Title: Psyched about UFOs panel discussion
Source video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptbd9O4-Sk8
Transcript supplied by UAPRAD in Dr tim videos up to 2608.docx

0:01
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All right, folks. Welcome back to Psyched About UFOs. I'm Dr. Tim Bighgam.
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Uh, if you've been here with us before, thanks for joining us. Last week, we had Dr. Greg Little on as our our first guest for for an interview. Uh, today
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we're going to have a bit of a panel discussion about uh what's going on in the in the UFO field right now. If you're not familiar, um, I'm a
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psychologist. I've been involved in UFOs for about 35 years, off and on now. Um, I take primarily a psychosocial perspective on UFOs as as what Carl
0:31
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Young might call a modern myth. Um, but try to stay curious uh while asking critical questions. And with that, I'll I'll bring some folks up. Uh, I see we got Matt coming up here with us today.
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Hey, what's going on, Tim? How's it going, man? How you doing?
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Good, good. It's h cool to do one of these uh for the first time.
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Yeah. Yeah. Right on, man. Yeah. I kind of just starting to get into the YouTube thing. I kind of like the uh I like doing that a little more than the spaces. You get the visual thing, but when you talk Yeah. to No, totally. Totally.
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Anything you tell us about yourself, Matt, as we as we get get going here?
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What brought you into the to the scene and and all that kind of stuff?
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Uh, sure. Yeah. Um, you know, when I was younger, I was always into the topic.
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1 minute, 12 seconds
Uh, I mean, it's hard it's hard not to be into, you know, what the big I think what I guess what is the biggest question, you know, are we?
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Sure. It's, you know, it's uh it's mysterious. It's it's interesting. It's fun to think about. It's uh you know,
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there's plenty of sci-fi movies that cover it. Well, um yeah.
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And then uh you know, I I think I had like a little bit of interest for a while and then sometime around 2017 in 2022, I was like, whoa, is is there
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actually something to this? And I totally sucked in. Yeah.
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And after a while, I was uh my one of my co-workers was really into it, too. And we would check it out during work and message each other about it. And and
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1 minute, 55 seconds
then we kind of started reading some more stuff and seeing some more videos that kind of dope a bit, you know, another layer down, I guess.
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Yeah.
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Into it all. And and it was like, oh, this is this is where we've totally been taken on a ride here.
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Yeah. And it's it's I want to bring some other folks up here, but it's certainly interesting. I think it's one of those it's like a multi-layered onion, right?
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2 minutes, 18 seconds
Where there's the surface level of there's nothing to it and there's a little bit deeper level where there's something there's something to some of this and you look at it and then the
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2 minutes, 26 seconds
evidence tends to oftentimes fall apart and and we can get into all that stuff, but I'm going to keep keep uh we got Jeff Knox here, our in-house UFO historian coming on. Jeff, there you go.
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2 minutes, 37 seconds
Hey Jeff, how's it going man?
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2 minutes, 40 seconds
Yeah. Right. Just [clears throat] trying to figure out how to link my YouTube account so I can chat as well.
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2 minutes, 45 seconds
All right. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. We got uh Luis is gonna join us for uh for the first time here on this show and I think we've talked maybe once before, Luis,
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2 minutes, 53 seconds
but how are you doing, man? Good to see you. Hi. Thanks for having me.
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2 minutes, 57 seconds
Yeah, absolutely. You did some stuff with Jeff before, I think, on UFO Sunset, right? And where where have I Yeah. Yeah. That's why I've crossed your
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path before. We've got uh we got Onap coming on here with us as well. Hey, Dr. Tim. How are you?
3:12
3 minutes, 12 seconds
Hey, man. Doing well. Doing well. How you guys doing? Doing well. Right on. Do we clean shaving today?
3:20
3 minutes, 20 seconds
Yep. Yep. It's still hot here in California. [clears throat] Yeah. Matt, you want to be 10 degrees cooler?
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You can just shave the beard off.
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3 minutes, 29 seconds
I I know. It's I got to get rid of this thing. It's way too hot right now.
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Speaking of since somebody brought it up, I have to check. It is 103 degrees here in in the Southwest. So,
3:40
3 minutes, 40 seconds
okay. That seems more normal to me than uh New York City or elsewhere.
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3 minutes, 44 seconds
What are they Are they up at a high temp right now as well? You guys should be out of that by now.
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3 minutes, 50 seconds
Yeah, I'm in the Midwest, so it's we're we're we're muggy, but it's not as it's not as hot.
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3 minutes, 55 seconds
Gotcha. Gotcha. Quick thing here. I just um as we were about to do this, I don't Some of you guys I'm sure know Smiles
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Lewis, uh Anomaly Archives. Um he did a he does a live um weekly usually weekly UFO roundup or anomaly news roundup and
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4 minutes, 12 seconds
today I just happened I catch some of them. I happened to catch it today. He was saying that um outside Point Pleasant in West Virginia they are
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4 minutes, 19 seconds
taking the TNT area that was associated with a lot of the Moth Man stuff and guess what? They're turning it into a data center.
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4 minutes, 28 seconds
Okay. [snorts] So yeah, the uh I guess they call I didn't even really know the history. The TNT area was formerly a weapon storage
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place or explosives at least and was affiliated or associated with some of the the Moth Man stuff, but sign of the
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times I guess, right? That now turning into a data center, but seems to be happening all over America.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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Maybe Moth Man won't like it and we'll go and destroy the data center.
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Yeah. Yeah. Give you a sign that the the data center's gonna gonna fall or something, right? Yeah. And of course, the other big the I guess the bigger
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news, if you want to call it that, was the the uh release of some more some more videos of something from the Department of War. But uh yeah, and Dr.
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5 minutes, 14 seconds
Phil getting in on that, too, by the way, which was interesting, I guess. He was first to the files. Big news.
5:22
5 minutes, 22 seconds
Yeah, he said that. I Yeah, I I don't know what to That's a whole thing we could Do you think he actually did get any early access to that? Do you think I
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5 minutes, 31 seconds
I'm going to blame it on Tim Burchett. I don't know how, but I'm going to somehow blame it on him that he I Yeah, I bet he's behind it. He would be the one to watch Dr. Phil of that group. Maybe him and Burles.
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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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I think Lou just showed him some crap when he was on his show. Oh my god.
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Yeah. Was Lou on his show? I didn't even remember that. Was Lou on there? Yeah. And Dr. Phil had a thing a while back.
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Yeah.
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Yeah. Yeah. You know, sorry, Matt. What were you gonna say?
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I was just say, do you know Do you know what he showed him, Bunny? Just like videos or documents or something.
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I mean, I think he did the same thing he always does. He talks about there's sightings around nuclear bases. He probably showed him a couple of
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documents and I think he got convinced he was shown stuff early, but honestly, nothing that Dr. Frell said today, he
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couldn't have learned in the previous releases of files. So I I don't think he was actually given special access. And if you none of these files are new
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anyway. They're all old in the first place. So nobody had to like show him secret files.
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[snorts]
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Yeah. And um it it makes me think that in the past when I think Lou has has
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shown people things that I I think about those those photographs of the the the babies that were uh you know human
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6 minutes, 56 seconds
babies that he said were aliens and wow that was pretty pretty dark. But yeah
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um yeah but I the thing with Dr. Phil is it's always kind of surprising to me when when somebody who has some kind of
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7 minutes, 11 seconds
you know and obviously as a as a as a psychologist my perspective on UFOs as a psychosocial phenomenon might kind of
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7 minutes, 19 seconds
line up but when you have like somebody like Dr. Phil who steps out there and talks about UFOs but in no way related to human psychology whatsoever. He's
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7 minutes, 28 seconds
talking about nuclear plants and and you know, I guess you could say the reliability supposedly of these witnesses, but would be a psychological perspective, but none of what he's
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really saying has journalists, you could write for a a publication that's no, you know, reputable or you could write for the
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tabloids. And uh he's got it's audience capture is what I see it as. He's just trying to uh you know, f the whole the
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7 minutes, 52 seconds
buzzwords are there. First to the files, this is real, this and that. trying to be an authority figure on it too for the buzz and for the audience capture
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because that's the part of this. If you put a if you put a UFO t-shirt on, you go out into X, you know, everyone's going to want to strike up a
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conversation with you and it doesn't matter what you're coming in with in the conversation.
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They're they're it's an instant like icebreaker and I already know what this guy's about kind of thing. It's just to get clicks, engagements, and
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that's how I see it. What about the psychology of Michael Shurmer being part of the task force uh advisory task force I think it's called for the White House.
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8 minutes, 32 seconds
Do you think that was a strange kind of intervention by Shurmer?
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Does Shurmer have ties to Teal? Because I I I always do the dotted line from Jesse Michaels to Teal to Who's the
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other uh journalist that likes to Yeah, Green Street was asking about that. I I saw on on Twitter. It's a fair question, right?
8:54
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Yeah. Yeah. And I I didn't see at least that Shurmer asked him about that. I've I you know, I got to say I'm kind of on the middle about Shurmer. I don't have
9:02
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anything personal against him, but he's kind of a I say like kind of a bland skeptic even, which is um some of his personal and political views I'm not too
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hot on either, but um yeah.
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Yeah. I mean, people point out rightly he's not a not a sc not not an active scientist. I think he's got some some good good questions and stuff to put out
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there about UFOs. But, you know, the bigger thing I think is the people circulating around that topic have no interest in hearing any of those questions or those objections.
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9 minutes, 31 seconds
Um, so yeah, I don't know.
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9 minutes, 34 seconds
Uh, I think my biggest um issue is that he's just not really in informed on the
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issues, you know, like um Jesse Michaels asserted like a dozen false claims um in
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like 30 seconds and and Michael didn't check him on any of it. And to be honest, I don't even think he was really um informed enough about the cases and
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the history to really to call him out on it, including the Italy case, you know, and that's just disappointing um because
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he does like it or not represent skeptics and skepticism um as a wider hole. Um and I just think that he does a
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bad bad job at it. And you know, not for nothing, he's kind of positioned himself um to have a career in being a talking
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head, skeptical speaker, and um I think that he can kind of get away with being lazy, but when he gets called into a
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live debate like that, like you got to be prepared for it. And um he just he just wasn't. And it's a shame to see because it could have been [laughter] like shooting fish in a barrel for a lot
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of people. like Jeff Knox would have been up there and would have just shown what a joke Jesse Michaels is to be honest with you. Um maybe that wasn't the point. It's like
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10 minutes, 47 seconds
pro wrestling, you know what I mean? You have a villain, you have a good guy, and you say, "Hey, give me a couple or what what was the who on Netflix? We got We
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got Mike Tyson verse uh what's what's the Logan Paul?" Yeah, you're smiling, man. I watched it, too. I just can't I don't really care
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about the guy very much. It was just what was on and what was everyone was talking about. Yeah.
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But I mean, come on. It's just uh pro wrestling at some point it how I see it.
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I can't prove that. I can't prove that they're in alliance and telling a tale.
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But like yeah, he wasn't very booked up. He looked weak, didn't he?
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And that's the thing. It's like a lot of it I agree. It's almost like, you know, bringing in the heavy and these guys are doing it together. And today, Michael
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Shurmer's out there, you know, Jesse Michaels is like, "Oh, you know, we took him down and we did this and Michael Shurmer is just like playing along with
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it, like, oh, you know, I, you know, I'm here to do it and I'm bringing my agame or I forget what he said, but like you're you're not." And he's just kind of playing along with the entertainment
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factor of it. Um, and really it just goes to show what a joke Matt Ford is if he couldn't defend his positions against such a trash skeptic as Michael Shurmer.
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It would have been a great opportunity for him to be honest with you. He missed that one.
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[laughter]
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Now, do you think you're the target market for that, Steve? Now, I know that you're we're talking about what we're seeing is not really buying it, but do you think someone like yourself is is
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what was planned for that content? Like, is it just audience capture again, trying to get a broader base?
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Yeah, I mean, obviously not. The the wider audience is the um intended audience is the one that's not informed, even less informed than Michael Shurmer
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is. Um, and again, that's what makes it um, so disheartening because Michaelels does have a pretty wide reach and that
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could have been a moment where we really could have reached some people and been um, a good moment for skepticism and to
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promote skepticism and objectivity and prioritization of evidence. It would could have been a really great opportunity to reach a wider audience and instead it wasn't.
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Yeah, I saw um a clip that I guess Jesse Michaels had posted, but it was he and Shurmer talking about that Italian UFO
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crash hoax that I or at least in my opinion from what little I know of it is one of those where it's, you know, it's
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I guess if if he's making his living or whatever, you know, spin you want to put on it as a UFO skeptic, he does have a
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greater duty than someone like me who just it, you know, who looks at that case and thinks it's so ridiculous that I don't want to read about it even that
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he does have some some kind of obligation to get, you know, to get u boned up on on on the background on some
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of that stuff. But I don't know, you know, even if he was, you might put up a better argument, but I don't know that it would make much of a difference for
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that audience, right? But um yeah, I agree. I don't know that it would have made a huge difference, but
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like you said, I think that at least the he would have meant the responsibility.
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You know, I think that he does owe a responsibility to to to show up and to to represent skepticism and skeptics um in a in a better manner than he did that there.
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14 minutes
Yeah. Yeah. Fair. Fair.
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Has Shermer always been a uh UFO skeptic or or has he been like on other topics as well? I I don't know much about Shmer.
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He's a kind of allround um everyman skeptic. He's written about like
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Holocaust denial. Um he's written about like ESP and psychic stuff. So broad range.
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Yeah, he is um dialed in and like his his job is like skeptic, right? Like I think he holds positions with Skeptical
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14 minutes, 38 seconds
Inquirer and other skeptical organizations. He does the skeptical cruises that people pay to go on and stuff like he he is a skeptic full time.
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Um so that's why I really do feel like he had more of a responsibility than he than he brought to the table. Skeptic cruises.
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[laughter]
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What a blast, right? Yeah.
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Wow. What a what it's a fun sounding thing. [laughter] And that's that's the thing like it's kind of like the other side of the coin
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to like the ancient aliens poses and stuff, you know?
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Yeah. I was Yeah. It's like symbiotic uh exploitation all around. Absolutely.
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Uh um and this I I something I bookmarked here. Let me see if I can share the screen here while I'm got it pulled up.
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Let's try this. Um share my screen.
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15 minutes, 35 seconds
So [snorts] here was see where we go.
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15 minutes, 41 seconds
All right. So uh last last episode if anybody was here or listening Jeeoff and I talked to Greg Little, we talked a
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little bit about uh [snorts] plasmas as possibly the uh the stimulus behind some UFO encounters or some UFO sightings.
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And seems like plasmas are starting to to make their way into uh kind of the popular UFO scene again. I guess I just
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saw that Shurmer had posted this uh this paper on um electromagnetic fields and I
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haven't had a chance to to read through it yet, but I've always had some some some level of interest in that kind of electromagnetic field relationship to to
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UFO. I I I think if there is anything unusual or interesting, well, there is anything, how should I say it? Uh,
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non-prosaic maybe, or yeah, I guess I'll stick with unusual, then maybe some kind of plasma phenomenon might be it. But even then, that's that's, you know,
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that's um stepping out quite a bit. But just just thought it was interesting.
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There's some some some stuff that he's putting out there on plasmas and EM fields as relates to UFO
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What what's like the what are like the the overview theories on plasmas? What is there like a main theory someone has about like what they are or are there
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like multiple different ideas about what they I I I heard some of the uh conversation last week. I was a little bit late but uh I I I keep
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hearing classes like well they're all over I keep hearing about this uh and seeing stuff on Twitter about them. It's pretty broad.
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Yeah, you can pick any There has long been you know the Go ahead. Go ahead.
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I was say you could pick any end of the spectrum on that. You have it. It's the you know uh operating model of that
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drive the craft right the displaced gravity to it's a phenomenon that's up in the atmosphere that shows itself you
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know in various forms through testing and I think there's papers on it but but you know nothing peer- reviewviewed on that you can look it up like uh
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scientists see uh single like plasma organisms in the air and they have pictures of it but again it's just a
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paper that's on a less reputable forum with no peer reviews, anything like that. So, I think it it ranges
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and I and I remember Greg had even mentioned something about plasma organisms which I was puzzled by what you know the the specifics of that but
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also even going back to I know John Keel had talked about you know the effect of electromagnetic radiation on the brain and
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and all that that kind of stuff. So there there's certainly some kind of I guess you could call it a potential mechanism that that you know
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electromagnetic radiation could could cause hallucinations or or something like that. But um
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18 minutes, 36 seconds
it's pretty um it's it's pretty up in the air in terms of evidence like there has been a scientific paper which was written I think 10 years ago or so. It
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was to do with um spectrographic analysis of a captured ball lightning event and it was only [clears throat] like half a second or something like that.
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18 minutes, 55 seconds
So that already is in congruent with most UFO reports. Um yeah, you know, it does potentially give some grounding to
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naturalistic phenomenon which could have you know some potential to explain UFOs but um it's [snorts] really like a lot
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of different theories or hypotheses um which have been sort of thrown into this catch all
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term or grabbag called bore lightning, right? Or plasma. Uh, and I I know that
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19 minutes, 26 seconds
like Phil Class and some other skeptics back in the day, they touted um plasma as a potential UFO explanation as well,
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19 minutes, 33 seconds
but I think the evidence for it has always been fairly weak, but that's certainly not to dismiss it.
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I remember the first time I like saw I mean, I grew up in New York City. We don't get much ball lightning here, but I remember seeing like the first time I
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saw a video of like actual ball lightning phenomena. I was like, "Oh, I could totally see how someone would would see that and and say that's, you
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know, that's a a thinking being piece of energy, you know, that has a a thought of its own or or a sense of um I guess
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just existence. I mean, it just looked like something out of a sci-fi movie when I first saw like what ball lightning actually was."
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You saw it? You actually saw there? There were no I just saw like I saw a video of like of an example of what ball lightning was and I had never
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seen it before. I mean growing up in New York it's just not something we get here and I was like oh I could I mean I could totally see how someone would see that and go oh
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that's that looks like it's some kind of alien craft or or some kind of being or something. I mean because it really does look a pretty crazy looking thing.
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Yeah. I could see it being being like orb like right or Right. Yeah. Um, and Greg had even mentioned and and again I don't know the research on this but but that there's
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you know like naval warfare studies where where the plasma showed uh what did he call it uh signs of evolution or almost almost like survival of the
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fittest kind of stuff. I I can't recall the exact verbiage he used but that was really really interesting. Um
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yeah and you know I think most uh most of the UFO phenomenon can be readily explained by kind of prosaic stuff that
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we already understand but uh there could be some element of of something going on you know with some kind of
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21 minutes, 18 seconds
electromagnetic phenomenon I guess certainly more likely than when uh Luna talks about intradimensional and uses
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that word without I think grasping what it what she really means by it.
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21 minutes, 32 seconds
Yeah. Are are you sure the video you saw was even a real video about lightning? I mean, there's a lot of fake videos out there that are actually
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It was It was on like a It was on like a Weather Channel documentary or something. Yeah. That doesn't mean anything.
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[laughter]
21:46
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[gasps]
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Yeah. even um I think and Luis was just talking about um you know lab results
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and successes as as far as generating plasma um ball lightning and I think as far as I I recall and correct me if I'm
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wrong but wasn't the only alleged um successful uh replication done by a
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Chinese university I think for a fraction of a second or something. I know there was a picture tied to that too
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that was um filmed or captured like out in the open. It wasn't in a laboratory but they have okay done other stuff in laboratories not
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just in China but around the world I think in mostly in Europe um where they've sort of replicated some ball
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22 minutes, 34 seconds
lining type phenomena but yeah so the only the only documented instance where they've got it in a
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scientific paper is the Chinese uh paper which is only like for half a second or
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something like that, right? And if I remember, I think that there were some questions as to the validity and veracity of of the assertions, right?
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Yeah, I think so. So, yeah, even that is kind of not 100%.
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There's a there's a great video on Vimeo called Ball Lightning. Is it or isn't it? And it's it's only about 30 minutes
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23 minutes, 15 seconds
long, but it talks about ball lightning and some of these cases and like some of these sightings that pilots had in World War II, for example, that really seemed
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lifelike, like the like the lightning was moving around controlled and doing things intentionally. And I believe he
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makes he compares it also like UFO sightings and whatnot as well. It's a really interesting video. It's just your Vimeo all lightning is it or isn't it?
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23 minutes, 39 seconds
And you'll find it. Write that down. So, so Jeff, you might know this, too.
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And I think um it it doesn't sound like the description of what we're talking about fits probably anybody's sighting.
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Like, you know, the closest we got is we think someone saw maybe a video that was or a picture that may have been right.
23:58
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So, the odds of someone actually reporting this is super super small. Um Jeff, you might know this too. uh in one
24:05
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of um Michael Sword's blogs there was a he helped refine um a really nice framework for cuos I think it was and he
24:14
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said that like you know uh most most identifications that are small in size short in time are are almost indefinitely prosaic misidentifications
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and that there was a correlation to anomalous things where the bigger it was and the longer the time was more of the
24:30
24 minutes, 30 seconds
anomalous uh like truly like either agnostic not sure what that is or harder to discern what it was. Do do I do you
24:39
24 minutes, 39 seconds
recall that one, Jeff? I don't know if there's like a professor or something that coined that term, but I'm pretty sure he's mentioned that.
24:46
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I don't recall that specific blog post.
24:48
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But in the other hand, that's kind of almost the opposite. That's true a lot of the times. Like if somebody believes they're seeing something for an extended
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duration of time, it's almost always astronomical. Um, and they're misidentifying it. The same reason that even Heinneck and other people have
25:02
25 minutes, 2 seconds
pointed out if somebody's a repeater, if they believe they're seeing something basically like every day, they're not seeing a UFO. They're they're
25:09
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misidentifying something prosaic that's happening like a plane route or you know a satellite or something astronomical as a UFO.
25:18
25 minutes, 18 seconds
Yeah, it's more of a a witness uh personality or perceptual issue maybe in that. Yeah, you know, I might have that backwards, but yeah,
25:27
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there there was something like that where it was it was a nice framework where I was like, "Oh, that's really interesting." Mostly anomalous anomalous stuff goes in like this quadrant of the
25:36
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right whatever the the relationship between time and size is or something.
25:41
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I mean, I I can see the logic behind that. I guess the idea being the longer you have eyes on something, the less likely you are to misidentify it, but I
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just I don't believe that's actually true. So, sure. Let me see if I But um it Yeah, but ball lighting itself like who it's
25:58
25 minutes, 58 seconds
it's hard to say, you know, um you're more likely like get struck by lightning based on the number of times you
26:05
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said pulled this pulled this quote up from the from the chat here. Somebody posted from from an article that was uh uh that that people that are close to
26:14
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lightning strikes may may uh have enough enough uh energy I guess you know in
26:20
26 minutes, 20 seconds
their brain in their neoortex to anyway I didn't never had heard that before.
26:26
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That's kind of interesting. I have to pull that paper up. 1% of close lightning experiencers are likely to perceive transcranially induced above threshold cortical stimula. H.
26:36
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Well, what about that one guy that was hit by lightning like seven something separate times over the course of his life? You know, like there are people that repeatedly get hit by lightning.
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It's almost like they're lightning magnets.
26:47
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So strange. And while we're on this topic, by the way, I'll I did talk to Greg. He's he's trying to find uh the Pursinger helmet that he's he's got
26:56
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somewhere in his his garage or his storage. So, he said when he finds it, he's going to mail it over. So, he's he's still on the hunt. So, we get one.
27:03
27 minutes, 3 seconds
Maybe we can test out some of these uh [laughter] some of these electromagnetic effects.
27:07
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Is [snorts] that just a moped helmet that they probably Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He did some interesting uh interesting ways of putting these things together. It looked like Persinger did. Yeah.
27:17
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That looks like some of the amateur like uh BOF feedback stuff my dad used to get back in the 80s in San Francisco area.
27:25
27 minutes, 25 seconds
He had somebody that designed him uh these glasses with blinking LEDs for doing like with binaural beats and
27:32
27 minutes, 32 seconds
visual stimulation. And my dad was a chiropractor and this was one of his patients. He couldn't pay the bill, but he was a nerd and he messed around with
27:40
27 minutes, 40 seconds
this stuff. So, he gave my dad this equipment and he'd hook it up into an old serial port, you know, like on an old 286 laptop and it would control the LEDs and
27:48
27 minutes, 48 seconds
it's kind of fun. [laughter]
27:51
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[snorts]
27:52
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Yeah. I was um looking back at some of that Persinger research, you know, from from 25 years ago or whatever now, and a
28:00
28 minutes
lot of the replication research didn't seem to be there. Um, you know, plus you've got the issue these these magnets are they're not
28:08
28 minutes, 8 seconds
strong, and they're not strong like like like the magnets that they would use for a transcranial magnetic stimulation treatment. They're, you know, they're
28:16
28 minutes, 16 seconds
they're magnets that you wouldn't think would actually pierce the, you know, penetrate the s the skull of of of the the head. So, I I don't know. I guess um
28:25
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still certainly interesting, but but whether Persinger's sensed presence effect has really been found to to hold up or not, I don't know.
28:35
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Are you guys familiar with the Condine report? Not the Condan report, the Condine report, which is a Australian, New Zealand or UK. Okay. UK
28:43
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Ministry of Defense air corridor or something some region of airspace that they were monitoring. Um this report
28:51
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came out circa 2001 I think or it was declassified.
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Um that British eupfologist journalist um Jeff you would know uh what's his name again?
29:06
29 minutes, 6 seconds
He's he's put out a lot of stuff. Sorry. Nick Pope.
29:10
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No not Nick Pope. another another guy David.
29:15
29 minutes, 15 seconds
Yeah. Yeah. Um so this report was like multiple hundreds pages long and it talked about plasma and ball lightning as possible.
29:27
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It it really pushed that theory. Um but it wasn't peer-reviewed because it was a classified, you know, report. So that's got problems.
29:36
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It also cited a lot of Soviet research for whatever that's worth. the Soviets were apparently very very much into
29:43
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plasma stuff. So yeah, cited a lot of that their research and um it really came to the conclusion that plasma was
29:52
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like a likely explanation for many UFO reports, but as I mentioned, it's it was never peer-reviewed. Yeah.
29:59
29 minutes, 59 seconds
So there's always the potential to do bad science when you're in a classified setting.
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Did you see that David Clark just recently said they got a few more pages out of the condine report? Like it had been previously released, but they had
30:13
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classified some of the photos or the sketches of US potentially secret US aircraft and those were just recently
30:21
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released like this year. And of course they're like hypothetical aircraft that we don't have and there's no proof ever existed.
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So really wasn't much reason to classify any of that. But yeah, and if um if I remember correctly,
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that report was written by one person, a guy named Ron Hadau, um who had retired
30:41
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actually not long before and was brought back to write that report. Um and I just think that it needs to be taken, like
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Luis was kind of mentioning, with some grains of salt. For for sure.
30:53
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Yeah. Yeah. Well, people bring up that report as it's like some kind of proof that the uh uh Rendlessham that
31:01
31 minutes, 1 second
Rendlessham guy was actually injured uh in that incident. When really all the report is it's a hypothetical. It says
31:07
31 minutes, 7 seconds
if these craft actually have crazy like fields and energy like this and you were close to it, then yeah, it's feasible
31:14
31 minutes, 14 seconds
you could suffer injury from it. But people if Yeah. absolute proof and it's not.
31:21
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Yeah. John Burrow loves loves to do that. I mean, we were just talking about the um the God helmet. He loves loves to bring that up still in every interview.
31:29
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Does he rely on that for evidence of his own stuff? Is that how he ties it in or I forget now, but basically he was kind
31:37
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of, you know, given the helmet and was able to try it on and and uh I forget it, you know, exactly who he talked to or I'm assuming it was like Kit Green
31:46
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and and Hal and those guys and stuff, but he always likes to tie that in as he does anything that's remotely connected.
31:53
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Yeah. Yeah. and like we don't even know that he was um injured. You know, he talks about these injuries and um
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alleged proof and stuff, but he's never shown his medical records. In fact, he um says that he he can't even get them
32:10
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and that he was told if he ever foyas for them again that they'll revoke um his uh veterans benefits and his his
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32 minutes, 18 seconds
health insurance. Like, these are just wild claims, you know?
32:22
32 minutes, 22 seconds
There's there's no there's no way to correlate his health problems he developed later in his life with an alleged UFO sighting he had decades
32:30
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earlier. There's just no way to do that whatsoever. And so like the idea he can claim he tries to claim that he was injured by this UFO is just one of the
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most ridiculous things to me in this entire topic. Like it's just it's false and there's no way he can prove that. None.
32:46
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Yeah. because he didn't have a a heart condition show up on an initial medical screen when he was in his teens in the
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1970s and then one did show up like 20 years later doesn't mean that there's a correlation to it happened because of that night in Rendlessham, right?
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It's it's a bunch of like ad hoc postfact like after the fact kind of like trying to tie things together that just really aren't tied together.
33:13
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Yeah. And hi Rachel, saw you in the chat there. And that, as Rachel just mentioned, that's actually one of the, as I had alluded to with with regarding Shurmer, he's he's got some pretty
33:21
33 minutes, 21 seconds
distasteful views about uh this tolerance towards towards many other people. So um but right now, we were talking about Burroughs, but just to
33:29
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answer the question, um Burrow's uh Yeah. Yeah. Um, of course I spent some
33:37
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time many years ago with Larry Warren, who was another witness who alleged to have been at at Rendlessham, but who
33:45
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even knows who was there on which day, you know, at this point, I guess, is what I was getting at, right? Um,
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[clears throat]
33:52
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and then you have people like like Gary Nol and others talking about alleged gray matter injury, lesions or whatever
33:59
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from being around UFOs. But the the thing is like most adults over the age of 40 have gray matter lesions like on
34:07
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their brain that I was just about to say you found that's that was the same issue that they had with uh one of those initial Havana studies reports where they were finding
34:15
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all this stuff but they didn't have a comparison that most people will have you know or a large percentage of people will have these kinds of these kinds of
34:23
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things right so and they can't prove um gray matter issues without um doing an autopsy
34:30
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Right. If if I remember correctly. So it's not something that can be substantiated while you're living.
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Yeah.
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[clears throat]
34:41
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Like they have to actually look at like slides of your brains to see if there's gray matter is issues.
34:48
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Isn't that also true for TBI? Like to actually tech to to like really prove it like they have to actually look at like your brain like after you're dead. I
34:57
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think with a higher density like fMRI or an MRI scan they can get indications but I don't think they can prove it to that level of certainty that they could
35:05
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without a you know hands-on um and of course you know one of those uh DIDs the durs that the OSAP program did
35:14
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was on you know these alleged like anomalous health effects from UFOs but the problem is that that report was
35:21
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largely based on John Shusler's catalog of physical like effects like that he put out which contains a large amount of
35:29
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weekly World News, National Inquirer, duplicate cases, uh most of the cases have never actually been investigated
35:37
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and so it's all based on just kind of bad data to begin with.
35:41
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Jeff, can you explain that piece to me too? Were they basically just paying someone to do their homework and
35:50
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put together a database of all different kinds of claims so they can look like they did this big study and that they
35:57
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were this it looked like just like a farce, like a front, which I think would you agree it was, but to what end? Like what what what was that about? Why would
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they borrow that information? Why were they presented off as like a test that they conducted as opposed to just things they co collated? What's your thought on that?
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I mean, I think like Louise can probably go into this a bit more as he digs into all that OAP stuff, but uh Okay.
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I think a lot of the reports were really just they they were they were actually the only real output of the entire program. They had health effects fund. Yeah.
36:28
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They had to have something to show for the money that they got. And so they paid all these kind of like fringe characters and and physicists and people
36:37
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in these kind of like that have a a background doing kind of like these hypothetical physics things and other kind of topics to write to can basically
36:44
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bust out a couple papers for them real quick so they had something to show as far as like the I guess like Kit Green and all that got involved on the
36:52
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Namas health effects paper. But again, like without having, you know, somebody that you know was really injured by a
37:00
37 minutes
craft that you can analyze, all they had to go on was old stories mine from UFO lore and literature. And there was already an existing catalog of that
37:09
37 minutes, 9 seconds
created by Shusler that they just decided to build on.
37:12
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Yeah, I I agree with the comment about the boondoggle, but I I always I never I never like just leaving it alone. I like
37:19
37 minutes, 19 seconds
to go as to like the why. Like there's not just a dead end. It's just because because we got some money and we had some fun. It's it's not like they went
37:26
37 minutes, 26 seconds
out to the desert, got drunk, right, smoked some weed, and they're like, "Oh we have to like write a report, right, on a government dime like a high
37:33
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schooler would." That it it appears they were trying to make a sap, right? They were trying to show credibility to like
37:41
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uh put in front of the government, we want to become a an access program so that we can have clearances and do tech.
37:46
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That's my speculation. But is there anything is there any meat to that at all or am I just speculating?
37:53
37 minutes, 53 seconds
A lot of those guys were fresh from I don't know fresh but Stargate. Yeah. You know when that was shut down.
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38 minutes
Oh, it's a boy club for sure. All the guys are old buddies from the CIA, right?
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Yeah. It was kind of like a continuity effort like so they went to Bigalow who was doing the Nets thing and then that culminated in OSAP
38:13
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basically. So they're just trying to survive and and and prove their existence to the next program
38:20
38 minutes, 20 seconds
bringing in a lot of like kind of the paranormal overlaps and coralates of UFOs. So one of the things that they
38:27
38 minutes, 27 seconds
said as a critique of previous UFO efforts was that it didn't take enough of account into like the paranormal parasychology aspect. Yeah.
38:36
38 minutes, 36 seconds
They thought that that was like a shortcoming of those previous efforts and so they said just nuts and bolts, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
38:44
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So they wanted to expand it into like the sigh stuff. Um other kind of speculative things. Um but
38:52
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then they started to but yeah basically what you guys were alluding to a moment ago just using uh cataloges which were
39:00
39 minutes
probably not very good. So they they were using like different databases and not really vetting them for quality.
39:06
39 minutes, 6 seconds
Just kind of going off of them as like assuming that they're good. So [snorts] I get like continuity with like the bureaucrats who just want their next project and their next funding, but then you wrote Bigalow to this too.
39:17
39 minutes, 17 seconds
It's almost it almost gets to like borderline moneyaundering at a point where it's like, "Hey, we need a home.
39:23
39 minutes, 23 seconds
Guess what? You can get a clearance and build a facility and by the way, you want to go to space and make space hotels, right? Like maybe this is something in it for you, too." You know
39:31
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what I'm saying? It gets a little dirtier. I don't like just saying like, "Ah, it was a waste of money." And and you know, I I appreciate um you know, Stephen Greenre's work on this and
39:39
39 minutes, 39 seconds
calling it out, but I'm not sure the ridicule like was effective because you just kind of knocked people away who didn't want to hear it. And then but like think about
39:46
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the what they're actually doing. Remove the spooky stuff. Remove the alien stuff. What were they actually doing?
39:52
39 minutes, 52 seconds
And it was really unethical and almost moneyaundering. And at a point I'm throwing these accusations pretty loosely, but like I that's what I care
39:59
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about. I'm like a little laser focused on that and even today what they're doing you know.
40:05
40 minutes, 5 seconds
Yeah bit bit of an aspect of that because apparently some of the people involved in OSAP when they were in the
40:11
40 minutes, 11 seconds
program they were promoting um Bigalow's aerospace space hotel stuff using I think some of the funding
40:20
40 minutes, 20 seconds
I was joking was he really doing space hotels? I I think I read that subconsciously. Okay. Wow. Wow. Just making a joke. I think he sued NASA as well for not going ahead with it.
40:31
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Something to that effect. But um yeah, there was some kind of stuff there where the money was used for other stuff, not
40:37
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just for OSAP, but um it's still it's still fairly murky. There's still a lot of stuff we don't know about OSAP. Yeah.
40:45
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But it's slowly coming out.
40:47
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I mean, Big was he was interested in I mean, he had an interest in the topic, too. It, you know, it wasn't just about like a moneyaundering or or a you know, money
40:56
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thing. He he he's a rich guy with money who's got interest in in a topic. He wants to explore it. You know, it's rarely a linear scheme. You're right. There's a lot of mixed stuff.
41:05
41 minutes, 5 seconds
Jeeoff, you were going to say something where you're going to jump in with
41:08
41 minutes, 8 seconds
[clears throat]
41:08
41 minutes, 8 seconds
um Well, just as far as that like and doesn't it I believe Big even says that the government actually didn't give them a bunch of the money they were supposed to get and that he actually payrolled it
41:17
41 minutes, 17 seconds
privately for Yeah. the last last like three months.
41:20
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Yeah. Out of pocket. So, but uh and what else I was just going to say was you recall the whole the this program was
41:27
41 minutes, 27 seconds
actually sold not as UFO program but as looking at what hypothetical developments the foreign enemy might
41:33
41 minutes, 33 seconds
develop over the next like 50 60 years or you know in the kind of near and distant future and that's what all those DRDs kind of address that the kind of
41:42
41 minutes, 42 seconds
hypothetical propulsion and other kind of like papers that would fit in the program that it was sold at and to be honest these papers are not any
41:49
41 minutes, 49 seconds
different than papers that have been part of other programs like NASA's breakthrough propulsion uh physics project they had in the 90s. Um the Air
41:57
41 minutes, 57 seconds
Force Research Laboratory had various projects on exotic propulsion. So there and it's a lot of the same people that wrote those papers are the same people
42:05
42 minutes, 5 seconds
that wrote the offset papers in fact and so I think some of the papers was just because like they had to meet the contractual obligation of what they
42:13
42 minutes, 13 seconds
actually sold the program as in the first place. Meanwhile, in the back end, they were secretly looking at the Woo and the psychics and the ghost
42:22
42 minutes, 22 seconds
hitchhikers and the werewolves and whatnot.
42:26
42 minutes, 26 seconds
I [clears throat] didn't know that Bigalow Aerospace had filed a bankruptcy or had filed Chapter 11 2011.
42:33
42 minutes, 33 seconds
Um, and I also didn't know till recently that there were some allegations that Bigalow had uh had funded or or supported or
42:40
42 minutes, 40 seconds
whatever you want to call it, Art Bell when he first started. So, I kind of wonder how much of a lot of the current conversation is is uh Bigalow might have some responsibility.
42:50
42 minutes, 50 seconds
I mean, you can draw. Oh, go ahead, Steve.
42:53
42 minutes, 53 seconds
I was just want to say that's not suspicion. Um they said right in the very beginning of in fact Art Bell's very first show which was on before he
43:01
43 minutes, 1 second
started Coast to Coast. It was called um something 2000 if I'm not mistaken.
43:06
43 minutes, 6 seconds
I remember that movie. Yeah. Right in the very beginning they said and in between commercial breaks they said brought to you by the Bigalow
43:13
43 minutes, 13 seconds
Foundation. He was the primary sponsor that gave um Artbell his initial funding. Wow. Got to find that ad.
43:21
43 minutes, 21 seconds
I had no idea. I had no idea.
43:23
43 minutes, 23 seconds
Linked um he linked George Knap and um and Artbell up. Yeah. like he had a lot of influence on the topic especially in
43:30
43 minutes, 30 seconds
the um you know early 90s late 80s kind of era getting people together giving them money to continue their their
43:38
43 minutes, 38 seconds
little schemes and fun adventures but yeah it's funny when you look at something like the durs um which are 34
43:46
43 minutes, 46 seconds
papers that were used to justify a $20 million program um that barely did that
43:54
43 minutes, 54 seconds
right um but these were papers that were already written and were bought by Bigalow for like $1,000 a piece. So essentially, he got a $20 million
44:03
44 minutes, 3 seconds
program fulfilled by $30,000 in paper.
44:07
44 minutes, 7 seconds
The papers weren't specifically written for the project. They were they were already written. Wow.
44:11
44 minutes, 11 seconds
Right. Written by people like Eric Davis and Kit Green. Um Eric Davis wrote, you know, the teleportation um one under um that was in like 2004.
44:22
44 minutes, 22 seconds
And a lot of these were just recycled papers um that Bigalow bought and used to justify his his $20 million program payout.
44:30
44 minutes, 30 seconds
No, I think it's I'm sorry. I was gonna I think it's often Sorry, Jeeoff, go ahead. You go ahead.
44:37
44 minutes, 37 seconds
I was just gonna say it's all the Bigalow Sri put off nexus. The same [laughter] people last 60 years that have been selling the That That's how I exactly how I see it.
44:48
44 minutes, 48 seconds
I was just going to add I think it's dangerous often times to try to draw like a a direct line from someone's personal
44:55
44 minutes, 55 seconds
psychology to their UFO stuff, but Bigalow I'm I'm struck by the fact that he has had a lot of loss in his life that seems
45:03
45 minutes, 3 seconds
maybe to relate to his desires to, you know, I don't know, but I know he lost a son and I guess a wife, right?
45:11
45 minutes, 11 seconds
Yep.
45:12
45 minutes, 12 seconds
Yeah. Do you guys have a copy of his his book series? He funded the papers on life after death. You know, the existence of consciousness after you die.
45:20
45 minutes, 20 seconds
I know what you're talking about, but I don't have it.
45:22
45 minutes, 22 seconds
Yeah, they were given away for free. So, I have I have it's a big box set of like five hardcore volumes in it in a box.
45:28
45 minutes, 28 seconds
And it was free. I wouldn't have paid for it, but
45:31
45 minutes, 31 seconds
[laughter]
45:31
45 minutes, 31 seconds
uh so they sent it. So, did you What's How big of it? Is it like a big set? Like it's like it's like this wide.
45:38
45 minutes, 38 seconds
[laughter]
45:39
45 minutes, 39 seconds
It's Yeah, they just charge it for the shipping or what? They were free.
45:43
45 minutes, 43 seconds
Completely free. They paid to ship it and everything. And they spent a good amount of money printing this beast. So, yeah.
45:50
45 minutes, 50 seconds
Is this the um is this book a collection of papers? Yeah.
45:55
45 minutes, 55 seconds
Didn't he like have a have an essay contest for people? What was this five or six years ago with like grand prizes? First, second, and third.
46:03
46 minutes, 3 seconds
Yeah. Yeah. That's what And this is a collection of all the the best papers, I guess, right?
46:08
46 minutes, 8 seconds
Yep. It's so weird once you become a billionaire, you get you like take on like a villain arc off the shelf, right?
46:16
46 minutes, 16 seconds
I think I like Batman. I'm like, oh, like he wants to build a Lazarus pit and bring people back to he doesn't want to die and live forever. It's like as soon
46:23
46 minutes, 23 seconds
as you get become a a billionaire, I don't know if it's a requirement to be a sociopath or not, but then all of a sudden you start playing I'm being a little I'm not being very
46:31
46 minutes, 31 seconds
charitable to, you know, loss and chicken or the egg kind of thing. Yeah.
46:34
46 minutes, 34 seconds
But for sure like there's this certain like mentality that goes into what you want to do with a billion US a space hotel and um so it you know we can't peg
46:43
46 minutes, 43 seconds
intent but I I do I do want to know like what they were were doing and I Luis sounds like you put a lot of work into it too and I I
46:52
46 minutes, 52 seconds
think it's just it's the next book that gets written 20 years down the road when more stuff comes out and foyer releases and I just I want to know the whole
46:59
46 minutes, 59 seconds
story and why people do that stuff and um it's never it's never linear. It's never just like they all met up at a
47:07
47 minutes, 7 seconds
dinner and oceans 11 this thing. Uh, everyone sometimes unintended consequences roll out from things.
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Sometimes some things are planned like what was Laty's motivation? Just I have a great idea to like make a name for myself and that was it. Like you know
47:23
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like I don't know and I want to find those things out. Um, I had another question for you too if you don't mind moving on from this. I had a question
47:32
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for Dr. Tim too because I was watching a live stream before this and it was about the files and I just want to hear what people think about it and
47:41
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[snorts]
47:43
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what is it that bring people back to like the conf maybe it is just confirmation bias but maybe you can
47:49
47 minutes, 49 seconds
unpack a little bit more where I hear a lot of the disclosure stuff that's going on and like the logical answer is like
47:57
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you're getting teased, you're getting tricked and then they start the confirmation bias betrayal of like telling the story of well it's actually
48:05
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on purpose and slow and um it's true and it's there and it's going to happen and it never does but it's I guess it's like
48:14
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religion too where you have to kind of like make up the next thing to hang on.
48:17
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Is it just plain confirmation bias? Is there something else going on there?
48:21
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Because I can't unsee it. I just I see a bunch of folks like we just talked about OAP that's playing a trick or trying to like just do something very mundane and
48:29
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very like um simple-minded like we're just trying to exist our program and then I hear this mental gymnastics going on. Can you unpack a little bit what's going on there and why it perpetuates?
48:41
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Yeah, I I well I think certainly part of it confirmation bias. think the I think the UFO thing is in a particular
48:48
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area where the lack of evidence becomes evidence obviously, right, for for some people that well the the UFO files are going to be great and then when they're
48:56
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not that's evidence that the great stuff is hidden behind behind something else, right? It's kind of a neverending cycle
49:03
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of getting your hopes up for to have your belief maybe verified and then um
49:11
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yeah, it's almost like an everinccreasing kind of I don't call it a game, right? But a psychological game maybe, you know, prophecy that never fails.
49:22
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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
49:24
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But like just gets to a religious aspect, doesn't it? Religion is uh heavily imbued in this topic. even if people don't realize it.
49:33
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So kind of the aliens as celestial savior sometimes as demon right that we hope that they save us with their free energy tech or whatever.
49:43
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Yeah. And I mean Stephen it's kind of simplistic to say but I've said it before so I might as well say it again.
49:48
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You know human beings always expect something to come from the sky and save them whether it be an angel or now it's an alien or it's a
49:56
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so I think on that level it is almost uh what would you call it? an atheistic religion some some degree, right?
50:03
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It it is cuz you know I remember when the New Jersey drone flap was was at was like the big news. Um and this was around the time I think I was still kind
50:11
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of like buying into the whole disclosure thing and I was like I want to go drive my car out to New Jersey. Were you scared?
50:19
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No. I was like pumped. I was like let's go to New Jersey. Let's see some of these things. Like [laughter] let's let's do it. you know, and and this was around the time I was like watching the
50:27
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David Gresian interviews and I was like, "Let's go to New Jersey. They're finally here, you know, and of course there was it was planes and and misidentified
50:35
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stars and and satellites and the media hype around it was crazy." And when that hype is so overwhelming, you know, that
50:42
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that builds your your emotions up and it and it gets people excited, you know, for good easily. It's not hard.
50:51
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Yeah. and the the the verification or the the the good evidence that ever came out of any of that drone stuff was
50:59
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pretty it's a pretty good indicator about how people deal with things that are in the sky. think, you know, there wasn't really any evidence for the most
51:06
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part that there were, you know, thousands of unknown drones flying around over.
51:11
51 minutes, 11 seconds
But yeah, and once people believe something, it it really takes a lot, no matter what led
51:20
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them to believe that, it really takes a lot to get them to come off that or to re um reook, you know, look at that,
51:28
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reinvestigate that, um change their position. Um, and like that drone wave, like it just shocked me how many people
51:36
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would look at a news report that would allege these um drone incursions and then show footage of what literally
51:43
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looked exactly like an airplane or a helicopter. And and yet they would they weren't like, "Well, that that just looks like an airplane or a helicopter."
51:52
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Instead, they're just like going with that narrative and believing it, right?
51:56
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And obviously because they already had a predisposition to believing these things anyway, right? Um and Jeff made a good
52:03
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point a few days ago um about like the nature of social media and UFO Twitter in general. Um like these are
52:10
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specifically the myself included um the people that tend to come onto social media and get publicly involved in UFOs
52:18
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tend to be more extreme or more invested. Um, so the people that are, you know, kind of looking at it
52:24
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objectively and quietly and making um their determinations based on evidence, like we're just not seeing a lot of those people, right? Yeah.
52:32
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Um there's a very specific core people that um are on, you know, UFO social media. Um and they're going to be dieards.
52:40
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And I think once you're invested, whether that be as your own personal belief or you're working for some kind of sap hope to be or or whatever, right?
52:48
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Then then it it becomes a little easier the next day to take a questionable piece of evidence and interpret it in a favorable way. Right.
52:58
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Um definitely you know that the drone stuff wasn't all that long ago. Matt's basically a baby.
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I know. I That's what I'm trying to tell. I've been trying to say that for ages. Nobody listens to me. They they all think I'm like this guy who's been hating on aliens for years of his life.
53:16
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It's like no man. I got I got out of this pretty recently.
53:19
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That's I got to give you respect for how quickly you've kind of uh adopted the critical thinking and uh embraced a more rational approach to the UFO topic.
53:29
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That's what Steve Steve's always saying the same thing to me. He's always like, "Oh, you're so fresh. You just got out of it." So here here's the interesting thing is like you you joke about like, "Oh, you
53:38
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gained critical thinking." But this is like something where, you know, like in sports or something, someone is like inherently good at something and you're like, "Oh, teach me how to like shoot
53:46
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like that." And you're like, "Right, huh, I don't actually know how to teach you how to do that. I just do it. It's muscle memory for me." And I and I feel like a lot of people
53:53
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who are like very in the deep end with this. It's just like, well, come on.
53:57
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Everybody knows the sequence of events of this thing. And it's just like, you idiot. And that that turns people off obvious because, you know, there's
54:05
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abysal reaction always to that. I want to accept that. that's too much to take.
54:08
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Whatever that is. But I wonder what if you break that down what it really is.
54:12
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Like what frameworks are you using? I think of like like media literacy is a pretty obvious one. I think co taught me
54:19
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something where I I knew I hear heard something that made me mad or some I disagreed with but I didn't know why I disagreed with it. You know what I mean?
54:27
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And so I didn't know what to do with that. I was like that doesn't sound right but it's a really good argument or something stupid or what if they are right? And I didn't know what to do. And
54:35
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I think co like shoved that down your throat. And there's some people who got swallowed up hole in it and just right swirled one way or the other. I've lost
54:42
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friends over just crazy stuff that one guy became a pastor. Never wasn't even religious. He just became a pastor. I was just like that's that's different,
54:51
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right? And and so there was no discernment man or whatever you want to call it, but what do you what do you how do you break that cycle? How do you tell somebody how to do this like like a Matt
54:59
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did? Matt Matt seemed to like get hit by ball lightning or whatever his story was and he [laughter] he changed his way, right? It was a miracle. Yeah. He got
55:07
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hit in the head and he's like, "What am I doing out in Jersey? I'm supposed to be Yeah. home.
55:12
55 minutes, 12 seconds
[laughter] Got to get out here." But like what do you do? Like how I'm just I'm I feel like if I um I have to put my helmet on. Yeah. It's like It's like
55:21
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Jeff I see I see Jeff say something completely rational and someone just like claws face off on on a response and you're just like, "What the hell is that?" like why can't what do you do how
55:29
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do you break into that or how do you think of a framework to get someone unstuck I guess
55:36
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I think part of the problem is that uh people just don't even get exposed to alternate information or even the more
55:44
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correct or critical information they're stuck in this echo chamber and as you point out anyone that tries to like butt in with the facts or you know try to
55:53
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educate them gets viciously attacked and so some of it is just they're not even exposed to it. But once you can actually if you can somehow expose the
56:02
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people to, you know, the other side of things, uh they can, you know, start to they start to question their own beliefs
56:09
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like wait a second, like this isn't what I thought actually happened. But, you know, some people will just always be stuck in their beliefs. Like no amount
56:16
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of like evidence you can show them is going to convince them otherwise.
56:20
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I always have that little ounce of faith or like I'll I'll give it an effort, be very patient with people. I think I think Steve's reached out to me or something just said like, "Wow, you're
56:27
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like really I would just not put up with that." I'm just like, "Oh, I I have this much patience, I guess, for it and I'll try it once. It's probably gonna get me
56:34
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in trouble. It's probably going to I don't know." Well, weird spot, but I don't begrudge people for not knowing something. Like, I'm not going to call
56:43
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somebody an idiot for not like having the knowledge I do like about some UFO case. Like, I've been doing this for three decades. Like, and I this is
56:51
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basically all I do. I don't begrudge people that don't know stuff. My problem I get is when people know better, they've been told better repeatedly and they still pass on the bad information.
57:02
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That's a good way of putting it.
57:03
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Yeah, that's that's Yeah, that's the worst I think that's the worst aspect of it.
57:08
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It's when people are knowingly pushing something, you know, and I I mentioned this, I think Matt was just the only one on when I when I said this, but there's this, you know, UFOs
57:16
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have been around long enough with enough people interested and and that there's that it is kind of like an onion where there's that surface level of it's
57:23
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ridiculous, but then right beneath that there's a layer of oh, but you know, the Brooklyn Bridge abducted was abduction was witnessed by 15 independent w and
57:31
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you know, information that sounds reasonable and and convincing, but when you really look at it, each of those facts are often times wrong, right? that
57:39
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um you know like 200 people saw the UFO in South Africa. 200 kids like no they actually did not all see the like the
57:47
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UFO. So much of what people have is just what they've heard in a documentary, a book that's been incorrectly copy and pasted for years.
57:56
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And the sad thing is that people that like know better and that have spent more time in this topic just don't get any attention. And not only that, they
58:05
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get actively like attacked. Like I recently bring up some some of the legends of this topic like your Barry Greenwoods, your Michael Swords, your
58:12
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Jan Aldrix, people that have been in the files and been doing this for decades longer than I have and a lot of these new guys were like a bunch of nobody's
58:20
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irrelevant never done anything for the topic. It's like are you are you serious? Like so the people that they could go to to learn something, they just don't have any interest in even doing it.
58:30
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And and it's true. I think when I when I was like, you know, believing dieh hard not that long ago, it's because you're
58:38
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in an echo chamber and that the people whose voices you need to hear are are getting called, you know, disinformation
58:45
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agents and and uh you know, people with bad intentions and and close-minded fools and irrelevant people from the
58:54
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past and and then those people get you miss those people and and so you're stuck in that echo chamber. that that's why it's so hard to get out of it for I think for so many people.
59:03
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There there's a there's Oh, I'm sorry, Steve. Go ahead. No, no, go ahead.
59:07
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Um there's a it's it's very similar. We were talking about religion and the similarities here, but I follow someone named um Dan Mlen
59:17
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on X. Dan Mlullen's a is anyone familiar with that account? Know the name.
59:23
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He's a religion and biblical schol scholar. And I think a lot of like the language that I'm starting to use and think about his framework of thinking
59:31
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about something about using history and context to explain something like the Bible like a story is is awesome. He's a very good communicator. So a good role
59:40
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model in that sense. But the way he breaks it down and says well he'll react to someone's he'll do reaction videos.
59:47
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So he's like a reactionary like for content and it's fun. But, you know, during COVID or during the times where
59:54
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people are talking about like, you know, moral issues or something and what does the Bible say in this? And it's like, well, you know, being gay is wrong. And it's like, well, nowhere in the Bible
1:00:02
1 hour, 2 seconds
does it actually say that. He's like, here's the context. Here's the script.
1:00:06
1 hour, 6 seconds
Here's the language. He speaks like seven languages or something like that and can basically break it down for you in a sense that's undeniable. Of course,
1:00:14
1 hour, 14 seconds
not everyone's going to buy that because they're going to be within their like you said, Jeff, some people are going to learn from it. they'll be they'll be stuck. But in terms of like a framework
1:00:22
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to get people unstuck, I I it's incredible how he does it and he's a true scholar through and through on this. Um so I just wanted to share that
1:00:30
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just as like a check him out because I think you can learn a lot from him and how he educates. Um sometimes it is reactionary, right? It's for it's for
1:00:38
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the clicks, it's for the was the name Dan Mlullen. Is that what he said? Yeah. MCC lan. And um he does it in a really great way.
1:00:46
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It's very clear. Um, it's it's funny because he was my first go-to when people are talking about, you know, aliens in the book of Enoch. And I'm just the first thing I hear, someone's
1:00:54
1 hour, 54 seconds
like, "Oh, yeah. I read the book of Enoch." And I was just like, "Okay, big red flag. Nobody nobody has read the book of Enoch, right?" Because if you
1:01:03
1 hour, 1 minute, 3 seconds
went to Dan's channel, he would say, "Uh, there's only one reliable translation. All them else are because it's just cobbled together." Like we were just talking about Dur.
1:01:12
1 hour, 1 minute, 12 seconds
Someone just literally cobbled together some Google translations and put it together. and the other seven aren't even translated. So, no, you in fact did not read the book of Endoch. And you
1:01:20
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didn't understand that it was like the oldest book of fanfiction essentially.
1:01:25
1 hour, 1 minute, 25 seconds
That's a little hyperbolic, but not too far from the truth where things were borrowed from each other. And so if you're going to say that a bunch of
1:01:33
1 hour, 1 minute, 33 seconds
storytellers went in to ne he he were a lot negotiate what we're all going to believe in and put into the book or lore
1:01:41
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that's what we all believed in that time because the context was we were surrounded by freaking Romans and if we didn't do this it was like a protection
1:01:49
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shield for us right it was almost like counter intelligence the book of uh revelations was almost counter intelligence to keep people away says if you invade us
1:01:57
1 hour, 1 minute, 57 seconds
there's consequences you're worldwide you know so things like that are very interesting contextual. Yeah. Hang on.
1:02:06
1 hour, 2 minutes, 6 seconds
Um well, I got one more note here that I had from my my little scratch pad. Um I don't know if any of you guys saw I had retweeted or tweeted earlier. There's a
1:02:15
1 hour, 2 minutes, 15 seconds
good channel. Do you guys ever watch Lore Lodge? No. Right now.
1:02:20
1 hour, 2 minutes, 20 seconds
Yeah. He did a video most recently. Let me see if I can share it here on the Bet Sphere. If you guys remember that one.
1:02:29
1 hour, 2 minutes, 29 seconds
Um, and yeah, pretty good. And there was a lot of discussion about Highneck and Leo
1:02:36
1 hour, 2 minutes, 36 seconds
Sprinkle, who by the way, if you watch it, I want to spoiler alert, I guess.
1:02:41
1 hour, 2 minutes, 41 seconds
But Leo Sprinkle was on the um, National Enquirer panel to give away the prize for the best UFO evidence. And they
1:02:48
1 hour, 2 minutes, 48 seconds
brought the Bet Sphere to them. And they they he and Hineneck uh, looked at it in the office. They did some tests on it. And there's a whole story he goes into.
1:02:56
1 hour, 2 minutes, 56 seconds
when they finally interviewed Sprinkle about it and he was at advanced stage at this point, but he said he had no recollection whatsoever of this whole thing, even though he, you know,
1:03:05
1 hour, 3 minutes, 5 seconds
acknowledged being there. But, um, second to that, the the witnesses, the Betts family had a discussion um that
1:03:13
1 hour, 3 minutes, 13 seconds
they go into in this video a little bit about how Heinek was very friendly, but almost like he had an ulterior motive, and they were kind of trying to figure
1:03:19
1 hour, 3 minutes, 19 seconds
out what it might be. Um, Aiden Matis, the guy who does the the video, speculates that maybe Heinek with his
1:03:27
1 hour, 3 minutes, 27 seconds
connections knew that they had found some kind of Air Force piece of stuff and he was trying to, you know, shut it down or I don't know. But it was just
1:03:35
1 hour, 3 minutes, 35 seconds
interesting because Hine I' I've heard a few times people say, you know, similar things in in regards to I think I didn't know there was a sphere before
1:03:43
1 hour, 3 minutes, 43 seconds
the Boogas sphere. Like it history repeats itself. I had no idea.
1:03:47
1 hour, 3 minutes, 47 seconds
There is a podcast series a couple years ago called Oddball that's all about the bets here. He mentions that. Yeah. Yeah.
1:03:55
1 hour, 3 minutes, 55 seconds
And I have a long thread on it with, you know, all all the sources you could possibly want. Of course, because I don't know where the original is now, right? The the things.
1:04:04
1 hour, 4 minutes, 4 seconds
Yeah. I don't I don't know where it is.
1:04:06
1 hour, 4 minutes, 6 seconds
It's real and it's missing. Did they win the prize money?
1:04:10
1 hour, 4 minutes, 10 seconds
I think they got I think they got a small amount. Like nobody ever won the large prize. They like they gave just
1:04:17
1 hour, 4 minutes, 17 seconds
like uh like Travis Walton Walton a little bit of money too, you know. So they they give out like a little like a secondary like runnerup prize to these people.
1:04:27
1 hour, 4 minutes, 27 seconds
But yeah, it was basically a guy an artist said he was driving through the area and he had bought a bunch of these balls for, you know, like he was going
1:04:35
1 hour, 4 minutes, 35 seconds
to build a like a sculpture or something and he said some of them fell off of his truck while driving through that area at the time and he believes it was one of his. They they're these ball check vows.
1:04:46
1 hour, 4 minutes, 46 seconds
So yeah, interesting. But yeah, I just thought Yeah, the boophhere is just the latest in a long line of alleged alien spheres.
1:04:56
1 hour, 4 minutes, 56 seconds
Sure.
1:04:56
1 hour, 4 minutes, 56 seconds
Um that goes back at least as far as the bet sphere. And then there was one that Gary Nolan um was promoting a couple years ago, Jim's Balls.
1:05:05
1 hour, 5 minutes, 5 seconds
Jim's balls.
1:05:06
1 hour, 5 minutes, 6 seconds
Yeah, Jim's balls. And they shaved uh Jim's balls. and we're going to do some testing and uh then never heard from it again. And when people would ask Jerry
1:05:15
1 hour, 5 minutes, 15 seconds
Nolan, he would say things like, "I'm not your daddy or it's too expensive. It would take like a hundred bazillion
1:05:23
1 hour, 5 minutes, 23 seconds
dollars." [laughter] And other just, you know, avoidances.
1:05:28
1 hour, 5 minutes, 28 seconds
But he interesting he wanted to talk about it until he got mad that people pressed him about, [laughter] you know, about the details of testing it, I guess. Right.
1:05:36
1 hour, 5 minutes, 36 seconds
I'm I'm gonna check that. So, the the premise was there was like a contest for the best evidence and literally just Travis Walton just showed up like it's
1:05:44
1 hour, 5 minutes, 44 seconds
me. Is that what happened? Like, am I making that up?
1:05:47
1 hour, 5 minutes, 47 seconds
Well, there's a $50,000 reward that they had going on and uh some people believe that was actually one of the reasons why
1:05:55
1 hour, 5 minutes, 55 seconds
he did it is he was hoping to get reward money um out of the National Enquirer reward. Yeah. Grand prize. Just me.
1:06:03
1 hour, 6 minutes, 3 seconds
Yeah. the National Enquirer had like a longunning grand prize of $100,000 for anyone who could prove alien life
1:06:12
1 hour, 6 minutes, 12 seconds
essentially. Um and um Travis Walton was one of a number of people that um put in um for you know trying to collect this
1:06:20
1 hour, 6 minutes, 20 seconds
grand prize. the first people that he um contacted in fact was the National Inquirer and they immediately sent a
1:06:27
1 hour, 6 minutes, 27 seconds
team out um to see him and to give him um uh a um a lie detector test which he failed. Um and one of the guys that was
1:06:35
1 hour, 6 minutes, 35 seconds
on the the team um of the National Enquirer ended up writing a little like behind the scenes report on it a year or two later. Um that's really good. And
1:06:45
1 hour, 6 minutes, 45 seconds
that's that was actually the example I was thinking of earlier when I said um I I I used the Brooklyn Bridge thing, but I've heard so many times Travis Walton
1:06:53
1 hour, 6 minutes, 53 seconds
has passed every polygraph test ever given, right? And he he clearly failed one even on live TV on a game show, but
1:07:00
1 hour, 7 minutes
um for what it's worth, a little little really, but um [snorts] and there he is holding the check. Uh crew doesn't seem very traumatized at
1:07:08
1 hour, 7 minutes, 8 seconds
the moment they're holding the the winning checks, I guess. But I I feel like there's so much potential for like a like a YouTube channel to put things side by side.
1:07:19
1 hour, 7 minutes, 19 seconds
Like there's been so many things in the past three months I've heard is like history repeating itself side by side.
1:07:24
1 hour, 7 minutes, 24 seconds
You could literally recast all the folks of today from the past of the 50s and the spheres you it there's just there's
1:07:32
1 hour, 7 minutes, 32 seconds
an idea there I think and I think it would do well because it would just open your eyes to be like ain't nothing new under the sun. this has been here and everyone thinks the beginning of this
1:07:40
1 hour, 7 minutes, 40 seconds
timeline is 2017 and you're just like, "Oh gosh." Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
1:07:45
1 hour, 7 minutes, 45 seconds
Sorry, Steve. I think I cut you off there from your last thought.
1:07:49
1 hour, 7 minutes, 49 seconds
No, no, I was just um I mean, and even with with the prize money that you're seeing that that picture there, uh and then the they ended up giving him like a
1:07:58
1 hour, 7 minutes, 58 seconds
consolation prize of $5,000 that was split amongst like the six crewmen. Um, so it's not like he really got that
1:08:07
1 hour, 8 minutes, 7 seconds
much, but there was certainly um the opportunity and probably the intention to collect. And not only that, but as um has been talked about a lot, you know,
1:08:15
1 hour, 8 minutes, 15 seconds
they were a logging crew that was basically clearing underbrush and they were drastically behind on their contract. There was no way they were going to be able to finish the contract.
1:08:25
1 hour, 8 minutes, 25 seconds
They weren't even halfway completed and it was due to run out in like a matter of a week or two. like this was like, you know, for instance, I think let's
1:08:32
1 hour, 8 minutes, 32 seconds
say like a 60-day contract and you had so many square miles to to clear out and they had basically spent all the 60 days
1:08:39
1 hour, 8 minutes, 39 seconds
and weren't even halfway done. And if that was the case, you would actually be fined if you didn't complete the contract. Um because, you know, he won
1:08:47
1 hour, 8 minutes, 47 seconds
the contract by under bidding other people who were trying to go after that same contract. This is Mike Rogers. Um,
1:08:54
1 hour, 8 minutes, 54 seconds
so there was all kinds of financial um underlying financial strains and opportunities that this story um could
1:09:02
1 hour, 9 minutes, 2 seconds
have lent itself to, you know, and the only thing that could get you out of um that logging contract and having to pay fees if you didn't complete it was what
1:09:11
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was called an act of God clause. And there was, you know, speculation that this hoax would have helped fit that act
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of God clause. Um, and obviously the the National Inquirer Prize was definitely in mind. It was without a doubt exactly where they went to to report everything.
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Um, there was no no doubt that he knew of that prize money beforehand.
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And his mother as well, Travis's mother wasn't even worried that he was missing if I understand correctly. She He told her Yeah.
1:09:42
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He told her he might go missing. Yeah.
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He was really kind of a UFO afficionado, wasn't he? If not a fanatic.
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He he said that he'd always wanted to be um taken by the aliens and that if he went missing, people shouldn't worry about him. Yeah.
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So, yeah.
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[laughter]
1:10:02
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Yeah. The the National Inquir about seven in total. The there was a
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Delos in Delos, Kansas. It's a trace famous trace case. they got $5,000. Uh the coin helicopter incident that help
1:10:17
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me helicopter pilots, those guys got some money. Um the deputy Val Johnson case where his police cruiser got his
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window smashed in and his hood smashed and his antenna bent. [clears throat] He got a he was the last guy to get a check. And the Tyron case, the Tron Jet
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fighter case got a check, too. So there's there's a few cases, but nobody ever collected the large grand prize for definitive proof.
1:10:42
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[snorts]
1:10:43
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still out there. Still out there and available, right?
1:10:47
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Well, guys, I guess uh my animals are starting to uh get tired of my podcasting. So, I guess it's about time for me to me to sign off. Um two weeks
1:10:55
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from now, Brent Reigns is going to join on, I believe, to have a little conversation about some of his UFO research and UFO experience over many
1:11:03
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years and decades. So, uh we'll be doing that and and uh having uh having ongoing conversations. Do you guys have any
1:11:10
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other big stuff you want to hit on before we close out for the night?
1:11:17
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I was thinking maybe in the future we could uh I know there had been some suggestion about trying to dig a little further into that u UFO uh reliability
1:11:25
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and eyewitness testimony book. I know Jeff and Luis had discussed some of the chapters, but um you know maybe that's
1:11:32
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something we could use as as in the future. I don't um I I don't in any way, you know, expect this this a
1:11:40
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primarily skeptical UFO channel or show to become a large popular, you know, audience kind of thing. But good conversation, you know, so that's all I
1:11:48
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can ask for. But I uh I appreciate you guys for coming on with me and um I'll send out a link again in the future.
1:11:54
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Next time we come up, you guys are welcome to join in.
1:11:57
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Thanks for having Yeah. All right. Thanks, guys. Have a good night. See you, too. Have a great weekend, guys. Take care. Bye, guys. Thanks.