All right. Hello everybody. Welcome back to Psych About UFOs. I'm your host Tim Bighgam. [music] Uh, I've been involved in the UFO topic for about 35 years
0:5858 secondssince I uh of my early years near uh near a uh UFO hot spot, that being Gulf Breeze, Florida back uh in the 1980s and
1:071 minute, 7 seconds90s. Uh got involved in the in the UFO field early on and met uh uh who became my good friend Jim Mosley and
1:151 minute, 15 secondscontributed to uh his Saucer Smear magazine. I went on and studied psychology at University of Georgia,
1:221 minute, 22 secondsbecame a college professor for a few years and uh now work in a clinical setting and um still have an interest in
1:291 minute, 29 secondsUFOs mainly from a psychological psychosocial kind of yungian perspective. Uh our tagline here is that
1:361 minute, 36 secondswe uh we have uh critical and curious discussions about UFOs as Yungian modern myth and psychosocial phenomenon. So
1:441 minute, 44 secondsanyway, with that, we've got a a bunch of possible topics we may hit on tonight, but I know we have a a special guest who might join us and tell a
1:521 minute, 52 secondslittle bit of his story. So, we'll see where that goes. But I'll start bringing some folks on here from our panel. And uh let's see. First up,
2:012 minutes, 1 secondI'm going to bring up Mr. Jeff Knox. I can see he's uh Hey, Jeff. Can see you're actually present. How's your uh how's your health
2:092 minutes, 9 secondsdoing, man? You feeling any better today?
2:122 minutes, 12 secondsUh, a little bit. I did I did 15 minutes of stretching before the show, so uh All right. My hopefully my back maintains itself for a little while here.
2:222 minutes, 22 secondsAll right. All right. I was kind of expecting we'd have a another trunch of uh UFO files this week, but nothing yet.
2:302 minutes, 30 secondsSo, uh, let's bring on bring on Louise.
2:332 minutes, 33 secondsHey, Louise. I think I know Luis originally, at least from my experience, was uh maybe from interacting on UFO Sunset. Um, but I know Louise kind of
2:422 minutes, 42 secondsbeen around the same circles as I for a little while now. And uh, we got one other one other friend of ours lined up right now. We got Matt Dwight.
2:502 minutes, 50 secondsHey Matt, how you doing, man?
2:522 minutes, 52 secondsGood. How are you doing? Good. Doing good. Good to see you guys. It's just Jeff and I last time around. So, we got a couple of couple of
2:592 minutes, 59 secondsextra folks now. Um, we may see Rocky and a little bit later. I think he might come on and tell you breaking up a lot.
3:083 minutes, 8 secondsMe?
3:103 minutes, 10 secondsI don't know if anyone's Let's see.
3:133 minutes, 13 secondsI don't know if it's my uh connection, but your your connection seems to be a little bit choppy, Tim. Okay. Anyone's picking up on that?
3:203 minutes, 20 secondsI'm gonna I'm gonna try to cut the music and see if that helps at all. Let's see if this is any better. How am I doing now?
3:283 minutes, 28 secondsYeah, I think a bit better. Thank you.
3:303 minutes, 30 secondsA little better. All right. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Thanks for letting me know.
3:343 minutes, 34 secondsUm, yeah. So, I was saying Rocky may come on a little bit later. I was kind of expecting we'd have another batch of UFO files. Uh but nothing not not that
3:433 minutes, 43 secondsI'm expecting much out of that. But um yeah. Didn't they say there was supposed somebody said there's supposed to be more files this week?
3:503 minutes, 50 secondsThat's what I thought. I thought I thought I had heard that. But did you guys hear that too or am I just I thought maybe I was imagining that. So I definitely been hearing the same thing
3:593 minutes, 59 secondsbut uh nothing. But, you know, people claim that every week, so who knows?
4:034 minutes, 3 secondsLike, you know, but I I thought Berles had said that he, you know, he got this this recording declassified and that it was going to be put out, you know, with the tunch and stuff and then nothing.
4:154 minutes, 15 secondsYeah.
4:184 minutes, 18 secondsUm, speaking of which, well, I'll save it for for later, I guess, but uh I saw Well, I'll mention it now. I saw made me
4:264 minutes, 26 secondsthink of Berles. Somebody posted that they had they had accumulated a dozen phantom mysterious hitchhiking stranger accounts from uh from uh Berles's state.
4:354 minutes, 35 secondsSo made me think we should get Berles on the case of the the phantom you know hitchhiking mysterious disappearing
4:414 minutes, 41 secondsstranger. Um sorry about anyway the other thing I I don't know if you guys want to go ahead Jeff or was that Jeff? Go ahead.
4:504 minutes, 50 secondsI was just going to say can Berles mysteriously disappear? I would Yeah. the show me state, right? Um,
4:594 minutes, 59 secondswell, I have a couple of things I'll I'll ask you guys if you want to get into uh just because I kind of got pulled into watching a few minutes of it, but uh the Jesse Michaels thing or
5:075 minutes, 7 secondsnot, or if you guys had other stuff you wanted to hit on first, but yeah, I watched that. That's one of the
5:145 minutes, 14 secondsfew Jesse Michaels episodes I've actually watched.
5:175 minutes, 17 secondsYeah, I see actually the only one that I I didn't even see all of it, but I saw the first I guess the first third or so.
5:245 minutes, 24 secondsUh, the Mario Woods one is the one I'm talking about for Did you guys Matt, Luis, did you guys see that one?
5:305 minutes, 30 secondsI I did not see it. I I heard so much so much about it from uh from Jeff and others that I thought, you know what? I I get the summary from them. I'm I think I'm good on this one.
5:405 minutes, 40 secondsYeah. Yeah. I I just I I actually only watched it because Grider pulled me into his his viewing of of it, the
5:475 minutes, 47 secondsdiscussion, but I bailed out after before they got to the to the regression. But yeah, uh, wow. Um,
5:555 minutes, 55 secondswhat what happened to it? Could you sum could you summarize it? Like what was what was it all about?
5:595 minutes, 59 secondsThat part of part of the issue I have is that I'm not even clear as as often as the case with many of these UFO.
6:066 minutes, 6 secondsUh, oh,
6:106 minutes, 10 seconds[laughter]
6:116 minutes, 11 secondsthere we go. I just bounced out for some reason. Yeah, we lost him for a second.
6:146 minutes, 14 secondsYeah. Um, I'm not I'm not clear on all of the convoluted background, but I guess Mario Woods has been telling this story for at least half a dozen years
6:236 minutes, 23 secondsthat in what, the 70s, he had some weird experience on a military base in which they cited a large UFO over an
6:306 minutes, 30 secondsinstallation and then he and his partner uh basically had an abduction missing missing time scenario. But the the story
6:376 minutes, 37 secondsalso involves Richard Dodie and him being involved in the report. Uh maybe Jeff can summarize a little bit more of the background part of it, but long
6:466 minutes, 46 secondsstory short, I guess supposedly the uh there was one missing witness of the of the two, right? Allegedly, um that
6:536 minutes, 53 secondshadn't communicated since this event happened supposedly, you know, 20, 30 years ago or gosh, 50 years ago now,
7:017 minutes, 1 secondwhatever it was now. Um got back together immediately. Somehow had a fundraiser for $100,000. I'm not quite
7:087 minutes, 8 secondssure how that seeing a UFO equates to getting a fundraiser. Anyway, and then they had a hypnotic regression done by Ivonne Smith, who was a well-known UFO
7:177 minutes, 17 secondsenthusiast and hypnotized, you know, Whitley Streamer, I think, and a lot of these kind of people. And and the guy that the witness quote unquote traveled,
7:257 minutes, 25 secondsyou know, to to go to this thing after taking this like clearly you don't show up at this hypnotic regression not knowing what the story is. I mean, they
7:347 minutes, 34 secondsbasically told him the story before the regression. So, oh, uh, that's a really really And I don't know, Jeeoff, there there's, you know,
7:427 minutes, 42 secondswhat's that? The Yeah, there there she is. Yeah, the Coronado abduction.
7:487 minutes, 48 secondsI'm probably missing a a ton of details, but Yeah.
7:537 minutes, 53 secondsYeah. But so yeah, basically, yeah, Mario Woods uh claimed to have a UFO sighting that was remarkably similar to
8:008 minutesa a fake hoax sighting that Dodie put out out of Ellsworth Air Force Base um back in, you know, the late '7s. And
8:088 minutes, 8 secondsMario Woods basically came along not all that long ago, maybe five, six years ago, claiming this story that's remarkably similar to this Dodie story.
8:178 minutes, 17 secondsand he supposedly had another guy with him, this Michael Johnson that he hasn't hadn't talked to for 40 something years
8:238 minutes, 23 secondsor whatever. And he supposedly spent 10 grand trying to track him, paying a private investigator to track him down.
8:308 minutes, 30 secondsSupposedly the FBI was looking for him and couldn't find him. But Jesse Michaels has a guy on Facebook that just did a little search and found this guy.
8:398 minutes, 39 secondsUm, and so they they got him on the show and it it's really interesting because the show starts off with this phone call of Jesse Michaels supposedly cold
8:478 minutes, 47 secondscalling Michael Johnson like, "Hi, I'm Jesse Michaels, blah blah blah." It's like, "Do you know a guy named Mario Woods?" And he has no idea who Mario
8:548 minutes, 54 secondsWoods is. He doesn't He does. He certainly does not immediately say the first thing, you know, which I would think is, "Oh, you mean the guy I saw last when he was kidnapped by a freaking UFO?" He does
9:039 minutes, 3 secondsnot say that. He goes, "Oh, wasn't his name Tony or you know, or And and a lot a lot of people play up
9:119 minutes, 11 secondsthe fact that on the phone call Michael Johnson is like, "Is this about a UFO?" Like, "How could you know that if you
9:189 minutes, 18 secondsdidn't remember?" Like, well, I have no doubt whoever found him on Facebook was like, "Hey, are you the Michael Johnson that might have had a UFO sighting back
9:269 minutes, 26 secondsat Ellsworth Air Force Base back in the 70s?" Like, and so I have no doubt he knew what Michaels was calling about before he ever got the call from
9:349 minutes, 34 secondsMichaels. And just the most crazy thing about it is though he goes from that phone call where he knows nothing. No details, nothing to once he meets up
9:429 minutes, 42 secondswith Michaels, the guy's got intricate details about every little thing that happened back then, the people he met and talked to, what they look like, all
9:509 minutes, 50 secondsthis stuff that happened. Like there's just no way.
9:549 minutes, 54 secondsAnd so like when when he when when when he first get when he did they show him first meeting Mario like seeing him again? Do they have like
10:0310 minutes, 3 secondsthe, you know, the the the first meetup moment?
10:0810 minutes, 8 secondsYeah. It's, and this is what like Michaelels is really good at, Jesse Michaels is really good at is like making this big emotional like thing out
10:1610 minutes, 16 secondsof the whole situation. He's got the sad music going on and the happy music.
10:2010 minutes, 20 secondsIt's it's a it's a very emotional, you know, really plays in the heartstrings.
10:2510 minutes, 25 secondsYeah. Um, I noticed that one other one other kind of specific thing I noticed as they were kind of briefing him before the regression by the way about the
10:3310 minutes, 33 secondsstory. Um, uh, what was it? Michael said u, what was it? Jesse said one of them said
10:4110 minutes, 41 secondssomething to the effect of they they injected him with something and then the the Jesse Michael said sodium pentathol.
10:4610 minutes, 46 secondsAnd then the witness, you know, immediately said, "Oh, yeah, that." And he actually went, "Oh, yeah, that." They said that. And it's like, why didn't he say this before he said it, right? Even
10:5410 minutes, 54 secondsif he forgot the name, you'd think he'd have said that it happened before. But anyway, it was, "Oh, sodium pentathol is true serum." And he, "Oh, yeah, they said that." Like, okay. Well, I don't
11:0311 minutes, 3 secondsknow. But of course, of course.
11:0811 minutes, 8 secondsYou know, didn't Eric Davis mention sodium pentathol?
11:1211 minutes, 12 secondsIn some interview he said that he wanted to do a Jesus, in other words, crucify and torture um some CIA guy called
11:2111 minutes, 21 secondsGaffne, I think, um to get the truth out of him. He said he wanted to use um pent sodium pentathol on him.
11:2811 minutes, 28 secondsGlenn Gaffne, I think he was the former director of uh technology at the CIA.
11:3311 minutes, 33 secondsAnd so they all they all love to point their fingers at him as if he's got all the gatekeeper. Yeah, he's one of the gatekeepers.
11:4211 minutes, 42 secondsUh George Knap mentioned him as well and when he went to the U the UAP hearing I think last year you That's right. That's right. That's right. He did.
11:5311 minutes, 53 secondsAnd uh usually this wouldn't be something that I still have a little hesitation about getting into, but I think also when you put yourself out there and make these kind of claims as
12:0012 minuteswell as you know receive $100,000 it's kind of fair game. But as Alex uh is it Alex gosh I on Twitter had pointed out
12:0812 minutes, 8 secondsuh if it's the same guy Mario had what declared bankruptcy a few years ago and then got sued by like J C Penney for $10,000 for
12:1612 minutes, 16 secondsYes. Yeah. Alex Dolan Aolan 312. That's right. Posted about uh some some bankruptcy issues or or was something
12:2412 minutes, 24 secondselse. I think it was like a some kind of claim with a court or or something like that. Yeah. He he he also said that
12:3112 minutes, 31 secondsMario Woods got like a $300,000 workman's comp claim like about 15 years ago or something and then just a few
12:3812 minutes, 38 secondsyears ago he got another half million dollar uh claim out of a former employer.
12:4312 minutes, 43 secondsAnd so like if that's if that's true, it can't cost that much living in the Podunks where they live. Like where are
12:5112 minutes, 51 secondsthey spending all that money on that they now need this retirement fund on GoFundMe that Jesse Michaels set up, right?
12:5912 minutes, 59 secondsI'm just I'm looking at this video right now. I'm looking at the video you've got up. Oh my good, this looks like such an emotional
13:0613 minutes, 6 secondsYeah. Yeah. And and of course, you know, that that that makes it hard to uh makes it hard to receive to to to put
13:1413 minutes, 14 secondscriticism out there about these kind of things because people are going to say, "Oh, these veterans are, you know, how can they're obviously so, you know,
13:2113 minutes, 21 secondsemotional over the well, you know, that certainly appears like some positive genuine emotion, but it's also, you
13:2813 minutes, 28 secondsknow, a reunion. That doesn't mean the UFO event is is accurate or happened, but Right. And that and that's what comes up in the comments that you see people's
13:3713 minutes, 37 secondslike even I've read comments of people like I sort of doubted this but when I saw how emotional he was like I know something at least really happened to
13:4413 minutes, 44 secondshim and you see that a lot with hypnosis sessions people like look how traumatized they are in the hypnosis session that obviously means it's true
13:5113 minutes, 51 secondsit's like it doesn't work that way like you can't like emotion does not create to truth and accuracy I mean can is what actually can create
14:0114 minutes, 1 secondthe inaccurate right it's like the emotion is how you misremember stuff.
14:0414 minutes, 4 secondsYeah. And and I think that's the biggest mistake in the world that unless they I don't know whether it was, you know, they just didn't care or they didn't know better. But to to to frontload it,
14:1314 minutes, 13 secondsas I think was it Matt? Somebody put it right. You're putting all this uh you're putting all the information before the hypnotic regression, you're you're almost you're almost assuredly going to
14:2114 minutes, 21 secondsfind exactly what you just told the guy happened. He's not going to come out there fly out there or whatever and go, "Oh, by the way, right, no, none of this
14:2914 minutes, 29 seconds[ __ ] happened in the first place." Um, these two gentlemen, Army veterans, but what service were they?
14:3714 minutes, 37 secondsThe branch, Air Force.
14:3914 minutes, 39 secondsYeah. Yeah. Have they served together like in a theater or maybe Vietnam or something?
14:4614 minutes, 46 secondsNo, they they just served at Ellsworth like doing military police for nuclear silo.
14:5214 minutes, 52 secondsThere you go. I'm just wondering because like that sort of emotion is, you know, I would imagine pretty typical among veterans who have actually gone into war
14:5914 minutes, 59 secondstogether and had experiences. So I was wondering if that's the basis for that, but it somehow got sublimated into a UFO experience.
15:0815 minutes, 8 secondsYeah, I mean that that certainly wouldn't be something that I necessarily be surprised at. I think in this case it it could just as much be the
15:1515 minutes, 15 secondsemotionality of of the reunion plus the uh maybe a little bit of we're in for kind of an adventure here. And even if you know even if someone is stretching
15:2415 minutes, 24 secondsthe truth about UFOs let's say I think there's from the you know some people this is not their life right they don't take it seriously to the degree that
15:3215 minutes, 32 secondsit's kind of all in good fun maybe right that I don't think it necessarily means they're bad people if if someone is
15:4015 minutes, 40 secondshoaxing or or you know making up a UFO story they it might be you know not perceived the same the same way right
15:4815 minutes, 48 secondsthey're those kind of I I don't know I I don't want to come right out and and say I completely discount everything they're saying about I mean they could have also
15:5615 minutes, 56 secondshad an unusual thing happen and then right so this is what I think is going on. I don't think, okay, for Mario Woods, I
16:0416 minutes, 4 secondsdon't think he's outright hoaxing. Like, I think he's somewhat sincere, but I think what probably happened is later on in life, he started he like he learned
16:1316 minutes, 13 secondsabout UFOs. He was reading like UFOs and nukes and studying all about the stuff.
16:1716 minutes, 17 secondsAnd he may have remembered a UFO sighting in Ellsworth. He may even be remembering the hoax that Dodie pulled there and that got confabulated in his
16:2416 minutes, 24 secondsmind as being his own kind of like event that really happened to him. Whatever Mario Wood's case is, I think he's at least somewhat sincere and believes
16:3216 minutes, 32 secondssomething happened to him. I do not believe that for Michael Johnson. I believe 100% he's laring. He was playing along, telling them what they wanted to
16:3916 minutes, 39 secondshear. And I think that's so obvious if you watch the Jesse Michaels episode is that this guy didn't know anything beforehand. And one of the things you have to understand is the video is
16:4816 minutes, 48 secondsedited, right? It's not like a live timeline. This guy spent a few days out there and Jesse Michaels eds it together in a nice cohesive pattern. So, you
16:5616 minutes, 56 secondsdon't really know how much, like you say, frontloading happened beforehand.
17:0017 minutesThe guy had a couple days probably before he was hypnotically regressed to learn all about the story hanging out with Mario Woods. And we don't see any
17:0817 minutes, 8 secondsof that because we just get an edited video that kind of compresses the timeline of events.
17:1217 minutes, 12 secondsIt makes it seem it makes it seem like the whole thing happened like over a few hours that he flew in, met the guy, and then left. No, it was days. Yeah.
17:2017 minutes, 20 secondsYeah. There's certainly many opportunities for him to absor have have absorbed elements of the story even if it wasn't directly outright, you know,
17:2917 minutes, 29 secondslaid out to him. I think and I think it's a good example of, you know, how a psychosocial explanation of UFO stuff
17:3617 minutes, 36 secondscan go, right? whether they saw something classified that was tested or they had some or they hoaxed it or it
17:4317 minutes, 43 secondswas a misperception of whatever and then the story gets retold and there's hypnotic regression involved and they recall it 30 years later and you know
17:5117 minutes, 51 secondsall of that is involved. I think you have to I think the exact same thing happened with Robert Solless. Like I think he mis
17:5917 minutes, 59 secondsmisremembered the real echoflight incident where some UFOs where some missiles did get shut down that had nothing to do with UFOs.
18:0618 minutes, 6 secondsYears later he actually didn't come out with this story until he was hypnotically regressed. Most people don't know that.
18:1218 minutes, 12 secondsUm years later he was hypnotically aggressed and comes out with this UFO story. But at the time is that is that the whole story or just the abduction part? Because did he did he remember the original?
18:2518 minutes, 25 secondsNo, he didn't really remember much at all about it. In fact, he couldn't even tell you when it was. He changed the dates of when the sighting happened
18:3218 minutes, 32 secondsthree or four separate times because he kept finding out, oh, I wasn't actually on base or on duty at that time. Okay, well, maybe it was this next one. And he
18:4018 minutes, 40 secondseventually settles on the day he did because that's the only day they could find a UFO sighting 50 miles away in Belt, Montana. So they a UFO sighting on
18:4918 minutes, 49 secondsthis date. So that must have been when it was. And so that's when he settles on. But he didn't actually know any of these details until decades after the fact.
18:5718 minutes, 57 secondsI didn't I didn't know that. That's interesting. It's It always strikes me whenever I hear him do interviews where there's just like the most mild level of
19:0519 minutes, 5 secondslike questioning push back and just how defensive he gets so quickly. Even if it's like a politely stated, "But what
19:1319 minutes, 13 secondsdo you mean?" like why why didn't you say it was this if you were there and just like his immediate push back to me I'm just like oh this he really wants it
19:2219 minutes, 22 secondsto be a UFO experience like that that he's got his mind made up that that's what it is
19:2919 minutes, 29 secondsyeah don't ask him about the probe or any of that stuff he gets uh people never ask him the good questions in the interviews [laughter] that he does
19:3719 minutes, 37 secondsall of these stories gets the all of these UFO stories are so convoluted and I mean understandably ably some of them
19:4419 minutes, 44 secondsit's been decades but you know just like with Rendlessham right how many witnesses were weren't there or or who
19:5119 minutes, 51 secondswas with who or the ins and outs of all this stuff often times you know when you really look at it are not what they're
19:5919 minutes, 59 secondspurported to be on the surface I think right and then they go on a show like Jesse Michaels and it gets packaged up and uh and delivered to you know
20:0820 minutes, 8 secondsbelievers and and lore lovers in in a way that they can digest it really Well, yeah. Yeah.
20:1720 minutes, 17 secondsI wonder if um I wonder if the purported um disinformation program called Yankee Blue might have some tiein to this whole
20:2620 minutes, 26 secondsthing. Um because that was revealed relatively recently. I
20:3320 minutes, 33 secondsthink last year or the year before is about like a US Air Force disinfo program where they would tell the US
20:4020 minutes, 40 secondslike the new recruits about some reverse engineering project program which was completely fake. But it could have been
20:4820 minutes, 48 secondsjust like a hazing or it could
20:5520 minutes, 55 secondsprogram or something like that. But, you know, I wonder if um that that probably involved like some element of
21:0321 minutes, 3 secondsAir Force intelligence, but I wonder, you know, if Dodie was indeed involved, what his role might have been in that,
21:1021 minutes, 10 secondsbut we don't really know much at all about Yankee Blue, so I don't want to really go there too much.
21:1521 minutes, 15 secondsYeah, I'm I'm skeptical of the whole Yankee Blue thing, at least as far as the extent that it existed. Like I can
21:2321 minutes, 23 secondssee some maybe like joking hazing going on in a limited extent. I don't think it was a program that lasted for decades that they did this on a regular basis
21:3121 minutes, 31 secondstoo. The problem is we haven't really seen any evidence for the program at all. I know Stephen Green Street has seen a couple of documents and like one
21:3821 minutes, 38 secondsof the documents supposedly was that carrot that CGI carrot hoax. Um that's one of the documents he said he saw. Um
21:4521 minutes, 45 secondsbut we haven't seen the evidence of this program so I'm kind of skeptical personally.
21:5021 minutes, 50 secondsRight. When when I heard it, I was like, "Oh, that that would make a lot of sense." But the documentation on it, it's just so limited. There's it's hard to take it far.
22:0122 minutes, 1 secondYeah. I mean, on the on the one hand, I it would certainly be nice to see some kind of documentation for it. On the other hand, if it's an unofficial hazing
22:0922 minutes, 9 secondsthing, understandably, right, there wouldn't be as much uh it was c I don't even know what years supposedly that that went on, but um
22:1922 minutes, 19 secondswell, something like it would be expected, right?
22:2222 minutes, 22 secondsAnd and as far as the Mario Woods case, that that's a theory that some people have kind of brought up is that Mario Woods and Johnson were essentially
22:3122 minutes, 31 secondsBenowitz because they do in fact claim in that Michael's documentary that they did talk to Dodie like Dodie was involved with their incident. Um like
22:4022 minutes, 40 secondsthey claim to ID him like Jesse Michael like hey is this the guy that you saw and it's a picture of Dodie from 2005 when he was on Artbell I think or
22:4822 minutes, 48 secondssomething like that. And they're like, "Is this the guy?" And the guy and Mario Mario Johnson's like, "Um, maybe."
22:5522 minutes, 55 seconds[laughter] I didn't have glasses on, but yeah, maybe. You answer first. Yeah.
23:0023 minutesAnd so it's it's uh so people have suggested and they they also bring up sodium pentathol like you mentioned again as a true serum that, you know,
23:0823 minutes, 8 secondsthey were really just uh uh they saw something that was like a real classified program and then they were benits. They were drugged and manipulated and given this [ __ ] And
23:1723 minutes, 17 secondsI just I think I don't go that far. You know, to me, this is another case where people are coming up with an even crazier conspiracy theory to, you know,
23:2523 minutes, 25 secondsuh explain away like the what happened to him. I don't think you have to do any of that. I don't think there's any evidence they were drugged. The
23:3223 minutes, 32 secondsgovernment doesn't use sodium penol as a true serum. That's literally pop culture, movie, TV [ __ ] Um that's not real.
23:4023 minutes, 40 secondsUm it's kind of funny. I was just watching the Quantum Leap episode about the UFO. And in that episode, they the Blue Book guys take a guy to the
23:4823 minutes, 48 secondshospital and inject him with sodium penithol to get, you know, the the UFO information out of him. Um, and but that's, you know, that's not a thing.
23:5523 minutes, 55 secondsLike they looked at sodium penithol in the MK Ultra era and realized it doesn't work. It's like a barbituate. Like it there's really no such thing as a truth
24:0424 minutes, 4 secondsserum. You can lower someone's inhibitions. You can get them really high and so they're out of it, but that's not going to make them tell the
24:1124 minutes, 11 secondstruth or or make what they say accurate at all. Yeah. Yeah.
24:1624 minutes, 16 secondsSo, um gosh, if the thing wasn't three hours long, I would pull up the clip now where he he mentioned so Jesse mentioned sodium pentathol and then and then
24:2424 minutes, 24 secondsMichael goes, "Oh yeah, they said that." Like he didn't mention it until Jesse kind of put it out there, I think. But um
24:3324 minutes, 33 secondsthat's yeah, that's the thing. Like Johnson was just feeding back on what other people were telling him. And I think that's really obvious when you watch it. Like
24:4124 minutes, 41 secondsI'm still just more mystified by even if even if the thing was true, why does why does seeing a UFO mean send me money, right? I mean, what is the donation?
24:5124 minutes, 51 secondsIt's not because they got burned by a UFO and need medical care or it's just I saw a UFO. Give me some money.
24:5724 minutes, 57 secondsYeah, that was was like, wait, why why is this all of a sudden an $100,000 fundraiser? I don't get I don't get it.
25:0625 minutes, 6 secondsThey got more money than Borland raised for his organ his whistleblower organization. And these guys by by no
25:1325 minutes, 13 secondsaccounts are whistleblowers, right? Like it's just money for having a UFO incident. And it's insane. Like I pointed out that on a comment that
25:2125 minutes, 21 secondsthey could fund something like David Marlor's National UFO Historic Record Center. They could pay like couple people to sit there and digitize for
25:2925 minutes, 29 secondslike a year and put all that stuff online for everyone for the amount of money they just raised for these guys.
25:3425 minutes, 34 secondsBut instead, we're throwing it at two dudes, one guy that didn't even know about a UFO sighting until last month, uh, for having a UFO sighting 40 years ago.
25:4425 minutes, 44 secondsYeah. Yeah.
25:4725 minutes, 47 secondsH we we frustration about the the rate of disclosure from the Trump administration.
25:5625 minutes, 56 secondsI did see the uh the rumor that uh Trump's going to uh to release to do disclosure. It's like that's been the
26:0326 minutes, 3 secondsrumor for 80 years, right? That Yeah.
26:0626 minutes, 6 secondsUh something more specific though, you think, Luis, that you mean or No, I just mean that um you know, we get
26:1326 minutes, 13 secondsthis other this new latest um official promise of disclosure and then like it's it's shown not to be what everyone
26:2226 minutes, 22 secondswanted. And so people kind of the frustration gets channeled into people who do claim to have the answers. like
26:2826 minutes, 28 secondsum again Eric Davis on NewsNation was saying if if I could be released from my NDA then I could just basically spill the beans
26:3726 minutes, 37 secondseven though he's not even in the IC anymore or any of the military stuff anymore and um and yeah maybe with this latest thing as
26:4526 minutes, 45 secondswell people just sort of want they latch on to like somebody claiming that oh I've got the answers I had this UFO
26:5226 minutes, 52 secondsexperience at a military site and so people just kind of Yeah, I think Maybe it's that that reflex to, you know.
27:0127 minutes, 1 secondYeah, people love a credentialed military eyewitness. They they believe that makes the sighting better for some reason.
27:0827 minutes, 8 secondsIt's what it's what got me originally hooked in around uh 2022, 2021. I was like, "Oh, these guys these guys are real. These guys have IC credentials.
27:1827 minutes, 18 secondsThey must be legit." you know, and which was foolish, but it it for your average person who's not super into the topic or familiar with it, it works, you know, it
27:2627 minutes, 26 secondsworks to hook your average person. It really does.
27:2927 minutes, 29 secondsBut when you when you think about it, every single explained UFO sighting in like Blue Book or Arrow or whatever has
27:3627 minutes, 36 secondsbasically all been qualified military trained witnesses. And so all the explained sightings were also trained witnesses that got it wrong. So maybe
27:4527 minutes, 45 secondsthere's not something so special about being a trained observer, right?
27:4927 minutes, 49 secondsDid uh did I see right that um I think I saw that Leslie Keane had posted a interview with a medium talking to someone who was dead.
28:0028 minutesI think I saw someone repost that written a book about that I think in the past and and recent I didn't see that. I didn't see the recent one though. It may
28:0828 minutes, 8 secondshave been an older clip, but yeah, it it's just it I guess it come down to it comes down to for me the question first of all as I I'll kind of
28:1628 minutes, 16 secondsrepeat my my tweet here that I think some of the old school eu eupfologists if there are any left they would kind of take that whole thing as a little don't
28:2428 minutes, 24 secondsdon't mix those two things it makes us look bad and second to that my question is is there an underlying something about the same person who believes that
28:3328 minutes, 33 secondsyou can talk to a medium and talk to your dead relatives as it is a person who believes believes in UFOs wholeheartedly like is there an underlying thing about the person who
28:4228 minutes, 42 secondswas you know experiencing these things not the nature of life after death itself or UFOs itself or anything else but
28:5028 minutes, 50 secondsI don't know it just be interesting if if more people believe in mediums that are UFO fans right predisposition to accepting like heterodox narratives
28:5828 minutes, 58 secondssomething like that yeah I I think once you start yeah once you start feeding in once you start buying into something that isn't broadly
29:0729 minutes, 7 secondsaccepted. I think you start to open your mind to, okay, well, if I did, if I if I thought this was crazy before, but now I'm I'm starting to buy into this, maybe
29:1629 minutes, 16 secondsI should also look into this and and consider it. And I think you're right. I think it does lead to an openness. you know this um I should also mention that
29:2429 minutes, 24 secondsthe UFO genre has become increasingly kind of spiritualized or paranormalized over the past
29:3229 minutes, 32 secondsI don't know how many years but this is a trend that um even in the late 1970s Alan Henry was already noting the what
29:3929 minutes, 39 secondshe called the valetization of eupfology where you have like the official like initially you've got like the nuts and
29:4729 minutes, 47 secondsbolts enthusiasts but then they become sort of frustrated with the lack of evidence And so they start to search for like
29:5429 minutes, 54 secondsdifferent kind of alternative type answers. And then the UFO field becomes open to all kinds of esoteric spiritualist interpretations.
30:0330 minutes, 3 secondsCan I can I pause you right there and mention just as an example I think of that is Valet's notion of uh UFOs don't crash, they're gifted, right? Because we
30:1130 minutes, 11 secondshave to somehow account for these stories of crashes, but it makes no sense. So they gave them to us or something, right? Sorry, Luis. I I cut you off, but
30:2030 minutes, 20 secondsgo ahead.
30:2130 minutes, 21 secondsYeah. And and that that aspect as well is sort of religious and maybe like uh with the different religious artifacts
30:2930 minutes, 29 secondswhich like the holy grail or you know the lance that they used to kill Jesus repeatedly. Um these things that people
30:3730 minutes, 37 secondssort of are always searching for it. it sort of becomes it's there this something implicitly similar in
30:4430 minutes, 44 secondseupfology where we want alien artifacts or whatever it is right these and pilgrimage sites as well like Roswell um
30:5330 minutes, 53 secondsArea 51 so I I think there's a whole religious subcomponent there as well yeah yeah
31:0131 minutes, 1 secondI know Richard I know Richard Dolan in recent years has been like moved to the woo and I and I think it's because there was such a lack of nuts and bolts and
31:0931 minutes, 9 secondsand physical evidence and data that like I think he was like, "Oh, to to stay to stay like hip and relevant with this,
31:1731 minutes, 17 secondsI'm just I guess I profitable." Yeah. Profitable. I guess I have to like accept the woo factor here. And he says it in his podcast. I think I listened to
31:2431 minutes, 24 secondsone of his interviews like a year or two ago. And he was like, I've I've, you know, recently started to accept the woo more and uh you know, I'm okay with it.
31:3331 minutes, 33 secondsAnd he like openly talks about it. And I was like, this is so odd. This is just so bizarre.
31:3831 minutes, 38 secondsYeah. I mean, again, if if you don't talk about that stuff, right, you have less stuff in general to talk about in regards to UFOs. And then what do you do, right? You just don't do a show, I guess.
31:4731 minutes, 47 secondsYeah. Exactly.
31:4831 minutes, 48 secondsI see our friend Rocky is backstage here. If you guys are good, I'm going to bring Rocky up and uh get a little bit of his story.
31:5531 minutes, 55 secondsAwesome. [snorts] Hey, Rocky.
31:5931 minutes, 59 secondsHow you doing, man? Good to good to good to meet you virtually, I guess, right?
32:0332 minutes, 3 secondsGood. Yeah. Right on. I So, I'm totally out of the loop. I've been at work all day and and just got home and Right on. Right on.
32:1032 minutes, 10 secondsStarted looking at our messages and felt felt bad that I had missed something here. So, no, no worries, man. We just wanted to try to have you come on for for a bit if
32:1732 minutes, 17 secondsyou if you could. And uh I don't know a lot of your story actually somewhat intentionally because I wanted to find out, you know, more of it as we talked
32:2532 minutes, 25 secondshere. I just know you were a Canadian military. Is that right?
32:2832 minutes, 28 secondsThat's right. And I know you did you had some long story eventually your story I know inter led to some interaction with with Lou Alzando but could you could you
32:3632 minutes, 36 secondskind of walk us through maybe from from the you know wherever you think is a good place to start.
32:4132 minutes, 41 secondsSure. I mean it's nothing I mean look my story is not anything um all that exciting but um no I mean I um I did a I guess it was
32:5132 minutes, 51 secondsback in 2021. and I did an interview with a friend of mine named Byron Delir and he's American.
32:5732 minutes, 57 secondsUm and uh Byron lives in Missouri and he has a podcast and um don't ask me the name of it right now but I'm sorry Byron
33:0533 minutes, 5 secondsI can't remember but um anyway um Byron and I decided that we would like to interview Lou Alzando and if you
33:1233 minutes, 12 secondsremember back in 2020 2021 that stuff was still pretty hyped up, right?
33:1733 minutes, 17 secondsYeah. Yeah. And um I'm I'm I'm concerned that I have cheeses on my teeth right now. I didn't get this [laughter] fat I I didn't get this fat eatating carrots.
33:2533 minutes, 25 secondsSo I had a little snack when I got home. Um but uh no worries.
33:2933 minutes, 29 secondsSo So we interviewed Lou and I got to know Lou after the fact. After that interview, we started interacting and um
33:3633 minutes, 36 secondsso there were uh a number of [snorts] um things said that were just kind of odd.
33:4233 minutes, 42 secondsSo basically it's like this. Um at some point I started um speaking to Lou about initially [clears throat] we just talked
33:5033 minutes, 50 secondsabout you know jeeps and guns and you know army stuff right told army stories and became friends that way and I don't want to oversell that either like we
33:5833 minutes, 58 secondswere best buddies or something um it wasn't like that but um there was some mutual respect there
34:0434 minutes, 4 secondsand um I was uh I don't know like I think I was down the rabbit hole pretty deep so I was I was pretty convinced
34:1134 minutes, 11 secondsthat these guys probably knew about some, you know, crash retrieval or something, right? All right. Yeah.
34:1734 minutes, 17 secondsUm and uh at at some point I I did ask him um you know, somehow to get involved
34:2534 minutes, 25 secondsor he asked me to get involved and basically what happened was that um I started started getting pumped up like like he was I felt he was pumping me up.
34:3634 minutes, 36 secondsHe was he was telling me that, you know, if I went on camera and held up documents and talked about these things,
34:4334 minutes, 43 secondsit would give credibility to the subject and that I would be known as a big hero and that kind of thing. And that um he
34:5034 minutes, 50 secondswas, you know, working with NORAD or something on two programs and that I could be brought in on these programs
34:5734 minutes, 57 secondsand that my security clearance would be updated or something like that. And so, um, look, I I don't claim to have been like military intelligence myself or
35:0635 minutes, 6 secondsanything like that. I had a pretty basic career in the military, but I I was a senior enough NCO that I understood how I understand how how those systems work
35:1435 minutes, 14 secondsand how you get your security clearances upgraded or restored. And it's not because some dude wants you to work on UFOs. It's just that's Hollywood movies, right?
35:2335 minutes, 23 secondsAnd um, but I was told that that's what was going to take place. And so I I phoned um a friend of mine at uh NORAD
35:3235 minutes, 32 secondsheadquarters and actually spoke to a couple of guys there and and told him the story that I was going to be brought down to Colorado
35:4135 minutes, 41 secondsSprings and potentially or at least I was being told this and what did he know about it and and um he said he had never heard of these people but would look
35:4835 minutes, 48 secondsinto it. And when they called me back they basically said um we have no idea who they are. [laughter] They don't we don't work with them. and um you know
35:5735 minutes, 57 secondsand so I also called friends at national defense headquarters in Canada and at CESUS and asked about you know these kinds of things and was was told the
36:0636 minutes, 6 secondssame thing that it was um that it was just not a thing and that when it comes to you know say upgrading my security clearances or something through that kind of a process you know
36:1436 minutes, 14 secondssome American making a phone call like you know we need this guy right horseshit right like it is not going to happen I I am not the kind of person
36:2336 minutes, 23 secondsthat would be um brought in to such a a program, you know, I have no expertise, but but I felt because of that, because of the I I
36:3236 minutes, 32 secondsknow what I am. I always say I'm the average slob. Um I could be dressed up um put my uniform on and and be made to
36:4136 minutes, 41 secondslook like um uh somebody of credibility, right? That I could be used to tell a story, to be a whistleblower, right?
36:5036 minutes, 50 secondsYeah. And um what was interesting was that these particular documents that we were talking about were um I had sent
36:5836 minutes, 58 secondsLou some files that a friend of mine had received through the um access to information um request program that we
37:0637 minutes, 6 secondshave in Canada. It's the same as your F u your FOYA program and um there's Steve. So um anyhow um
37:1537 minutes, 15 secondsthese documents were I didn't know what they meant but I wish I had it on me right now. show you, but the document number is something that's called CL213.
37:2437 minutes, 24 secondsAnd when I was talking to a friend of mine that was doing these these access to information requests, he asked me, "Hey, what does that mean?" And I said,
37:3237 minutes, 32 seconds"I I don't have a clue, but I'll I'lluh ask around." And so I said, "Hey, do you mind if I ask Lou Alzando?" He said, "No." So I sent it to Lou. Lou said,
37:4037 minutes, 40 seconds"Hey, this seems very important. I don't know what it is either, and um but I'll look into it." And um meanwhile I found
37:4737 minutes, 47 secondsout what CL213 was. This is the most basic like non-classified well it's not that it's nonclassified.
37:5537 minutes, 55 secondsIt depends on on what's on it of course but it's a it's a basic recording document and and procedure to follow
38:0338 minutes, 3 secondswhen somebody in the armed forces is reporting a a a legitimate UFO.
38:0838 minutes, 8 secondsLegitimate in the sense of an unidentified flying thing, right? and that anybody anybody in NORAD or the
38:1638 minutes, 16 secondsUnited States Armed Forces or the Canadian Armed Forces running a top secret UFO program would
38:2338 minutes, 23 secondsabsolutely know what this document is because it's the most basic fundamental document that exists having to do with
38:3238 minutes, 32 secondsthat subject. So there's no bloody way that you could have run a top secret UFO, you know, study program and not
38:3938 minutes, 39 secondsknowing this. um there's there's just no chance of that. So, it it it seemed odd to me that he didn't know what it was.
38:4638 minutes, 46 secondsAnd um then when I was asked to, you know, potentially go on camera and hold these documents up and talk about it, it seemed odd to me because if the
38:5438 minutes, 54 secondsdocuments are in fact nothing, [snorts] but the things that they say on them appear to be, you know, um you
39:0339 minutes, 3 secondsknow, mysterious because of course the greater public doesn't have a clue what they actually mean. It could be
39:1139 minutes, 11 secondsit's like putting lipstick on a pig. It could be made to look like something very important.
39:1539 minutes, 15 secondsAnd so I felt that I was basically a potential useful idiot.
39:2039 minutes, 20 secondsAnd um and so, you know, I just walked away from it. I'm probably leaving out a whole pile of stuff, but um
39:2739 minutes, 27 secondsno, you're the second person even on that's come on out, but I just, you know, I'm just jumping into this. So, sorry. You're the second person that's come on this show
39:3439 minutes, 34 secondsthat has said that Luellando kind of groomed them about UFOs. Am I Did I lose lose my audio? I don't hear anybody.
39:4339 minutes, 43 secondsI can hear you, Tim. Okay. Okay, I hear you now.
39:4639 minutes, 46 secondsOkay. So, I was just saying uh we had Jeez, let's see.
39:5339 minutes, 53 secondsYeah, Luis Alzando, he has a habit of showing old UFO documents, some history, UFO history that he completely misrepresents. Like they're basic stuff
40:0240 minutes, 2 secondsthat we've had forever and he'll he'll go on a new show and be like, I've got this document and it actually doesn't say at all what he claims it says.
40:1140 minutes, 11 secondsSo, not a trustworthy dude.
40:1340 minutes, 13 secondsWell, my see if that's better.
40:1540 minutes, 15 secondsCan you guys hear me now? Okay. I was just going to say we had someone else actually stop in on the show had another story of of of similarly of Louis
40:2340 minutes, 23 secondsAlzando kind of I don't know I say almost like grooming behavior in regards to to UFOs right I what do you think his
40:3040 minutes, 30 secondsmotivation do you think he genuinely was that into it that he wanted or was there some nefarious like why wouldn't he get up there and say they're you know
40:3840 minutes, 38 secondsinstead of having you do it right right I mean that's that's a good question I I don't know but um I'll answer that but I think that it's
40:4740 minutes, 47 secondsYou know, it's important to say this, too, like a lot of people have different experiences with Lu Alzando, right? And so, for me, there's two very different
40:5640 minutes, 56 secondssides to that man, right? And um one side was was a person that would call me up and and have very genuine seemingly
41:0541 minutes, 5 secondsuh good conversations and and uh send very sincere genuine messages about my family and his family and stuff and and
41:1341 minutes, 13 secondsand so if that was all fake um okay fine maybe that's part of the process. I don't know. I didn't get that sense that
41:2141 minutes, 21 secondsthat was all [ __ ] but maybe maybe it is. I I will I will air on the side that it wasn't. Put that aside. When it comes
41:2941 minutes, 29 secondsto what I just told you about being asked to go on camera and these programs and stuff,
41:3741 minutes, 37 secondsfrom my perspective, [snorts] none of that's true, right? And so, why was I being sold this bill of goods? Why would
41:4541 minutes, 45 secondsthey want an average slob like me to go on camera and say these things? Well, to to sell a narrative, again, my
41:5241 minutes, 52 secondsperspective that isn't true. If if this narrative was true, you would not come to someone like me. You would get
41:5941 minutes, 59 secondssomeone that actually has legitimate information or someone with an intelligence background or some other background in science or whatever to um
42:0842 minutes, 8 secondslend credibility from a a position of actual expertise and actual background that matters. My background in the
42:1542 minutes, 15 secondsmilitary was, you know, driving tanks initially and and basic uh army stuff and then later on in emergency services.
42:2242 minutes, 22 secondsI I transferred from the army to the air force. Not a special career at all. Um and so it's just weird. And and it it
42:3142 minutes, 31 secondswhen I started looking at the other alleged whistleblowers, I felt that there was some
42:3842 minutes, 38 secondstroubling similarities between these people and myself, right? I was the type of person that was um you know I
42:4642 minutes, 46 secondsseemingly had this this background that could be dressed up, but I also had a an interest in the topic and um um maybe
42:5442 minutes, 54 secondssome of my background as far as like um um how do I put this? Like I think they
43:0143 minutes, 1 secondlook for like broken people a little bit, right? And I'm not I'm [clears throat] not saying that I'm not looking for pity
43:1043 minutes, 10 secondsor some [ __ ] I'm just saying that I know that I'm not a perfect human and um that I feel like um had my ego been if I
43:1943 minutes, 19 secondsdidn't have a low self-esteem, I probably would I might have fallen for this stuff, I might have gone forward, right? Cuz there was a lot of ego
43:2743 minutes, 27 secondsstroking there. And I've I've I've never been fond of like say doorto-d dooror salesman or any it just gives me the willies. And that's how I felt about it
43:3643 minutes, 36 secondsall. I felt that all of a sudden I was really being sold. One last thing I would say is that at at a point I asked
43:4443 minutes, 44 secondsLou I said what and this was like one of these most intense conversations like I was I was sweating and shaking when I asked this question and the question was
43:5343 minutes, 53 secondswhat is the best evidence that you've seen like what can you tell me can you give me the um I'm paraphrasing myself because I don't remember my exact words
44:0144 minutes, 1 secondbut I said I I understand there's certain things you won't be able to tell me etc etc you know classification and blah blah blah right but what could you tell me about the nature of the
44:1044 minutes, 10 secondsevidence. What is it before I get involved? Right. And in essence, what he told me about was arts parts, right? I
44:1844 minutes, 18 secondswas I just about threw I just about threw up, right?
44:2244 minutes, 22 secondsNo, that was that's what he cited as the best evidence was the arts part stuff.
44:2544 minutes, 25 secondsWell, he didn't he didn't call it he didn't call it arts, right? But I knew I knew from the this was a long conversation and I knew from from that conversation that
44:3344 minutes, 33 secondsthat's exactly what we were discussing, right? And I just felt like like a total idiot, right? And um and I probably said
44:4244 minutes, 42 secondsthings I shouldn't have said. I got very angry and and exploded and became [laughter] became a pretty ardent skeptic about this stuff at that point,
44:5044 minutes, 50 secondsyou know. And I I will say too there's if there's people listening like there were a lot of people that I went to um during that time because it was
44:5844 minutes, 58 secondsextremely u it was stressful even like it was um um I felt well I just basic basically felt like a total fool right
45:0645 minutes, 6 secondsand so I was trying to figure out the truth and so I was phoning everybody I could and you followed you to ask questions and get a second opinion and and there were some very good people out
45:1445 minutes, 14 secondsthere they know who they are and they they were um they were just good people along the way that sort of helped through through the [ __ ] Right on. Yeah.
45:2245 minutes, 22 secondsRight on. That's good to hear.
45:2445 minutes, 24 secondsDo you think that Louis Alzando found you or targeted you through SCU? Because
45:3245 minutes, 32 secondsI don't know if a lot of people not may not realize, but Rocky was actually involved with the Nimits report that SU did a couple years before this Alzando
45:4145 minutes, 41 secondsstuff. That's actually one of the ways I got introduced to Rocky a few years before all this Alzando stuff was because he's mentioned as a Canadian.
45:4945 minutes, 49 secondsThey don't mention his name, but they mentioned a Canadian Air Force guy that uh like consulted with him on the ATR stuff. And so is that how they found
45:5745 minutes, 57 secondsyou? Is um No, it it's not how they found me, but no no Lou Lou found me that I would love to talk about that thing for a minute because there there's some bunk
46:0546 minutes, 5 secondsthere too. Not not from you, but that I think I might have told you in the past that that me being a Flur expert like it's like whoa. Um but uh no no Lou
46:1446 minutes, 14 secondsdidn't find me that way. Lou found me through u the the interview. We we we reached out to him. It wasn't it wasn't Yeah. No, when it comes to the Flur
46:2346 minutes, 23 secondsthing, what happened was the the individual that was writing a report on on a the Auadia case, it wasn't actually the Nimids case, it was the Auadia case.
46:3046 minutes, 30 secondsOkay. Yeah.
46:3146 minutes, 31 secondsI believe was asking me, yeah, Robert was asking me questions about Flur. And so, yes, I've got a background using Flur. I'm an enduser
46:4046 minutes, 40 secondsand I've got a lot of experience using it and I've got some experience over the last you know say two decades instructing soldiers and firefighters
46:4946 minutes, 49 secondsand pilots how to interpret images on third. That's true but I am not an expert. There's a huge difference. Okay.
46:5746 minutes, 57 secondsSo, um I'm like a guy that like you know you talk to someone who knows how to paint a house just because they've done it a lot and then there's someone who
47:0547 minutes, 5 secondsdoes it for a living. I'm not the guy that does it for a living. Right. Yeah.
47:0947 minutes, 9 secondsOddly, that's that's kind of backward because I I I use Flur for a living, but my point is is that I don't I don't understand
47:1747 minutes, 17 secondsum the inner workings of the thermal imaging systems the the way that some engineer would, I guess, is a good way to put it.
47:2447 minutes, 24 secondsUm I can drive a car. Doesn't mean I know the workings of it.
47:2847 minutes, 28 secondsRight. So, so you know, um Robert asked me honest questions and I gave him honest feedback of what I thought. I
47:3747 minutes, 37 secondsnever thought that I would be called an expert on that. Right. So, I I I blush
47:4547 minutes, 45 secondsum every time I hear someone talk about that report, I I get red in the face because Yeah. I I wouldn't call myself an expert.
47:5347 minutes, 53 secondsYeah. Fair. Fair.
47:5647 minutes, 56 secondsYeah, it does. It does seem like SCU has uh kind of come up a couple of times in that regard though in terms of people
48:0348 minutes, 3 secondsmeeting there that were later taking on kind of these rides. But I don't know for for what it's worth.
48:0848 minutes, 8 secondsI I think that um again a lot of what we're seeing a lot of the experts um
48:1548 minutes, 15 secondslook if I had a little bit more of an ego I I wouldn't be telling you that I'm not an expert. Right? If if a lot of these people that are the
48:2348 minutes, 23 secondsexperts in eupfology don't know [ __ ] they don't know they don't know [ __ ] about [ __ ] Excuse my language but [laughter] that's a Canadian saying but
48:3148 minutes, 31 secondsum it's it's just the facts. And and so if we all drop our egos and just be totally straight up about what we are
48:3848 minutes, 38 secondsand what we know, um there's there's very little knowledge out there when it comes to this stuff. that it that's I
48:4648 minutes, 46 secondsthink it does say something about you know the state of UFO research quote unquote when just as an example like that's you know you're you're referred
48:5348 minutes, 53 secondsto as an expert in the system which you wouldn't refer to yourself in that way and right and and probably better reports you know written by a UFO group
49:0149 minutes, 1 secondyou know as much as I have mixed feelings about saying that but um well just just look at who gets presented as UFO experts like on the
49:0949 minutes, 9 secondsnews like News Nation where you got like Alzando Corbel like these people that like aren't even knowledgeable about
49:1749 minutes, 17 secondslike the history of this topic, let alone experts.
49:2149 minutes, 21 secondsHow can we be an expert on something that we cannot see, we cannot study, we cannot, right? Like it's it's very odd.
49:2849 minutes, 28 secondsThe I I wrote something the other day, but it's basically, you know, I think that eupfology is about people. It's
49:3549 minutes, 35 secondsabout claims. It's about um mythology, but it's never about the UFOs themselves. They always% the the UFOs
49:4249 minutes, 42 secondsnever seem to get discussed because we don't have the only the only interaction we the only way to look at any of this we have is from you know from the witnesses or
49:5049 minutes, 50 secondsfrom excluding kind of blurry photographs which are mostly useless right it's it's told by people it's experienced by people it's processed and
49:5849 minutes, 58 secondsrecalled by people and I think that's where all of the uh the important stuff is to be had at least personally you know
50:0650 minutes, 6 secondsI think even said you know we don't we can't study UFOs. We study UFO reports. Yes. Exactly.
50:1450 minutes, 14 secondsWhich come from people. Yeah.
50:1550 minutes, 15 secondsYeah. That's exactly right. And that's that that gets forgotten or missed a lot. There's a lot of these organizations like that's what Arrow
50:2450 minutes, 24 secondsdid. They studied reports, right? And um I think that um when we when we take
50:3150 minutes, 31 secondsaway the mysticism and that's what bothers me so much about this topic. I I do think that people see some things. I think that the human ability to perceive
50:3950 minutes, 39 secondsand conceive uh get uh it gets very foggy, right? We're we're very bad at at determining what it is we're looking at.
50:4850 minutes, 48 secondsAnd um you know, when when we do talk about things like thermal, it is exceptionally difficult to look through
50:5650 minutes, 56 secondsa thermal image and actually know what it is you're looking at unless you've unless you're able to see it with your naked eyes. It's it's very difficult. If
51:0351 minutes, 3 secondsyou see it through thermal first, it's very confusing. Um but you know this topic alto together it it just seems
51:1051 minutes, 10 secondslike what since 20 doesn't seem like in fact it's a fact that since 2017 we are being sold a narrative when you look at
51:1851 minutes, 18 secondsthe the uh tic tac case we told um hey look at we've got a video of this amazing thing and we're told that it
51:2651 minutes, 26 secondsdoes 90 degree turns and it can move at basically light speed and but when you watch the video it's this blob that lists lazily to the left right you know
51:3451 minutes, 34 secondskind of drifts off screen and and maybe the camera moved quickly, so it looks like it moved a little bit quicker. Um, we're given no data. Yeah,
51:4251 minutes, 42 secondswe're given we're given a narrative and on and on and on again with each case, the the actual data that we have never matches the alleged evidence, you know.
51:5351 minutes, 53 secondsAnd I do admit that witness testimony is a is a broad form of evidence, but it's so
52:0152 minutes, 1 secondit's so broad that it can only be so valuable, right? Yeah, absolutely.
52:0852 minutes, 8 secondsI I don't dismiss the topic or the possibilities.
52:1352 minutes, 13 secondsIt's always interesting that when spoken to Oh, go ahead, Jeeoff.
52:2052 minutes, 20 secondsI was just going to say it's it's always it's always interesting whenever you have a video to go along with the UFO
52:2752 minutes, 27 secondssighting. The video never matches up with what the people personally experience. they they might think that it was it was as big as a football field
52:3552 minutes, 35 seconds100 feet away and then you see the video and it looks like a star, you know, distant between a light in the sky.
52:4152 minutes, 41 secondsSo, it's Yeah, you know, I I saw um something when I was a kid, but I I didn't I wasn't alluded yet with the idea of UFOs being
52:4952 minutes, 49 secondsaliens, right? Um so, I I won't tell a big long story here, but just to make a point, I saw when I was about 9 or 10 years old, I was I was watching morning
52:5852 minutes, 58 secondscartoons. We lived on a in a waterfront house and um uh I looked over the couch and I could see something bright in the
53:0553 minutes, 5 secondssky and um got closer and closer. I'm going to make this really quick. And it was a big silver thing and um um I got
53:1453 minutes, 14 secondsbecause I didn't know what I was looking at. Um you get all those feelings, right? You get the chills and you're like, "What is that?" And there's nobody
53:2253 minutes, 22 secondselse awake in the house. And so I'm staring out the window and and of course I'm being distracted because I want to watch Wy Coyote and um [laughter]
53:3053 minutes, 30 secondsbest cartoon ever. And but but you get those feelings and had I known about aliens and UFOs, I'm sure
53:3853 minutes, 38 secondsI'm sure I would have jumped to that next level. But instead, I got I I was mesmerized by whatever this this phenomena was, this atmospheric
53:4653 minutes, 46 secondsphenomena, this whatever I saw. Um and um but because I was protected by ignorance, [laughter] right? I didn't I
53:5553 minutes, 55 secondsdidn't have that next thing to go to. So I just kind of dropped it, right?
53:5953 minutes, 59 secondsUm I my dive down the rabbit hole was like self-induced brainwashing. I got into the X Files later in life and I I
54:0754 minutes, 7 secondsgot into uh when the internet finally came about. I didn't have the internet in my house until 97 and the probably one of the first things
54:1554 minutes, 15 secondsI looked up was Sasquatch and UFOs and you know that kind of thing and and I was listening to Art Bell
54:2254 minutes, 22 secondsshows and so over a period of many years it was like um well that I don't believe this part of the story that's definitely
54:2854 minutes, 28 seconds[ __ ] but they probably saw something Travis Walton case or something and so like religion over time you start you
54:3854 minutes, 38 secondsinitially start off with kind of what you would call a generally grounded approach and then and then it gets exciting or something some other human
54:4754 minutes, 47 secondsfeelings come about and you start dropping those guard rails and pretty pretty soon you think that you know you were abducted by a left-handed lesbian
54:5554 minutes, 55 secondsall by no [ __ ] Nazi hooker [laughter] right it's um it it goes uh pretty fast and so
55:0355 minutes, 3 secondsI just gonna just like you said if you didn't have that UFO narrative to some degree already absorbed into your your psyche most of the these videos and photos,
55:1255 minutes, 12 secondsthere'd be no indication at all that this was evidence of, you know, this story, right? It's just that we have this pre-existing idea about what it what it would mean.
55:2155 minutes, 21 secondsYeah. I mean, people see things, no doubt. Uh we we detect things on radar, no question about it. But to jump to we
55:2855 minutes, 28 secondsdon't know what it was, therefore it is aliens is a bizarre concept, right?
55:3355 minutes, 33 secondsConsidering the way I I think about that is the discovery one day of actual evidence proof of extraterrestrial
55:4355 minutes, 43 secondsanything whether it be four light years away on on some other distant planet whether it be here doing crop art I
55:5055 minutes, 50 secondsdon't care but that that discovery would be an absolutely incredible thing like the most so let's get it right
55:5755 minutes, 57 secondsyou know instead instead of diving down the religiosity the consciousness [ __ ] rabbit hole uh Well, look, I apologize if anybody is
56:0556 minutes, 5 secondsis into that, but I I just think that we've attached all these other things to the UFO because the UFO itself isn't
56:1256 minutes, 12 secondsplaying games. It's not showing up, right? Absolutely.
56:1656 minutes, 16 secondsSo, we've given it all these other other chances to exist.
56:2056 minutes, 20 secondsYeah. Yeah. for for me to change my understanding about how the entire universe works, I need evidence that's beyond, well, it could just as likely
56:2856 minutes, 28 secondsbe, you know, a government hazing program or a fly or, you know, something in front of the it's got to be something
56:3556 minutes, 35 secondsthat's that's legitimately strong evidence to make that. And but, you know, that like you say, the absence of of evidence, hard evidence leads to the
56:4456 minutes, 44 secondsfilling in of that with with whatever belief, right? Whatever belief system, right?
56:4956 minutes, 49 secondsYeah. Look at the Steven Greer stuff. I mean, yeah, I actually I went camping um probably five, six years ago. I took
56:5656 minutes, 56 secondssome people out that were really into they were friends with Steven Greer and I I didn't know that until the day I met them. Um they were nice folks. Um took them out camping. I was sort of their
57:0557 minutes, 5 secondsguide in the wilderness here in the in the BC Rockies and they were um really into the C5 stuff and while we were out
57:1357 minutes, 13 secondsthey were shining lasers into the sky innocently, you know. And uh not an aircraft or anything, just shining lights in the sky and and we're sitting
57:2057 minutes, 20 secondsthere and all of a sudden one of them says, "Do you see that?" And I'm like, "See what?" Right? Like no. And they all start seeing something. There was
57:2857 minutes, 28 secondsnothing there but like a form of mass hysteria or whatever you want to call it like a um like a group sort of thing.
57:3857 minutes, 38 secondsYeah.
57:3857 minutes, 38 secondsThey all started agreeing that they were seeing something. They weren't. But I I recognized something during that moment. These were broken men.
57:4657 minutes, 46 secondsThese were men that needed each other and they were having an experience sort of like little kids do when they go camping and they get excited about they saw a ghost in the young house or
57:5557 minutes, 55 secondssomething, right? And they all agreed all of a sudden for 15 minutes that there was something there. And and I saw that group of men, that group of people were
58:0458 minutes, 4 secondswere good people and they were creating an experience to bond to have something to feel some sort of I don't know power
58:1358 minutes, 13 secondslike in the sense of being worthy of something.
58:1658 minutes, 16 secondsAnd that that's the that's the sense I got. I didn't feel that these people were were bad folks at all. Very good people in fact. The fact though that
58:2458 minutes, 24 secondsguys like Steven Greer come along and they they know how to find these people and they know how to use them and they were used
58:3258 minutes, 32 secondsand um and it's and so I I do see that all over Euphology. It is a rampant disgusting cancer in fact.
58:4058 minutes, 40 secondsYeah. Yeah.
58:4158 minutes, 41 secondsHave you spoken to um Jeremy McGoan Rocky? Yeah. Many times.
58:4558 minutes, 45 secondsDo you see like many parallels with his experience?
58:4958 minutes, 49 secondsYes. And I I I let that man down when I when he interviewed me on the Steve Cambian show. He asked me a very pointed question about um
58:5858 minutes, 58 secondshe asked me did I if I could expand on how did he phrase that some sort of something that happened in Ottawa and I
59:0659 minutes, 6 secondsI was too dopey to pick up on what he was putting down. He was trying to not lead the question and I was just too slow to pick up on what he was asking
59:1459 minutes, 14 secondsme. I feel like a dork because in fact I I could have backed him up a lot. Yeah, we had some experiences that were
59:2159 minutes, 21 secondsidentical and Jeremy McGawan was in fact badmouthed by the Lu Alazando crew. Um,
59:2859 minutes, 28 secondsand he he was he was lied about and um he he was freaking abused and and Jeremy
59:3559 minutes, 35 secondsis an exceptionally intelligent good man and didn't deserve any [ __ ] like that. He's ex Jeremy is I know he gets a lot of flack and people say he's lying.
59:4459 minutes, 44 secondsHe is not. Jeremy is 100% honest when it comes to his experiences with that group. Yeah.
59:5259 minutes, 52 secondsYeah.
59:5459 minutes, 54 secondsI would I I'll say that to my last dying breath. Yep.
59:5959 minutes, 59 secondsI've only met Lou briefly a few times in person and I came away thinking that's a sleazy used car smellsman guy right
1:00:071 hour, 7 secondsthere. Like just not trustworthy. The guy didn't know crap about UFOs. Like I just got a bad vibe off him like the second I met the guy.
1:00:151 hour, 15 secondsI always felt like um like Steve Steve Long is going to laugh at me because I I always have these sort of side
1:00:231 hour, 23 secondsconspiracy theories, but it's not that I have an actual theory worked out. But if this is all just a grift for money, then
1:00:311 hour, 31 secondscongratulations. I think they've done well. Um, but if it is more than that, you know, going back to the 2017
1:00:381 hour, 38 secondspolitical arena, and I don't I'm not I'm not here to jump into anybody's politics or go left or right or I don't care. My
1:00:451 hour, 45 secondspoint is is that during that time, uh, things like UFOs are are a fantastic
1:00:521 hour, 52 secondsway to strip away authority of certain departments and organizations and institutions. So, in other words, don't
1:01:001 hour, 1 minutego to the government for this. Don't ask them. You can't trust them. Trust me.
1:01:041 hour, 1 minute, 4 secondsRight. And that's that's what this whole thing seemed to be. And and and so if that's true, then maybe these people like Lou and others might end up one day with government positions.
1:01:141 hour, 1 minute, 14 secondsH weird, you know, guess what's happening, right? And and so it's it's very odd. And you see that a lot in in the kind of politics that's going around
1:01:221 hour, 1 minute, 22 secondsthese days. There's just a lot of spinning and um undermining. And that's I don't I don't have a theory beyond
1:01:301 hour, 1 minute, 30 secondsthat, but it's there seems to be a very right-wing political connection to a lot of this stuff.
1:01:371 hour, 1 minute, 37 secondsAnd I think worth worth remembering too, you know, reasoning and motivation can be multi- multifactor, right? It could be it could be money as well as ego as
1:01:461 hour, 1 minute, 46 secondswell as genuine belief as well as or you know, some mixture of of any of those things.
1:01:501 hour, 1 minute, 50 secondsFor sure. Yeah. Absolutely. But I mean, if you got blue orbs living in your house for four years, you'd think you'd take a picture, take a photo, right? Yeah. Yeah.
1:01:581 hour, 1 minute, 58 secondsYeah. Yeah. There's there's I I feel bad for everybody that's been involved in this in a way because,
1:02:061 hour, 2 minutes, 6 secondsyou know, so many people, including myself, and again, not feeling sorry for myself, I'm just saying I feel bad for everybody because it's like we were sold
1:02:131 hour, 2 minutes, 13 secondssomething that, you know, your hopes and dreams are pretty innocent. Like, wouldn't it be awesome if aliens are real, right?
1:02:191 hour, 2 minutes, 19 secondsThe other the other side to that is the secret knowledge side. like you start feeling like you're in on something that that you have the upper hand on life, the universe, and everything, right?
1:02:291 hour, 2 minutes, 29 secondsYeah.
1:02:301 hour, 2 minutes, 30 secondsAnd and you don't know [ __ ] [laughter] And um and and they use that sort of innocence that everybody has, everybody on all sides of this topic. Um when we
1:02:391 hour, 2 minutes, 39 secondstalk about believers and skeptics, it's actually kind of sad, too. It's just people. And um and and sure, people
1:02:461 hour, 2 minutes, 46 secondsbelieve things, but why do they believe it? And and when we poke at that, you know, why people believe things, they
1:02:541 hour, 2 minutes, 54 secondsbecome uh easy targets because you can start really manipulating people. So that I guess my my takeaway from all of this stuff is it's pure manipulation,
1:03:021 hour, 3 minutes, 2 secondswhatever it's about, whether it be a grift, whether it be a government program or whatever, it's [ __ ] And and people are being used. Yeah.
1:03:101 hour, 3 minutes, 10 secondsEven if somewhere there's an alien in a freezer, it's still [ __ ] Yeah.
1:03:171 hour, 3 minutes, 17 secondsYou know what I mean? like they they really could have something, but everything we've been told is crap. And that that I would I would argue that not
1:03:241 hour, 3 minutes, 24 secondsa single whistleblower ever to come forward knows anything. That those who talk or you know those who talk don't know and those who know don't talk, right?
1:03:331 hour, 3 minutes, 33 secondsYeah.
1:03:341 hour, 3 minutes, 34 secondsI'd argue none of them can be called whistleblowers. I think that's a misuse of the term. Whistleblowers present evidence.
1:03:411 hour, 3 minutes, 41 secondsYeah. I totally And then they they have to worry about actual consequences that aren't, you know, kind of stories that aren't really
1:03:491 hour, 3 minutes, 49 secondswellverified about someone moving something in my house while I wasn't home or whatever the, you know, or buy your bootprints or whatever,
1:03:561 hour, 3 minutes, 56 secondsright? Yeah. Or getting $100,000 in a, you know, overnight in a charity donation drive. Those kinds of consequences.
1:04:041 hour, 4 minutes, 4 secondsYeah.
1:04:051 hour, 4 minutes, 5 secondsUm, and people say there's no money in UFOs.
1:04:101 hour, 4 minutes, 10 seconds[laughter]
1:04:101 hour, 4 minutes, 10 secondsThere are tens of millions of dollars if not more, you know. Yeah, there's a lot of money in UFOs.
1:04:151 hour, 4 minutes, 15 secondsIf you lack the morals and ethics, there's lots of money in UFOs. Yeah.
1:04:191 hour, 4 minutes, 19 secondsIt's it's interesting. You know, there's this before 2017, we you know, a lot of us would listen to the old Art Bell show
1:04:271 hour, 4 minutes, 27 secondsor, you know, James Fox's latest documentary, whatever it was at the time, you know, and and that stuff was always kind of intriguing and got a lot of people interested. right after 2017.
1:04:401 hour, 4 minutes, 40 secondsThat's what I'm saying is freaking obvious, but there all of a sudden was this explosion, right, of grassroots podcasts and shows just like this. The
1:04:491 hour, 4 minutes, 49 secondsthe whole reason I I I got to know Lou was because of that excitement. Mhm.
1:04:531 hour, 4 minutes, 53 secondsSo whatever their aim, it was highly successful in that they wanted to keep that conversation going and they wanted
1:05:011 hour, 5 minutes, 1 secondthat to build and and so one could argue as a believer that they wanted the conversation going and this is what they say. They say that they wanted it to to
1:05:101 hour, 5 minutes, 10 secondsbuild so that it would um make it normal in the public and that um uh it would be you know more palatable for the the
1:05:171 hour, 5 minutes, 17 secondsgeneral public and we could ease people into this knowledge as though as though those people in the know were somehow um
1:05:251 hour, 5 minutes, 25 secondsbetter equipped to deal with this startling knowledge of ET being on Earth. like it's such a hubris that it's it's a slap in the face to the general
1:05:331 hour, 5 minutes, 33 secondspublic and it's it's it's so it's it's never about bringing us evidence. It's
1:05:401 hour, 5 minutes, 40 secondsnever about a conclusion. The actual aim is anticipation.
1:05:451 hour, 5 minutes, 45 secondsThat's it, right? Keep it at the level of anticipation all the time and you can steer that wherever you want it to go and use it for whatever you like. Do you
1:05:531 hour, 5 minutes, 53 secondsthink that's an endless Can you Can you keep that kind of anticipation endlessly or pick a religion? Yeah. Yeah.
1:06:001 hour, 6 minutesI think it goes in cycles. It does. It does.
1:06:041 hour, 6 minutes, 4 secondsI think you can keep it going for a while, then it dies down and then it comes back up again. Which is why like look at Greer for example. He's had his big disclosure pushes in the past as
1:06:121 hour, 6 minutes, 12 secondswell, you know, like 15 years ago, 25 years ago. Like I think it it goes in cycles is what happens.
1:06:181 hour, 6 minutes, 18 secondsI I agree with that as well. Yeah. Does it go in cycles because of like political or cultural developments or is it its own thing?
1:06:281 hour, 6 minutes, 28 secondsI don't know. I would I'd always be and I and I'm I would think someone has made some attempts at least with with this
1:06:351 hour, 6 minutes, 35 secondskind of analysis, but I'd always be interested in, you know, just kind of gross number of UFO reports and or flaps or whatever contrasted against things
1:06:441 hour, 6 minutes, 44 secondslike, you know, economic issues and global conflicts and, you know, things that would create anxieties in people or or or on the other hand, you know, heighten their hope also. Right.
1:06:541 hour, 6 minutes, 54 secondsRight.
1:06:551 hour, 6 minutes, 55 secondsYeah. There is some there is some indication that that could be true but um it's a little bit sketchy but there
1:07:011 hour, 7 minutes, 1 secondis some evidence for it but um yeah I was asking that because the the cyclical nature of it um it
1:07:111 hour, 7 minutes, 11 secondsseems like it goes up and down but then it seems like in each cycle there's something a little bit different. Yeah. Yeah.
1:07:181 hour, 7 minutes, 18 secondsRight. So like you could have like like the space brothers, you know, in the 50s and 60s and then you've got like the more abduction type narratives and then
1:07:261 hour, 7 minutes, 26 secondslike the Yeah.
1:07:271 hour, 7 minutes, 27 secondsexperiments and then now we've got more of a esoteric spiritualist type of way.
1:07:331 hour, 7 minutes, 33 secondsIt always seems Yeah, that's Sorry. Go ahead Rocky. Go ahead.
1:07:371 hour, 7 minutes, 37 secondsUh sorry the um the esoteric you are so bang on there. it it at the end of the cycle of you go from nuts and
1:07:451 hour, 7 minutes, 45 secondsbolts, you know, we don't really care um who's behind the wheel. We want to know how they work. Nuts and bolts, right? To pretty soon it leads into um you know
1:07:541 hour, 7 minutes, 54 secondsthere might be beings living under the ocean and um then uh we can't prove that but uh we think they're inter interdimensional beings and uh maybe
1:08:021 hour, 8 minutes, 2 secondsthey're demons, right? Esoteric and it always goes there because if you have nothing physical to show, where else can you go? Right? So that's where the cycle
1:08:111 hour, 8 minutes, 11 secondswe're talking about cycles. Maybe that's where that cycle kind of pauses, right? Turns into the contact movement, right?
1:08:171 hour, 8 minutes, 17 secondsWhere people all of a sudden start talking in tongues and and doing like telepathic communication, downloads with alleged beings somewhere else in the
1:08:251 hour, 8 minutes, 25 secondsuniverse talking to angels and um and then it vanishes. It quiets and quiets down for a while, goes back to the nuts and bolts and comes back again.
1:08:341 hour, 8 minutes, 34 secondsYeah. Something like that.
1:08:361 hour, 8 minutes, 36 secondsThere's a sense of desperation kind of in that, right, of It sure is. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's it's
1:08:441 hour, 8 minutes, 44 secondssad, too, because again, um people see things and they're not all liars, right?
1:08:501 hour, 8 minutes, 50 secondsAnd and how how frustrating is that that if somebody sees something that is incredible to them?
1:08:561 hour, 8 minutes, 56 secondsThey don't have the data to to def definitively decide what that is and then someone comes along that seems to
1:09:041 hour, 9 minutes, 4 secondshave authority, right? And says, "Ah, right. It's this or that." And and then they they start getting used and that Yeah. It's despicable.
1:09:121 hour, 9 minutes, 12 secondsOne one thing people most people can't stand is a sense of ambiguity about something, right? So if you can come along with an explanation about what they saw or experienced, they're going
1:09:201 hour, 9 minutes, 20 secondsto oftenimes latch on to that because it's more comfortable than than not knowing at all. Right.
1:09:251 hour, 9 minutes, 25 secondsYeah. Yeah. It would be neat to have a sort of a a counter campaign on the topic in the sense of helping people
1:09:341 hour, 9 minutes, 34 secondsunderstand that the scientific method is not a belief system.
1:09:371 hour, 9 minutes, 37 secondsIt's it's a it's a system of asking questions and that you don't have to be a university educated professor to understand the scientific method. Right.
1:09:451 hour, 9 minutes, 45 secondsYeah. Yeah, absolutely.
1:09:471 hour, 9 minutes, 47 secondsSo I had I realized this and had I really understood what critical thinking was, I would have never gone down that rabbit hole, right? Like a lot of
1:09:551 hour, 9 minutes, 55 secondspeople. But hopes and dreams, man. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
1:10:011 hour, 10 minutes, 1 secondBut then again, the UFO mythos is it sort of inoculates people against itself. Like with your experience, like
1:10:091 hour, 10 minutes, 9 secondsyou went through it and now you're more resistant to pseudocience, right? So maybe many people do need to kind of go through
1:10:161 hour, 10 minutes, 16 secondsthat and I went through that as well, right? Yeah. Did you find aspect?
1:10:211 hour, 10 minutes, 21 secondsThere is there is a very positive aspect. I started asking my questions.
1:10:251 hour, 10 minutes, 25 secondsI'm curious if you I've talked to Steve Long about this as well. Um did you find yourself asking did you ask yourself questions like why do I believe what I
1:10:331 hour, 10 minutes, 33 secondsbelieve and then that spread to other aspects of your life as well?
1:10:381 hour, 10 minutes, 38 secondsI suppose so. Um, like I I kind of believed in the uh Roswell coverup stuff when I was a teenager, like with the
1:10:461 hour, 10 minutes, 46 seconds1990s and X Files and all those UFO documentaries and whatnot, TV specials.
1:10:531 hour, 10 minutes, 53 secondsBut then, um, I don't know, I just kind of started to read more science and apply that to my
1:11:011 hour, 11 minutes, 1 secondbelief in eupf in UFOs. And yeah, I started to see holes in it. And so, you
1:11:101 hour, 11 minutes, 10 secondsknow, that was kind of my route if you like, right?
1:11:151 hour, 11 minutes, 15 secondsI felt when I was backing out of it, um, that I I felt, and this is a lot a lot of this is my own doing, right? I I felt that I was leading a cult in a way.
1:11:251 hour, 11 minutes, 25 secondsIt was like I got to a point where I'm like, "Okay, this is definitely BS, but I still I still think there's this, right?" And then it was like every week
1:11:331 hour, 11 minutes, 33 secondsI would strip away another layer. It it was like a reverse of what I did to get there, right? It was [clears throat] kind of exactly the same thing. It took me about
1:11:411 hour, 11 minutes, 41 secondslike honestly like four years to to to get to a point where I think I was um grounded in some sense of objective reality, you know, truthfully
1:11:501 hour, 11 minutes, 50 secondstruthfully. And and [laughter] the scary part about this is and here I'm going to be totally self-deprecating, but this is this is a fact.
1:11:561 hour, 11 minutes, 56 secondsI'm a fire arson explosion investigator and I have to use the scientific method daily. Yeah. How does a person like
1:12:061 hour, 12 minutes, 6 secondsmyself end up buying into a lot of this BS?
1:12:101 hour, 12 minutes, 10 secondsIt's because, you know, clearly I'm nobody special. But the point is is that we I mentioned what I did for a living.
1:12:171 hour, 12 minutes, 17 secondsThat becomes a sales point, right? And so we we all assume that a person that does this, that, or the other thing is is impervious. Well, that's total
1:12:251 hour, 12 minutes, 25 secondshorseshit. All of us have these same falibilities and and ability to to lose sight of that um you know sort of plane
1:12:331 hour, 12 minutes, 33 secondsof reality to to some degree in our lives. So absolutely you know I've spent many years studying conspiracy theory and why people believe
1:12:421 hour, 12 minutes, 42 secondsin them and how they work. I've got you know a massive library kind of like my UFO library all on academic books about conspiracy theory. And that's kind of
1:12:501 hour, 12 minutes, 50 secondsone of uh uh one of the things that they they kind of uh point out about conspiracy
1:12:571 hour, 12 minutes, 57 secondstheories. Um is Jesus Christ, I shouldn't have ate that edible before the show.
1:13:031 hour, 13 minutes, 3 seconds[laughter]
1:13:041 hour, 13 minutes, 4 seconds[gasps]
1:13:041 hour, 13 minutes, 4 secondsI just lost my train of thought. That's embarrassing. I I did that once before an interview.
1:13:111 hour, 13 minutes, 11 seconds[laughter]
1:13:121 hour, 13 minutes, 12 secondsYeah.
1:13:141 hour, 13 minutes, 14 secondsOh man. Uh maybe it's a good time to uh for uh I think maybe it was paranormal.
1:13:191 hour, 13 minutes, 19 secondsSomebody had had asked or had brought up Robert Anton Wilson recently and I had a a quick Robert Anton Wilson story for those of you guys interested. I got to
1:13:271 hour, 13 minutes, 27 secondsmeet Well, first of all, it is the uh the anniversary not only of September 11th but also of the uh the National UFO
1:13:351 hour, 13 minutes, 35 secondsConference organized by uh Smiles Lewis and Jim Mosley that didn't happen because of September 11th. And uh Robert Anton Wilson and Jenny Randles were
1:13:431 hour, 13 minutes, 43 secondsgoing to be there. I think one of them got stuck at an airport, you know, for like days. But anyway, uh the conference was going to be September 14th of 2001.
1:13:521 hour, 13 minutes, 52 secondsObviously, it didn't happen, but Robert Anton Wilson was going to be there. But long story short, I had a cute little interaction with Robert Anton Wilson in
1:13:591 hour, 13 minutes, 59 secondsAtlanta where he um um he was speaking one year and I was there. Um uh I got to sit down and have a hot dog
1:14:081 hour, 14 minutes, 8 secondsfor lunch with him. um that was interesting and fun and uh I got to ask him about non-human intelligence and he told me a story which I'll paraphrase
1:14:151 hour, 14 minutes, 15 secondsvery quickly about uh an early life I believe acid trip that he had if I recall the details right where there was a Christmas tree still in his family's
1:14:231 hour, 14 minutes, 23 secondshouse and he explained to me the experience of um the Christmas feeling that the Christmas tree loved him and he
1:14:321 hour, 14 minutes, 32 secondssaid at the time when he was a young person uh he actually teared up and started crying during the and he actually had tears in his as he told me
1:14:391 hour, 14 minutes, 39 secondsthis 50, 60 years later or whatever, right? That of the Christmas tree that loved him and he had tears kind of coming. He said, "I could feel that this
1:14:471 hour, 14 minutes, 47 secondsChristmas tree, he like had a love for me and I loved it back, right?" Uh, and the hot dog was a hot dog with mustard only. Paranormal, by the way. That's the
1:14:541 hour, 14 minutes, 54 secondsway you eat a hot dog, Bob said. Um, uh, so that was interesting. And and I asked him about his thoughts about non-human
1:15:011 hour, 15 minutes, 1 secondintelligence or aliens, and he just kind of said, "I hope so." That was his thought as to whether any of that actually exists. But yeah, I remembered what I was gonna say.
1:15:101 hour, 15 minutes, 10 secondsOh, there we go. Perfect. Go back to Jeff. Yeah, thank you for uh uh Steve for reminding me. I honestly just like forgot what
1:15:181 hour, 15 minutes, 18 secondsRocky was just talking about. Like it just went blank and then I went blank.
1:15:221 hour, 15 minutes, 22 secondsSo anyways, [laughter] he was talking about how people like how they can use their logic and science in their everyday jobs and still come to believe this stuff. And one of the
1:15:301 hour, 15 minutes, 30 secondsthings they found when studying conspiracy theories and like kind of like people to believe in him is that a lot of times highly intelligent smart people are actually more susceptible for
1:15:391 hour, 15 minutes, 39 secondsfalling for conspiracy theories and [ __ ] And one of the reasons is is that it's kind of it's kind of like a Dunning Krueger thing. One of Dunning
1:15:461 hour, 15 minutes, 46 secondsKrueger isn't just o over uh isn't just like kind over it's overestimating and underestimating your abilities. And so
1:15:531 hour, 15 minutes, 53 secondsreally smart people kind of overestimate their ability to detect [ __ ] and to like kind of like filter it out. They think they're too smart to fall for it.
1:16:021 hour, 16 minutes, 2 secondsAnd that actually is how you get them.
1:16:041 hour, 16 minutes, 4 secondsThat's how they fall for the cons like in the first place. And so you have a lot of highly intelligent people like look at for example Gary Nolan. I have
1:16:121 hour, 16 minutes, 12 secondsno doubt in his actual medical career he's a smart dude and can do whatever he can do. Whatever reason that does not translate into his beliefs. And so you
1:16:201 hour, 16 minutes, 20 secondscould have highly intelligent people completely whackadoo belief systems and it seems contradictory but it actually works out and they've actually found
1:16:281 hour, 16 minutes, 28 secondsthat smart people are more more susceptible a lot of times to conspiracy theories and funk. I think similarly you I mean Jim Mosley used to tell me right
1:16:361 hour, 16 minutes, 36 secondseven just being what do you say being in the military or government doesn't mean you can't believe crazy things right we talk about some of these kind of kind of folks um
1:16:441 hour, 16 minutes, 44 secondsand you know it might even even more so right maybe even make it more more likely hey Steve bring on Steve
1:16:521 hour, 16 minutes, 52 secondsCllor [clears throat] um hey Steve Yo [snorts] what's up guys I was gonna say how's it going man Keith Plur called me one time and we
1:17:011 hour, 17 minutes, 1 seconddon't know each other but It was after I'd done a an interview or something.
1:17:051 hour, 17 minutes, 5 secondsAnd he calls me up and he he I'm I'm going to make some assumptions here, but he basically had the assumption he was calling another whackadoodle
1:17:121 hour, 17 minutes, 12 secondseuphologist, right? And that I was going to try to squirrel out of and make excuses for my belief system or something. and and um you know, but I I
1:17:221 hour, 17 minutes, 22 secondsthink I shocked him by by admitting like well what he said was you know well on you know at this time you know you you said that you saw something when you
1:17:301 hour, 17 minutes, 30 secondswere a kid and now you say you weren't really a believer and I'm like you know you're absolutely right and that's interesting to me because it's it's funny how we remember things
1:17:391 hour, 17 minutes, 39 secondsright these things kind of drip slowly into our lives and here I'm telling people and myself like well no I was
1:17:471 hour, 17 minutes, 47 secondsnever really a hardcore believer and this stuff but at the same time 30 seconds earlier I am saying something else about a an experience or a belief
1:17:551 hour, 17 minutes, 55 secondsin the way I perceived it at that time and it like like any topic it builds uh your sort of baseline belief system and
1:18:021 hour, 18 minutes, 2 secondsI think it can become very um much part of your personality and unless you take the time to ask yourself why do I
1:18:101 hour, 18 minutes, 10 secondsbelieve what I believe and are those beliefs based in hard facts um I know that I ended up in in some strange places in my mind. I think so.
1:18:221 hour, 18 minutes, 22 secondsYeah. Yeah. That's something I've shared repeatedly.
1:18:261 hour, 18 minutes, 26 secondsI've I repeatedly tell people you've got to take stock of what the various things you believe in. You've got to ask yourself why you believe in that. What evidence do you have to believe in that?
1:18:351 hour, 18 minutes, 35 secondsHas have things changed since you came to that kind of determination? Maybe it's time to reassess whether you really should continue to believe in that. And unfortunately, most people in this topic
1:18:441 hour, 18 minutes, 44 secondsand not just most people just in the whole world don't ever do that. They never take time to reassess their beliefs when that's something I do fairly regularly.
1:18:531 hour, 18 minutes, 53 secondsYeah. That's something people need to do.
1:18:551 hour, 18 minutes, 55 secondsI do it now. And Steve, you and I have talked about that.
1:18:581 hour, 18 minutes, 58 secondsYeah. In fact, I'd like to like sometimes I think that the silver bullet to this stuff would be like dstigmatizing
1:19:061 hour, 19 minutes, 6 secondsrevising your position. Um, like I feel like there's such a for all kinds of reasons, people are just really unwilling to get humble and admit when
1:19:151 hour, 19 minutes, 15 secondsthey were wrong, especially if they've been publicly invested in something for years.
1:19:181 hour, 19 minutes, 18 secondsUm, and build a community around it. Um, it's just a lot easier to not do that.
1:19:241 hour, 19 minutes, 24 secondsAnd a lot of people just don't don't want to face that. And I think if we could destigmatize that and um make it understood that like we we're probably
1:19:331 hour, 19 minutes, 33 secondswrong a lot of the time, right? And like we should be okay with with with saying that and revising our position based on better evidence.
1:19:411 hour, 19 minutes, 41 secondsThat's how that's how we learn and we should never stop learning hopefully. Yeah.
1:19:451 hour, 19 minutes, 45 secondsJust this just this week somebody on Twitter was talking about how uh debunk people don't like to be debunked. And I
1:19:531 hour, 19 minutes, 53 secondsreplied, "Actually, I would love to be debunked. If you've got evidence to show me what I said is wrong, please please tell me because I don't want to continue
1:20:011 hour, 20 minutes, 1 secondon in my life being wrong. I want to be corrected with the correct information so I can then be factual moving forward.
1:20:081 hour, 20 minutes, 8 secondsYou should want to be debunked if somebody can debunk you. You should encourage that.
1:20:131 hour, 20 minutes, 13 secondsIt's actually Yeah, I became a skeptic because I got debunked, right? Like I right I debunked myself and and other people did with evidence and I realized that
1:20:211 hour, 20 minutes, 21 secondsthe things that I had believed for years, decades in some cases, um were were false and and not based on good
1:20:281 hour, 20 minutes, 28 secondsevidence. Um, what is it called when a person has two competing theories? Uh, dissonance.
1:20:361 hour, 20 minutes, 36 secondsYes. Cognitive dissonance, right?
1:20:391 hour, 20 minutes, 39 secondsYeah. And I I don't know if that's overused or not, but I think that that definitely describes where I was at. You know, part of my brain was like, scientifically, this is this is total
1:20:471 hour, 20 minutes, 47 secondshorseshit, right? But but what about this? It, you know, you start talking about things like logic. Well, but logically it must be. And it's like, no, wait a second. Logic is why we used to
1:20:561 hour, 20 minutes, 56 secondsum you know uh burn women at the stake for being witches, right? Like that was that was logic at its worst. And um so
1:21:041 hour, 21 minutes, 4 secondslogic is not the scientific method, right?
1:21:061 hour, 21 minutes, 6 secondsYeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Plenty of things seem, you know, like logically they could be true or or make sense, right? But aren't necessarily
1:21:141 hour, 21 minutes, 14 secondsaren't necessarily objectively, you know, the explanation for uh you know, there's actually Oh, go ahead, Steve.
1:21:221 hour, 21 minutes, 22 secondsNo, no, go ahead, Louis, please. I was just going to quickly say that there's actually um a hypothesis from evolutionary biology that tries to
1:21:311 hour, 21 minutes, 31 secondsexplain why humans are sort of post hawk justifiers of beliefs that they already have instead of so if you think of it like a
1:21:391 hour, 21 minutes, 39 secondsjudge versus a a lawyer. A judge is like trying to ostensibly weigh up all the evidence and doesn't have a bias one way
1:21:471 hour, 21 minutes, 47 secondsor the other. Whereas a lawyer already goes in with their preferred narrative and then tries to basically reverse
1:21:541 hour, 21 minutes, 54 secondsengineer the story to fit it. Right? And humans are more like the latter.
1:22:001 hour, 22 minutesSo that is sort of like the default state that we have. We have to sort of cultivate ourselves out of that with a scientific method. And um a reason that
1:22:091 hour, 22 minutes, 9 secondswe might be like this is because of um I think the explanation was something to do with uh ensuring like group cohesion,
1:22:161 hour, 22 minutes, 16 secondsright? you're trying to sort of in the hunter gatherer um context in which we evolved, we had to sort of stick
1:22:231 hour, 22 minutes, 23 secondstogether. Um and sort of that might be the reason why we're like that. We've got that sort of bias towards believing
1:22:311 hour, 22 minutes, 31 secondsthings and then justifying those beliefs after the fact. Anyway, I just um thought you might be interested in that, Tim, since it's kind of your field, right?
1:22:401 hour, 22 minutes, 40 secondsSo, yeah. Yeah. So yeah, that that goes along with the idea there's a a great philosopher, modern day
1:22:481 hour, 22 minutes, 48 secondsphilosopher Daniel Williams that I'm a fan of. Uh something he's created
1:23:061 hour, 23 minutes, 6 secondsgroup cohesion. One of the reasons why, for example, if you live in a community that's heavily religious and you're not
1:23:131 hour, 23 minutes, 13 secondspart of that religion, you might be part of that religion, you might have that belief just to get along with your society and your community.
1:23:211 hour, 23 minutes, 21 secondsAnd so there's all sorts of reasons and rationalizations that we come up with in order to stay in a community um and to stay in a kind of like a belief system.
1:23:291 hour, 23 minutes, 29 secondsAnd it may not even actually be true belief that you actually have. I think I find a lot of people also don't think
1:23:361 hour, 23 minutes, 36 secondsthat they believe in something like we think that our beliefs are founded upon good evidence right like that's what we think that's why we believe in things um
1:23:451 hour, 23 minutes, 45 secondswe don't believe in them frivolously and a lot of it there's the disconnect in understanding what is valid and
1:23:531 hour, 23 minutes, 53 secondsreliable evidence and what is not. Um and this topic is a great example. Its foundation is the um argument of
1:24:011 hour, 24 minutes, 1 secondauthority, right? And essentially all we have is stories and assertions from people. People who have letters after their names. People who say they were
1:24:091 hour, 24 minutes, 9 secondsthere. People who wouldn't lie. Why would they lie? Right? And of course this isn't good. This isn't good
1:24:161 hour, 24 minutes, 16 secondsevidence. Um and unfortunately that line is totally blurred. And not just in this topic, but just as a whole. Like I went
1:24:231 hour, 24 minutes, 23 secondsthrough all of high school, college, and never even understood or was taught the difference between verifiable information and anecdotal information.
1:24:341 hour, 24 minutes, 34 secondsJust like the simple um process of learning how to discern information and having some, you know, media literacy and stuff.
1:24:421 hour, 24 minutes, 42 secondsUm and and most people are just totally ignorant of that. A lot of people that I know now are teachers um don't even
1:24:501 hour, 24 minutes, 50 secondsunderstand these these differences which should literally be the basis of of knowledge and should be the first ground that we cover. Yeah.
1:24:571 hour, 24 minutes, 57 secondsI I wonder if things like science education campaigns would have any kind of or have had any kind of impact on you know numbers of UFOs reported. That's
1:25:061 hour, 25 minutes, 6 secondskind of a long shot but I would think so along with media and movies.
1:25:131 hour, 25 minutes, 13 secondsI was thinking it's hard to ascribe a causal arrow one way or the other, but there are some certain there are certain cases where we
1:25:211 hour, 25 minutes, 21 secondscan definitely see a through line from like a sci-fi trope all the way to the person's um report.
1:25:281 hour, 25 minutes, 28 secondsOther times it's much more duse or problematic to ascribe like a definitive causal link. Yeah,
1:25:371 hour, 25 minutes, 37 secondsit's funny when Well, I was just gonna and I don't mean to pick one controversial case out, but it's kind of hard not to. When you look at something
1:25:441 hour, 25 minutes, 44 secondslike the Lazar story, here's a story where there is actually zero evidence for him being out at Area 514.
1:25:541 hour, 25 minutes, 54 secondsZero.
1:25:551 hour, 25 minutes, 55 secondsThe [snorts] the entire story is built about around him allegedly working at a place 700 miles away. not in any way
1:26:051 hour, 26 minutes, 5 secondsconnected other than through other stories, right?
1:26:091 hour, 26 minutes, 9 secondsThat you know if he met Edward Teller or whoever it was, if he if he worked for EG&G or whatever company it was, if he
1:26:171 hour, 26 minutes, 17 secondsworked you know on on nuclear accelerators or had a rocket car or none of that has any connection at all to to the sport model, [laughter] right?
1:26:291 hour, 26 minutes, 29 secondsAnd and yet that is what gets talked about. Well, he was educated here. He was he that's because the initial people that were conducting the investigation
1:26:381 hour, 26 minutes, 38 secondsthey may have had um the their heart might have been in the right place but good old Stan Freriedman when he was asking questions about education and
1:26:461 hour, 26 minutes, 46 secondsstuff it was actually not relevant it it made no connection there's some relevancy in the sense of truthfulness
1:26:531 hour, 26 minutes, 53 secondsdon't get me wrong there there's a lot of cred credibility problems but when when we're talking about these claims and then the only evidence that we can
1:27:011 hour, 27 minutes, 1 secondgo to is Do we find this person credible? We've lost the plot. Yeah. Right there. Yeah. Yeah.
1:27:101 hour, 27 minutes, 10 secondsThat's my two cents.
1:27:121 hour, 27 minutes, 12 secondsFair. Fair. Yeah. And I think um you you pulled an example, Lazar, but I think nearly every [clears throat] the more is
1:27:201 hour, 27 minutes, 20 secondsknown about a UFO incident, the more issues there often are with it, right? The more details we get.
1:27:261 hour, 27 minutes, 26 secondsUm yeah, Lazar, we we could go into that or not. That's probably been Well, but I just I think we mentioned this maybe
1:27:341 hour, 27 minutes, 34 secondseven last episode, but reminds me of Diana Pulka recently. She she was some appearance, of course, she's got on somewhere where she was talking about a
1:27:431 hour, 27 minutes, 43 secondsnun in Spain who was witnessed and uh flew across the country and it was corroborated by multiple witnesses. And to me, there's coming back again to some
1:27:511 hour, 27 minutes, 51 secondscognitive dissonance of unless you're telling me flying nuns are objectively inaccurate real physical phenomenon, then that's a demonstration that
1:28:001 hour, 28 minutesmultiple witnesses can allegedly corroborate something that didn't happen. Right. Unless, again, you know, we're 1994 Zimbabwe.
1:28:081 hour, 28 minutes, 8 secondsYeah. Right. There you go. Absolutely. Yeah.
1:28:101 hour, 28 minutes, 10 secondsI'm I'm probably on camera at some point, embarrassingly enough, 10 years ago, saying these exact words. If any
1:28:171 hour, 28 minutes, 17 secondscase is real, it might be that case, right? I I was so convinced, not that it definitely happened, but I thought if
1:28:251 hour, 28 minutes, 25 secondsany case was legitimate, it must be that because of the the fact that there were so many witnesses and they were so
1:28:331 hour, 28 minutes, 33 secondsconvinced. But when you really dig down into it, there is not so many witnesses,
1:28:401 hour, 28 minutes, 40 secondsthere are not so many witnesses, that number reduces dramatically. And then when you start digging into the accounts and you you look at those interviews
1:28:491 hour, 28 minutes, 49 secondsthat were done and the way those interviews were done. Oh yeah.
1:28:511 hour, 28 minutes, 51 secondsAnd the story that is being painted in these poor children's minds. What I see is child abuse.
1:28:581 hour, 28 minutes, 58 secondsAnd and now you've got adults who who were the children then that would look at a guy like me and be bloody angry.
1:29:051 hour, 29 minutes, 5 secondsAnd I don't blame them because I believe and I and I say this with absolutely nothing but respect to those people that were children then is that I I honestly
1:29:141 hour, 29 minutes, 14 secondsbelieve that what happened to them was a bloody crime. I do and I and I see that all over Euphology.
1:29:231 hour, 29 minutes, 23 secondsDo you think that the Zimbabwe the aerial case there's another alternative or complimentary explanation for it
1:29:291 hour, 29 minutes, 29 secondswhich is um and David Halprren has talked about this. is a um professor of religious studies. Um he wrote a book
1:29:381 hour, 29 minutes, 38 secondsabout UFOs and sort of these kind of subterranean or unconscious connections, right? So he was speculating that the
1:29:471 hour, 29 minutes, 47 secondsaerial case might have to do with like bonding and you reminded me of that Rocky because you were saying that you know sometimes maybe especially men they
1:29:561 hour, 29 minutes, 56 secondssort of get together and they talk about UFOs and it's sort of like a bonding Yeah.
1:30:001 hour, 30 minutesyou know experience. But what if children do that as well? And if we look at the context of when that happened, it was like Zimbabwe used to be Rhdesia,
1:30:101 hour, 30 minutes, 10 secondsright? So it was a white minority state and then it became black majority rule, but like race relations were breaking down again. And what [snorts] if like
1:30:181 hour, 30 minutes, 18 secondsthe children could have been sort of using the UFO or alien trope to sort of
1:30:251 hour, 30 minutes, 25 secondsresist that breakdown in, you know what I mean? Sort of something like that. not consciously expressed but still expressed through through the alien motif.
1:30:341 hour, 30 minutes, 34 secondsThere's also um there there is a ton of evidence that in that in that culture of that country and that area that there's
1:30:421 hour, 30 minutes, 42 secondsthere is quite a bit of um these kinds of stories not necessarily about aliens but different types of creatures and monsters. A lot of cultures have this. I'm not picking on
1:30:501 hour, 30 minutes, 50 secondsZimbabwe but I'll tell you something that I witnessed personally and they real quick just to piggyback off that. They specifically discussed
1:30:581 hour, 30 minutes, 58 secondsUFOs and aliens in this school just before this sighting had happened. It was actually part of their lessons.
1:31:051 hour, 31 minutes, 5 secondsYeah, that's exactly right. And when I There was there was a UFO wave going on at the time in the area. It happened for Russian rocket.
1:31:141 hour, 31 minutes, 14 secondsYeah. Kicked off by a re-entry. Yep. And there would have been wide reports, UFO reports, um, reported on all kinds of
1:31:221 hour, 31 minutes, 22 secondsmedia that these kids would have had or heard about or heard people talking about.
1:31:281 hour, 31 minutes, 28 secondsI highly recommend people got to go read Gideon Reed.
1:31:331 hour, 31 minutes, 33 secondsGideon Reed dug up all this stuff. He dug up uh like UFO stuff that was in the news like in the TV like before the
1:31:401 hour, 31 minutes, 40 secondsincident that the kids would have seen just like old newspaper articles that like they would have been exposed to.
1:31:461 hour, 31 minutes, 46 secondsHe's done a lot of lot of great research on the aerial case.
1:31:491 hour, 31 minutes, 49 secondsAnother thing that he presented also was um things that that that go on. It's like a it's a kind of like a UK thing, a
1:31:561 hour, 31 minutes, 56 secondsBritish thing. And a lot of these kids at the school were were British. Um, but it's in elementary schools and they have
1:32:041 hour, 32 minutes, 4 secondskids they basically fake a UFO landing at the school and they ask kids to like describe it and stuff and it's like a
1:32:121 hour, 32 minutes, 12 secondslearning experience and it's a it's a thing that it's pretty widespread. In fact, he had gone through this, you know, when he was a kid and he did a
1:32:201 hour, 32 minutes, 20 secondswrite up about it and it's really interesting. Like I had never heard of it obviously being in America. Um, but it's pretty wild that that, you know, is
1:32:271 hour, 32 minutes, 27 secondssomething that happened. So, um, and it's been going on. I forgot about that. Yeah, I forgot about that.
1:32:341 hour, 32 minutes, 34 secondsInterestingly, you know, when I was, um, I don't know, 8 years old or something.
1:32:381 hour, 32 minutes, 38 secondsI was in a little elementary school that I'm only realizing in this moment, it's kind of similar. We we were a very rural
1:32:451 hour, 32 minutes, 45 secondscommunity. Um, this was here here on the west coast, but very very rural. There was only 115 kids in our school, I
1:32:521 hour, 32 minutes, 52 secondsbelieve. And one morning at recess, you know, 10:00 recess, um, some kids think, and it's close to Halloween, it's
1:33:001 hour, 33 minutesprobably the week of Halloween. They think they've seen a ghost in the library.
1:33:041 hour, 33 minutes, 4 secondsAnd and by 10:15, 90% of the kids in the school were running around as a group freaked out,
1:33:121 hour, 33 minutes, 12 secondsright? [clears throat] Thinking they saw a ghost in the library. And it's so I I'm I'm realizing this as we're having this conversation, but it's it's like, yeah, that happened. I saw that. Now,
1:33:211 hour, 33 minutes, 21 secondsnow the teachers were grounded enough at that time to end that belief hopefully by the end of the school day or something, right?
1:33:291 hour, 33 minutes, 29 secondsAnd so it so you know they didn't call the British press and we didn't have a a ghost investigator show up to encourage the belief. It ended, right? But I
1:33:381 hour, 33 minutes, 38 secondsremember that very clearly that that happened and and the kids were extremely excited. But I wasn't one of the kids in the library, so I didn't get to see the
1:33:451 hour, 33 minutes, 45 secondsimaginary ghost. But the point is is that um I do remember the excitement and I can certainly see that happening. And
1:33:521 hour, 33 minutes, 52 secondsnow if that's fed a little bit, somebody stokes that fire a little bit like an adult coming along going, "Yeah, ghosts are real." Draw me a picture of this
1:34:011 hour, 34 minutes, 1 secondghost, you know, and then encourage kids to draw the ghost a very specific way.
1:34:071 hour, 34 minutes, 7 secondsYeah. Um, my god, by the time they're 40, they're going to definitely think they were um part of Ghostbusters. Yeah.
1:34:131 hour, 34 minutes, 13 secondsWell, the order again, the order of operations there or having these these kids draw these photo these these pictures in
1:34:211 hour, 34 minutes, 21 secondsgroups, I think, and and you know, terrible.
1:34:231 hour, 34 minutes, 23 secondsYeah. It it's it's almost, you know, could they not have seen that even without a great understanding of a scientific method, right? Just could did
1:34:321 hour, 34 minutes, 32 secondsthey not care? Did they not foresee that that exposing the kids to teach other stories would be problematic? But yeah, I do wonder if the long-term impact on those kids.
1:34:411 hour, 34 minutes, 41 secondsYeah. So do I. Yeah.
1:34:431 hour, 34 minutes, 43 secondsThey were either completely incompetent um or downright deceitful. Either one isn't a very good option in my opinion.
1:34:511 hour, 34 minutes, 51 secondsYeah. Yeah. I agree with that. I think that's the basic two options.
1:34:561 hour, 34 minutes, 56 secondsYeah. And and with a with a UFO sighting as opposed to a a ghost event in some of these school cases like Westall, you
1:35:041 hour, 35 minutes, 4 secondsknow, you actually have like the teachers that also claim to have seen something. But with a UFO sighting, there's usually a stimulus. So like if a kid sees something that he interprets as
1:35:121 hour, 35 minutes, 12 secondsa UFO, you know, there may be some light over there, the teacher goes out, they also see the light. And so that can keep the story going. Whereas if it was just
1:35:201 hour, 35 minutes, 20 secondsa ghost, like the teacher's not going to see a ghost. is you know behind every UFO sighting there's usually at least a real stimulus maybe something prosaic
1:35:281 hour, 35 minutes, 28 secondsand the how something becomes a UFO sighting in the first place somebody interprets that sighting they have the kind of like the prethought that it
1:35:351 hour, 35 minutes, 35 secondscould be a UFO so they interpret that stimulus in a way that it becomes a UFO sighting west um was in 1966 right and what's
1:35:441 hour, 35 minutes, 44 secondswhat what's fascinating about that and Americans will have a hard time probably truly getting this but as a Canadian and
1:35:521 hour, 35 minutes, 52 secondsI can relate to the Australians in that our militaries are exceptionally small.
1:35:571 hour, 35 minutes, 57 secondsAnd um the idea that the Australians or the Canadians at that time uh militaries our size would have a rapid reaction
1:36:041 hour, 36 minutes, 4 secondsunit ready to spring into action um to grab any object from anywhere any time.
1:36:111 hour, 36 minutes, 11 secondsIt is laughable, right? But but the Australians did. They responded rather rapidly. So that tells me that this
1:36:191 hour, 36 minutes, 19 secondswasn't some random aliens visiting the Earth thing. The Australian military was doing something. They were they were uh
1:36:271 hour, 36 minutes, 27 secondsexpressly involved in something and they were prepared to react to to maneuver uh troops to recover something or or
1:36:341 hour, 36 minutes, 34 secondswhatever. Um at that time it's just it seemed super obvious to me that the military did something. People saw something they weren't supposed to see
1:36:421 hour, 36 minutes, 42 secondsand it was probably you know like a a drone or an airplane or something, right? I think it was a NASA balloon.
1:36:491 hour, 36 minutes, 49 secondsI think it's been reasonably damaged. A pieball balloon is what I think it's been demonstrated as. Yeah. Interesting.
1:36:541 hour, 36 minutes, 54 secondsThat would that would have been a scandal if imagine if so it was probably a NASA balloon but Australia's CSRO which is like the scientific um
1:37:031 hour, 37 minutes, 3 secondsinstitution funded by the government there was was involved in those balloon tests and um can you imagine like the scandal that would have ensued if like
1:37:121 hour, 37 minutes, 12 secondsone of those balloons had crashed and killed a child. Right. Right.
1:37:151 hour, 37 minutes, 15 secondsIt would have been an international incident. So, it's entirely understandable that they try to hush that up.
1:37:231 hour, 37 minutes, 23 secondsYeah, absolutely. There's there's a number of those types of incidents. You know, it's interesting. Um you'll hear Dolan and other people talk about, you know, they've got crash retrieval teams.
1:37:311 hour, 37 minutes, 31 secondsWell, yeah, no [ __ ] There's crash retrieval teams. I have real aircraft that when they go down, you definitely want to recover your pilots and your goodies, right? You you don't want to
1:37:391 hour, 37 minutes, 39 secondslet, for example, crypto equipment. I'll tell you how serious we take crypto equipment in the in the armed forces.
1:37:451 hour, 37 minutes, 45 secondsThis is going back a ways, but probably 25 years ago, I was in the field. I was I started my career in the army and I later transferred to the Air Force. But
1:37:521 hour, 37 minutes, 52 secondswhen I was in the army, we were we were just on a regular maneuver exercise in a place called CFB Wayright in Alberta and
1:38:011 hour, 38 minutes, 1 seconda big tank maneuver area. and a a single soldier dropped a part like a cable that
1:38:091 hour, 38 minutes, 9 secondsattaches to a a classified crypto device that that is taken so seriously that they stopped they stopped the entire
1:38:181 hour, 38 minutes, 18 secondsexercise where there was like 5,000 troops on this exercise. They stopped everything. Every vehicle stopped driving. Nobody was allowed to move.
1:38:241 hour, 38 minutes, 24 secondsThey got everybody out on foot. We literally formed extended lines and started walking and we found that device that was just for the cable. So that was just for a cable. Wow.
1:38:331 hour, 38 minutes, 33 secondsYep. Absolutely. A little cable about five inches long. Yep.
1:38:401 hour, 38 minutes, 40 secondsYeah. And obviously we're going to try and collect any type of um crashed adversarial satellites, stuff like that. Anything anything we can.
1:38:491 hour, 38 minutes, 49 seconds1978 Northern Canada when that Russian satellite came down. Look at that.
1:38:531 hour, 38 minutes, 53 secondsThat's called Operation Operation Morning Light.
1:38:561 hour, 38 minutes, 56 secondsThe America American military sent up a nuclear emergency response team. the Canadian Airborne Regiment um flew up there, maybe even jumped in, I can't
1:39:041 hour, 39 minutes, 4 secondsremember. And um one of my uncles was on that exercise or exercise on that operation. And I talked to him in detail about it and I've read about it. It's
1:39:111 hour, 39 minutes, 11 secondsincredible. We had uh approximately 5,000 troops there almost immediately to try to gather up the fragments of this downrussian satellite.
1:39:221 hour, 39 minutes, 22 secondsAmazing. I have a I have a post on that case.
1:39:251 hour, 39 minutes, 25 secondsYeah. They had to cover over 48,000 square miles. a joint Canadian US team, including the a nest team from the US,
1:39:331 hour, 39 minutes, 33 secondsswept the area by foot for uh basically all the way until October. Yeah. And this happened in January.
1:39:401 hour, 39 minutes, 40 secondsAnd the bulk of it was found the bulk of it was found two months later by some hikers or something like that. Isn't that right?
1:39:461 hour, 39 minutes, 46 secondsYeah. They found 12 large 12 large pieces of it and 10 10 of those large pieces they found were still radioactive.
1:39:531 hour, 39 minutes, 53 secondsYeah. So, you know, when we have to recover stuff, we do. But this idea that
1:40:001 hour, 40 minutesum you know aliens show up and we we're just ready to to move on that that's not real. What is real is when we have our
1:40:081 hour, 40 minutes, 8 secondsown stuff crash or a known a known object coming in. We're we're pretty good about recovering stuff that way.
1:40:161 hour, 40 minutes, 16 secondsBut um I mean what do they think the foreign technology division was that basically Blue Book was ran out of? you know, the whole is we we recover like Soviet
1:40:261 hour, 40 minutes, 26 secondsplanes and other countries tech, you know, and reverse it and look at it and see what they've got going on.
1:40:311 hour, 40 minutes, 31 secondsWe've been doing that since we were um cavemen collecting sticks, right? Stealing the other tribes stuff, right?
1:40:391 hour, 40 minutes, 39 seconds[laughter] It's it's what we do.
1:40:431 hour, 40 minutes, 43 secondsYep. By the way, does anybody know since we were talking about Ariel, I know that John Mack was a big player in that saga
1:40:511 hour, 40 minutes, 51 secondsand, you know, did some, you know, uh, when he was interviewing the kids, uh, probably led them on, right? Was asking leading questions.
1:41:011 hour, 41 minutes, 1 secondUm, does anyone know if he was was he what's called a fellow traveler?
1:41:071 hour, 41 minutes, 7 secondsSo, that is term. Oh, that's like somebody who kind of is sympathetic to socialism or communism. And this was a
1:41:151 hour, 41 minutes, 15 secondsterm that was used during the cold war for people who kind of visited those countries and like kind of admired them as like an alternative to western capitalism and
1:41:241 hour, 41 minutes, 24 secondsand so on because I just read in a book called Political Pilgrims by Paul Hollander um
1:41:311 hour, 41 minutes, 31 secondsgoes into the history of that whole thing. Um Mac was like momentarily mentioned. So it says, "As far as
1:41:391 hour, 41 minutes, 39 secondsChernobyl was concerned, it may be worth noting that American peace activist quote unquote John Mack, MD, professor
1:41:461 hour, 41 minutes, 46 secondsof psychiatry at Harvard Medical School, managed to find a benign interpretation for the withholding of information
1:41:531 hour, 41 minutes, 53 secondsabout the disaster as part of the quote tendency on the part of Soviet authorities to downplay catastrophes and
1:42:011 hour, 42 minutes, 1 secondinstead offer reassurance to the Soviet people so as to prevent emotional distress." close quote. This was the same Professor
1:42:101 hour, 42 minutes, 10 secondsMack who more recently expressed his belief in ET visitors harassing American women. Perhaps his assessments of the therapeutic value of Soviet censorship
1:42:191 hour, 42 minutes, 19 secondsprepared him to subscribe to his belief in visitors from outer space. It's interesting. It's very interesting.
1:42:271 hour, 42 minutes, 27 secondsThat whole John Mack Institute is a funny organization. You know, if you start looking at the way that they held
1:42:331 hour, 42 minutes, 33 secondson to certain clips and stuff from the Zimbabwe incident, um it it feels like a very
1:42:421 hour, 42 minutes, 42 secondscontrolled effort to to spin a narrative. Very culty feeling.
1:42:471 hour, 42 minutes, 47 secondsThey won't they won't allow researchers to see like transcripts of the interviews they did with the children.
1:42:521 hour, 42 minutes, 52 secondsAnd like I know like Gideon have been trying to get stuff out of them for a while now and they just they won't share that stuff because that would go against the narrative, you know, that's being told.
1:43:021 hour, 43 minutes, 2 secondsI phoned Randall Nickerson once in 2012 approximately. And we started chatting and I didn't know anything about Randall
1:43:101 hour, 43 minutes, 10 secondsNickerson. I just knew that he was a guy that was going to do a documentary on the topic. And I thought, "Wow, that's really fascinating." And um I phoned him
1:43:181 hour, 43 minutes, 18 secondsup and I said um I think I think I might have said this in an email. It was either an email or phone call and I said, "Look, I'm not I'm not some crazy guy. I don't believe in alien abductions
1:43:261 hour, 43 minutes, 26 secondsor, you know, all this kind of horseshit." I never heard from him ever again. [laughter] So, I didn't realize that he himself was on the Oprah Winfrey
1:43:341 hour, 43 minutes, 34 secondsprogram talking about his entire family being abducted by aliens and, [laughter] you know, Right. Right.
1:43:391 hour, 43 minutes, 39 secondsand and [snorts] and I don't mean to make fun of him. I'm just saying that I had no idea. And um so when you're
1:43:461 hour, 43 minutes, 46 secondsagain there's a guy who comes across he's extremely humble um and intelligent and yet there's something there and that
1:43:541 hour, 43 minutes, 54 secondssomething there is that he has a very strong belief um about these situations.
1:44:001 hour, 44 minutesHe he believes he met aliens and spent time with them and um you know against his will and I don't know what caused that belief and
1:44:081 hour, 44 minutes, 8 secondsand I don't I have no idea but um when when a documentarian is making a a film about other people that that um have
1:44:171 hour, 44 minutes, 17 secondsbeen sort of force-fed this belief at the fire hose, the objectivity thing again seems to fall away pretty quickly.
1:44:241 hour, 44 minutes, 24 secondsBut I Speaking of speaking of people you might not expect to have weird beliefs. I'll kind of tease one of my uh UFO Darth Vader John Alexander stories when I met
1:44:321 hour, 44 minutes, 32 secondshim once. A he told me the UFO the Bigfoot climbing out of a portal story over dinner which is like what?
1:44:401 hour, 44 minutes, 40 secondsSecond, but secondly, um, uh, John John Alexander, I think, and his wife after the, uh, the proceedings at the
1:44:471 hour, 44 minutes, 47 secondsconference of the day went back to the room and participated in past life regressions with each other or other people or just again, right? Yeah. Just
1:44:561 hour, 44 minutes, 56 secondskind of going back to people that have weird beliefs.
1:44:591 hour, 44 minutes, 59 secondsThey often have a lot of weird beliefs, right?
1:45:021 hour, 45 minutes, 2 secondsThey Yeah. Right. back to the esoteric and and the you know dis disembodied hands floating through the air all that
1:45:091 hour, 45 minutes, 9 secondsstuff. It's um man yeah there needs to be a really good study on this stuff.
1:45:141 hour, 45 minutes, 14 secondsSomebody mentioned a um one of these academics um Pulka what's her name? Um
1:45:211 hour, 45 minutes, 21 secondsDiana Pulka yeah Diana yeah you know interesting when I first listened to her I was already leading the the cult so to speak
1:45:301 hour, 45 minutes, 30 secondsmyself and I missed it. I missed what she was doing. I thought again, hey, there's there's somebody who's actually a skeptic and they're being objective.
1:45:401 hour, 45 minutes, 40 secondsAnd it's funny cuz here I am 3, four years later looking at what she's saying. I'm like, oh, oh my god. Right.
1:45:441 hour, 45 minutes, 44 secondsShe's selling it, right? She's she's out there. At least that's my my take on it is that she is actually selling this stuff strong. Am I wrong about that?
1:45:561 hour, 45 minutes, 56 seconds[sighs]
1:45:571 hour, 45 minutes, 57 secondsShe is. Uh I think we could say a lot about Diana Pulka. I don't know. you. Some of you guys might have more immediate thoughts, but
1:46:061 hour, 46 minutes, 6 secondsit's sort of it seems to be like this menagerie of beliefs that she has. It's not clear exactly what she believes, but other than that, she believes that there's something quote unquote going
1:46:141 hour, 46 minutes, 14 secondson, something outside of human perception or comprehension. And she invites all kinds of
1:46:221 hour, 46 minutes, 22 secondsshe invites and this is problematic as well because she kind of uh encourages belief um and kind of solicits people to
1:46:321 hour, 46 minutes, 32 secondscome and tell her stories but then she doesn't really try to scientifically pass out like what is actually
1:46:391 hour, 46 minutes, 39 secondsmost likely to be what's going on. She just kind of takes everything at face value. Right. Yeah.
1:46:441 hour, 46 minutes, 44 secondsSo it's like a subjective immediate experience is valid. But then like she kind of takes that to mean everything is
1:46:521 hour, 46 minutes, 52 secondsequally valid, right? Everything is right up for grabs. But you know, she's got some interesting takes.
1:47:001 hour, 47 minutesUm, but just just it's just like the pluralism of her.
1:47:071 hour, 47 minutes, 7 secondsI don't know what you call it even. It's it's really kind of a bit weird as well because she's she's an academic, but it's it's not clear what she actually
1:47:161 hour, 47 minutes, 16 secondsthinks. I only brought her up because it wasn't wasn't to um I wasn't trying to throw shade on her or anything. I was I brought her up because she is a very
1:47:231 hour, 47 minutes, 23 secondsconvincing person. She's an academic and and um and and you know to people like me that there's certain aspects of that that can be convincing and and it was it
1:47:311 hour, 47 minutes, 31 secondswas like again I wasn't armed with the the faculties to totally see that right away. And I'm not saying that she's doing this deliberately. I'm saying that
1:47:391 hour, 47 minutes, 39 secondsthat basically what you're saying that there seems to be a level of belief there herself and with her um academic
1:47:471 hour, 47 minutes, 47 secondsbackground and her ability to speak using words that I haven't even read yet. Um it can come across extremely
1:47:541 hour, 47 minutes, 54 secondsconvincing. Right. So to me to me I have never heard someone that can say so many words without
1:48:031 hour, 48 minutes, 3 secondsmaking a point in my entire freaking life. She is completely incomprehensible to me. She's basically Do you remember
1:48:111 hour, 48 minutes, 11 secondsthe teacher from Charlie Brown that doesn't actually say words? She's like like she is literally the embodiment of the Charlie Brown teacher.
1:48:191 hour, 48 minutes, 19 secondsI'll say I'll say she does seem seem like she needs to take her aderall sometimes. She just kind of bouncing everywhere. But okay.
1:48:261 hour, 48 minutes, 26 secondsYeah. I I mean I think interestingly though that that kind of going back again to maybe this idea that there there's you know even for an academic
1:48:341 hour, 48 minutes, 34 secondsthere's this ego that I'm going to find out something super secret and I'm a part of this now the spy versus spy game too or you know and it's
1:48:411 hour, 48 minutes, 41 secondsh she seemed like she was kind of groomed as well by some of these insider sources of hers that convinced her of all this nonsense.
1:48:501 hour, 48 minutes, 50 secondsBang on. Yeah, there's a there's it's interesting. There was um what was his name? Eric Weinstein, I think it is, he
1:48:571 hour, 48 minutes, 57 secondstalked about how someone approached him and said, you know, you're you're very important. You you're we're going to need you. You know, you can connect with
1:49:061 hour, 49 minutes, 6 secondsthe the public and yada. And I'm like, "Oh my god, I know who told him that." Like, that's that is obvious who who this was. He didn't have to say the name
1:49:141 hour, 49 minutes, 14 secondsbecause I heard those same words spoken to me and so did Jeremy McGowan and so did um I don't know his name. Lou Angel.
1:49:221 hour, 49 minutes, 22 secondsIs that his name? Does No, Lou Alzando. That's That's who you're talking about.
1:49:261 hour, 49 minutes, 26 secondsHe's talking about had the experience with with Okay.
1:49:301 hour, 49 minutes, 30 secondsGotcha. Yeah. It was a joke. It was a joke. Oh, gotcha. Okay.
1:49:341 hour, 49 minutes, 34 secondsYeah. I spoke to him once or twice, but he um he had a very similar experience, much I think more intense than mine, but he he and others and and Jeremy McGawan
1:49:421 hour, 49 minutes, 42 secondsand and other people that were fed that exact same thing. And so if somebody like um Miss Miss Pulko was um uh
1:49:501 hour, 49 minutes, 50 secondsbrought in like that, I wouldn't doubt it because like someone said earlier, it may be the more academic, more educated
1:49:571 hour, 49 minutes, 57 secondsthat are maybe easier to to to hammer with this because uh like Eric Weinston and others, they start um potentially
1:50:061 hour, 50 minutes, 6 secondsbelieving that that uh ego stroking that they got. You're going to be a hero for Euphology one day. You know, you're going to be well known. And I I knew
1:50:151 hour, 50 minutes, 15 secondsI knew that that um I didn't go to university and that that I'm a guy that still sweeps his own driveway, right?
1:50:211 hour, 50 minutes, 21 secondsLike like that that I wasn't going to be someone's hero, but maybe if I was a little bit more successful, I might have um I might have fallen for that.
1:50:311 hour, 50 minutes, 31 secondsWell, they had this they've had this all planned out basically at least 15 years. There's a document from the either the OAP era or
1:50:401 hour, 50 minutes, 40 secondsmaybe it was even Kona Blue maybe Louise members where they actually talk about their disclosure plan and how they would bring in certain people you know to help
1:50:481 hour, 50 minutes, 48 secondsspread the message and they lay it all out step by step and this is from back like I said it was either the OAP or part of the stuff that when they were
1:50:561 hour, 50 minutes, 56 secondstrying to launch Kona blue one of the two but they laid out this whole narrative and they basically enacted it they brought in these other people to help support it and
1:51:041 hour, 51 minutes, 4 secondskind of reminds me of what Scientology intent did with with actors and such, you know, right? So, this whole roll out,
1:51:111 hour, 51 minutes, 11 secondsthere's an entire um OSAP slide about about this like basically the layout and the plan of attack and you know, first
1:51:181 hour, 51 minutes, 18 secondsit's this group and then this is the plan. Can you hear me? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
1:51:261 hour, 51 minutes, 26 secondsyou know, just what Jeff was talking about, like there was there's an actual like slide um like a presentation slide that lists like you know, a plan of
1:51:341 hour, 51 minutes, 34 secondsattack basically and like um first there's [snorts] media kind of like grassroots support and then you know working your way up from there engaging
1:51:431 hour, 51 minutes, 43 secondsum Congress and legislation and it's all advocacy, you know, only on the promotion side of it being something
1:51:511 hour, 51 minutes, 51 secondsmysterious, right? It's not advocacy to take a look at it objectively, right?
1:51:561 hour, 51 minutes, 56 secondsIt's an advocacy for a certain perspective on what supposedly all this even means. But it's it all start disclosure starts with
1:52:041 hour, 52 minutes, 4 secondsthe assumption that the government already has the answers and we just got to and again back to that idea like if there's no good evidence that we have so hopefully they do or else there's not
1:52:121 hour, 52 minutes, 12 secondsany right you know it's right. Um, and the thing about that slide, I think the government, the government in the general sense is in a
1:52:201 hour, 52 minutes, 20 secondsreally tough spot, right? Like they they don't have anything, let's say. I mean, I'm assuming they don't. And if they don't, they'll never they how how do they prove?
1:52:291 hour, 52 minutes, 29 secondsYeah.
1:52:291 hour, 52 minutes, 29 secondsRight. And you know I I when I talked to friends of mine uh let's say guys at NORAD one of the questions I asked just
1:52:361 hour, 52 minutes, 36 secondsin general idle curiosity once was um um did you ever detect anything that gave you um you know some sort of thought
1:52:461 hour, 52 minutes, 46 secondsthat maybe this this thing we're detecting is not from here. And the answer was no absolutely not.
1:52:521 hour, 52 minutes, 52 secondsLike like nothing. We've never we've never once had this kind of moment where we're like, "Oh my god, it's it's always like they they have so much technology
1:53:021 hour, 53 minutes, 2 secondsgoing on at NORAD that when it came to Tic Tac, for example, they're like, "Yeah, we we know where that parks at night." Like they weren't they weren't
1:53:091 hour, 53 minutes, 9 secondseven like NORAD didn't send up anybody uh during the Tic Tac thing because training exercise, you know, in a known
1:53:161 hour, 53 minutes, 16 secondsarea where missiles are tested, in an area where drones are tested. and Norad's like, you know, like non-event, right? Right.
1:53:251 hour, 53 minutes, 25 secondsSo, yeah. Yeah.
1:53:281 hour, 53 minutes, 28 secondsI didn't hear anything Steve said, so I don't know. Somehow I I could hear everybody but Steve. Try it again, Steve. Oh, okay. Can you hear me now?
1:53:371 hour, 53 minutes, 37 secondsNot a thing. Interesting. Weird. Yeah. Yeah, I can hear him. That is weird.
1:53:411 hour, 53 minutes, 41 secondsOh, everybody else can hear me, just not right. Okay, I think so.
1:53:451 hour, 53 minutes, 45 secondsInteresting. Well, kind of getting towards uh starting to wrap up. You guys, you have uh other stuff you want to hit on before we before we close out.
1:53:541 hour, 53 minutes, 54 secondsI want to say I really appreciate Rocky coming on and sharing his his story.
1:53:581 hour, 53 minutes, 58 secondsSorry, I just saw your reply to my my post on I hope I didn't uh didn't ambush you there, Rocky. I appreciate you coming on.
1:54:051 hour, 54 minutes, 5 secondsYou're always welcome, man. So, thanks. I I really appreciate this. I've um I've long wanted and I don't know if I deserve it, but I I've long wanted to
1:54:121 hour, 54 minutes, 12 secondshave serious conversations with with uh intelligent people in a in a calm manner like this on this topic because I I'm
1:54:211 hour, 54 minutes, 21 secondsnot out here saying that it's not possible or anything or that it's all [ __ ] or you know, I I have no idea, but it's it's such a pleasure. Um and
1:54:291 hour, 54 minutes, 29 secondsbut thank you so much h having been here. One last thing I would say to you guys, all of you, is um uh today was se
1:54:361 hour, 54 minutes, 36 secondsSeptember 11th and and I just wanted to say that um even though there's a lot of political turmoil and [ __ ] going on out there, um I still love you guys as
1:54:431 hour, 54 minutes, 43 secondsAmericans and and um would do anything for you. So, it's it's a it's an honor and a pleasure to to get to know you.
1:54:501 hour, 54 minutes, 50 secondsHey, thanks, man. Thank you're always welcome. We uh we we typically do this every other week on Friday around the same time. So, uh, you know, keep in
1:54:571 hour, 54 minutes, 57 secondstouch and we'll we'll see you guys, uh, next time around. Right on. All right. Have a good night, you guys. Yeah. Have a good weekend, everybody.