool. When do I start?" And that was  it. So, I started at at first, you know,  
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in in Vegas and then um back at the ranch, uh  it was two people out there at the time. So,  
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25 minutes, 5 seconds
you'd have two officers out there. So, one guy  would drive up to to relieve the other guy and   the other guy would go back. So, every week it was  somebody different basically. Okay. So, in October  
25:15
25 minutes, 15 seconds
of 2010 was when I first drove up there from Vegas  to the ranch and was boots on the ground. And the  
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25 minutes, 23 seconds
buddy who hired me was kind of the guy who kind of  trained me up a little bit. And we that we didn't  
25:29
25 minutes, 29 seconds
really have a SOP or standard operating procedure  of what to do. It was kind of like, okay, our job  
25:35
25 minutes, 35 seconds
is to protect the property. I get that. Secure  the site. I get it. I've also collect data, report  
25:40
25 minutes, 40 seconds
anything unusual. I'm like, okay, what do you mean  unusual? You know, and this is back in 2010. I   haven't I didn't read the Hunt for the Skinwalker  book until a couple months after I've been working  
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25 minutes, 50 seconds
there because I didn't want to have any pre-notion  in my mind of something that I I could possibly   experience. Smart. Yeah. So, I remember when I  applied for the job and I found out if that I  
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26 minutes, 1 second
was going to this ranch in Utah, I tried to look  online for something. I couldn't find anything   really about Skinwalker Ranch because back in  2010, there was only there was like one website  
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26 minutes, 10 seconds
and like one or two maybe YouTube videos. That was  it. Yeah. And so I'm like, "What the hell?" I'll  
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26 minutes, 18 seconds
never forget this. My dad who's kind of follow he  followed my whole career in the Air Force and the  
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26 minutes, 24 seconds
test site and then 51 and then, you know, finally  at Skinwalker, I sent him a copy of the Hunt for   the Skinwalker book. And I remember him calling me  up one day and he goes, and this is the only time  
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26 minutes, 34 seconds
I he had concern in his voice. He goes, "Son, what  the hell did you get yourself into?" You know,  
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26 minutes, 40 seconds
and I was like, "Well, Dad, I don't know. I I just  want to go down the rabbit hole and see how far it   goes down." And he was like, "Just be careful."  And uh I just remember he the sound of his voice,  
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26 minutes, 50 seconds
he seemed like he was nervous. I'm like, "I've  deported overseas, you know, and this the time  
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26 minutes, 55 seconds
he sounds nervous, you know, right? Everything  you've gone through that's when he's nervous."  
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27 minutes, 2 seconds
Yeah. Yeah. So then and then then that's kind  of what started my time at at Skinwalker was  
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in October of 2010. And uh yeah, that's where it  all started. Okay. So, um well, let's talk about  
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that time at the ranch then. Um are there what  were some of the um the most compelling things  
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27 minutes, 21 seconds
you came across there? Obviously, people want to  hear the stories of what occurs on this ranch?  
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27 minutes, 27 seconds
What is someone like you who spent weeks on end  there? Uh I'm sure there's days where absolutely  
27:32
27 minutes, 32 seconds
nothing happens. You're bored out of your mind  doing your your rounds and everything, but I know  
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27 minutes, 38 seconds
you've had some pretty crazy stuff happen there,  too. So, yeah. anything you want to share with us,  
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27 minutes, 43 seconds
Chris? Sure. You know, I've been kind of hesitant  about some of my experiences um because I don't  
27:51
27 minutes, 51 seconds
like to say things unless I can back them up  with either a second witness or photographic   evidence or some type of physical evidence. So,  I would say personally the the the experience  
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28 minutes, 1 second
that stands out the most is uh the large wolf  or canine experience I had in October. It was  
28:07
28 minutes, 7 seconds
actually my second week in October um out there  on the property where myself and another officer  
28:14
28 minutes, 14 seconds
um we had this routine down where one guy would  go out for a morning run around the property and  
28:20
28 minutes, 20 seconds
kind of get an eyes on of the environment and kind  of get a a judge of how the day is going to go,   where we're going to go check out. And the other  guy would do the report from the night before and  
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28 minutes, 30 seconds
get that set up. And then, you know, around 11  noon, we'd pack up our gear and hike out and go  
28:36
28 minutes, 36 seconds
explore and look for stuff and do EVP sessions at  some of the homesteads and uh take pictures. And  
28:43
28 minutes, 43 seconds
that's what kind of got my photography going was  at the time there were there was some questionable   pictures being taken at homestead, too. That for  me was was back back it's called back scatter,  
28:52
28 minutes, 52 seconds
which is flash photography in a dusty environment.  And uh I was like, that's not orbs, those are dust   particles. And I I kind of just I kind of debunked  it with my own camera because at the time I had a  
29:02
29 minutes, 2 seconds
more uh more high def camera. And then I kind  of carried my camera my own personal camera   as a secondary ways to document the phenomenon as  best I could. And um anyways, so back to the wolf  
29:13
29 minutes, 13 seconds
story on this particular day. Uh the other the  officer came back from the run and he was like,  
29:19
29 minutes, 19 seconds
"Hey, I found some weird prints, some large canine  prints on top of the mesa." And I'm like, "Okay,  
29:25
29 minutes, 25 seconds
let's go check it out." And I'm from Kansas and  grew up on a farm where we had horses and all,   you know, all kinds of animals you can think of.  We lived out in the middle of nowhere. And so we  
29:35
29 minutes, 35 seconds
go out there and we see these large looks like  it looks like a wolf print, big big size wolf   print. But what made it weird is that there  was like a section where it looked like this  
29:44
29 minutes, 44 seconds
animal was walking on two feet. It had like this  three-foot stride and it would go to four feet,  
29:50
29 minutes, 50 seconds
two feet. It was it was weird. It didn't make  any sense. And at the time we had two black labs  
29:56
29 minutes, 56 seconds
and a a border a border collie dog. We had three  dogs with us and the labs prints and these were  
30:03
30 minutes, 3 seconds
full grown labs. The labs prints and some of the  pictures I I posted before. Um it this these wolf  
30:09
30 minutes, 9 seconds
prints dwarfed the lab prints and you can see the  the the three-foot strike. I threw a ruler down  
30:15
30 minutes, 15 seconds
to kind of measure it. So, we kind of call our  uh supervisor, call him and say, "Hey, we got a  
30:23
30 minutes, 23 seconds
possible weird animal out here or something." His  advice is, you know, be be careful, but document   best you can. I'm like, "Okay, Roger that." So,  me and my a colleague were like, "We're, you know,  
30:33
30 minutes, 33 seconds
we have this stupid mindset like we're going to  go capture this animal," not knowing what we're   really dealing with. You know, this is in 2010.  So, that night we go out. I think it was the next  
30:44
30 minutes, 44 seconds
night we go out and we have all of our gear with  us, you know, and we're out until like 3:00 in  
30:51
30 minutes, 51 seconds
the morning. We're setting up little makeshift  campfires everywhere trying to draw this animal   in. And we felt like the whole night something  was watching us and the dogs were acting very  
31:00
31 minutes
suspicious. They were like clinging to us. And  normally the dogs are out running around trying   to catch rabbits and stuff, but this night they  were very on edge. So we knew something was up.  
31:10
31 minutes, 10 seconds
So anyways, it starts raining a little bit and we  start we're like, "God, we've been out all night.   Let's let's call it a night." It's like 3:30, 3:00  in the morning maybe. I can't remember exactly,  
31:20
31 minutes, 20 seconds
but I remember it was a full moon night. And we  start walking back to Homestead 1, but we start  
31:25
31 minutes, 25 seconds
backtracking our original tracks for that night to  see if we missed anything. And we find behind our  
31:32
31 minutes, 32 seconds
prince wolf prints. This thing had been following  us the whole night and the dogs never picked up  
31:39
31 minutes, 39 seconds
on it. and we never saw it. So, it was just it  was just far enough away to keep a visual on us,  
31:45
31 minutes, 45 seconds
but not not close enough for us to to see it. So,  now we're like, "Holy [ __ ] we need to get back  
31:51
31 minutes, 51 seconds
to the homestead." Um, cuz this thing's tracking  us now. So, we're walking on the main dirt road  
31:59
31 minutes, 59 seconds
that you see on the TV show and we're going  around the curve. Actually, this all happened  
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32 minutes, 3 seconds
at the triangle area. So, we're going around the  triangle area of the ranch. Uh, and I'm about 50  
32:11
32 minutes, 11 seconds
60 feet ahead of my partner. And I'll never forget  this because this replays in my brain every single  
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32 minutes, 16 seconds
night. The the moon is full and there's clouds and  my partner says, "Stop. I hear something." And his  
32:25
32 minutes, 25 seconds
he's like he's like his back is facing the ditch  there and I'm ahead of him. And I turn around to  
32:30
32 minutes, 30 seconds
say, "What?" And as I'm turning around, it feels  like time is compressing like like everything  
32:36
32 minutes, 36 seconds
slows down and the the clouds go over the moon and  everything got really dark. And I felt like the  
32:44
32 minutes, 44 seconds
whole frequency and vibration of the environment  just dropped like you're walking in water. Mhm.  
32:50
32 minutes, 50 seconds
And out of the ditch, we both hear this guttural  growl come out of the ditch and something large  
32:57
32 minutes, 57 seconds
is like a size of a donkey or a deer. Black Wolf  jumps out, lands on the dirt road, takes off west.  
33:05
33 minutes, 5 seconds
The dogs go after the animal. We go after the  dogs cuz we're worried about the dogs fighting  
33:11
33 minutes, 11 seconds
this this big animal. And we're right behind the  animal. And it's like we blink and it's gone. It  
33:17
33 minutes, 17 seconds
like disappeared in the darkness. And we're like,  "What the hell was that?" And the dog stopped dead   in the tracks and looked at us like, "What the  hell was that?" And so we took some pictures and  
33:27
33 minutes, 27 seconds
then we got the hell out of there and got back to  Homestead one and did a report. And I think in the   initial report I I probably even see the animal  because I was so freaked out about losing my  
33:37
33 minutes, 37 seconds
clearance, my my Q clearance that in the initial  report I said I didn't see it because I was I had  
33:43
33 minutes, 43 seconds
planned to go back to Nevada Test eventually just  because all my friends were there and paid better   and there was better benefits and stuff, but I  was like I'm not going to say put this on the  
33:51
33 minutes, 51 seconds
report because my my brain could not process what  I had just experienced. Oh man, it really took me  
33:58
33 minutes, 58 seconds
back. But here's the crazy part. Not that that  wasn't crazy enough, but fast forward to 2015,  
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34 minutes, 5 seconds
I'm out there by myself now because in 2011,  we went to one person on the property. Now,  
34:10
34 minutes, 10 seconds
can you imagine securing a ranch? And at the time,  we had almost a thousand acres. Yeah. We leased we  
34:17
34 minutes, 17 seconds
leased the land around us. We leased the land on  top of the mesa. So, we had more acreage to cover.  
34:23
34 minutes, 23 seconds
But imagine you're supposed to secure the property  by yourself at night. It's total nogo. you don't  
34:29
34 minutes, 29 seconds
do that. But we did. But in 2015, I'm sitting in a  lawn chair at the East Gate with the dogs. At the  
34:36
34 minutes, 36 seconds
time, we had three three labs now cuz Bella had  passed away. And uh it was a nice quiet night. I  
34:44
34 minutes, 44 seconds
think it was in the fall again. And I was kind of  on my phone a little bit looking at the the road,   not paying attention cuz by 2015 the ranch was  like a second home to me. I felt normal out there.  
34:54
34 minutes, 54 seconds
Everything was just, you know, I knew where  stuff happened, but you're kind of, I kind of   um compare it to being deployed overseas  for the first time in a combat zone, like,  
35:03
35 minutes, 3 seconds
you know, you're on edge. You're everything is a  big experience. Everything's like tunnel vision.   By year, by, you know, month nine, month 10,  year one, you're ready to get the hell out of  
35:12
35 minutes, 12 seconds
there and go home. By year five, you're just  like whatever. It's the ranch. I don't care.   It's just whatever. So, you kind of get numb  to the environment. And sometimes that's good,  
35:21
35 minutes, 21 seconds
sometimes that's bad. you get kind of complacent,  which is not good, but also you're you're I feel  
35:26
35 minutes, 26 seconds
like your vibration uh kind of tunes in with  the environment, if that makes sense. Anyway,  
35:32
35 minutes, 32 seconds
so I'm sitting on this lawn chair and my back's  turned against the it's called the eastern valley  
35:39
35 minutes, 39 seconds
and out of the out of this bushes of sage, I hear  that same how growl that I heard in 2010 or yeah,  
35:48
35 minutes, 48 seconds
2010. I come off the chair, gun out, spinning cuz  I thought this thing was going to attack and I can  
35:56
35 minutes, 56 seconds
see the shrubs move and the dogs go after it and  almost come right back like confused. So I go out  
36:02
36 minutes, 2 seconds
with, you know, flashlight. I don't see anything,  but something was there like letting me know, hey,   I'm still here. I was like, "Oh great, now I  got to walk back to the trailer, which is like  
36:12
36 minutes, 12 seconds
a quarter mile away." And on this dirt road,  there's tons of blind spots on this dirt road.  
36:17
36 minutes, 17 seconds
I'm gonna get flanked by something and and I'm not  making it back. So the whole I remember walking  
36:23
36 minutes, 23 seconds
back that night like just gun out like, "Oh, this  is it. I'm gonna die. I'm going to die today. I'm  
36:28
36 minutes, 28 seconds
going to die on Skinwalker Ranch." Yeah. And I was  just like, "Give me a break." You know, dang. So,  
36:34
36 minutes, 34 seconds
and then other things that's happened out there.  Um, uh, you know, UFO related. Not too much stuff  
36:44
36 minutes, 44 seconds
that I would say I can consider UAP or UFO. And  but again, remind you, I didn't spend that much  
36:50
36 minutes, 50 seconds
time staring like looking for that. Uh I focus  more on the ground because I I treated I treated  
36:56
36 minutes, 56 seconds
the ranch like a giant crime scene. I wanted to  collect real hard data evidence that I can link   with the phenomena maybe. But anyway, I had a spot  out there on the ranch. I called Meditation Rock  
37:06
37 minutes, 6 seconds
and I would go out there with the dogs at night  sometimes, especially the last couple years I   lived out there. I would go out on the on the rock  and sleep on the rocks at night with the dogs and  
37:15
37 minutes, 15 seconds
and watch the stars because I really felt like the  more time I physically invested in the property,  
37:21
37 minutes, 21 seconds
the more things would open up. I feel that that is  key to understanding the ranch. You have to really  
37:27
37 minutes, 27 seconds
put your sweat equity and get your boots dirty  and you have to really uh invest your energy into  
37:34
37 minutes, 34 seconds
that environment to understand that property.  And when you do that, I think things open up.  
37:39
37 minutes, 39 seconds
At least it did for me. And I would go out in this  rock and and watch the stars and with the dogs. It  
37:46
37 minutes, 46 seconds
was a great time because, you know, looking back  now, you know, there's TV shows, documentaries,  
37:51
37 minutes, 51 seconds
everything. Skinwalker is like a a it's on  Netflix now. Back then, back then the ranch was  
37:57
37 minutes, 57 seconds
in my brain was never going to be a mainstream  topic. It was just a place that I worked at,   like another site that I secured before, you know,  the DOE and and the test site and and my time  
38:07
38 minutes, 7 seconds
at another job assignment, but it was a place I  actually fell in love with. You know, I love being   out there. I hated being away from my family, but  I really enjoyed my time out there and I made my  
38:17
38 minutes, 17 seconds
time useful. So, I would do my photography to help  pass the time and explore and look for things and  
38:24
38 minutes, 24 seconds
I kind of felt pretty connected to the place.  That That's great, man. And I love this idea of  
38:30
38 minutes, 30 seconds
um you know investing in the environment and the  environment will invest into you. Like it is such  
38:37
38 minutes, 37 seconds
a give and take. And um a big part of your time  there was documenting uh certain things. A lot of  
38:44
38 minutes, 44 seconds
the Native American history which gets overlooked  a lot when it comes to Skinwalker Ranch. Let's be  
38:49
38 minutes, 49 seconds
honest. It's kind of based around this Native  American uh curse or or folklore of the area.  
38:57
38 minutes, 57 seconds
And um that's all we really hear about it. And  then we now move on to the UFO aspect or the you  
39:03
39 minutes, 3 seconds
know the portals and the the wolves and this  and that which is like of course amazing and  
39:10
39 minutes, 10 seconds
um literally phenomenal. We don't know what it  is but there's this whole other aspect to all  
39:16
39 minutes, 16 seconds
of this that gets overlooked. And I think people  like you, like James Keenan, like um Carl as well,  
39:23
39 minutes, 23 seconds
Carl Vibe, uh you guys are documenting very  important things that are getting overlooked  
39:31
39 minutes, 31 seconds
by the mainstream when it comes to all this. So  I'd love to ask you, um what did someone like  
39:38
39 minutes, 38 seconds
Bigalow think about your kind of approach to the  ranch? you know, I mean, he's hiring people there  
39:44
39 minutes, 44 seconds
to investigate and try to figure out what's going  on with with all the uh paranormal stuff, but then  
39:51
39 minutes, 51 seconds
you've got this ancient history there as well.  Did that ever come into it when you when you were  
39:58
39 minutes, 58 seconds
hired or with Cole? And um what did they think of  your whole approach to to investigating the ranch?
40:07
40 minutes, 7 seconds
Hello, this is Ryan Spreg, the host of Summer in  the Skies. If you're enjoying our podcast, our  
40:13
40 minutes, 13 seconds
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40 minutes, 18 seconds
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40 minutes, 25 seconds
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40 minutes, 32 seconds
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40 minutes, 38 seconds
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40 minutes, 45 seconds
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40 minutes, 51 seconds
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40 minutes, 56 seconds
helps fund our research, our production, travel,  interviews, and the continued growth of everything  
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41 minutes, 3 seconds
we do here. So, to learn more, check the links in  the show notes or the video description. And real  
41:10
41 minutes, 10 seconds
talk here, guys, thank you for listening and  supporting us for almost 10 years. And thank  
41:16
41 minutes, 16 seconds
you for supporting independent content. and I hope  you'll continue to join me somewhere in the skies.
41:27
41 minutes, 27 seconds
It's kind of interesting because there was a  serious lack of communication during my time  
41:31
41 minutes, 31 seconds
out there on the property. So, I'm not sure what  Bigalow really thought. I know that um I know  
41:39
41 minutes, 39 seconds
one of the reasons why I quit the first time  was because I was documenting Native American   artifacts around the whole entire property and  it was being overlooked and I actually received  
41:49
41 minutes, 49 seconds
an email from somebody wasn't calling it was  somebody underneath him who said stop reporting  
41:54
41 minutes, 54 seconds
artifacts is not important and I was like it's  100% important because it's history and for  
42:00
42 minutes
the first time ever it's physical evidence and  through this evidence we can find what was going   on because in all Native American, not all but in  the majority of the tribes, especially in Utah,  
42:11
42 minutes, 11 seconds
talk about the star people and their culture. So,  we're not going to explore this aspect of what   tribes are out here. It wasn't just the youths.  It goes back to the Fremont. And then even beyond  
42:20
42 minutes, 20 seconds
that, because let me show you how important this  is. in one area like on the TV show the finale  
42:28
42 minutes, 28 seconds
where it shows the pillars and the the pentagram  um that they capture in the last episode that area  
42:36
42 minutes, 36 seconds
the eastern valley is where I spent 90% of  my time because I felt naturally drawn there   but there was also an abundance of artifacts out  there in history and I document it so my thought  
42:46
42 minutes, 46 seconds
process was this I had a I had a topographical  topographical map of the property and every time   I'd find an artifact I would take a picture  and GP PS it. And then some artifacts I bring  
42:57
42 minutes, 57 seconds
back to Homestead One to do further analysis and  and online research as best I could. Some of the   artifacts I actually took down to Vernal, Utah,  and had professionals look at to get dates and  
43:07
43 minutes, 7 seconds
I would I would document all this stuff because I  felt like if I could connect people's experiences   to maybe an abundance of artifacts, there was a  solid connection there for the first time ever.  
43:16
43 minutes, 16 seconds
It wasn't just like, oh, it's this or it's that  or, you know, there was no direction when I  
43:22
43 minutes, 22 seconds
first got hired to what to look for. There really  wasn't. It was like anything out of the ordinary,  
43:27
43 minutes, 27 seconds
report it. Like, okay, be more specific. There was  no like, hey, focus on this or focus on that. So,  
43:33
43 minutes, 33 seconds
when I got told to stop reporting it, I was  like, what what's the deal here? So that kind  
43:40
43 minutes, 40 seconds
of upset me a lot because I invested so much of my  time doing that and I thought that was extremely  
43:46
43 minutes, 46 seconds
important and I still do to this day. So much so  that I've gone back to the basin on my own and  
43:52
43 minutes, 52 seconds
documented other locations around the entire basin  that have the same type of connective phenomena  
43:57
43 minutes, 57 seconds
which is you know reporting skinwalkers and UFOs  but there's also a Native American native Native  
44:02
44 minutes, 2 seconds
American base there you know but in the area  um in the Eastern Valley the artifacts are this  
44:10
44 minutes, 10 seconds
important in one location I found artifacts that  go back 1500 years ago the arcade archaic period  
44:16
44 minutes, 16 seconds
in the same location I found paleo artifacts that  go back 10,000 years ago. So you have overlapping  
44:22
44 minutes, 22 seconds
layers of history in one location. You know  what was going on out there during that time  
44:28
44 minutes, 28 seconds
much like the Nevada test site where they saw  skinwalkers and there's petetroglyphs that go   back 10,000 years ago and Skinwalker Ranch, same  thing. Manki Ranch, same thing. Blindfog Ranch has  
44:39
44 minutes, 39 seconds
stuff up there. McKe Springs, Nine Mile Canyon.  And there's it's undeniable. You cannot ignore  
44:46
44 minutes, 46 seconds
that anymore. There's there's history there and  it's worth exploring. And I'm not the only guy   doing it. There's there's been people before  me who who brought up the same type of stuff  
44:56
44 minutes, 56 seconds
that I'm talking about now. I just so happen  to photograph and document it. And you know,   I've linked up with James Keenan and Carl Vibe  and they've helped me as well. You know, James  
45:04
45 minutes, 4 seconds
Kenan's got a insane amount of knowledge about  this stuff about especially about petetroglyphs.  
45:09
45 minutes, 9 seconds
And Carl's got a great eye and he's also very into  it. He's very knowledgeable about this stuff. So,  
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45 minutes, 17 seconds
um, you know, linking up with the right guys. You  know, the term the term iron sharpens iron. You   want to surround yourself with some of the best  guys. I'm surrounded with some of the best guys,  
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I believe, that are not just looking for a  payout. They're looking for truth. And that's   important when it comes down to it because I  think there's something worth exploring more.  
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And that's what I'm continuing to do on my own  is that I love, but yeah, I know Colum was more  
45:39
45 minutes, 39 seconds
open to it. I think we had a conversation where  he was like just keep doing it but don't do it  
45:45
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on on the daily journal. So that's when I took  it upon myself to keep my own personal journal   and documenting everything myself. And that's  what I did for five six the whole time I was  
45:54
45 minutes, 54 seconds
out there. I have my own personal journal of of  documentation of stuff or not just artifacts but  
46:01
46 minutes, 1 second
also areas of interest that are highly important  into understanding what's going on out there.  
46:08
46 minutes, 8 seconds
And when like the whole UAP stuff that's out now,  it seems like that's such a mainstream topic. It  
46:14
46 minutes, 14 seconds
almost seems like that's that's the new narrative  now that has to be crowned down everybody's throat  
46:19
46 minutes, 19 seconds
is everything's UAP. Everything's UAP UFO. UFOs  are threats. UAPs are threats. I just I don't buy  
46:27
46 minutes, 27 seconds
it. I don't I don't buy it, man. I don't buy it  because of where I used to work at, but also I'm   having an open mind here. If we're talking about  real aliens, is that what we're talking about?  
46:37
46 minutes, 37 seconds
Okay. So, we're talking about a culture of of of  beings that are so advanced they're going to come   here and do what? Wipe us out. Are we going to  be able to stop that? I don't think so. I don't  
46:47
46 minutes, 47 seconds
think that we're going to be able. But why would  they wipe us out? They're probably coming here   using us as a resource, much like we use cattle as  resource. So, they probably view us as nothing but  
46:56
46 minutes, 56 seconds
cattle and they use us as a resource. So, they're  not going to hurt their resource. They may stop us  
47:02
47 minutes, 2 seconds
from hurting ourselves because I've said before  the only threat to humanity is humanity itself.  
47:08
47 minutes, 8 seconds
We are such a destructive species. We're bound  for extinction and we don't care. We're just   like whatever doesn't matter because we have so  many distractions now. And that's why the Native  
47:16
47 minutes, 16 seconds
American stuff is so important. These people  didn't have distractions. So if they're taking   the time to make petetroglyphs about portals  or what giants or whatever else in their area,  
47:27
47 minutes, 27 seconds
they're doing that for a reason. They're not just  bored. Okay, we're not we're talking 8,000 10,000  
47:34
47 minutes, 34 seconds
years ago. People are foraging and hunting  every day to live. They're not going to get   bored and say, "Hey, I'm going to go screw on  these rocks cuz I'm bored." No, they're trying  
47:42
47 minutes, 42 seconds
to relay information. And so it's just ignored  because we're taught in our culture in American  
47:49
47 minutes, 49 seconds
culture to to like not focus on that when in  reality full circle we need to be focusing back  
47:55
47 minutes, 55 seconds
in the native tribes and their cultures and their  teachings because they had it right. You know,   we want all these scientific explanations and  data and evidence. And I get that. I'm totally  
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48 minutes, 5 seconds
for that. But maybe it's more important if we  just sit back on a messa or on a rock or by a  
48:10
48 minutes, 10 seconds
river and just absorb the moment and learn. That's  the key is absorbing the time. And who cares about  
48:18
48 minutes, 18 seconds
documenting evidence? I get to a point, but it's  more important to focus on the moment because I've   said before the ranch is bigger than a TV show.  It's bigger than my photography. It's bigger than  
48:28
48 minutes, 28 seconds
a contract with the government. It is real Native  American indigenous culture history. And it needs  
48:36
48 minutes, 36 seconds
to be respected and learned. And the only way  to learn is just sitting there and absorbing it.   You have to be there to absorb it. You have to  go out to these places, these petetroglyphs,  
48:45
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and see them for yourself and think to yourself,  what was going on out here, you know, because in  
48:51
48 minutes, 51 seconds
today's society, we're so distracted with iPads  and TV shows. They didn't have anything like   that. The stars were their iPad. The the Earth was  their their Netflix and that's what they watched,  
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49 minutes, 1 second
and they learned from that. I mean, let's be  real here. It's just like it it it feels like  
49:07
49 minutes, 7 seconds
I've been taking crazy pills since 2011 because  in 2011 is when I found my first artifact in  
49:13
49 minutes, 13 seconds
the Eastern Valley. And that flipped my whole  perception of everything. I was like, "Whoa,   there's something else going on out here."  And then I felt like the this may sound crazy,  
49:23
49 minutes, 23 seconds
but it's the honest to God truth. The whole time  I was out there, I felt like I was being guided   by something bigger. Something was guiding me to  find this stuff cuz it wasn't just one artifact.  
49:34
49 minutes, 34 seconds
No, it was other areas of interest. Some of those  areas which I showed on the TV show, a cave that  
49:40
49 minutes, 40 seconds
was on the show. That's one of many areas I know  out there personally that are very important to  
49:45
49 minutes, 45 seconds
the overall aspect and view of the ranch. And I  think it's great that Utah's getting that uh you  
49:53
49 minutes, 53 seconds
know attention because it's drawing more people  out to the basin so they can experience themselves  
49:58
49 minutes, 58 seconds
and make their own assumptions because it's very  easy for us to be very judgmental at home and and  
50:04
50 minutes, 4 seconds
you know arm armchair quarterback stuff and and  you never go out there and experience it. And  
50:10
50 minutes, 10 seconds
you don't have to even go to Utah. There's places  probably in your local areas with native history   that you can go out and just learn about it. you  might learn something. And really for me, the  
50:20
50 minutes, 20 seconds
ranch was about spiritual evolution. That's how it  boiled down to me. It was just about evolving as  
50:26
50 minutes, 26 seconds
a human being. And that's what I kind of did with  my I kind of showed that through my photography.   Like the ranch, it's viewed as a real scary like  you always hear the spookiest place in the world,  
50:36
50 minutes, 36 seconds
the most paranormal hot spot. And it is. It  the ranch can be as dark as you want or as  
50:42
50 minutes, 42 seconds
light as you want. It's based on the individual,  what you're going to focus your attention on.   And I focused on the dark a little bit and then  I focused on the light. But I my my primary focus  
50:51
50 minutes, 51 seconds
was the light and the capturing the beauty of  the ranch of the property. That was my focus.  
50:56
50 minutes, 56 seconds
And I kind of felt like that opened up the ranch  more because I was so focused on subject matters  
51:03
51 minutes, 3 seconds
of like you know artifacts, rock formations, the  vegetation, animals. And so I kind of that kind  
51:10
51 minutes, 10 seconds
of helped me understand the ranch more. I used  to do this thing um to put my mind in the in the  
51:17
51 minutes, 17 seconds
kind of in the focus like laser focus. I would  uh I would imagine that I had just landed on a  
51:22
51 minutes, 22 seconds
different planet and I was and I was an alien or  an alien explorer and it was my job to find proof  
51:28
51 minutes, 28 seconds
of life. So I would land in in Utah and it was my  job to go out and find artifacts to find evidence  
51:34
51 minutes, 34 seconds
to later go back to report and I kind of that  kind of helped me focus on the minor details of   being out there. And I still kind of use that  technique today. I go out and I say, "Okay,  
51:42
51 minutes, 42 seconds
I'm the alien. I just landed and it's my job to  find." It sounds crazy, but and it's just I don't  
51:50
51 minutes, 50 seconds
know. Maybe I was at the ranch for too long. Had  too much time on my hands, but No, exactly, man.  
51:57
51 minutes, 57 seconds
And that's what we want. We want you to be real  with us cuz you know we get this kind of filtered   perception of the ranch through the books through  the TV shows and you know I respect the work being  
52:07
52 minutes, 7 seconds
done there. There's no denying like I think people  like Brandon Fugal and even Bigalow to an extent   like they wanted answers. They have a burning  curiosity. They've had experiences. They want  
52:17
52 minutes, 17 seconds
to know and they have the resources to do that.  That's amazing. But um I the people that are Yeah,  
52:24
52 minutes, 24 seconds
please. the people that are asking those questions  like Bigalow, Fugal, not so much. Fugle goes out   there, but people that ask those questions, they  need to go physically to those locations and put  
52:34
52 minutes, 34 seconds
that time in. You can't just do a third party  and expect to get the truth because what if   those people who are giving you that information  are not honorable people? They're just honest and  
52:44
52 minutes, 44 seconds
they're feeding you a bunch of crap. You have  to be I know if I'm passionate about something,   I'm going to go directly to the source and figure  it out or try to try to figure it out. And that's  
52:55
52 minutes, 55 seconds
what kind of Carl did recently. You know, Carl  had this whole Magic Mesa thing and he could have  
53:00
53 minutes
doubled down and said it's all paranormal or UFOs,  but he didn't. He went out there and debunked  
53:06
53 minutes, 6 seconds
his own thing and that's saying something. I  think when it comes to some of these locations,  
53:12
53 minutes, 12 seconds
there's been people who have lied. I know there  has been personally who've lied to impress people  
53:18
53 minutes, 18 seconds
or to get the favors of somebody or whatever the  reason was. And it's not uncommon to think that  
53:23
53 minutes, 23 seconds
it happens every single day in society where  employees do their best to, you know, impress  
53:29
53 minutes, 29 seconds
their boss. It happens everywhere and every single  job in America and across the world. So, how is it   going to be any different at these locations? You  want to impress your boss. You want to produce,  
53:38
53 minutes, 38 seconds
but what are you going to produce? [ __ ] or  truth? I focus on the truth, man. That's it.  
53:44
53 minutes, 44 seconds
I love it. Well, okay. Truth is the perfect way  to kind of tackle um what I think is going to be  
53:51
53 minutes, 51 seconds
the most controversial part of this conversation,  Chris. And I have to ask because I know a lot of  
53:57
53 minutes, 57 seconds
people um they're frustrated with the lack  of transparency that came from the Bigalow   era of the ranch. You know, a lot of people  their their not excuse, their explanation for  
54:07
54 minutes, 7 seconds
why they're frustrated is because taxpayer money  did end up going to studying Skinwalker Ranch  
54:12
54 minutes, 12 seconds
through a Pentagonf funded program. So, I have  to ask you, as someone who worked on the ranch,  
54:19
54 minutes, 19 seconds
were you ever aware that the US government  actually was funding some of the research going  
54:27
54 minutes, 27 seconds
on at the ranch? And uh what do you make of the  whole government ties to Skinwalker Ranch? What?  
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54 minutes, 34 seconds
That's a good question because I didn't really I  knew I've like nobody sat me down and said, "Okay,  
54:39
54 minutes, 39 seconds
here's the game plan. Here's what's going on." And  that's lack of communication. And that's why those  
54:45
54 minutes, 45 seconds
programs fail like a communication. And there's  some people that say OAP was a a success. And  
54:52
54 minutes, 52 seconds
in some some areas it was a success but also was  a complete failure because from the start there  
54:58
54 minutes, 58 seconds
was a lack of communication. There was no set  objective at all during my time. So it really kind  
55:05
55 minutes, 5 seconds
of boils down to the start if you're going to talk  about OAP. And this all started from Jame Lowsky  
55:12
55 minutes, 12 seconds
who was a DIA agent who reached out to Robert  Bigalow back in 2007, right? And says, "Hey,  
55:18
55 minutes, 18 seconds
I want to come check out your ranch." And Bigalow  is like, "Okay." So right there, that's kind of a   to me it seems like a red flag because anytime the  government gets involved with the private sector,  
55:27
55 minutes, 27 seconds
who's that really to benefit? The private sector  or the government? So anyway, so Lowassy goes on  
55:34
55 minutes, 34 seconds
the property and in less than two hours has  an experience, you know, so incredible that   he goes back to the Pentagon and gets funding for  OSAP with zero evidence. That's another red flag.  
55:46
55 minutes, 46 seconds
Why? How are you going to get money with zero  evidence just based on somebody's experience?  
55:52
55 minutes, 52 seconds
Nobody's questioning that. Are you serious? It's  like and then so that's not the part that that   strikes me as odd because I never knew about  Licassy at all the whole time I worked there.  
56:02
56 minutes, 2 seconds
But if you have a guy who had an experience and  he's just sitting in Washington, not out there on  
56:09
56 minutes, 9 seconds
the ranch, and he obviously had his tapped on the  universe's door where he was able to get funding  
56:15
56 minutes, 15 seconds
for this experiment, but he's not out there boots  on the ground with me and other guys out there,   what's the point? It's it's set up for failure  from the start because your your your most  
56:25
56 minutes, 25 seconds
important asset resource who had the connection is  gone. He's nowhere to be found. So now it's left  
56:31
56 minutes, 31 seconds
to a bunch of prior military veterans to go out  there and and do what? Figure what out. It seems   like the whole program was a fail to this in the  beginning because of the lack of communication.  
56:40
56 minutes, 40 seconds
We still were able to collect data and and and  have some experiences, but it makes you wonder,   you know, what was what else was going on out  there that we didn't know about. It seemed like  
56:50
56 minutes, 50 seconds
the the it seems like certain people during my  timeline avoided the ranch like the plague. And  
56:56
56 minutes, 56 seconds
it's just like what do you want us to do out here?  there's there's limited direction. So, and that's   like the military mindset is like work more with  less. And so, that's what we do. You work more  
57:06
57 minutes, 6 seconds
with less. You still have a job to do. But to  me, you know, after learning about OAP, cuz I   didn't know about OAP until 2019, but and learning  about Latsky and stuff, uh, I didn't know that he  
57:17
57 minutes, 17 seconds
even came out there and had experience. It wasn't  until later with the new book and stuff that he   that I found out. But I thought to myself, what  a wasted opportunity because it would have been  
57:27
57 minutes, 27 seconds
great for him to come out there because he's had  he has a connection out there and that's how the   ranch works. I I feel the ranch has a connected  connectiveness to people or whatever. So why  
57:39
57 minutes, 39 seconds
would you want to come back out? It doesn't make  any sense to me, you know? It feels like a missed  
57:44
57 minutes, 44 seconds
opportunity, you know, and I don't know if if if  the reason why he didn't come out was because he  
57:50
57 minutes, 50 seconds
had a bad experience and I guess according to the  book, there was five other guys who came out there  
57:55
57 minutes, 55 seconds
and they all they all had horrible experiences  and their families were affected. So, if that new  
58:02
58 minutes, 2 seconds
book that came out was created to set the record  straight and everything in that book is factual or  
58:08
58 minutes, 8 seconds
real, and you're saying that these people had all  these horrible experiences, why the hell are we  
58:15
58 minutes, 15 seconds
out there on the ranch by ourselves indefinitely  running and gunning? That's okay. That's not okay.  
58:23
58 minutes, 23 seconds
You can't keep You can't put people out there  and not tell them what's going on. I mean,   am I wrong here? It seems like imagine putting  yourself in my situation, right? Put yourself in  
58:33
58 minutes, 33 seconds
my situation for a second. And your job is to  secure the property, collect data, and you're   doing it as best as you can. And you do it for  years and years and years. And then to come to  
58:43
58 minutes, 43 seconds
find out there is another program going on, ALSAP,  and there was people that had horrible experiences  
58:50
58 minutes, 50 seconds
that affected their families. And I had things  happen to my family, horrible things that directly  
58:57
58 minutes, 57 seconds
from the ranch. And I knew other colleagues of  mine had bad things. So my family is expendable.  
59:02
59 minutes, 2 seconds
My health's expendable. It's unacceptable. And  there that it's it's a point that everybody  
59:08
59 minutes, 8 seconds
just kind of glazes over. And it's a point that  needs to be at some point there needs to be some   accountability or at least somebody needs to call  me up and have a conversation because that's the  
59:17
59 minutes, 17 seconds
right thing to do because I feel like we're just  abandoned out there with no no real direction.  
59:23
59 minutes, 23 seconds
I'm so happy you brought this up because the one  of the most I would say touchy subjects when it  
59:31
59 minutes, 31 seconds
comes to all of this is this idea I I'm just going  to come out and say it. Some people think that  
59:39
59 minutes, 39 seconds
people like you or even the current people on the  ranch are being I I hate using this word but we're  
59:48
59 minutes, 48 seconds
being used as like guinea pigs is the term people  have said. You have people like um Travis Taylor  
59:54
59 minutes, 54 seconds
who got radiation poisoning. You had members of  um you know during your time other people who  
1:00:01
1 hour, 1 second
had ailments or brought home these hitchhiker  effects as they've sort sort of coined it. But  
1:00:06
1 hour, 6 seconds
um you know that's the paranormal side. Then  we have the actual clinical physiological uh  
1:00:13
1 hour, 13 seconds
ailments that have occurred on this ranch. So, I  I guess I'll just flat out ask you, what are your  
1:00:19
1 hour, 19 seconds
opinions on those who do claim that you guys were  being used as some sort of experiment? Yeah, it's
1:00:32
1 hour, 32 seconds
man, I tell you, it puts me in a dark place.  It really does because I don't want to think  
1:00:38
1 hour, 38 seconds
that but it's hard it's hard not to think that  when you look back at the timeline and there was  
1:00:44
1 hour, 44 seconds
lack of communication like I said you know lack of  equipment that's that's no problem you know that's  
1:00:50
1 hour, 50 seconds
just how it was not having one working camera out  there that's suspect your job for security you're  
1:00:56
1 hour, 56 seconds
supposed to have some type of thing but there's  all these questions me and my guys who worked out   there we all kind of joked around about that we're  just lab rats out here We joked around about that,  
1:01:06
1 hour, 1 minute, 6 seconds
but we never thought it was real. But I will  say in 2019, I met a a scientist in the basin  
1:01:14
1 hour, 1 minute, 14 seconds
and the first three things he said to me,  and this is in early 2019. He said to me,  
1:01:22
1 hour, 1 minute, 22 seconds
um, we had a private conversation. Actually, it  wasn't private. There was mother there was other   witnesses there. But the first thing he said to  me was, "Did I know about radiation out here on  
1:01:32
1 hour, 1 minute, 32 seconds
the property in Utah in the basin?" And I'm like,  "What? No." And then he said, "Did you know about  
1:01:40
1 hour, 1 minute, 40 seconds
$22 million?" And I was like, "No." And then the  last thing he said to me, and when he said this,  
1:01:46
1 hour, 1 minute, 46 seconds
my heart sunk into my stomach, he said, "You  know, how does it feel to know you're possibly  
1:01:50
1 hour, 1 minute, 50 seconds
a guinea pig in all this?" And I remember saying,  "If that's true, I don't feel very good about it."  
1:01:57
1 hour, 1 minute, 57 seconds
And then at that time my whole mind flipped  upside down. I'm like what the then like all  
1:02:04
1 hour, 2 minutes, 4 seconds
these memories started coming back and um I don't  know. It's I'm still left, you know, for I'll  
1:02:11
1 hour, 2 minutes, 11 seconds
be honest with you, Ryan. This whole thing about  me even coming out publicly in 2019 was probably  
1:02:15
1 hour, 2 minutes, 15 seconds
never supposed to happen. Um but I have questions  that need answering. And I feel like every single  
1:02:23
1 hour, 2 minutes, 23 seconds
time I open up a door, two or every time I close a  door, two more open up. And it just blows my mind.  
1:02:31
1 hour, 2 minutes, 31 seconds
It really does because I've served honorably for  this country. I've done I've I've I've sacrificed  
1:02:37
1 hour, 2 minutes, 37 seconds
everything and especially for the ranch. I have  I sacrificed, but my family has sacrificed. And I  
1:02:44
1 hour, 2 minutes, 44 seconds
will tell you if that's true, I don't I don't know  what to say really. It really uh I I don't have  
1:02:52
1 hour, 2 minutes, 52 seconds
a lot of words to say about it. Mhm. I'm still  trying I'm just trying to figure it out, you know,  
1:02:56
1 hour, 2 minutes, 56 seconds
as best I can. And I don't know, you know, meeting  people like uh James uh Kenan and Carl and some of  
1:03:07
1 hour, 3 minutes, 7 seconds
the people in the community online have really  helped me out a lot and if it wasn't for them,   I'd probably be in a pretty dark place. And then  I met Teras Matla obviously with the University of  
1:03:17
1 hour, 3 minutes, 17 seconds
Maryland and and that was a huge bonus because  I was able to document or I was able to donate  
1:03:23
1 hour, 3 minutes, 23 seconds
my entire skinwalker archive to the University  of Maryland. And for me, that was a big closure  
1:03:29
1 hour, 3 minutes, 29 seconds
moment for me because I was able to kind of lock  away that those memories and and and and some of  
1:03:35
1 hour, 3 minutes, 35 seconds
that stuff in in a in a place that will always be  there forever. And my kids can go back and view  
1:03:41
1 hour, 3 minutes, 41 seconds
that the photography and it's just awesome. You  know, to Matler with the University of Maryland,  
1:03:46
1 hour, 3 minutes, 46 seconds
um he really helped me out. And it's because it's  because Toas saw something online. He saw I had an   artistic eye and he also was like, "Whoa, this is  Skinwalker Ranch. Nobody has ever posted pictures  
1:03:56
1 hour, 3 minutes, 56 seconds
like this before on Skinwalker Ranch. And I did  it I post those pictures online because I want   to show people that it wasn't all scary. It was  all beautiful. It was there was some dark times  
1:04:06
1 hour, 4 minutes, 6 seconds
out there, but it's also some gorgeous times  out there. But for me, when I look back at my   photography, I look back at my photography now and  it puts me in that mind frame of being alone out  
1:04:16
1 hour, 4 minutes, 16 seconds
there and using my photography to kind of get  through the weeks and get through some of the   sketchy time because I'll tell you, walking from  homestead one all the way down to the Westgate  
1:04:25
1 hour, 4 minutes, 25 seconds
at night at 2:00 in the morning and you're by  yourself and you got a couple dogs with you.   There's some nights where you get to Homestead  2 and you feel like, you know what, something's  
1:04:35
1 hour, 4 minutes, 35 seconds
telling me not to keep going forward. I need to  go. And I would I would listen to my gut extent   all the time because I felt like you're always  being washed out there. Yeah. So I don't know. I  
1:04:44
1 hour, 4 minutes, 44 seconds
mean I don't have any ill feelings to my previous  employer. That shocks a lot of people. People  
1:04:50
1 hour, 4 minutes, 50 seconds
think that oh my god you should definitely have  you. Why? How's that going to help? Because if   you really talk about disclosure and discovering  the truth, I hate to say it, but it comes with  
1:05:00
1 hour, 5 minutes
sacrifices. It does. So in this situation, I  played my position of what I was supposed to do.  
1:05:08
1 hour, 5 minutes, 8 seconds
Other people played their position and that's how  these special access programs work. However, in   most special access programs, there's a constant  open form of communication where everybody is on  
1:05:18
1 hour, 5 minutes, 18 seconds
the same playing field and there's information  spreading very openly. Because in this situation  
1:05:24
1 hour, 5 minutes, 24 seconds
with Skin Walker, because there was a lack of  communication, most of the guys, including myself,   didn't report half the stuff that we experienced  because it seemed like nobody cared. That's the  
1:05:34
1 hour, 5 minutes, 34 seconds
truth. It seemed like nobody cared because we  would Why Why am I spending my There was a time  
1:05:41
1 hour, 5 minutes, 41 seconds
where I would be inside Homestead 2, sitting in  a lawn chair at 2:00 in the morning by myself,  
1:05:47
1 hour, 5 minutes, 47 seconds
trying to make contact with whatever out there.  And I remember one night thinking to myself,  
1:05:52
1 hour, 5 minutes, 52 seconds
what the hell am I doing? I I'm outgunned out  here and I'm like, you know, all these things  
1:05:58
1 hour, 5 minutes, 58 seconds
are playing in the back of your mind like, what  if a trespasser gets on the property and I'm not   the east gate to stop them and they get on here  and they vandalize or they steal something? At  
1:06:07
1 hour, 6 minutes, 7 seconds
the time we had the ranch managers on there, what  if somebody gets hurt? And then here's the best   part. So I'm in the homesteads and this is all  playing in the back of my mind. And I'm constantly  
1:06:16
1 hour, 6 minutes, 16 seconds
operating in the red zone. And then it's not  like I clock out and I go home or I go down to  
1:06:21
1 hour, 6 minutes, 21 seconds
a hotel then to go to sleep. No, I go to sleep at  Homestead 1 at Skinwalker Ranch. And I remember  
1:06:28
1 hour, 6 minutes, 28 seconds
every night closing my eyes thinking to myself,  I hope nobody gets on the property and puts a   bullet on my head because during my time during  my time we had legitimate threats from locals  
1:06:39
1 hour, 6 minutes, 39 seconds
that wanted to shoot one of us to prove that  we were that we were either cursed or a hybrid.   So all this is going in the back of your mind.  So psychologically you're just pegged out,  
1:06:49
1 hour, 6 minutes, 49 seconds
man. You're just like operating, you know, and  then all this stuff come all this stuff comes   out. TV shows come out, documentaries come out,  and I'm just sitting there like, are you kidding  
1:06:59
1 hour, 6 minutes, 59 seconds
me? Are you seriously kidding me? And I'll tell  you what, man, there's been about 15 times where  
1:07:05
1 hour, 7 minutes, 5 seconds
I've just about almost just packed everything  up, deleted all my accounts, and just let the  
1:07:12
1 hour, 7 minutes, 12 seconds
narrative play out. and say, I guess it'll be like  another MK Ultra deal, like when I'm 70 years old,  
1:07:18
1 hour, 7 minutes, 18 seconds
I'll find out what was going on at Skin Walker  Ranch, you know? I don't know. I have a lot of  
1:07:23
1 hour, 7 minutes, 23 seconds
unanswered questions and I'm I'm I'm p my patience  is is gone now. It really is. And I'm just trying  
1:07:33
1 hour, 7 minutes, 33 seconds
to close the door for my kids. That's it. I have  three young men I'm trying to raise. And to know  
1:07:38
1 hour, 7 minutes, 38 seconds
that my time on Skinwalker Ranch may have affected  my health negative where time is not taken away   from me because of my long-term exposure out  there. I will tell you that does not sit very well  
1:07:49
1 hour, 7 minutes, 49 seconds
with me. It I don't think it would for any father.  No, absolutely, man. I everything you have said  
1:07:57
1 hour, 7 minutes, 57 seconds
um I'm sure is resonating with a hell of a lot of  first of all veterans out there and second of all  
1:08:03
1 hour, 8 minutes, 3 seconds
just human beings is what you've done in sacrifice  for your country for um for the scientific  
1:08:11
1 hour, 8 minutes, 11 seconds
community supposedly that's what they wanted were  scientific answers and beyond. So um you know  
1:08:18
1 hour, 8 minutes, 18 seconds
before I move on here uh thank you thank you for  your service. Thank you for what you did on the  
1:08:23
1 hour, 8 minutes, 23 seconds
ranch. Thank you for um for opening yourself up to  that and making those sacrifices because I think  
1:08:30
1 hour, 8 minutes, 30 seconds
we are getting closer to answers and I'm happy you  didn't pack up and just leave cuz I do honestly  
1:08:35
1 hour, 8 minutes, 35 seconds
feel that your contribution to this skinwalker  mystery uh is essential showing the light. I think  
1:08:42
1 hour, 8 minutes, 42 seconds
again all we get is the spooky [ __ ] and the the  you know the really um sensational stuff and then  
1:08:49
1 hour, 8 minutes, 49 seconds
you have like you said with the uh the photo  exhibition at at the university uh that shows  
1:08:55
1 hour, 8 minutes, 55 seconds
how unbelievably beautiful this ranch and this  basin in this state are. So yeah, first of all,  
1:09:03
1 hour, 9 minutes, 3 seconds
thank you for all of that. I appreciate that. I  ran out of do. Um, and I'm not saying that my um,  
1:09:12
1 hour, 9 minutes, 12 seconds
you know, my my layer of skinwalker Ranch is the  right answer with with the Native American stuff.   I'm just saying to me personally, it's probably  the most important layer because I feel like it's  
1:09:22
1 hour, 9 minutes, 22 seconds
overlooked. But all the stuff that the new team's  doing with all the scientific stuff that they've  
1:09:28
1 hour, 9 minutes, 28 seconds
collected, it's unbelievable. I mean, I've been on  the I've been back on Skinwalker Ranch now several   times with or without the film crew. I've gone out  there on my own with and and met with the team and  
1:09:38
1 hour, 9 minutes, 38 seconds
helped them with other investigations and they've  shown me data and it blows me away the stuff   they've collected. You know, you got Eric Bart out  there with Brandon Fugle's team. That guy gets it  
1:09:49
1 hour, 9 minutes, 49 seconds
and he's invested his energy out there. He's out  there and he's not messing around. He doesn't care   about no TV show. I'll tell you that right now.  He does not care one single damn about a TV show.  
1:09:58
1 hour, 9 minutes, 58 seconds
He's out there really trying to figure out on a  scientific level what's going on out there. And   I think that's extremely important. And then you  have Thomas Winterton and Caleb Bench out there  
1:10:07
1 hour, 10 minutes, 7 seconds
that are locals and they're out there all the  time too. Those guys, they truly get it, you know,   and they put in that equity to understand and  they, you know, there's so many overlapping  
1:10:17
1 hour, 10 minutes, 17 seconds
layers with Skinwalker Ranch. It's just if there's  magnetic anomalies around there and maybe that's  
1:10:23
1 hour, 10 minutes, 23 seconds
what draw maybe that's what drew the natives out  there to begin with was those anomalies, you know,   um maybe that's what drew them out there to begin  with. And there's all kinds of stuff. I mean,  
1:10:33
1 hour, 10 minutes, 33 seconds
I'm just one piece of the puzzle. I'm not  saying I'm the skin walker expert by any means,   but I just feel like u I have some very important  data and I like to I appreciate your time for me  
1:10:43
1 hour, 10 minutes, 43 seconds
to allow me to share some of that data with other  people that might have these questions as well.   Well, Chris, I've got some listener questions for  you, man, if you're willing to stick around. Some  
1:10:52
1 hour, 10 minutes, 52 seconds
people really wanted to uh ask you some burning  questions here. Is that cool? Absolutely. Awesome.  
1:10:59
1 hour, 10 minutes, 59 seconds
Um I'm going to start with Melanie. Melanie is one  of our Patreon subscribers and our patron members  
1:11:04
1 hour, 11 minutes, 4 seconds
actually get priority to ask our guests questions.  Um, so she's got a really good one here. She says,  
1:11:10
1 hour, 11 minutes, 10 seconds
"The burning question for me is, what does  Chris think is really happening at the ranch?   Current research being done seems to lean towards  portals. What does he think about that?" Yeah,  
1:11:20
1 hour, 11 minutes, 20 seconds
this whole portal aspect, you know, um not only  are we hearing that like maybe this is where the   UAP are coming in and out of, but also that the  tribes have used these portals as well. They're  
1:11:31
1 hour, 11 minutes, 31 seconds
part of the petetroglyphs. So, what do you make of  that whole aspect of this, the portals, right? I I  
1:11:37
1 hour, 11 minutes, 37 seconds
think that the portals is a good possibility  because not only did um the the current team  
1:11:45
1 hour, 11 minutes, 45 seconds
out there now has documented some pretty weird  anomalies in the skies and stuff, but also NIDS  
1:11:50
1 hour, 11 minutes, 50 seconds
uh said he saw portal stuff activity out there as  well. And uh being out there myself, I never saw  
1:11:56
1 hour, 11 minutes, 56 seconds
anything like that. But going back to some of my  old pictures, you know, I've got like 3,000 images   of the ranch during that time. I've tried to kind  of go back and and uh see if I missed something.  
1:12:06
1 hour, 12 minutes, 6 seconds
That was one of the reasons why I donated those  uh pictures of the archive to the University of   Maryland so more eyes can see that that uh those  pictures. But um I think everything is Native  
1:12:16
1 hour, 12 minutes, 16 seconds
Americanbased in my personal opinion. Um the  evidence is, you know, follow the data. Well, the  
1:12:22
1 hour, 12 minutes, 22 seconds
data is all around the whole basin. It's not just  Skinwalker Ranch. It's the whole basin. And uh  
1:12:28
1 hour, 12 minutes, 28 seconds
there's there's petetroglyphs uh in McKe Springs  that show portal activity or portals and things  
1:12:34
1 hour, 12 minutes, 34 seconds
coming out of portals. Um so when you see that  you wonder, you know, what the hell is going on.   Um Skin Walker Ranch, it might be another location  where people were drawn to to see these things or  
1:12:44
1 hour, 12 minutes, 44 seconds
have experiences. They know the Fremont Indians  that were there, they were there for a thousand   years and like fell off the map. But people  locals say that the Fremonts almost appeared  
1:12:54
1 hour, 12 minutes, 54 seconds
out of nowhere. So, and also giants. There's talk  about giants coming through portals and stuff,  
1:13:00
1 hour, 13 minutes
and that's more James Kenan's expertise. I  would highly recommend you have him on the   show. He knows a lot more about that stuff. Uh my  my primary focus is obviously the Native American  
1:13:09
1 hour, 13 minutes, 9 seconds
artifacts and the history and the photography and  and that type of stuff. What uh what were some  
1:13:16
1 hour, 13 minutes, 16 seconds
of those artifacts that you came across? Um would  you mind sharing maybe a couple of those with us?  
1:13:21
1 hour, 13 minutes, 21 seconds
I found it. Yeah. The first artifact I found was  in the Eastern Valley. It was actually a knife  
1:13:27
1 hour, 13 minutes, 27 seconds
blade. And how I found it was bizarre. I had this  routine that I would go with the dogs and we'd  
1:13:33
1 hour, 13 minutes, 33 seconds
walk around the whole entire property and we'd end  up and have lunch in the eastern valley on this  
1:13:39
1 hour, 13 minutes, 39 seconds
rock table out there. And I would feed the dogs um  food and water and I would kind of sit there and  
1:13:45
1 hour, 13 minutes, 45 seconds
just absorb the area. And I laid my backpack down  and uh I went to pick up my backpack and I must  
1:13:53
1 hour, 13 minutes, 53 seconds
have missed it, but laying next to my backpack  was a silver um granite arrow head. I'm like,  
1:13:58
1 hour, 13 minutes, 58 seconds
"What the hell?" And I picked it up and I'm like,  "Whoa." And my whole mind kind of shifted and  
1:14:04
1 hour, 14 minutes, 4 seconds
I kind of do a grid pattern around the property.  I'd find, you know, axe heads, um grindstones. Um,  
1:14:11
1 hour, 14 minutes, 11 seconds
u AGOT is very important to the to the locals that  were out there and the indigenous tribes before  
1:14:16
1 hour, 14 minutes, 16 seconds
that because Uagot is what was used to make tools  and weapons and stuff like that. So when you find  
1:14:22
1 hour, 14 minutes, 22 seconds
U AGOT deposits, you're going to find flaking and  and stuff like that. And bottle hollow has a lot  
1:14:27
1 hour, 14 minutes, 27 seconds
of U AGOT around it as well. And so I found  another area um is actually a hollowed rock  
1:14:34
1 hour, 14 minutes, 34 seconds
and um I found a bunch of sweat stones around this  rock. So that area was used for ceremon ceremonial  
1:14:41
1 hour, 14 minutes, 41 seconds
purposes and that's pretty significant because  the area kind of showed signs of maybe one or  
1:14:46
1 hour, 14 minutes, 46 seconds
two people living there like it was nomadic.  So maybe a skinwalker, I don't know. Um and  
1:14:53
1 hour, 14 minutes, 53 seconds
then I found stuff in in in Blind Frog Ranch. I  found stuff pretty much anywhere in the basin.  
1:14:59
1 hour, 14 minutes, 59 seconds
If I truck out, my eyes are always on the ground  looking because my grandfather back here in Kansas   when I was a kid, when I was a young kid, um he  would take me out to these local fields and rivers  
1:15:09
1 hour, 15 minutes, 9 seconds
and streams and he would get permission from all  the land owners because he used to work for the   rock quarry. So he knew all the local farmers  and so he would get permission to go look for  
1:15:18
1 hour, 15 minutes, 18 seconds
rocks on their property. And I would go out with  them every Sunday and he would show me what to   look for and the dos and don't and the dos and  don'ts. You know, if there was a barrel site,  
1:15:26
1 hour, 15 minutes, 26 seconds
you don't mess with it. Um, and other things, what  to look for, areas of interest, and my grandfather   really is the one who trained me to look for that  stuff. I didn't really put it together until I got  
1:15:35
1 hour, 15 minutes, 35 seconds
to the ranch. And, uh, yeah, I found all kinds of  stuff. It all happened for a reason. I love that.  
1:15:42
1 hour, 15 minutes, 42 seconds
Um Amy Amy on Patreon also asks uh you know a lot  of the experiments this this season on the show  
1:15:50
1 hour, 15 minutes, 50 seconds
um we had evidence of possible like cloaking  almost like invisibility you know in the one  
1:15:57
1 hour, 15 minutes, 57 seconds
of the last episodes of the TV show um you know  they set these rockets up to try to gather data  
1:16:03
1 hour, 16 minutes, 3 seconds
and it's almost as if like these rockets bounced  off and went in another direction in the triangle  
1:16:09
1 hour, 16 minutes, 9 seconds
this area that you're very familiar with. And um  I I guess Amy wants to know uh any evidence when  
1:16:16
1 hour, 16 minutes, 16 seconds
you were there or anything you heard about with  like cloaking technology or possible invisibility  
1:16:22
1 hour, 16 minutes, 22 seconds
stuff whether in the sky or on the ground? No.  No. But I mean, you always get that sensation like  
1:16:29
1 hour, 16 minutes, 29 seconds
you're being watched, you know? Right. It always  felt like you're being watched. And sometimes it   wasn't just while you're out walking around. There  was a lot of times I'd be at home or I would be at  
1:16:38
1 hour, 16 minutes, 38 seconds
I'd be at Homestead once skyping with my wife  and um I would feel like somebody was watching  
1:16:43
1 hour, 16 minutes, 43 seconds
me inside the homestead. It used to freak me out,  but then after a while you get kind of used to it.  
1:16:50
1 hour, 16 minutes, 50 seconds
There was one time, I'll never forget this,  and I've never I never mentioned this before,   but there was one time I was, it was in the  daytime, and I was walking from Homestead 2 down  
1:16:59
1 hour, 16 minutes, 59 seconds
to Homestead 3, and uh right in between there, I  felt like something was in the southern tree line,  
1:17:08
1 hour, 17 minutes, 8 seconds
like staring at me, stalking at me to the point  where I actually turned around and faced it and  
1:17:13
1 hour, 17 minutes, 13 seconds
was like, "Something's in that tree line." And  I sat there for like 5 10 minutes with like this  
1:17:20
1 hour, 17 minutes, 20 seconds
hand like this my maybe it was my imagination or  something I don't know but it was weird but I felt   like something was always there. I know some of  my previous colleagues who worked there uh none of  
1:17:30
1 hour, 17 minutes, 30 seconds
them ever reported that stuff either. So but then  again we didn't have cameras and stuff out there.  
1:17:36
1 hour, 17 minutes, 36 seconds
It was just us. So that baffles my mind man that  h god don't get me started. and the fact that like  
1:17:44
1 hour, 17 minutes, 44 seconds
you had a better camera personally than we won't  go there. That's that's another conversation. Um  
1:17:52
1 hour, 17 minutes, 52 seconds
uh moving back to uh I guess Area 51 for a  moment. Um I don't ideology on Twitter asks Chris,  
1:17:59
1 hour, 17 minutes, 59 seconds
did you ever come into contact with or become  aware of anything that is definitely man-made  
1:18:05
1 hour, 18 minutes, 5 seconds
but would be perceived by general populace as  extraterrestrial? Um anything you could share?  
1:18:12
1 hour, 18 minutes, 12 seconds
I understand if not but yeah yeah yeah anything  like that man where it's like dude definitely  
1:18:17
1 hour, 18 minutes, 17 seconds
ours but you yeah yeah yeah because we always hear  that idea of like anything going on out there with  
1:18:24
1 hour, 18 minutes, 24 seconds
black projects is like 40 we hear about it the  public hears about it's 30 40 years later yeah  
1:18:31
1 hour, 18 minutes, 31 seconds
I mean yeah look at the F17 project you know the  F17 project was years later than the public knew  
1:18:37
1 hour, 18 minutes, 37 seconds
about it so it makes you wonder you know what do  we have in our inventory you Yeah. Um uh yeah,  
1:18:44
1 hour, 18 minutes, 44 seconds
can I confirm or deny? I mean, honestly, I don't  I don't know. I don't know there I don't know.  
1:18:52
1 hour, 18 minutes, 52 seconds
Okay. I I seen some pretty interesting stuff  and I guess I can just leave it at that. I'm  
1:18:57
1 hour, 18 minutes, 57 seconds
just glad we live in the United States and we have  technology that will keep us safe hopefully. So,  
1:19:03
1 hour, 19 minutes, 3 seconds
it's about all I can say. I Hey, that gives me  a little comfort knowing that. Um, EMP Recker  
1:19:10
1 hour, 19 minutes, 10 seconds
on Twitter asks, "Was there ever any experiment  that went wrong at Skinw Walker Ranch where like,  
1:19:18
1 hour, 19 minutes, 18 seconds
you know, it was like, okay, we got to we got to  not mess with this or like abort mission on this."  
1:19:25
1 hour, 19 minutes, 25 seconds
Anything like that? Um, besides myself being the  experiment. Kidding, joking. Um, no. Semi- joking.  
1:19:33
1 hour, 19 minutes, 33 seconds
Yeah. Yeah. Right. Now, we had we did a remote  viewing experiment once and I knew it kind of got  
1:19:40
1 hour, 19 minutes, 40 seconds
some negative feedback from another officer. Um,  I never knew I never knew the end result from that  
1:19:47
1 hour, 19 minutes, 47 seconds
experiment. I wish I did. Um, other experiments,  I guess you could call them experiment was  
1:19:54
1 hour, 19 minutes, 54 seconds
sitting inside Homestead 2, uh, trying to make  contact with the paranormal or whatever. Um,  
1:20:00
1 hour, 20 minutes
that was pretty dicey. I know one guy literally  drove himself insane doing that. So that that was  
1:20:07
1 hour, 20 minutes, 7 seconds
a big red flag. That's about all I can remember.  Okay. You know. Okay. But it wasn't I mean we we  
1:20:14
1 hour, 20 minutes, 14 seconds
did experiments but it wasn't that many. You know  I I came in in 2010 kind of the very end of of the  
1:20:21
1 hour, 20 minutes, 21 seconds
project. You know there was only a small handful  of us out there operating. So I know maybe guys  
1:20:28
1 hour, 20 minutes, 28 seconds
before me maybe did more stuff. I don't know. I  know I've reached out to some of the guys who were   before they were out there before me and it was  pretty much kind of the same thing. So, I don't I  
1:20:37
1 hour, 20 minutes, 37 seconds
don't know. Okay. Yeah, that's totally fair. Um,  Robert on Facebook asks, "Are you familiar with  
1:20:44
1 hour, 20 minutes, 44 seconds
any teleportation technology such as jump rooms,  portals, stargates? We kind of touched on that  
1:20:51
1 hour, 20 minutes, 51 seconds
with the portal thing, but um yeah, in your, you  know, your experience working at these top secret  
1:20:57
1 hour, 20 minutes, 57 seconds
locations and stuff, was that ever conversation or  are we still nowhere near that sort of technology?  
1:21:04
1 hour, 21 minutes, 4 seconds
I have I honestly don't know. I mean, yeah,  I I have no idea. I There's some very smart  
1:21:11
1 hour, 21 minutes, 11 seconds
people that work at the test site in 51 that are  very very smart, very intelligent. So, who who  
1:21:18
1 hour, 21 minutes, 18 seconds
knows? I don't know. I I can't confirm because  I I'm only like to say stuff that I can prove,   you know, or second second witness or something,  but I never see anything in person like that. No.  
1:21:28
1 hour, 21 minutes, 28 seconds
Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that's totally fair. Uh the one  revolution on Twitter asks, um, does S4 exist?  
1:21:38
1 hour, 21 minutes, 38 seconds
This supposed location in a hanger out there at  Groom Lake that Bob Lazar has talked about. Um, I  
1:21:45
1 hour, 21 minutes, 45 seconds
guess to kind of play off of that, this whole idea  of, you know, Area 51 in general, it's such a part  
1:21:52
1 hour, 21 minutes, 52 seconds
of mythology now. You can go to the gates, get  a selfie. You had this storm Area 51 thing. So,  
1:22:00
1 hour, 22 minutes
the it it to me that just screams anything really  sensitive that was going on there was probably  
1:22:07
1 hour, 22 minutes, 7 seconds
moved somewhere else. I could be completely off on  that, but um, yeah. What do you make of the claims  
1:22:14
1 hour, 22 minutes, 14 seconds
of this S4 location? Does that resonate at all  with you? And also underground facilities? I mean,  
1:22:22
1 hour, 22 minutes, 22 seconds
I'm sure we have tons of those in the United  States. Um, what is your best guess of what Area  
1:22:27
1 hour, 22 minutes, 27 seconds
52 might be, I guess. So, yeah, two-prong question  there, I guess. Yeah, I've never seen personally  
1:22:35
1 hour, 22 minutes, 35 seconds
S4. I It wouldn't surprise me if it exists. it  would not surprise me one bit because the the  
1:22:41
1 hour, 22 minutes, 41 seconds
site is so big. There's so much areas to cover.  Um, and there's some areas, believe it or not,  
1:22:47
1 hour, 22 minutes, 47 seconds
we're not even allowed to access even if it works  security and and and police out there. There's  
1:22:52
1 hour, 22 minutes, 52 seconds
some areas that are so so uh secret that you can't  even go on yourself with a Q clearance. Wow. Um,  
1:22:59
1 hour, 22 minutes, 59 seconds
so yeah, I mean there's I mean there's so much  stuff online you can look at for the Nevada test  
1:23:04
1 hour, 23 minutes, 4 seconds
site. There's the UNA uh hanger that's, you know,  not 1,000 ft underground laboratory. There's all  
1:23:11
1 hour, 23 minutes, 11 seconds
kinds of stuff, you know. I actually I have a  whole bunch of uh working there. I took a bunch   of pamp they're free pamphlets about the history  of the Nevada Test Site. Really cool stuff. And I  
1:23:22
1 hour, 23 minutes, 22 seconds
think you can go online and find a lot of stuff  and it probably surprised a lot of people some   of the stuff that's available online about um  Nevada Test Site and Area 51 too. But it probably  
1:23:32
1 hour, 23 minutes, 32 seconds
does exist S4. I'm assuming it probably does.  There's a lot of a lot of weird stuff out there,  
1:23:37
1 hour, 23 minutes, 37 seconds
so who knows? But I've never personally  been there myself. But the next Area 52 H
1:23:48
1 hour, 23 minutes, 48 seconds
Wyoming, I'll say Wyoming.  Okay, just leave it at that or
1:23:57
1 hour, 23 minutes, 57 seconds
there you go, guys. Everyone start going to  Wyoming and uh start from there. That's just my   guess. I mean, there's other places, too. I mean,  I don't know. I mean, yeah, of course. Who knows?  
1:24:07
1 hour, 24 minutes, 7 seconds
That's totally fair. Um, awesome, man. Well, hey,  I want to give you um these final moments here to  
1:24:14
1 hour, 24 minutes, 14 seconds
uh one one of the best quotes that I pulled  from something you said on the Skinwalker  
1:24:20
1 hour, 24 minutes, 20 seconds
Ranch television show, and Brandon Fugal even  tweeted this out, a quote from you, because it  
1:24:25
1 hour, 24 minutes, 25 seconds
was it encompasses everything. And you mentioned  it earlier in this conversation of this is bigger   than a scientific experiment, bigger than a  government contract. It's bigger than all of  
1:24:35
1 hour, 24 minutes, 35 seconds
us. So, I'd love to know what does that truly mean  to you? And what are some of the final words you  
1:24:41
1 hour, 24 minutes, 41 seconds
want to leave our audience with with all of this?  Whether it's the UFO topic, Skinwalker Ranch,  
1:24:48
1 hour, 24 minutes, 48 seconds
um yeah, what do you want to leave people with uh  before we we wrap things up here? Yeah. Um, yeah,  
1:24:55
1 hour, 24 minutes, 55 seconds
I do believe the ranch, the whole Uenta basin  is bigger than what people realize. You know,  
1:25:01
1 hour, 25 minutes, 1 second
there's real there's real history out there. You  know, we call the paranormal, the phenomenon,  
1:25:07
1 hour, 25 minutes, 7 seconds
when in reality, it's considered culture and  indigenous tribes. It's part of the culture.  
1:25:13
1 hour, 25 minutes, 13 seconds
Like I said, we're behind we're behind the curve  here of understanding um all that stuff. So,  
1:25:20
1 hour, 25 minutes, 20 seconds
I really believe the the Native American history  is the most important aspect in my opinion. And  
1:25:28
1 hour, 25 minutes, 28 seconds
that's just because how much I've invested looking  for that type of stuff. And I think that's what I  
1:25:33
1 hour, 25 minutes, 33 seconds
mean when I say it's bigger than all of us because  there is stuff that's out there that's just really  
1:25:40
1 hour, 25 minutes, 40 seconds
blows your mind like what is going on? What what  happened out here? There's so many overlapping   layers of not not just the Native American  aspect, but there's like the meteorite strikes,  
1:25:49
1 hour, 25 minutes, 49 seconds
the gilsonite, the magnetic anomalies. Uh it seems  like that whole section of Utah is just like a  
1:25:57
1 hour, 25 minutes, 57 seconds
paranormal hot spot of all kinds of stuff, but a  lot of it all relates back to Native American. And  
1:26:02
1 hour, 26 minutes, 2 seconds
there's been people who said, "Well, how come  other uh Indian reservations aren't haunted or  
1:26:08
1 hour, 26 minutes, 8 seconds
report this stuff?" And the truth is they do.  Yeah, there's several. There's stuff on the   There's some reservations that report this  stuff. I mean, my mom was born and raised  
1:26:18
1 hour, 26 minutes, 18 seconds
on or she was raised my mom was actually born  in Roswell Air Force Base. My grandfather was  
1:26:23
1 hour, 26 minutes, 23 seconds
working at at Roswell Air Force Base back in the  day. But my my mom actually grew up there. Yeah,  
1:26:30
1 hour, 26 minutes, 30 seconds
I I was thinking about that today. My grandfather  worked at Roswell. He was in the Air Force and my   mom was b born on Roswell Air Force Base. But  my mom uh was also raised around uh a lot of  
1:26:41
1 hour, 26 minutes, 41 seconds
uh reservations because my great-grandfather used  to be the subcontractor for for building schools  
1:26:47
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and churches and stuff. So she was raised he  was raised in the four corners and all those  
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tribes talk about UFOs, star people, skin walkers,  werewolves, whatever you want to call it. And I  
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don't know why that's just ignored. You know, it  seems like I don't know. It's it's not it's just  
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the more pieces to the puzzle I guess you know but  for me that's what I think is the most important   you know. Yeah. One of the most important aspects  I hope people take more time into like really  
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diving back into those cultures and understanding  the people who are here before us you know and uh  
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I think that's important. Absolutely. I love that  and you've highlighted that so well with the uh  
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photography project that you did. So, in the final  moments here, Chris, um can you tell us where we  
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can find your portfolio of all the incredible  photos you have? Cuz I'm going to share some of  
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those in the post edit here um with the audience  if that's okay with you. And um tell us a little  
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about I know you have a film project that might  be coming up. If there's anything you can share,   um I'd love to give you that opportunity. Um yeah,  let us know where we can find all your work if you  
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don't mind. Yeah. uh Teras Matla, you know, he's  the director for the University of Maryland. You   know, he reached out to me a couple years ago  and we had a start we started a conversation and  
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um he had a you know he at first he asked you know  to buy some prints. I said no I'll just donate all  
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of them to the university because I wanted to  get more eyes on to the situation you know with  
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my photography. Um but that archive is online at  um uh skinwalker ranch uhportfolio.org or is where  
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you can find that. And there's going to be a mini  documentary attached to that, a short one. And  
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it's going to have uh my own story in it basically  and highlighting some of my most favorite pictures  
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in it and some of the flip photography that I do  as well where I take images and I flip them and  
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create like UFOs out of me rocks and um stuff like  that. And um so yeah, and I have a website too,  
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chrisbartell.com. I don't update as much as I used  to, but I probably should do a new rehaul and put  
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some more pictures on there and stuff. But you can  find some of my other projects I've worked on and   some of my old uh Las Vegas portfolio because I  have a huge Las Vegas portfolio of like 20,000  
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images. I mean, I have Oh, wow. you know, 20  plus years in Las Vegas. I kind of treated  
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uh Los like Ancel Adams is my one of my favorite  photographers. So, I wanted to create this  
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approach to Las Vegas, like if Anel Adams came to  Las Vegas, how would he photograph Las Vegas? So,  
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a lot of my a lot of my Las Vegas pictures are  in black and white, which are kind of cool,   or have that, you know, feel to them? And so, uh,  yeah, some of my Vegas pictures are on there as  
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well. And and I'm still going out to this day  and going out and photographing, um, you know,  
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places in Utah. I'm going back to Las Vegas here  pretty soon. And so I can't It's been a couple   years since I've been out there. So Las Vegas  is one of those unique cities that every week  
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the whole landscape changes. So, you know, the  downtown uh the the canvas is always changing. So,  
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I'm always going down there finding new things to  photograph and stuff. And there is I have a whole  
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uh graffiti art gallery of Las Vegas spanning  15 20 years. I used to go to like some of the  
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worst part parts of Las Vegas and photograph  some amazing graffiti pieces down there. Yeah,  
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I should probably share more of that stuff online,  too. I think people might like to see that. That's   really cool, man. I I love that imagery of the  canvas is always changing. Like, that's perfect  
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way to look at all of this, I think, is we're all  growing. We're all learning. We're all um we're  
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all part of some grand uh performance piece or art  exhibition that's yet to be fully uh realized, but  
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I think we're we're getting there, man. and I'm so  happy you did come forward. Um, this I I I'm going  
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to say this on the record. This has been one of my  favorite conversations on Somewhere in the Skies   since the very beginning. So, um, I appreciate  that. I got to thank you, man. Like, you you  
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shared a lot with us tonight that you didn't have  to. So, I truly appreciate that. Yeah. You know,  
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I think I feel like, like I said, I'm just trying  to really close a chapter and um and doing some of  
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these shows helps me talk and vent a little bit.  And I don't mean to come across like uh arrogant  
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or Mr. Knowit all. And I I'm just I'm trying to  be genuine in in my approach. And uh that's that's  
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kind of really it for me. you know, I at some  point I want to just kind of close this chapter   all together and focus on my new stuff that I got  going on. Like I'm still going out to the basin  
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and and I'm still continuing my own data research  on my own with other guys, too. And u we're  
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finding some really cool stuff and and so and I'm  still going back to Skinwalker Ranch occasionally  
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and and showing them stuff and they're showing  me stuff and and yeah, so it's it's been a real  
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pleasure uh being able to share time with you  and I I really enjoy my time here. So, thank   you for giving me the platform and opportunity  to talk a little bit about uh my past and what  
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I've done. My absolute pleasure and thank you for  your service, Chris. Oh, thank you. Appreciate it.