today on the show we welcome back  internet Pioneer computer scientist   venture capitalist author UFO researcher  and astronomer jacqu valet to talk about  
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his sixth and final volume of his Forbidden  Science book series subtitled scattered
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castles you are now somewhere in  the skies with your host Ryan spray
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you know something happened in uh in Washington  yesterday yes are are is that something you'd  
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like to talk about with um Anna representative  Anna Luna um reading that statement that um Paul  
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investigations would be begun to reveal a number  of of statements and number of facts about the  
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assassination of President Kennedy about two  other major historical things and of course  
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the the problem of identify flying objects right  so that that being said uh I think my my my book  
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comes at the right time to to help inform the um  you know the proceedings um because we as as you  
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know U faul and science talks about what we did  in terms of the the research with bigo and and  
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their bass and uh and so on uh and uh the research  that I continued to do after that with in Brazil  
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and Argentina and other places where I wanted to  go back and get additional information so I think  
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those are those are the new the the new things  absolutely well that's a perfect place I think  
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jacqu to start so I will officially welcome you  to the show welcome back to somewhere in the skies  
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it's been a while I believe I had just actually  moved here to Scotland uh the day I moved here  
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is the day I got to my first ever interview with  you so that was a memorable moment and now we are  
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some two years later having this conversation with  your brand new book Forbidden Science 6 scattered  
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castles and we were just talking in the pre amble  there about what happened yesterday in Washington  
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I do want to Circle back to that but sh um before  we do that um let's let's talk about the brand new  
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book if you don't mind this just released recently  you can uh purchase it online we will put links to  
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that in our show notes as well but uh yes first  and foremost welcome back to the show thank you  
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thank you for having me it's my pleasure as  always uh the the the subtitle of the book  
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really caught my attention so you know very simple  question for you scattered castles what is the the  
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meaning behind the subtitle of Forbidden Science  six if you don't mind it it's a designation for  
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um a repository of classified um files um the the  name itself is not classified otherwise I couldn't  
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use it on on the cover um but this is where you  go if you want to find out if um if there is a  
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specific project on a particular topic and um  it's used of course primarily by um people who  
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are classified secret or top secret uh have have  the access and the these names U these classified  
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projects in the US always use two words that are  picked at random by a computer so you don't know  
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you know you don't always uh um you don't know  what What will what will come up and I thought  
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that that that configuration of scattered castles  was a perfect title for my for my book because we  
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have little castles that are um institutions that  are keeping different parts of the Enigma and they  
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are scattered all over the globe and uh they they  they need at some point we need to communicate  
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with them interesting that that actually reminds  me of the recent Revelations brought forward at  
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the most recent Congressional UFO hearing of  this program uh allegedly called Immaculate  
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constellation so you know everyone is speculating  what do these what do these mean so I'm glad you  
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sort of clarified that for me that it there's not  necessarily a specific meaning behind it within  
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the government let's say but uh it's the meaning  you give it such as the subtitle of your book  
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and what that means for Forbidden Science right  well um most um classified projects um have two  
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you know two words and uh those words are picked  at random so the this is just the repository um  
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Immaculate constellation I I think was a specific  specific classified program okay interesting  
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interesting um well so you you mentioned these  different institutions classified programs now  
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Forbidden Science 6 really starts with you having  sort of this uh I I guess you would say a profound  
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Revelation that the work you're working on this  classified uh program uh wasn't really unraveling  
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the mystery as you had hoped in terms of the  approaches that were being taken and whatnot  
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and this would eventually lead you to uh globally  begin to explore the phenomena in many different  
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ways travel all across South America Europe  uh Russia even to try to continue to unravel  
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these Mysteries so I guess my first question  for you would be what was that program if you  
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don't mind uh giving us any information you can  on what that program was and uh where did you go  
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so uh I think a lot it's a lot of it is known  now there have been several several books already  
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published on the program itself and and those  books were U touching on information that had  
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been de Declassified you know the books were  reviewed and published with the understanding  
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that this was ready to be released uh there are  still parts of the program that have not been  
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released that are still covered by you know CL  they are still classified including the part that  
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I was partially responsible for which was the  development of the database um a large amount  
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of and again some of the the books already  published have described what what I did and  
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what the project continued to do um but the the  content is still classified so I'm not at Liberty  
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to discuss it the I believe that eventually all  of that should be open certainly now that the the  
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you know the the the Trump Administration wants  to see things in the open I think it it could be  
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open there are several exceptions to that the  the files that we developed contained a large  
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number of medical records those medical records um  currently you know should be kept classified but  
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they are also protected in the US by a regulation  for privacy of the patients so the so you know if  
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if you you said you had an operation uh I have no  right to ask for the records from that operation  
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it's private to you and and your insurance company  and your doctors so we we have a large number of  
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cases where the Witnesses were injured where the  witnesses saw a doctor uh or were were treated  
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including some cases of people on the ranch on  the uh you know Nevada on the Utah Ranch and um  
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those should not be um public uh until they can  be uh sanitized by typically removing the name  
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of the patient from the FES and then they can be  that's what the french do and the French files are  
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completely available they are you know on put  on the internet but the the the privacy of the  
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witnesses even even those who are not medic know  medically related but the privacy of the witnesses  
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is preserved and very often they uh change the  the names of the location so that the location  
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itself is is preserved now if you want to know  more then you have a good scientific reason to go  
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more to know more uh that can be made available  and I don't see why we cannot do the same thing  
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in the US eventually but I would be very concerned  if those files were released because the of of the  
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impact on the on the patients or the witnesses  themselves right exactly and you know we did  
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have a member of the security team that worked on  the ranch on our show uh a gentleman Chris Bartell  
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uh who did have you know alleged physiological  effects after being on the ranch uh and such  
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things but however like you mentioned you know  those things are ethically uh cannot be shared  
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at least yet yet this is the type of information  that scientists or you know people in the medical  
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field that might want to look into the effects  of UAP on human beings uh the type of information  
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they would want so you're sort of caught in this  this like Catch 22 of we want the information but  
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it's not available and I can understand how  that could be frustrating to say the least uh  
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physical injuries that's another topic that  you explored in the book when you went to  
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uh you know I I guess I'll point out specifically  Brazil you know so many cases out of Brazil where  
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physical injuries people were harmed uh uh even  some died from some of these encounters you've  
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investigated that throughout the years now I  guess my question for you is uh do you think this  
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is intentional on behalf of the source of these  phenomena or is this just you know happen stance  
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in terms of our interaction with these phenomena  where do you lay on the physical effects on human  
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beings many of the traumatic injuries um happened  in South America and there there seems to be a  
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cultural bius there where the the interactions  are much more um violent um and where I mean those  
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those are fairly well documented now as you know  I've gone uh four times in to Argentina four times  
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in to Brazil uh always with people who spoke the  local languages and knew the the areas and know we  
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formed a team to go there to overcome the the the  cultural differences and there we you know I I I  
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looked into and I published a number of cases of U  casualty of death in Brazil and cases where people  
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were were injured uh I have published photographs  of some of the injuries uh both on on male and and  
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female patients um and uh to some extent those had  been followed up and the um we need to do the same  
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thing in the United States under standards that  are good medical standards the uh the same thing  
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has happened in France no death to my knowledge  in France but many cases of of injuries and there  
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there is one thing I can talk about um you know  about the the project we we had in Nevada um the
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uh the the [Music] concern that I have is that  there were a number of stove pipes there were you  
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know people looking at the physics people looking  at the biology people looking at the sociology or  
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the messages all the technical aspects all the uh  the uh analysis of the of the residue analysis of  
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archetypes and so on as you know I've I've done  some of that myself with uh Dr noran at Stanford  
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Dr Sto at Stanford and and others and I've shared  some of that with my my friends and colleagues in  
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France where where I am now they've given me  some of the some of the material from K cases  
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in France that I've taken to analyze in the US  and vice versa I mean that's the way science has  
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to work it's not just one measurement you have  to replicate measurements in different lbs and  
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with different equipment the overall what I  can say I'm I'm very proud of the work that  
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our team did um under you know Mr biger and and  uh and bass and bigo Aerospace Space Systems and  
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before and the nids I think the the the the team  did a great job um I think there were brilliant  
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people involved in all those areas in physics and  um in in biology and and other areas and it was  
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well run the problem of that I discovered you  know with the classified project is that there  
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is very little sharing once we get started with  the the the different parts of the team so I've  
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discovered since the project was essentially cut  off and terminated uh it was terminated after only  
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two years the project should have been a fiveyear  project and we had of course you know the work we  
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were doing had a a specific program in steps to go  into implementing Artificial Intelligence on top  
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of the database that we built um which was really  a data warehouse with 260,000 cases from all over  
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the world and I I brought in my fives into that  to get the whole the whole thing started so a  
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lot of the cases were cases that I already knew  that were in an unclassified category and then  
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it it became part of the data warehouse which  was classified and still is um I discovered  
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since the project termination that some of  the people who were using the database were  
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interested in extending the the range of the  data in areas where I had data that wasn't in  
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the project and I never knew that they needed it  now that's that has to do with the the way those  
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classified programs are run and it makes sense if  you you're developing say um a new satellite and  
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the satellite has five components you know an  optical component an electronic component and  
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so so the optical people work by themselves and  they have you know some standards they have to  
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meet and the electrical people uh or the radio  people have their own standard and they work  
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against those standards and then somebody puts it  all together and they launch the rocket okay and  
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that's fine um but and the data goes to different  places but in what we did we did you know overall  
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research on a very complex set of phenomena where  we should have been able to communicate and the  
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communication was to a large extent uh did not  happen uh for example uh the the people who were  
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primarily interested in the medical data were not  briefed on the trips that the team took to Brazil  
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to investigate some of the cases in Brazil so  there was a a lot of information that was lost now  
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I had gone to Brazil three times and in in the new  book you know in book number six of forbidden Son  
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science uh it talks about my going back to Brazil  now to to find out what was missing from the the  
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research that was done by bass and I I was able to  reconstruct some some of the missing parts uh by  
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going there myself with but um I I went there with  Brazilians and with Americans who had worked in  
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Brazil spoke Portuguese and so on and had access  to the things I was interested in so I knew where  
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I was going and I knew there was information where  I was going and that's what's in the book uh I did  
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the same thing in Argentina and um came discovered  that in Argentina there were uh um samples that Dr  
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sturak at Stanford had never had never known about  we had very very little information you know just  
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little very small pieces of of material we could  work with at Stanford but I came back with a lot  
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more um material from Argentina uh that that  we're now working on in the lab so the those  
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things have to continue and they don't need to  be classified frankly and I'm delighted that now  
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the new Administration in Washington wants to  open the windows and the doors and let people  
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communicate and especially let let scientists  uh communicate um on the record uh the way it  
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should be yeah swing those doors wide open I hear  you shock um well okay so Argentina Brazil now  
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this book covers you know basically 2010 to 2019  of your journals your your travels um and the  
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things you discovered along the way with your  independent research and and work with several  
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others uh do you have any me very memorable  journal entries or or moments that really stick  
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out to you in this volume uh that you'd be willing  to share with us any you know the Highlight Reel  
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I guess as we would call it um there there would  be there would be many um one of the areas where  
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I was eager to go um after the you know I was  prepared to work for another three years with  
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the you know with the team of the of the project  there were many things that I was ready to bring  
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in um and especially the AI component so I had  already developed uh an AI system for my own for  
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screening cases uh in 1986 and I I published it in  1986 well in 1986 the web did not exist right so  
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how could you do AI well the network existed  and I had access as you know to the network  
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from the beginning of the network from my my days  at SRI so uh I knew how to use that and so on so  
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we we we could have done a lot more well after  two years um that project was know shelv and then  
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I was free to go on with my own research a lot of  things I wanted to do were in the parapsychology  
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angle and uh I I started working with a number of  my friends including people from Sri who had been  
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part of the Paris psychology program and uh the  um inos Swan who had been a one of the leading  
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parapsychology subjects at SRI um you know in the  uh um in the project of Dr POF and Dr tar at SRI  
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had recruited me as a subject for something he  wanted to do outside of the project he wanted to  
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develop a better protocol for um remote viewing  now the the remote viewing the the concept of  
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remote viewing came from a a discussion I had  with inos Swan at the beginning of the project  
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inos Swan wanted to to to find out if there was  something in um in science some methodology that  
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he could bring to pychology and in those days  you know uh Paras pychology was guessing at some  
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symbols that were hidden in a box somewhere and so  on and he didn't want to do that he wanted to do  
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something new and we had a seminal discussion  where I told him look um do you know how a  
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computer uses data and he said no I'm not you know  I'm an artist and and a psychic but I'm not an  
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engineer and I told him I took him through a very  quick overview of how computers use data so in in  
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in this computer um there is data that's fixed for  example today's date is in a Cell in this computer  
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and it's not going to change until tomorrow until  midnight tonight okay and it's fixed and everybody  
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knows where it is you know it's in cell number  10,27 okay um there is other data that comes  
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and goes because I've written a program that uses  for example names of people uh for interviews and  
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that name will change every day and so on and I  can look it up but it's going to change based on  
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the program that remembers the schedule okay so  those are in um the the the the name changes but  
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the location can also change so from day to day  it maybe in a different location in the computer  
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but my program can find that location it goes  there and it gives me the name uh this is direct  
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addressing essentially however there are are also  cases where my program doesn't really know that  
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cell number but I'm going to compute the cell  number and the program is going to then go go  
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and get it into that cell number which is going to  be a result of the calculation and that's called  
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indirect addressing it's not direct I don't know  the number but the program is going to get the  
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number and go there and get the information and  bring the information to me and then there is  
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another problem where the the range of things is  bigger than the memory of the computer and then  
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it's a form of addressing which has to guess  to to to go through a random process to go and  
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discover uh where the information is and that's  called indirect addressing and the um that uh Inu  
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fell in love with that that series because to  him this is what Consciousness does you know it  
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it it can go to um it can go to those different  levels and there is a level where you you you're  
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just plunging into a range of things that are  not in front of you but are somewhere else and  
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you still have a way of um of proceeding within  you know within that range and and find that find  
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that device so we started that's the way the  remot viewing program got started from that  
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conversation between Ino and me uh the uh I I  I don't think the agency knew that but uh then  
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was at the time was not written down anywhere the  I mean that conversation Ino wanted to refine and  
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I'm getting to your question for forgive me  for being very veros this is great ingu wanted  
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to refine that and he had a special program  by himself where he was going to define the  
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process by which he could train people in remote  viewing and he wanted to use me as a subject now  
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I'm I'm a mediocre remote viewer uh but I've I I  understand the process and I was we did a number  
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of experiments I did a number of experiments with  both Yuri Geller and Ino and others and I had done  
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some experiments in France uh that con convinced  me that I could understand the process I could  
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not use it reliably if you're looking for the  solution to a crime for example I wouldn't be the  
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the best person to to do that but um Ingo thought  that I I did it well enough that he could use me  
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as a subject in developing the different stages  of his method the first method was just getting  
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an overall impression the the first level of the  method was beginning to get specific impressions  
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of for example names of things and and colors  music sound wind things like that and then you  
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would go deeper and deeper into details always  recalling the information and reprocessing it so  
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that's the way it works so we had a long table in  a room that was classified and most of Sri didn't  
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know that how that room was used it was only  used for that project and he had coordinates  
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which were based on that initial discussion we  had use coordinates as the way to name to you know  
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to have a air handle for the the site and the um  you know it was um uh a little bit like scatter  
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castles might be you know the coordinates but  he at that time he was still using longitude and  
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latitude and we would get up uh I I had another  job at that point I was doing venture capital I  
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was doing investing but I would go twice a week  you know in that lab with him and we would work on  
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it the whole morning and over the whole morning we  would do four or five different sites of different  
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difficulty one time I go there at 8:00 in the  morning he sitting at one end of the table I'm  
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sitting at the other end all I have is a a pencil  and some paper and he had some pencil a pencil a  
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number two pencil always and some paper was very  you know very rigid very structured and he takes a  
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file opens it up and reads longitude and latitude  and I become sick essentially and he says uh Jack  
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I mean what happens and I say well you go you  know this is I don't know where you're sending  
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me but it it's um it's very uncomfortable and he  says well you know tell me what you feel and I  
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feel well I have vertigo I'm very cold I'm scared  uh I'm scared that I'm going to fall and there is  
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a there is wind around me and it's very cold and  I'm very uncomfortable and he says um you're on  
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on top of a mountain in the andies wow uh he says  we we're done for this morning we're going to stop  
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there because you got it yeah I mean you went to  the site yeah and I wasn't supposed to go to the  
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site I was supposed to draw something that might  have been you know a little Peak and and then at  
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the next level you would have said how do you feel  and I would have said well it's kind of cold you  
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know and and we would have done this was level  one level two level three I was at level seven  
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essentially I was there wow and um I I said well  Ino you I'm I'm on the rooll here you know I I got  
36:00
36 minutes
it um why don't we continue with other signs he  said no you're going home because I don't I want  
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you to remember that I want you to go home with  that feeling because you you got 100% of it you  
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36 minutes, 18 seconds
were at the side wow and I've never you know it's  one thing I've I've never I've never forgotten  
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36 minutes, 28 seconds
and I I am I know the process I know how the  process works I know what you have to do to  
36:36
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make it work now I I my problem is that you know  I'm at heart I'm I'm a computer programmer you  
36:46
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know I'm a hacker so I'm very rational and very  structured in in what I do I I like things to be  
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neat I like things to have you know structure and  so on and and this is I understand why Ingo was so  
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good because Ino was an artist and he was he was  working he was getting at the same result but he  
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37 minutes, 12 seconds
was getting at the result in the much richer way  that was less structured okay and he wanted to  
37:20
37 minutes, 20 seconds
combine the two he wanted to bring structure to  it to teach it to people okay and um I've never  
37:29
37 minutes, 29 seconds
forgotten that experience there there was another  experience which is more you know more recent uh  
37:38
37 minutes, 38 seconds
that I have not completely recovered from um I had  continued to look at the how psychology could use  
37:50
37 minutes, 50 seconds
could be used to frankly to get to contact MH and  so I had spoken to people who uh had research the  
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38 minutes, 3 seconds
same thing and could and to create the conditions  where you could have uh you could make something  
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38 minutes, 12 seconds
happen and this was in San Francisco not not  here in Paris uh it was in San Francisco and  
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38 minutes, 21 seconds
we did a number of structured environments  to that might be susceptible and and I talk  
38:33
38 minutes, 33 seconds
about that in the book might be susceptible to  bringing that that kind of experience of contact  
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38 minutes, 43 seconds
and uh nothing nothing much had happened vague  Impressions and so on and then one night um I'm
38:53
38 minutes, 53 seconds
asleep all of a sudden I'm out of my body now  people psychics describe going out of their  
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39 minutes, 3 seconds
body with a structured way and so on and there  people who can can apparently teach that I had  
39:12
39 minutes, 12 seconds
never taken those courses I had spoken to them  Bob Monroe and others you know I had met and I  
39:20
39 minutes, 20 seconds
had discussed the process and so on but this was  this was not under my control I mean something  
39:27
39 minutes, 27 seconds
had just uh taken me and moved me to a place in my  apartment in San Francisco where I was in front of  
39:37
39 minutes, 37 seconds
an entity uh I was the entity was not threatening  but it was large it was I thought of it as um  
39:50
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frankly as a um uh as as a living being in front  of me as tall as I am uh with no particular  
40:06
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features uh on it but clearly ready to communicate  there was a sense of of complete communication  
40:17
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but again I was out of my body so it wasn't  going to be hearing or I was in that presence  
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uh I was very scared scared um even though it was  not threatening but I was I had never anticipated  
40:35
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that and I I think I was so scared that that  projected me back in my body uh my body woke up  
40:46
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and I was in tears and I was just completely  uh surprised you know by what had happened
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41 minutes
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41 minutes, 10 seconds
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41:16
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41:23
41 minutes, 23 seconds
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41:35
41 minutes, 35 seconds
SKU there was no question I was asleep the whole  my body was asleep the whole time my mind wasn't  
41:47
41 minutes, 47 seconds
so it it had essentially extracted me you know  to present that situation now I I write about  
41:55
41 minutes, 55 seconds
that in the book uh there was there was more and  obviously I want to explore it more but I I don't  
42:05
42 minutes, 5 seconds
want to lead the reader into any theory about  what happened because I don't understand what  
42:14
42 minutes, 14 seconds
happened i' I've spoken to people who went out of  their body uh you know specifically for research  
42:25
42 minutes, 25 seconds
uh certainly part some of the people at at SRI  you know that who worked with t and put and so  
42:32
42 minutes, 32 seconds
on and later with edme you know had uh that that  ability to to move out of their body um but um I  
42:44
42 minutes, 44 seconds
had no prior experience of that so um I I need  to I I need to work on it myself it was it only  
42:56
42 minutes, 56 seconds
changed my my view of what these people were  describing no right I have an open I have an  
43:06
43 minutes, 6 seconds
open ticket you know to to that to that area so to  me that has become much more interesting than than  
43:14
43 minutes, 14 seconds
doing programming on you know databases and so on  I I there are other people who do that very well  
43:21
43 minutes, 21 seconds
uh you know I respect my colleagues certainly in  information science and a AI uh you know I have a  
43:30
43 minutes, 30 seconds
PhD in AI from 1967 AI has a long history you know  it's just not the kind of AI it's it was the first  
43:40
43 minutes, 40 seconds
generation AI that it worked and you could you  could ask questions in English about a database  
43:47
43 minutes, 47 seconds
and get get an immediate answer instead of writing  a program and running the program to compute the  
43:55
43 minutes, 55 seconds
answer you know my my program could be addressed  in English it was a program about astronomy you  
44:03
44 minutes, 3 seconds
could ask a complex mathematical question about a  catalog of stars and get an answer back instantly  
44:14
44 minutes, 14 seconds
you know right that maybe I should I should  revive that program it would run on you know on  
44:21
44 minutes, 21 seconds
any computer and would would be fun to to show it  as a of level one AI but at that time there were  
44:30
44 minutes, 30 seconds
only four AI programs in the world you know two  at Harvard one at Stanford and and mine so uh I  
44:39
44 minutes, 39 seconds
was part of that first generation of AR so I know  it can be done I know how it can be done and and  
44:46
44 minutes, 46 seconds
and so on so but the I I think the Paras pychology  angle is going to be much more interesting because  
44:56
44 minutes, 56 seconds
now we have to communicate with whatever entity is  involved no no it's not just a matter of you know  
45:06
45 minutes, 6 seconds
picking up samples and looking at how much carbon  there is versus lead and uranium or something we  
45:15
45 minutes, 15 seconds
we need to do that and as you know I've donated  all my collection of samples physical samples to  
45:23
45 minutes, 23 seconds
Dr Nolan and we're working working together on  that you know on that collection um to uh to to  
45:33
45 minutes, 33 seconds
improve that methodology and try to to get more  specific you know technical answers about that  
45:41
45 minutes, 41 seconds
but um I I think the psychic angle to me now is is  where where I want to continue to go interesting  
45:52
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well to sort of play off of that Chuck yeah I  mean the work with Gary Nolan is one thing and  
45:57
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it's vital it's essential it's important to  understand you know let's say what the tool  
46:04
46 minutes, 4 seconds
is made of how the tool works but then you flip  it on its head and you go to this more psychic  
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46 minutes, 12 seconds
uh approach or or uh let's say even metaphysical  to an extent to understand the motivation behind  
46:22
46 minutes, 22 seconds
what the tool is and why it's being used like what  what is the motivation behind the intelligence of  
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46 minutes, 30 seconds
those fragments you discovered or the craft or  you know the trace evidence Left Behind uh so I  
46:37
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guess to kind of play off of that do you think as  the methodical person you are um trained with AI  
46:45
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using protocol for such things math all of this  stuff it's very rational it's very structured  
46:53
46 minutes, 53 seconds
do you think by using a protoc call or a process  that you could revisit that experience you had in  
47:01
47 minutes, 1 second
your bed that night to commune with this entity  is is that something you think you can do or or  
47:08
47 minutes, 8 seconds
no the the the the work that I've done in Ai and I  said in 1967 between 1967 and now a lot of people  
47:20
47 minutes, 20 seconds
have developed AI programs uh to implement  things in your car you I mean your your car  
47:27
47 minutes, 27 seconds
is the the programs in your car are not classical  programs that you know 2 + 2 gives four and and  
47:38
47 minutes, 38 seconds
so on uh there are programs that analyze your  behavior as a driver that remembers how you've  
47:47
47 minutes, 47 seconds
driven before can detect if you're in a hurry to  go somewhere if you if you're making mistakes it  
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47 minutes, 55 seconds
will adjust if you're making some mistakes it  if you're falling asleep it will wake you up  
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it will detect all that and it will work with  you without you're being aware of what's going  
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48 minutes, 8 seconds
on in the engine that adapts the the capability  of the car to your state of your physical state  
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48 minutes, 18 seconds
and and your intellectual state to some extent  uh it it doesn't know why you're disturbed uh  
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48 minutes, 27 seconds
you know it could be a number of things but it  knows that the way you're sitting in the car the  
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way you're you you're using the wheel and so on is  different from what you usually use it and it will  
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48 minutes, 41 seconds
adapt its own behavior to that to to anticipate  things if it it knows where the the yellow line is  
48:50
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or the white line and if if you if you go across  a white line is going to know that is going to  
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assume that either you're very disturbed or you're  you're asleep and and then it will do something to  
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49 minutes, 6 seconds
wake you up okay so that intelligence is already  in the car okay so those are things that work with  
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us with us and to me AI uh is going to be most  useful in that in that way the the program I  
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49 minutes, 24 seconds
wrote and actually I published it in 19 87 at at  a meeting in Los Angeles a meeting about how to  
49:35
49 minutes, 35 seconds
use computers in in Aerospace it was an aerospace  meeting uh and the the the problem was how do you  
49:46
49 minutes, 46 seconds
act go faster in um screening reports of UFOs  well there are a number of hypothesis if you  
49:58
49 minutes, 58 seconds
see me uh or if you if you tell me that you've  seen a strange light at night there are a number  
50:05
50 minutes, 5 seconds
of questions I'm going to ask you because it it  could be the moon behind a cloud now I I know  
50:12
50 minutes, 12 seconds
where the moon was that night and I can screen  that but it's going to take a lot of time the the  
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50 minutes, 22 seconds
the computer can I I designed a program that had  about 200 possible situations where a report of  
50:34
50 minutes, 34 seconds
a UFO could be explainable by by some hypothesis  uh in some cases there are several hypotheses that  
50:45
50 minutes, 45 seconds
would come up at the same time that now a normal  program cannot handle that you know conflicting  
50:52
50 minutes, 52 seconds
two different conflicting hypotheses at the same  time AI can do that you know he can think about  
50:59
50 minutes, 59 seconds
things that are red and things that are green at  the same time okay and and and and essentially  
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51 minutes, 6 seconds
model the situation you're describing in terms  of that the that it takes AI to do that you you  
51:14
51 minutes, 14 seconds
can't just have a normal program to do that it  I mean you could but it would take all day to  
51:20
51 minutes, 20 seconds
go through all the possible situations you need  to have interference you need to the computer to  
51:27
51 minutes, 27 seconds
infer something from what you say as as a witness  so my program was essentially a guide that would  
51:37
51 minutes, 37 seconds
it wouldn't find the answer by itself that's not I  know people are trying to do that I think they'll  
51:46
51 minutes, 46 seconds
have some interesting time and they many mistakes  before that kind of AI is really going to work  
51:54
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uh including on the stock market you know those  things so I'm not saying you shouldn't use chat  
52:00
52 minutes
GPT but the way people are using it now is comical  you know it's it's a big laugh if I think there  
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52 minutes, 11 seconds
may be a level in the computer that's laughing  at the questions we're going to ask um to me it  
52:18
52 minutes, 18 seconds
was more like a dialogue with a very very smart  assistant who could make inference you know ahead  
52:26
52 minutes, 26 seconds
of of me and could say well you know uh maybe uh  maybe he saw the moon through the fog but think of  
52:36
52 minutes, 36 seconds
all the other things that could be and there are  some very weird hypotheses that people forget you  
52:44
52 minutes, 44 seconds
know forget to us and the computer is not going to  forget the computer is going to remind me that yes  
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52 minutes, 51 seconds
that there could be a you know a 50% chance that  that this is in fact the moon behind a cloud but  
53:00
53 minutes
because the Moon is in fact there because it's  computed the position of the moon when you saw  
53:06
53 minutes, 6 seconds
that UFO but you know it it it could be it could  be an airplane making a turn uh through the fog  
53:16
53 minutes, 16 seconds
to go to uh to you know an airport that's close  by it could be it could be some illumination from  
53:25
53 minutes, 25 seconds
something else so the the computer is not going to  forget all the other things it could be your brain  
53:32
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is going to think oh you know I got it I mean it's  got to be this and and then your emotions to take  
53:40
53 minutes, 40 seconds
over you know my little assistant didn't have any  emotions it would say Well Jack you may be right  
53:48
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you know up to 43% but you should also look at the  20% hypothesis and the 15% hypothesis system and  
53:57
53 minutes, 57 seconds
so on it's not going to let me off the hook so I  think that again this was a kind of AI we could  
54:04
54 minutes, 4 seconds
do in uh 1987 and then but we don't do it I mean  that's the thing that I wanted to bring to bigo I  
54:16
54 minutes, 16 seconds
wanted to bring into our you know our program  for Dia you know Dia didn't think of that you  
54:24
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know but we that's something with we could have  contributed that would sa save you know thousands  
54:32
54 minutes, 32 seconds
of hours of analyst trying to reconstruct what  could have happened in some of those cases you  
54:40
54 minutes, 40 seconds
know you could put that in on top of you know the  scanning programs that look at uh uh signals in  
54:50
54 minutes, 50 seconds
the sky and so on I mean there's a lot of the the  the the the basic work that can be done yeah you  
54:58
54 minutes, 58 seconds
you asked me about um specific things and there is  some of it also that somewhat buried in you know  
55:09
55 minutes, 9 seconds
in probably in science [Music] um because I wasn't  sure for a long time I wasn't sure what to think  
55:19
55 minutes, 19 seconds
about it my wife and I bought the a property  in the redwoods in Northern California 2 hours  
55:31
55 minutes, 31 seconds
North of San Francisco It's a Wonderful area it's  in mosino mosino county is uh you know the last  
55:42
55 minutes, 42 seconds
huge redwoods uh that they live 400 years or more  uh so we we had some Century old redwoods on the  
55:54
55 minutes, 54 seconds
property and I had a a lot of respect for those  beings because they are for example when there is  
56:03
56 minutes, 3 seconds
a a forest fire they don't die they thrive in the  fire the fire destroys the low branches but there  
56:14
56 minutes, 14 seconds
is a lot of water there are many tons of water  stored in those in those towering redwoods so  
56:22
56 minutes, 22 seconds
they they don't burn so they the the the fire  clears the Underwood the under uh you know the  
56:32
56 minutes, 32 seconds
the the wood itself the the lower level Plants um  that and it clears the landscape for the Redwoods  
56:43
56 minutes, 43 seconds
and the the the Redwoods and because when they  you know the fruits of the Redwood will fall  
56:52
56 minutes, 52 seconds
into the ashes and start newed redwoods right so  that's why you you see in those old redwoods if  
57:01
57 minutes, 1 second
you you ever in Northern California you'll see a  a big Redwood and you'll see five or six little  
57:08
57 minutes, 8 seconds
ones that are just growing next to it that's how  it happen you know if the fruit falls in the Ash  
57:16
57 minutes, 16 seconds
and and it's very nourishing for it and that's how  they were produce okay I mean you I've learned you  
57:24
57 minutes, 24 seconds
learned so much by just going into Nation talking  to the local people and understanding that I built  
57:32
57 minutes, 32 seconds
an observatory in the middle of redwood forest  okay um it was very dark uh there were no lights  
57:42
57 minutes, 42 seconds
the closest neighbor was 3/4 of a mile away so uh  the I put an observatory there because I wanted to  
57:57
57 minutes, 57 seconds
re-experience the joy of being an astronomer and  on having your own telescope and being able to  
58:03
58 minutes, 3 seconds
look at things I didn't do anything very fancy  or experimental but I wanted to track satellites  
58:10
58 minutes, 10 seconds
again I wanted to look at the Moon again I want  to study the moon U of course I had done all  
58:17
58 minutes, 17 seconds
that you know at Paris Observatory and later  in no at McDonald in Texas uh we were working  
58:26
58 minutes, 26 seconds
um well my boss was working mainly on Mars  and galaxies and I worked for him on Galactic  
58:35
58 minutes, 35 seconds
Spectra and so on so I wanted to re-experience  what it was like to to be at the Prime Focus  
58:43
58 minutes, 43 seconds
of the telescope um we uh could sleep in  the tower and um there were a number of  
58:56
58 minutes, 56 seconds
times three times when my wife woke up in  I didn't wake up so it was you the opposite  
59:07
59 minutes, 7 seconds
of Whitley stre Whitley would wake up and would  have these experiences which I've you know I've  
59:16
59 minutes, 16 seconds
admired the way he was able to describe them  and and work with them in his own process uh
59:28
59 minutes, 28 seconds
my my wife was Janine my first wife was not a  skeptic by any means but she was in many ways  
59:39
59 minutes, 39 seconds
more um you know approaching the whole thing  more rationally than me she saw she was woken  
59:47
59 minutes, 47 seconds
up by lights that were small she describes it as  you know small lights sort of like like this that  
59:57
59 minutes, 57 seconds
that would that would move around as if it was  exploring the room we were in there were books in  
1:00:06
1 hour, 6 seconds
that room there were rare books um there were some  scientific instruments I was just storing them  
1:00:16
1 hour, 16 seconds
there and and it it would move around and then  it would disappear and I she told me about those  
1:00:27
1 hour, 27 seconds
um on the last day after when we sold the property  uh we uh I was I was back in San Francisco she was  
1:00:44
1 hour, 44 seconds
finishing where to sell the car where to put the  car on the on the trailer and have it you know  
1:00:52
1 hour, 52 seconds
moved to be sold in the city and then there was  nothing else on the ranch uh so she was spending  
1:01:02
1 hour, 1 minute, 2 seconds
the last night there and then she was awakened by  her light now I had hoped we we had that lanch in  
1:01:15
1 hour, 1 minute, 15 seconds
the forest for 18 years with an observatory that  was the only sticking out of the Redwood Forest  
1:01:23
1 hour, 1 minute, 23 seconds
you would think the aliens would come there maybe  they did on those two occasions okay but uh I  
1:01:31
1 hour, 1 minute, 31 seconds
didn't see it and on the last day she was woken up  by a very bright light that woke her up I mean it  
1:01:40
1 hour, 1 minute, 40 seconds
was filling the the room uh she went to the window  and there was a light essentially driving down the  
1:01:52
1 hour, 1 minute, 52 seconds
driveway which was a dirt just a dirt road okay uh  in the middle of that Forest uh an enormous r that  
1:02:03
1 hour, 2 minutes, 3 seconds
went down the driveway to the main road as if to  say you know uh good luck yeah that's the way we  
1:02:16
1 hour, 2 minutes, 16 seconds
interpreted it that but why did it wait until the  last day when I was there the last night you know  
1:02:26
1 hour, 2 minutes, 26 seconds
and again that's another thing I need to process  I've gained in in the process a lot of respect  
1:02:34
1 hour, 2 minutes, 34 seconds
uh for WHL and what he's gone through um because  I recognize that of course he was the the prime  
1:02:43
1 hour, 2 minutes, 43 seconds
witness you know his his wife was not the witness  right my situation it was reversed I don't know  
1:02:50
1 hour, 2 minutes, 50 seconds
how to process that there was no special message  except a message of um saying goodbye but that  
1:03:02
1 hour, 3 minutes, 2 seconds
last uh light was uh was very much in your face it  was bigger than the house it was unmistakable it  
1:03:13
1 hour, 3 minutes, 13 seconds
was white you know white UV you know uh and uh it  it was not a specific shape was not a craft it was  
1:03:27
1 hour, 3 minutes, 27 seconds
just a massive light going down the driveway the  way a car would go down and well um so those those  
1:03:40
1 hour, 3 minutes, 40 seconds
are some of the highlights uh you know that are in  the book uh other than and funny enough the people  
1:03:49
1 hour, 3 minutes, 49 seconds
who reacted to the book have not reacted to that  it's as if well yeah maybe you know and it it it  
1:04:00
1 hour, 4 minutes
it takes a while it I don't blame them because it  took me a while to get to recognize how important  
1:04:10
1 hour, 4 minutes, 10 seconds
those specific things were because I come and go  you know it's like Ino said you know it it's it's  
1:04:18
1 hour, 4 minutes, 18 seconds
there it's too big for your Consciousness So  you you're vaguely aware of some things happen  
1:04:26
1 hour, 4 minutes, 26 seconds
but if you don't train yourself you're not  going to understand it yeah Ando SP that  
1:04:33
1 hour, 4 minutes, 33 seconds
you're essentially training me in in writing  that training manual I was say the guinea pig  
1:04:45
1 hour, 4 minutes, 45 seconds
and I was you know privileged to be the guinea  pig for you know what other the mistakes that  
1:04:52
1 hour, 4 minutes, 52 seconds
people make I had made all those mistakes and  and what other cases where it works and I I I  
1:05:00
1 hour, 5 minutes
recognize when it works well the other thing  too jacqu I think is these experiences are  
1:05:08
1 hour, 5 minutes, 8 seconds
while subjective and and and Powerful you know  due to interpretation and and things like that  
1:05:17
1 hour, 5 minutes, 17 seconds
uh they're so profound and Powerful for the  individual The Observer the experiencer that  
1:05:25
1 hour, 5 minutes, 25 seconds
can almost understand why so why people haven't  responded so much to those sections of your book  
1:05:33
1 hour, 5 minutes, 33 seconds
because they aren't the one who experienced it yet  I personally feel in those you know those cracks  
1:05:41
1 hour, 5 minutes, 41 seconds
those uh small glimpses that each person has of  these phenomena that's where the answers lay not  
1:05:49
1 hour, 5 minutes, 49 seconds
in you know what AI will eventually produce as an  answer or what the US government will produce as  
1:05:57
1 hour, 5 minutes, 57 seconds
an answer to UFOs but what each individual uh  finds along their path their Journey you know  
1:06:06
1 hour, 6 minutes, 6 seconds
I I mean I'm sure your possible explanation for  these phenomena changes on a daily basis like it  
1:06:14
1 hour, 6 minutes, 14 seconds
does for all of us uh am I um more and more people  of course are experiencing that you have to give  
1:06:22
1 hour, 6 minutes, 22 seconds
yourself permission or you have to recognize it  frankly when I was you know out of my body um I at  
1:06:38
1 hour, 6 minutes, 38 seconds
the time I I I didn't know what was happening you  know I mean it was very very quick it took less  
1:06:46
1 hour, 6 minutes, 46 seconds
than a minute for the whole thing to happen and  for me to be brought back but I had read I had met  
1:06:54
1 hour, 6 minutes, 54 seconds
Robert Monroe you know I had uh of course worked  with with Ingo uh I had met a number of people  
1:07:04
1 hour, 7 minutes, 4 seconds
who uh for whom that was a familiar psychic you  know experience so I had something to relate it to  
1:07:16
1 hour, 7 minutes, 16 seconds
um and I I think that's going to happen more and  more and um you know the big question is uh when  
1:07:25
1 hour, 7 minutes, 25 seconds
time comes to really communicate with the the  entities behind the UFO phenomenon how is it going  
1:07:35
1 hour, 7 minutes, 35 seconds
to happen uh I've continued to explore that with  psychics and they've they've told me of their own  
1:07:46
1 hour, 7 minutes, 46 seconds
experiences I'm not ready to to write about that  it's not in in this book but that's part of my  
1:07:55
1 hour, 7 minutes, 55 seconds
research now is is is really at that level you  know on how to refine refine that so that it  
1:08:05
1 hour, 8 minutes, 5 seconds
becomes reliable yeah and the research continues  shock um we're coming up on the hour you've been  
1:08:13
1 hour, 8 minutes, 13 seconds
very generous with your time uh I have one  final question for you if that's okay okay  
1:08:20
1 hour, 8 minutes, 20 seconds
uh so in the book you give sort of these three  critical moments in history where uh this quote  
1:08:28
1 hour, 8 minutes, 28 seconds
unquote UFO disclosure could have happened uh you  know this is like that that Golden Nugget that  
1:08:35
1 hour, 8 minutes, 35 seconds
everyone wants disclosure uh you know and you give  this example of you know late 50s we had Project  
1:08:42
1 hour, 8 minutes, 42 seconds
Blue Book Grudge sign all of this could have been  a moment uh you had the late 60s and whatnot with  
1:08:49
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the cond the cond report you know correct and then  you you fast forward up to like 2011 with the work  
1:08:57
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you were doing um and whatnot with your programs  uh that these all could have been three critical  
1:09:03
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moments where disclosure could uh seemingly  have happened yet didn't for various reasons  
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uh to sort of I guess end this conversation we had  news out of Washington just yesterday as we were  
1:09:19
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recording this that hopefully more transparency  is going to be coming in our future uh which some  
1:09:26
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people might correlate to disclosure so do you  think we're we're going to are we on a path to  
1:09:35
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any more disclosure when it comes to this topic or  will it forever remain enigmatic as it has for so
1:09:41
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lot um a number of us uh of course we're all  asking that question and nobody has ever defined  
1:09:55
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disclosure and if if you took 10 10 of our friends  and interested in UFOs you put them in the same  
1:10:03
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room and you ask them to write what disclosure is  and you compare what they wrote it would go all  
1:10:10
1 hour, 10 minutes, 10 seconds
you know all over the place um to some extent uh  as some friends of mine have said dis closure has  
1:10:20
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already happened I mean it it's clear that there  is something and to me it happened uh you know  
1:10:28
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four years ago at the Washington Cathedral I mean  what more do you need you know the director of um  
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you know National Intelligence standing up in a  cathedral saying you know all those things they  
1:10:46
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are real and they are not part of Espionage  they are not part of what our intelligence  
1:10:55
1 hour, 10 minutes, 55 seconds
agencies are doing it's something else it's not  the Russians it's not the Chinese it's something  
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else and it's outside of intelligence even though  intelligence may have something to to say about  
1:11:09
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the methodology by which you you try to understand  it you know because it's like decoding something  
1:11:16
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but it's not you know it's not an enemy something  else uh you're the director of Harvard and  
1:11:25
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Observatory you had the former um director of  NASA you know administrator of NASA and uh and  
1:11:36
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you had the Archbishop of Washington okay all of  them uh one after the other saying yes there is a  
1:11:43
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mystery and here we stand you know four years  later and nothing's nothing more has happened  
1:11:51
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until yesterday yeah yesterday something happened  so the number of us are scared because if it had  
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1 hour, 12 minutes
been revealed in the 60s which it could we came  close to that we advocated for that the answer  
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we got actually you know I answer question in  France there was a French officer who went to  
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the American Embassy to talk to his counterpart  you know in an Air Force his name is CL W colon  
1:12:25
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clear one he went to talk to his counterpart  at the embassy and the Man in the embassy made  
1:12:33
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a few phone calls and said it's not the time  to do it because there is too much conflict in  
1:12:39
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the world it's complicated we we cannot afford  to have one more thing that's undefined that's  
1:12:47
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going to complicate it between us and the  Russians you know those were the you know the  
1:12:55
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the silent War you know the wall you know all  those things between us and the Russians it  
1:13:03
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was not the time to bring up another another thing  in the sky we couldn't understand or track and um  
1:13:13
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that made sense um then there was a condent commed  as you know Dr H and I were the first scientist to  
1:13:21
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testify before condom we I brought my database you  know to merge with their database uh so that they  
1:13:32
1 hour, 13 minutes, 32 seconds
had you know an up toate stuff to work with  from the beginning you know I about 3,000 uh  
1:13:45
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cases that were well documented that they could  put next to what they already had and then you  
1:13:53
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know I had the the Air Force 5 that I put on the  computer that they could use you know we donated  
1:13:59
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that to the Condon project they could they didn't  have to say something that was interpreted as you  
1:14:11
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know everybody go home there is nothing there  you know which is the way it was interpreted  
1:14:16
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that's not what they said but that's the way it  was understood and um that was and then we now  
1:14:26
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now if it had happened in the 60s the scientists  would have been very interesting it would have  
1:14:33
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come as one more thing it wasn't alarming it  wasn't scary it was very technical you know there  
1:14:40
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were a few hundred cases that people could study  it was interesting I think it would have cleared  
1:14:47
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the way to the whole discussion later on that  didn't happen um it it could have happened U with  
1:14:59
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condom um I then men had been in space you know  so the the whole thing about going to the moon  
1:15:08
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going to space and so that was dispelled I mean we  could do it these people came back they were human  
1:15:16
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like you and me you know we we this was something  we could handle you know so the scary part was  
1:15:25
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was gone and that would have been an exciting  thing to do with science you know maybe we we  
1:15:32
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would bring from space we would bring new medical  process I mean it's still true today of course we  
1:15:40
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have done that um but that was that was close uh  doing doing it today with all the conflict in the  
1:15:53
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world all the unknown with AI on top of it which  is scaring people for good reasons for both good  
1:16:02
1 hour, 16 minutes, 2 seconds
and bad reasons but uh I think this is we're not  going to see a nice rational you know acceptance  
1:16:13
1 hour, 16 minutes, 13 seconds
of that is going to scare a lot of people um there  are reasons why um part of the Armed Forces felt  
1:16:24
1 hour, 16 minutes, 24 seconds
it should should not be opened up uh for religious  reasons um there would be um history says that  
1:16:40
1 hour, 16 minutes, 40 seconds
whenever a superior civilization has moved into  a territory you know like the Spanish moving to  
1:16:50
1 hour, 16 minutes, 50 seconds
Mexico and to South America like the French moving  to afria afca and so on uh essentially this the  
1:16:59
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more evolved technical civilization kills  everything I mean that's what we did to the  
1:17:06
1 hour, 17 minutes, 6 seconds
Indian civilization in the US you know uh people  came from Europe with all kinds of ideas and all  
1:17:15
1 hour, 17 minutes, 15 seconds
kinds of wanting to do all kinds of Science and  other things and the there was never a smooth um  
1:17:26
1 hour, 17 minutes, 26 seconds
the process defined to ameliorate the the process  so it became conflict and out of a conflict with  
1:17:37
1 hour, 17 minutes, 37 seconds
essentially eliminated entire civilizations around  the world you know the French with Spanish the
1:17:46
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English and um it's very difficult to recapture  and the question is you know are we like uh going  
1:17:59
1 hour, 17 minutes, 59 seconds
to be faced with something that comes here you  you asked me the question at the beginning about  
1:18:06
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injuries you know well the injuries the this  phenomenon doesn't seem to care if it kills  
1:18:13
1 hour, 18 minutes, 13 seconds
people or if it injures people Dr Green has  all these files that we've worked on together  
1:18:21
1 hour, 18 minutes, 21 seconds
to some extent and is continued to develop no  protocols to deal with these these patients uh  
1:18:29
1 hour, 18 minutes, 29 seconds
of people who were exposed to something that  we really don't understand that in some cases  
1:18:37
1 hour, 18 minutes, 37 seconds
it is obviously hostile now you know if I if if  I touch know a burning bulb it's going to burn  
1:18:49
1 hour, 18 minutes, 49 seconds
me it's not hostile but I know not to do that and  we don't understand that process with UFOs should  
1:18:59
1 hour, 18 minutes, 59 seconds
we tell people yes if if something lands in your  backyard you can go touch it you know well some  
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people have done it and you know with no harm and  some people have done it and were irradiated you  
1:19:17
1 hour, 19 minutes, 17 seconds
know to dangerous extent MH for life and so um  all those questions are the questions people are  
1:19:27
1 hour, 19 minutes, 27 seconds
going to start asking now and they should and we  don't have the answers and we have not prepared  
1:19:37
1 hour, 19 minutes, 37 seconds
the scientific structure to go get the answers  so you know yeah that was what we wanted to do  
1:19:46
1 hour, 19 minutes, 46 seconds
you know with a bigu project with mass and that  was cut off after two years for reasons that I've  
1:19:54
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never understood should so yeah yeah it's uh you  know everyone always grasps for disclosure hopes  
1:20:04
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for disclosure yet nobody truly knows what that  means what the potential could be for that if it  
1:20:12
1 hour, 20 minutes, 12 seconds
did ever come and I think you're right in while we  may think we're prepared in some ways there's so  
1:20:20
1 hour, 20 minutes, 20 seconds
many unanswered questions like do we even want  those anwers sh you that's the true question I  
1:20:28
1 hour, 20 minutes, 28 seconds
don't I don't see myself answering those questions  I I love to be part of a team where I I can bring  
1:20:38
1 hour, 20 minutes, 38 seconds
some elements of of of an answer or a possible  answer to scientists in other branches where we  
1:20:47
1 hour, 20 minutes, 47 seconds
can work together to at least cast some some light  on that and that's what I want to continue to do  
1:20:55
1 hour, 20 minutes, 55 seconds
yes absolutely and the work does continue that's  for sure uh the book again everyone is Forbidden  
1:21:03
1 hour, 21 minutes, 3 seconds
Science 6 scattered castles the best subtitle  I've ever heard for a book I I absolutely love it  
1:21:11
1 hour, 21 minutes, 11 seconds
uh jacqu we will put links to the book below for  everyone to check out but um I have to say this  
1:21:18
1 hour, 21 minutes, 18 seconds
has been an absolutely fascinating conversation  um I'm honored to have had you back on the show  
1:21:24
1 hour, 21 minutes, 24 seconds
to have this conversation and I certainly hope it  will not be our last so I want to thank you once   again for coming on somewhere in this scy thank  you very much thank you we're sitting on top of  
1:21:35
1 hour, 21 minutes, 35 seconds
an iceberg and the enormous size and implications  of the rest of that Iceberg that's what I'd like  
1:21:41
1 hour, 21 minutes, 41 seconds
to know I came away from the meeting and from the  room with the distinct feeling however that the  
1:21:49
1 hour, 21 minutes, 49 seconds
panel had deliberately moved to debunk the whole  subject and not to give it the serious scientific  
1:21:57
1 hour, 21 minutes, 57 seconds
attention which it deserved from my own point  of view I'm going to be very disappointed if you   first turn out to be nothing more than visitors  from another planet because I think there could  
1:22:07
1 hour, 22 minutes, 7 seconds
be something much more interesting when you look  up in the sky you're off in a corner of nowhere  
1:22:13
1 hour, 22 minutes, 13 seconds
we're nobody's maybe if we looked around a little  bit we could learn how to be somebody's [Music]