It just went flying by right by his truck at absolutely phenomenal speed with all these smaller objects inside
0:07
7 seconds
[music] it and then disappeared out over the horizon. There is some some powerful compelling classified
0:14
14 seconds
information as well uh which we're trying to get released. There does seem to be a hand that's been working behind the scenes [music] to to withhold a lot of information.
0:32
32 seconds
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Chapter 2: Intro
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listeners get 20% off of their first order with code unveiled. So, head to moo.com, browse their amazing selection of functional gummies, and find the
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perfect gummy for whatever you're dealing with. Hello everybody, welcome to Unveiled. I am your host, Rob, and with me today is Christopher Melon. He
1:17
1 minute, 17 seconds
has spent nearly 20 years in the United States intelligence community, served as the deputy assistant secretary of defense for intelligence as well as
1:26
1 minute, 26 seconds
staff director of the Senate Intelligence Committee and he's also the uh chairman of the board of the Disclosure Foundation. So very experienced. Chris, you've been at the
1:35
1 minute, 35 seconds
forefront of the disclosure movement for a very long time and I'm I'm very happy to speak with you today. Thank you for joining with me.
Chapter 3: Why Christopher Mellon believes “we are not alone”
1:42
1 minute, 42 seconds
It's a pleasure to be here. Thanks so much.
1:44
1 minute, 44 seconds
So let's just jump right into it. You've stated pretty plainly that we are not alone. What is the most compelling evidence that you can give somebody
1:52
1 minute, 52 seconds
who's unfamiliar with this topic that takes them from unidentified phenomena all the way to non-human intelligence is the most likely explanation for this?
2:03
2 minutes, 3 seconds
Well, if they have time to read a couple of books, there are several books I'd recommend. And I think Robert Powell's got a very good book that came out
2:11
2 minutes, 11 seconds
recently, what science knows and doesn't know about UAP.
2:15
2 minutes, 15 seconds
Um, I think Richard Dolan's old book, uh, UFOs in the National Security State
2:22
2 minutes, 22 seconds
is a very good one. Uh, UFOs and nukes by Hastings is a very good one. There are a number of books that are important
2:31
2 minutes, 31 seconds
for helping people understand and scientists typically don't bother with this and that's one of the the problems and some of the discussions within the
2:40
2 minutes, 40 seconds
larger community is that some people have a handle on the history and others don't and understanding that history and the
2:48
2 minutes, 48 seconds
depth of it and the number the cumulative number of events is overwhelming uh whether it's you know July 52 and the
2:57
2 minutes, 57 seconds
overflights of the capital or the hundreds and hundreds of other incidents that occur occurred that year or it was
3:06
3 minutes, 6 seconds
thousands I think in total but I I [clears throat] think it's very important to understand the cumulative history and that to me is extremely
3:14
3 minutes, 14 seconds
compelling in and of itself in terms of specific cases I think that the uh
3:20
3 minutes, 20 seconds
Nimtts uh case is a great one that is probably the most single most powerful
3:27
3 minutes, 27 seconds
case in terms of the number of witnesses, the supplementary sensor data, the quality of the witnesses. Uh
3:36
3 minutes, 36 seconds
that's that's quite a uh quite a powerful case. And uh so I used
3:43
3 minutes, 43 seconds
that at the outset repeatedly. And when we first went to Capitol Hill, we brought in uh Commander Dave Fraver and
3:51
3 minutes, 51 seconds
Alex Dedric, some of the the naval personnel who had been involved in that incident.
3:57
3 minutes, 57 seconds
um to help speak with the senators because it was such a compelling incident. Of course, we also brought in other naval personnel from the east
4:04
4 minutes, 4 seconds
coast who had equally compelling uh stories uh from around 2015 and the
4:11
4 minutes, 11 seconds
deployment of the the Roosevelt and uh had had been encountering UAP on an almost daily basis off the east coast as
4:20
4 minutes, 20 seconds
well. Um so there there a lot of compelling incidents but I think probably the Nimmits
4:28
4 minutes, 28 seconds
stands a little a little head and shoulders perhaps above above the rest but uh it's also in terms of the
4:37
4 minutes, 37 seconds
information that has led me to that conclusion that a subset a fraction of these things really cannot be explained
4:46
4 minutes, 46 seconds
by reference to human technology. that has a lot to do with understanding the history of this phenomenon and events
4:53
4 minutes, 53 seconds
like the Sakoro uh event where the EV the uh Navy electronic warfare aircraft
5:00
5 minutes
that was followed for hours and got all kinds of readings on a UAP that was going around the craft for hours and
5:07
5 minutes, 7 seconds
emitting radar signals and so forth. So there there a lot of quality cases there that point in the same direction.
Chapter 4: Public evidence vs. classified UAP information
5:15
5 minutes, 15 seconds
So would you say that the majority of your conviction about this is inspired by information that is available
5:23
5 minutes, 23 seconds
publicly versus stuff that is classified?
5:27
5 minutes, 27 seconds
Well, I'm trying to reference things that are available publicly because the rest doesn't help the average viewer very much.
5:34
5 minutes, 34 seconds
But but that information is supplemented.
5:37
5 minutes, 37 seconds
Uh there there is some some powerful compelling classified information as well uh which we're
5:44
5 minutes, 44 seconds
trying to get released and um some of that information is uh is
Chapter 5: Alternative explanations, plasma balls and orbs
5:51
5 minutes, 51 seconds
difficult to explain by reference to any conventional technology.
5:56
5 minutes, 56 seconds
Have you ever explored any al alternative explanations for UAP that you've actually taken very seriously as a possibility?
6:05
6 minutes, 5 seconds
Well, there's a new one just out in the last few days about the uh uh plasma
6:12
6 minutes, 12 seconds
balls about the orbs that um Avi Lo just wrote about. And it's a hypothesis put
6:21
6 minutes, 21 seconds
forward by a I don't know if he's a meteorologist or a astrophysicist, but it has to do with charged particles that
6:29
6 minutes, 29 seconds
are remnants from meteors coming down and these particles forming together in a ball. That's uh
6:38
6 minutes, 38 seconds
a little hard for me to swallow. Um but it's certainly worth looking at. And I only say that because
6:46
6 minutes, 46 seconds
uh not that that I'm averse to atmospheric explanations for for anything, but
6:53
6 minutes, 53 seconds
you know, a lot of this is occurring in and around military facilities and research facilities and so forth. And I
7:02
7 minutes, 2 seconds
don't think there's a greater meteor fall in those areas. um they claim in the data that there's a very strong
7:09
7 minutes, 9 seconds
correlation and I I suspect there is but some of these things uh are showing up
7:15
7 minutes, 15 seconds
in places repeatedly that seem um a little bit hard to to fit into that
7:23
7 minutes, 23 seconds
theory. Some of them are also demonstrating what appears to be intelligence in terms of where they move and how they move. Um, I've heard of
7:31
7 minutes, 31 seconds
these uh uh plasma balls or orbs uh inside closed
7:39
7 minutes, 39 seconds
buildings in the aerospace community. I know of one case where that occurred.
7:44
7 minutes, 44 seconds
Um, a classified facility and the security cameras caught this thing on camera at night moving around the inside
7:51
7 minutes, 51 seconds
of the building. I don't know if that could happen uh inside a building as a result of a nearby meteor strike if
8:01
8 minutes, 1 second
there was one. Um so but it's good to have those kind of uh you know those kind of theories need to be examined
8:09
8 minutes, 9 seconds
along with everything else. It still wouldn't explain he he does suggest in some cases they could make a more of a lenticular shape like a flying saucer.
8:19
8 minutes, 19 seconds
It still would not explain a lot of things. You triangular craft uh with lights on them that are that have been
8:27
8 minutes, 27 seconds
seen and recorded since the 50s. I think a lot of the the daytime uh flying
8:33
8 minutes, 33 seconds
saucers of which there are hundreds of thousands of cases that uh don't appear to have
8:41
8 minutes, 41 seconds
been immediately uh following or a meteor strike or um have that kind of a
8:49
8 minutes, 49 seconds
spherical shape or giving off that kind of light. They don't fit with that pattern. Even if that did explain the orbs, there would still be a lot that remains unexplained.
9:00
9 minutes
Yeah. The idea of orbs, you know, floating inside buildings and stuff kind of um draws imagery about sort of paranormal phenomena. Do do you see a
Chapter 6: UAPs, the paranormal and the “hitchhiker effect”
9:09
9 minutes, 9 seconds
strong link between UAP phenomena and the sort of paranormal phenomena that people describe when it comes to, you
9:18
9 minutes, 18 seconds
know, um orbs or, you know, ghost stories and things like that? Do you think there are facets of the same sort of phenomenon?
9:25
9 minutes, 25 seconds
Well, there does appear to be uh an overlap or an intersection if you look at what the people at uh what some some
9:35
9 minutes, 35 seconds
people have experienced and reported uh including people that I friends of mine, people that I know personally. Um there
9:42
9 minutes, 42 seconds
is has been [clears throat] this reported uh hitchhiker effect for example where some of these people have
9:50
9 minutes, 50 seconds
uh returned to their homes and had very strange experiences including orbs among other things. Um you know is that really
9:58
9 minutes, 58 seconds
paranormal or does it appear to be paranormal simply because it's a technology we don't understand? I don't
10:06
10 minutes, 6 seconds
know the answer to that, but I I do wonder what looks paranormal to us because it it looks magical. It looks
10:15
10 minutes, 15 seconds
inconceivable, it looks inconsistent with science, might not be inconsistent with somebody
10:21
10 minutes, 21 seconds
else's science. Um, so, you know, ultimately it might not prove to be paranormal in the sense perhaps that
10:29
10 minutes, 29 seconds
that we think of it, but it appears to be that way. I don't know. It's very mysterious. It's very
10:38
10 minutes, 38 seconds
very strange. Uh there's uh of course also this abduction phenomenon which is quite widespread and tremendous number
10:47
10 minutes, 47 seconds
of reports there. A difficult thing to research. It it really usually comes down to one or two people's sort of
10:55
10 minutes, 55 seconds
personal anecdotes with little if any corroborating information. Uh but
11:02
11 minutes, 2 seconds
sometimes there is I have a friend who um has some medical records and it appears that both he and his wife had
11:11
11 minutes, 11 seconds
suffered some uh some injuries overnight on the evening that this occurred.
11:17
11 minutes, 17 seconds
So uh it's all about following the data and trying to get good data and see where it goes. And [clears throat] I'm open to anything as long as there's data that backs it up.
11:28
11 minutes, 28 seconds
That's a very good point and that that points to um you know a lot of the sensor sensor data you mentioned like the Nimmits uh case you know um activity
11:37
11 minutes, 37 seconds
around military installations or Navy ships or you know um technology that's able to track these things to some
Chapter 7: Why Pentagon UAP videos lack sensor-data context
11:44
11 minutes, 44 seconds
degree and we've gotten releases from the Pentagon of many uh pieces of evidence that have been declassified
11:52
11 minutes, 52 seconds
recently which is a great step in the right direction I feel like a lot of people would agree But there's been um a
11:58
11 minutes, 58 seconds
conspicuous lack of sensor data attached to that. I imagine there's various reasons for that.
12:04
12 minutes, 4 seconds
Um but it makes it difficult to assess the validity of a lot of these videos.
12:12
12 minutes, 12 seconds
Why do you think no context was given as to why a lot of these releases were actually considered to be anomalous?
12:21
12 minutes, 21 seconds
Yeah, I think there's a couple of problems. Um two or three problems. one, almost all of this information was classified
12:29
12 minutes, 29 seconds
uh until very recently, and they're trying to find ways to comply with the president's desires to get the
12:37
12 minutes, 37 seconds
information out while still protecting national security. Um some of these systems uh
12:46
12 minutes, 46 seconds
uh are truly uh used by the war fighter and and really make a big contribution
12:53
12 minutes, 53 seconds
to to the military uh and also to the intelligence community to answering questions from senior policy makers. And
13:00
13 minutes
there is a cost uh sometimes a potentially severe cost to compromising these things. It's uh it's tricky and
13:09
13 minutes, 9 seconds
it's very complicated. Um there can be very small little things that just wouldn't occur to to most people uh
13:16
13 minutes, 16 seconds
because they're not deeply involved in this. Um for example, an overhead satellite. Um
13:25
13 minutes, 25 seconds
is it capable of tracking something moving at a high speed? Uh what is the exact resolution? Uh what is its ability
13:33
13 minutes, 33 seconds
to to slew? How far can it look? left, right, up, down, things like that where an adversary may not think we could take
13:42
13 minutes, 42 seconds
pictures of them because of limitations that they believe a system has that it doesn't have that that sometimes enable
13:49
13 minutes, 49 seconds
us to catch someone moving a nuclear weapon or something like that. I mean, those are that's a real life example
13:56
13 minutes, 56 seconds
where that that has indeed happened. Um, that kind of thing and we don't want to lose those capabilities.
14:04
14 minutes, 4 seconds
But at the same time, uh, the last I spoke with people in the, uh, in and around the intelligence community at
14:12
14 minutes, 12 seconds
senior levels, uh, and at Arrow, they were really feeling a fire under them to get this stuff moving and to try to comply with the president's direction.
14:21
14 minutes, 21 seconds
[clears throat]
14:22
14 minutes, 22 seconds
And I'm expecting more information to come out. Um I'm joining with other people and asking them to try to provide
14:30
14 minutes, 30 seconds
more analysis if they can to try to provide uh time and distance data. I think that's probably above all what
14:38
14 minutes, 38 seconds
this what the scientists need to make use of this data. Um to have a bright light moving around on a screen when you
14:45
14 minutes, 45 seconds
don't know the distance makes it very hard to calculate you know to make use of this by calculating the speeds and
14:53
14 minutes, 53 seconds
ultimately trying to determine if it's something beyond what uh anything that's manufactured that's known to belong to
15:00
15 minutes
any uh in the inventories of any existing country. Uh, and I think that's another challenge that Arrow hasn't met
15:08
15 minutes, 8 seconds
yet that they said they were working on, but I don't think they've done this yet, which is to establish a clear definition
15:17
15 minutes, 17 seconds
of when something is truly anomalous, when something is beyond the pale,
15:24
15 minutes, 24 seconds
clearly beyond the capabilities of current human technology. So they could bend something and say, you know, given
15:32
15 minutes, 32 seconds
this degree of acceleration or this right angle turn at, you know, 5,000 miles or whatever it happens to be, but
15:40
15 minutes, 40 seconds
the set of of behavior characteristics we observe in this video is not something that that we could replicate
15:47
15 minutes, 47 seconds
or any other nation to the best of our knowledge and ability. Um, they need to be able to say that and uh
15:57
15 minutes, 57 seconds
we're working on that. I thought but I haven't seen that definition come forward.
Chapter 8: Overclassification and the 2017 UAP videos
16:03
16 minutes, 3 seconds
Right. So, and just to recap, um it's not necessarily that the analysis itself is classified, but in some cases the
16:10
16 minutes, 10 seconds
sensor technology that is being used to analyze, right?
16:14
16 minutes, 14 seconds
It's often the sensor technology and the the community grossly overclassified.
16:21
16 minutes, 21 seconds
Um, and I've been complaining about this for years without much uh impact, I'm afraid. But to give you an example, the
16:30
16 minutes, 30 seconds
[clears throat] videos that I provided the New York Times and Washington Post in 2017, which led to the front page article in
16:39
16 minutes, 39 seconds
the New York Times uh December 16th of 2017.
16:43
16 minutes, 43 seconds
And both of those videos remain uh truly anomalous. Nobody's no debunker is found an explanation for those that's credible
16:51
16 minutes, 51 seconds
that makes any sense. Um there are scores of other videos from
16:58
16 minutes, 58 seconds
the same collection system in the same F-18 platform, right? And I was
17:06
17 minutes, 6 seconds
investigated and the Air Force Office of Special Investigations confirmed that indeed those were unclassified and they did not damage national security.
17:15
17 minutes, 15 seconds
So, how could they create a classification guide a year or two later that says, "Oh, the release of a video
17:22
17 minutes, 22 seconds
like that would cause grave damage to national security." It doesn't make any sense, but that's exactly what they did.
17:30
17 minutes, 30 seconds
So, I've been, you know, trying to wave a red flag saying foul. Um, that's not consistent with the executive order on how we do classification.
17:40
17 minutes, 40 seconds
Executive order says when you're in doubt as to whether something uh should be declassified or unclassified versus
17:49
17 minutes, 49 seconds
classified, you should heir on the side of transparency.
17:54
17 minutes, 54 seconds
By the way, that's what the executive order, the president's executive order says. And yet somehow they came up with an exe with a classification guide which
18:03
18 minutes, 3 seconds
is completely inconsistent with the president's executive order and says anything having to do with UAP is going to automatically be classified
18:12
18 minutes, 12 seconds
even if it's exactly the same source as sources that have already been on the front page of the New York Times.
18:19
18 minutes, 19 seconds
Yeah, that seems like an didn't cause and didn't which didn't cause any damage. In fact, they enhanced national security because they finally
18:27
18 minutes, 27 seconds
started to get decision makers in the executive branch and the Congress focused on this big challenge and this
18:34
18 minutes, 34 seconds
big problem that we have which was long long overdue.
18:39
18 minutes, 39 seconds
So, you know, I I would contend that more of the information is going to contribute further to national security because that's what you need to get
18:48
18 minutes, 48 seconds
members of Congress spun up in the public to put more effort on solving the problem and getting to the bottom of
18:56
18 minutes, 56 seconds
this. If you don't have public support, you don't usually get as much funding. You don't usually get as much attention.
19:03
19 minutes, 3 seconds
Don't get as much work on the problem. I I use the example of um uh Splutnik and the company the the the
19:13
19 minutes, 13 seconds
public got very upset to think the Russians were establishing a lead in space over the United States. Ultimately
19:20
19 minutes, 20 seconds
we ended up landing on the moon uh in part as a result of the the strong public response and Congress getting
19:27
19 minutes, 27 seconds
engaged and making space a high priority as a result. Right.
Chapter 9: Could another country trigger a UAP disclosure race?
19:33
19 minutes, 33 seconds
Do you think that another nation could spur a a sort of competition to the the end result of UAP disclosure in a similar way?
19:42
19 minutes, 42 seconds
I think it could. I think there are rumors and some fairly um compelling rumors that at least one other country
19:52
19 minutes, 52 seconds
has some of this technology. It's not proven, but there is some intelligence that uh supposedly backs that up that
20:00
20 minutes
corroborates that. And it's frustrating because to my knowledge there's some very specific information that it should be possible
20:09
20 minutes, 9 seconds
to check and and confirm. There are a few reports that I'm familiar with that
20:15
20 minutes, 15 seconds
are relate exactly to that topic. And if those reports are true, then there's a
20:22
20 minutes, 22 seconds
high probability that unless that was a staged event, which is not impossible.
20:27
20 minutes, 27 seconds
The Russians are very big on disinformation, for example. But we're talking about Russia here. And um if these sources of intelligence what I've
20:36
20 minutes, 36 seconds
which I've heard about which are very specific in terms of dates, the kind of intelligence etc. It ought to be
20:43
20 minutes, 43 seconds
possible to locate that and either confirm or disisconfirm those rumors and uh
20:51
20 minutes, 51 seconds
you know that hasn't but that hasn't been done. I've I've suggested that to some of the oversight committees they try to get their hands on this data and
20:59
20 minutes, 59 seconds
I believe they've requested it and it hasn't been provided. I'll continue to try to push that but absolutely no luck so far.
21:09
21 minutes, 9 seconds
Well, keep it up. Hopefully hopefully some movement can be made.
Chapter 10: Clear evidence or gradual public desensitization?
21:14
21 minutes, 14 seconds
Do you think that these government releases that we've been seeing will lead up to unquestionably clear evidence
21:22
21 minutes, 22 seconds
or are they just meant to kind of um desens the desensitize the public to the
21:28
21 minutes, 28 seconds
idea of UAP activity? Because the stuff that we've seen so far hasn't been all that clear. It hasn't been definitive
21:36
21 minutes, 36 seconds
evidence. Um, but I would imagine that more uh substantial evidence probably
21:44
21 minutes, 44 seconds
does exist. Do you think that that's on the way?
21:47
21 minutes, 47 seconds
I do. I think a lot of additional evidence is going to be coming out, but I don't know if it's going to be just more of the same sort of dribbling out.
21:54
21 minutes, 54 seconds
That's the most likely scenario. They're going to take the lowhanging fruit, the easier stuff to declassify. We haven't
22:01
22 minutes, 1 second
seen any any information from our space surveillance systems related to UAP, but
22:08
22 minutes, 8 seconds
we believe that information exists. We haven't seen any information from our strategic radar systems, which also
22:16
22 minutes, 16 seconds
monitor things in space as well as the atmosphere.
22:20
22 minutes, 20 seconds
And we haven't seen uh any information from uh a number of other uh specific systems.
22:30
22 minutes, 30 seconds
Um, in addition to the the solid state phased radars and the uh and the space
22:37
22 minutes, 37 seconds
surveillance systems, um, there are entire classes of of sensors that should be collecting
22:46
22 minutes, 46 seconds
uh, pertinent data and nobody's gotten to the bottom of whether that they they have that information and they have been
22:54
22 minutes, 54 seconds
and it's just highly compartmented uh, or for some reason they haven't been. For example, those radars that
23:02
23 minutes, 2 seconds
missed the Chinese balloons, it's conceivable they could be missing a lot of UAP for similar reasons because they
23:09
23 minutes, 9 seconds
didn't program it to track things that weren't known conventional threats.
23:15
23 minutes, 15 seconds
And so it may just say, "Oh, that looks like clutter. It doesn't match a cruise missile. Doesn't match an ICBM. Doesn't match an aircraft. Bing bing bing. I'm
23:24
23 minutes, 24 seconds
not going to clutter the screen with that." If that's the case, that needs to be fixed. That's a big problem in itself. Uh I think it's more likely that
23:32
23 minutes, 32 seconds
they have tracked some of these things and it's probably in a very close hold uh compartment somewhere. And that
23:41
23 minutes, 41 seconds
compartment probably also somewhere has the the radar from the USS Princeton.
23:46
23 minutes, 46 seconds
Probably has the deck logs from the USS Princeton. Both of which mysteriously uh disappeared
23:53
23 minutes, 53 seconds
um in a very unusual way. Um and and that's true of other uh critical UAP
Chapter 11: Is someone withholding UAP information?
24:00
24 minutes
data. So there does seem to be a hand that's been working behind the scenes to to withhold a lot of information. And uh
24:09
24 minutes, 9 seconds
I think there's likely a struggle between whoever's been conducting those
24:16
24 minutes, 16 seconds
activities and uh the the people who are working for the president who are trying to um trying to get more data released.
24:28
24 minutes, 28 seconds
Um it's going to be hard to get the best stuff out. Satellite data was the other thing I was going to say that we haven't
24:35
24 minutes, 35 seconds
seen yet. And we know there is because the former director of national intelligence has admitted it
24:43
24 minutes, 43 seconds
that we have satellite data of UAP and we haven't seen any of that. I've seen some of it and the the bits that I've seen some of it's been very good. Uh it
24:52
24 minutes, 52 seconds
it would not necess it wouldn't necessarily um resolve the issue, but it would move the needle. It's it's better
25:01
25 minutes, 1 second
than the stuff that we've been seeing in my eyes.
25:05
25 minutes, 5 seconds
Um, so I think there's there's a lot that uh that could be released that would help to inform the public and and
25:14
25 minutes, 14 seconds
better inform the public. And I'm hoping it will be. The Disclosure Foundation is working every single day to with with
25:23
25 minutes, 23 seconds
congressmen on the Hill and with potential whistleblowers and with administration officials to try to uh
25:30
25 minutes, 30 seconds
facilitate the release of that of that kind of information.
25:34
25 minutes, 34 seconds
You know, there's a lot of speculation about [clears throat] a sort of a very coordinated and controlled disclosure rollout strategy.
Chapter 12: Is disclosure coordinated or fragmented?
25:44
25 minutes, 44 seconds
Do you think that that's something that people are just projecting onto like a narrative on top of, you know, what's actually happening or is it is is it
25:52
25 minutes, 52 seconds
there really a level of coordination to this or is it more of a fragmented and reluctant process to release all of this information in bits and pieces? I I
26:01
26 minutes, 1 second
think a lot of people are projecting a degree of um
26:10
26 minutes, 10 seconds
manipulation or control that to my mind doesn't seem to exist.
26:15
26 minutes, 15 seconds
Um I don't know where you know it's sort of natural for people to want to say this you know this all makes
26:22
26 minutes, 22 seconds
sense somehow and there's some controlling guiding hand. What seems to have happened was in terms of these
26:30
26 minutes, 30 seconds
records that it was uh a bit of good luck on our part that uh former President Obama made some comments about
26:39
26 minutes, 39 seconds
alien life and President Trump heard those commas uh comments and got exercised about it and accused President
26:47
26 minutes, 47 seconds
Obama of leaking classified information which is fascinating to think that knowledge of alien beings is classified
26:56
26 minutes, 56 seconds
information that seems to confirm what it is that that you know they were trying to conceal in itself. And then he
27:03
27 minutes, 3 seconds
reportedly said, uh, I'm going to release all this stuff so Obama doesn't get in trouble for releasing classified
27:10
27 minutes, 10 seconds
information. And meanwhile, Obama just said, I wasn't talking about anything classified. I was just talking about in general an infinite universe. I think there's got to be life out there.
27:20
27 minutes, 20 seconds
I wasn't talking about anything to do with the federal government. But nevertheless, it seems to that seems to have been what triggered this release
27:28
27 minutes, 28 seconds
that we're seeing. So, we're not questioning that. We're just saying, great, thank you very much.
27:34
27 minutes, 34 seconds
Bring it on and let's let's make the most of this opportunity. But I don't see it as a part of some grand scheme
27:41
27 minutes, 41 seconds
that somebody's concocted. And I say that based on in part on talking to uh some people that work in and around the
27:49
27 minutes, 49 seconds
White House as well as people that work at Arrow and the bureau and other places. Uh the the the the people that
27:57
27 minutes, 57 seconds
are doing the work of declassifying and so forth, they don't have the impression that there's there's some big plan a
28:04
28 minutes, 4 seconds
foot. Um I think they all have the impression the president wants this done, so we're going to try to do it.
28:11
28 minutes, 11 seconds
and somehow we've got to try to do it without violating the executive order on classification at the same time. And so
28:18
28 minutes, 18 seconds
they're struggling with this conflicting guidance and trying to trying to do as best they can. I think they also didn't
28:27
28 minutes, 27 seconds
get any additional funding or any additional bodies to do the work. So this is a big new job on top of all the other jobs that those people already had.
28:36
28 minutes, 36 seconds
[clears throat] And um so I think for that reason I'm probably a little bit more uh patient and understanding than
28:44
28 minutes, 44 seconds
than a lot of the critics are because I've worked in that bureaucracy. I know how hard it is to get these things done. Mhm.
28:51
28 minutes, 51 seconds
Uh even even for the president, the fact that he issues an order, you know, it has to filter down into all these
28:58
28 minutes, 58 seconds
organizations to these sort of mid and low levels that are hard to hold accountable um all over the place and
29:07
29 minutes, 7 seconds
can be hard to manage. And yet they are getting stuff out. the the seniors are cracking the whip and there's a lot of meetings going on and and a lot of
29:16
29 minutes, 16 seconds
action back there and and uh they seem to be serious and I'm expecting a great deal more to come out but uh will it end
29:25
29 minutes, 25 seconds
up including satellite data? Will it end up including space surveillance data uh
29:31
29 minutes, 31 seconds
or data from uh these these radars which are the most powerful emitters on the planet and absolutely should be seeing
29:40
29 minutes, 40 seconds
some of these craft? That remains to be seen.
29:44
29 minutes, 44 seconds
Well, it's definitely a tricky job, but I'm I'm glad that there's been a lot of action this year. Actually, it seems to have ramped up considerably. At this
29:51
29 minutes, 51 seconds
stage, what kind of evidence would it take to change your mind about about UAPs and uh and their origins?
Chapter 13: What evidence could change Mellon’s mind?
30:03
30 minutes, 3 seconds
Well, I don't know.
30:06
30 minutes, 6 seconds
You mean uh in terms of an explanation that would uh eliminate an extraterrestrial hypothes?
30:12
30 minutes, 12 seconds
Yeah. Is there anything? Could you imagine any sort of evidence that would uh change your mind about that or have you has what convinced you 100%.
30:23
30 minutes, 23 seconds
It's difficult to conceive of that because this has been going on for so long. You know, if this had been going
30:31
30 minutes, 31 seconds
on for the last five years or 10 years or something, then I could envision a scenario where someone comes out and
30:37
30 minutes, 37 seconds
says, "Yep, the end of the day, that was some program we had that was so secret that it was being treated like the
30:44
30 minutes, 44 seconds
Manhattan project and it was an anti-grav project and nobody knew about it or possibly the Russians or Chinese."
30:52
30 minutes, 52 seconds
But this has been going on since the 40s.
30:55
30 minutes, 55 seconds
Who had that kind of capability in the 40s or 50s?
30:59
30 minutes, 59 seconds
you know, to send wingless aircraft that have no air intake, no exhaust, that are silent, that uh achieve supersonic
31:08
31 minutes, 8 seconds
speeds without a sonic boom, that don't have any plasma when they're going at at hypersonic speeds. Uh, nobody had that
31:17
31 minutes, 17 seconds
kind of capability. Nobody has that kind of capability today, but it's really hard to imagine it in the 50s and 60s
31:26
31 minutes, 26 seconds
when so many of these reports were occurring.
31:29
31 minutes, 29 seconds
Um and so many of them were reports from credible military personnel, scientists,
31:36
31 minutes, 36 seconds
uh security people, police officers, uh very credible witnesses, uh often in and around, for example, Los Alamos in
31:45
31 minutes, 45 seconds
1950 submitted a document with over 200 sightings just around Los Alamos
31:54
31 minutes, 54 seconds
from all kinds of personnel, mostly employees, scientists, Air Force officers, security
32:01
32 minutes, 1 second
guards, you name it. Civilians who were working there. All kinds of people were having these sightings.
32:08
32 minutes, 8 seconds
And um it's hard for me to think of an explanation that is terrestrial that
32:16
32 minutes, 16 seconds
would account for what what they were observing back then.
32:19
32 minutes, 19 seconds
When you put it that way, it's very compelling. Why do you think there are still so many skeptics out there who are only interested in debunking this stuff?
Chapter 14: Skeptics, debunkers and disinformation
32:26
32 minutes, 26 seconds
Well, I don't know how many skeptics there are overall if they if they're a large number really in terms of the the population at large. I think there's
32:36
32 minutes, 36 seconds
some people that are absolutely terrified at the prospect that we may may not be alone. And I think they're some people are reacting to that.
32:46
32 minutes, 46 seconds
They're uh just desperate to find to disprove this and to find any alternative explanation they can. I
32:54
32 minutes, 54 seconds
think there may some of these people may be being paid. I think there may be an effort to try to uh push back in as a
33:03
33 minutes, 3 seconds
part of the the same cover up that we're seeing with the radar disappearing and the deck logs disappearing for example.
33:10
33 minutes, 10 seconds
So there are some there are some forces at play there are some forces at play here who are trying to trying to squash the the roll out. uh is
33:19
33 minutes, 19 seconds
is that again that that's been going on since at least the 50s and air [clears throat] force office of uh special
33:26
33 minutes, 26 seconds
investigations one of their employees has admitted to spying on US UFO groups
33:34
33 minutes, 34 seconds
paying money to a member of one of these groups to spy on Americans which is illegal. Uh apparently they were issuing
33:42
33 minutes, 42 seconds
uh uh putting out disinformation to the American public which is an illegal covert action program. Uh haven't seen
33:50
33 minutes, 50 seconds
any accountability on that. It's it's really a ripe issue that the uh intelligence committee should have jumped on. Uh it's why they were created
33:59
33 minutes, 59 seconds
to prevent that kind of thing from happening. And I think the reason they haven't is because of the stigma surrounding the UAP issue. one and two
34:08
34 minutes, 8 seconds
because many of the the most prominent cases occurred so long ago, but many of
34:15
34 minutes, 15 seconds
those people like uh Richard Dodie for example are still alive and still available to speak to. Um I would
34:22
34 minutes, 22 seconds
encourage them to to get them to the Hill and see what they have to say about this entire topic and and their role in
34:29
34 minutes, 29 seconds
it. He's made a lot of claims about over the years about US recovery of of
34:37
34 minutes, 37 seconds
spacecraft. And some people think that was disinformation to try to uh cover up
34:43
34 minutes, 43 seconds
Air Force programs. Um I I don't know. I don't presume to know what his motives
34:50
34 minutes, 50 seconds
were, but I do think that some of the claims he's made and which were validated in at least one case by uh an
34:58
34 minutes, 58 seconds
individual who admitted at MUAN conference that he had been taking money from uh from OSI to spy and report on on
35:07
35 minutes, 7 seconds
his fellow Americans at this UFO organization.
35:13
35 minutes, 13 seconds
Um, I think that warrants uh the congressional inquiry uh as to what they were doing and whether any of that kind
35:20
35 minutes, 20 seconds
of action still continues. Uh, there was also Leonard Stringfield who was a the
Chapter 15: Leonard Stringfield and recovered-material claims
35:27
35 minutes, 27 seconds
probably the first person to seriously broach the idea of recovered uh materials.
35:34
35 minutes, 34 seconds
and he was subjected to a lot of uh bizarre behavior and efforts to
35:43
35 minutes, 43 seconds
discredit him. For example, he was sent materials on alleged incidents
35:49
35 minutes, 49 seconds
which um he didn't bite on. He was skeptical and he was always keeping a
35:56
35 minutes, 56 seconds
sharp eye out. Uh and he was somebody who wisely
36:02
36 minutes, 2 seconds
really tried to uh carefully investigate the facts before embracing or endorsing
36:09
36 minutes, 9 seconds
any claims. And sure enough, some of these claims proved to be bogus and appeared to be an effort to discredit
36:17
36 minutes, 17 seconds
him, get him to accept his story publicly, get a lot of press around it, and then to pull the rug out from under
36:24
36 minutes, 24 seconds
him and reveal that somebody just made it all up and and sort of, you know, wipe him out. Um, that kind of thing was
36:32
36 minutes, 32 seconds
going on and it appeared to be coming from the government. uh some of the documents he received when I read them,
36:39
36 minutes, 39 seconds
they sound so much like some of our CI guys writing them. I could just I could just feel it kind of uh knowing how
36:48
36 minutes, 48 seconds
those organizations work, etc. Um a little bit sloppy, pretty good effort,
36:54
36 minutes, 54 seconds
but but not not like uh worldclass writing that you might get with uh some
37:01
37 minutes, 1 second
some great author or something. uh sort of a soldierly effort to try to uh get him to bite on this stuff.
37:10
37 minutes, 10 seconds
Um so that's another reason that I uh my
37:16
37 minutes, 16 seconds
suspicions are aroused when it comes to the uh the claims about recovered materials. There's been a lot of
37:24
37 minutes, 24 seconds
activity to try to suppress uh discussion of that issue. So Leonard didn't uh I believe claim to have
37:32
37 minutes, 32 seconds
absolute proof, but he did have some some evidence and some sources.
37:38
37 minutes, 38 seconds
One of the things that happened to him was his first speech uh that he was going to give on this topic at a muon gathering. He was warned not to attend.
37:46
37 minutes, 46 seconds
He was warned by anonymous phone calls not to talk about this. He showed up and the minute he opened his mouth to give
37:54
37 minutes, 54 seconds
his presentation, two police officers ran up on stage and tackled him and they dragged him off stage up to a room in
38:01
38 minutes, 1 second
the hotel that was not his room um and claimed that they were doing this to protect him and uh that's the kind of
38:10
38 minutes, 10 seconds
stuff that was happening to him at the time.
38:13
38 minutes, 13 seconds
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38 minutes, 20 seconds
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38 minutes, 27 seconds
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38 minutes, 36 seconds
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38 minutes, 44 seconds
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38 minutes, 49 seconds
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38 minutes, 57 seconds
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39 minutes, 5 seconds
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39:13
39 minutes, 13 seconds
remember to use promo code unveiled at checkout to save 20% on your first order. I know that the um Disclosure Foundation has done uh recently done an
39:21
39 minutes, 21 seconds
event, the Disclosure Forum happened on June 25th. For anybody who's uh hasn't been aware of that, can you give us a brief overview of the event or what the goal was and and what happened?
Chapter 16: What happened at the Disclosure Forum?
39:33
39 minutes, 33 seconds
Sure. Thank you for for giving me the opportunity. So, uh, one of the things that we wanted to touch on or discuss in some depth is the
39:42
39 minutes, 42 seconds
issue of what if we do get disclosure, right? We're pushing for it. We shouldn't be pushing for it if we unless
39:49
39 minutes, 49 seconds
we think it's going to do have a positive benefit for America uh, and hopefully for the world. Um,
39:58
39 minutes, 58 seconds
just as lawyers are advised not to ask questions in court unless they know the answer ahead of time. Um, you could
40:05
40 minutes, 5 seconds
certainly suggest it's not wise to be pushing for disclosure if you really haven't thought it through what the impact is going to be. If it's going to
40:12
40 minutes, 12 seconds
result in terrifying hundreds of millions of people in a meltdown in society, that's that's that's
40:20
40 minutes, 20 seconds
one scenario. if it's something that in fact people can live with and it can open eyes and and make our society more
40:29
40 minutes, 29 seconds
um uh prolific technologically and uh lead to to breakthroughs and a better international environment so forth.
40:39
40 minutes, 39 seconds
That's another thing and those are wildly desperate potential outcomes. Uh so we wanted to talk about the potential
40:47
40 minutes, 47 seconds
impact um uh in society from an economic standpoint, from a religious standpoint, uh from a technological standpoint. So
40:56
40 minutes, 56 seconds
we had panels that addressed uh those issues and discussed them and uh that was a a big part of our our goal and
41:04
41 minutes, 4 seconds
objective. We felt this had been a very deeply neglected issue and needed to be discussed. So we wanted to bring people
41:13
41 minutes, 13 seconds
there to to do that. We also wanted to um give people a chance to engage with
41:22
41 minutes, 22 seconds
uh some of the individuals at our organization and others who had been
41:28
41 minutes, 28 seconds
leading voices on this topic. Um there was a great turnout there from other organizations. We had Robert Powell from
41:38
41 minutes, 38 seconds
the scientific coalition for UAP studies. I think Gary Nolan might have been there from the Soul Institute if he
41:44
41 minutes, 44 seconds
hadn't been in Europe. Um, Lu Alzando was there and we gave him an award for his work on on pressing for disclosure.
41:55
41 minutes, 55 seconds
Uh [snorts] we also wanted to acknowledge and uh uh present awards to senators and
42:03
42 minutes, 3 seconds
congressmen who have been taking time from their very very busy schedules to to to push this issue and this agenda
42:11
42 minutes, 11 seconds
and some have been working very hard on it. We wanted to acknowledge them and uh encourage this encourage them to keep
42:19
42 minutes, 19 seconds
going and uh and and to do more. So, we had a number of different objectives.
42:27
42 minutes, 27 seconds
Uh, and I think it aside for some audio glitches here and there, I'm very pleased with uh overall with with how it
42:36
42 minutes, 36 seconds
came off and the the interactions that we had.
42:39
42 minutes, 39 seconds
It looked like a great event. Um, in your opinion, since part of the focus was on what would happen after
42:46
42 minutes, 46 seconds
disclosure, what do you think the most likely scenario would be if full disclosure was was granted to the
Chapter 17: What would happen after full disclosure?
42:53
42 minutes, 53 seconds
public? Do you think that it would be uh largely positive? Would there be a lot of unforeseen negative consequences?
43:02
43 minutes, 2 seconds
What's your read on what might happen?
43:04
43 minutes, 4 seconds
One of the things that we did was we used the opportunity to present data that we've been that we've collected. So we um we undertook uh we hired a firm to
43:14
43 minutes, 14 seconds
do some polling and collect some data and we had some uh professional psychologists and and
43:22
43 minutes, 22 seconds
academics review the data and presented some results of of findings by some professionals in the field. And what
43:32
43 minutes, 32 seconds
they found was that one there is overwhelming support about 90% from members of either party for disclosure.
43:41
43 minutes, 41 seconds
Overwhelming support for more information from the government. An overwhelming belief the government is holding back and and hiding more
43:50
43 minutes, 50 seconds
information uh still. And that of course we know is true. That's not even a really a question anymore. Um there
43:59
43 minutes, 59 seconds
probably now it appears to be millions of pages when a few years ago we were hearing oh we don't have anything we
44:07
44 minutes, 7 seconds
don't know anything about this the uh first air force uh report on UFOs basically said we don't have anything we
44:14
44 minutes, 14 seconds
don't collect on that now we're finding there is of course tons of data out there um but what they found was that
44:24
44 minutes, 24 seconds
there was a segment of the population it might be 15% sensei that would be uh
44:33
44 minutes, 33 seconds
so threatened and so uh their map of reality would be so challenged that they
44:39
44 minutes, 39 seconds
would need some counseling probably would need some help and we should as a
44:46
44 minutes, 46 seconds
society uh if the seniors are going to go down that path deliberately I mean disclosure could happen any day right I
44:54
44 minutes, 54 seconds
mean there could be a landing somewhere and TV cameras can start rolling and there we go. But if it's going to be
45:01
45 minutes, 1 second
part of a deliberate uh policy on the part of the government, one of the things that we learned um and concluded
45:09
45 minutes, 9 seconds
was that they should make an effort to prepare to do some counseling for significant numbers of people and have
45:17
45 minutes, 17 seconds
resources available. But we're talking about a fraction of the population. Most people we found are still going to get
45:24
45 minutes, 24 seconds
up, put their shoes on, go to work, pay the mortgage, do all the things they have to do. Um, particularly if the
45:32
45 minutes, 32 seconds
pattern continues as it is, which is to say there's no hostility, there's no, you know, uh, invasion or
45:39
45 minutes, 39 seconds
anything of of that kind that's threatening. If it continues to be a matter of observation uh of us which seems to be what's
45:47
45 minutes, 47 seconds
happening uh and observation uh particularly focused on on military which could be for purely defensive
45:56
45 minutes, 56 seconds
purposes. They may want to know just as we would if we went to a a distant planet that was occupied by a less uh
46:05
46 minutes, 5 seconds
advanced species but nevertheless they had nuclear weapons and things like that. We'd want to know, you know, what do they have that might kill our people
46:12
46 minutes, 12 seconds
or take out our probes or whatever. We'd not we'd want to know what the threats are. And it could be that a lot of what we're observing is nothing more than
46:21
46 minutes, 21 seconds
that. Uh an effort to inventory engage in order to avoid uh possible threats.
46:29
46 minutes, 29 seconds
Um but but we you know those are among the many unanswered questions that we don't know the answer to that we that
46:37
46 minutes, 37 seconds
are important that we need to seek answers to.
46:39
46 minutes, 39 seconds
I'm happy to hear that that um analysis was was made because I feel that uh generally speaking people's fortitude is
46:48
46 minutes, 48 seconds
sometimes underestimated in in the amount of things that they could they could accept and and keep going. Um, so
46:55
46 minutes, 55 seconds
I I tend to agree that I I think a lot of people would probably be relatively unfased and I feel like a lot of people
47:02
47 minutes, 2 seconds
even if they don't talk about about it have the suspicion that you know I I I I don't remember what the statist
47:10
47 minutes, 10 seconds
statistics were but people were asked you know what what are the odds that um there's life in the universe and and the
47:17
47 minutes, 17 seconds
vast majority of the people conclude that yeah the universe is enormous there's got to be life out there and And it's not a great stretch to imagine some
Chapter 18: How ready is the public for alien life?
47:25
47 minutes, 25 seconds
of them visiting Earth. So, doesn't seem to be something that is all that shocking anymore. I don't think it
47:33
47 minutes, 33 seconds
it's inevitable that there's advanced technological life out there. And different astronomers come up with
47:40
47 minutes, 40 seconds
different numbers, but typically the range of numbers I've seen, they almost always conclude at the end of the day
47:47
47 minutes, 47 seconds
that there are 100 or a thousand or 10,000 civilizations just in this galaxy alone. Um, and there are others who take
47:56
47 minutes, 56 seconds
different mathematical approaches and say things like, "What what are the odds that we're the only advanced civilization in the universe?" And you get these incomprehensibly vast numbers.
48:07
48 minutes, 7 seconds
the odds are are so uh immensely low that they're uh hard to get your head
48:14
48 minutes, 14 seconds
around uh if not impossible. people also you know it's hard for us to grasp not
48:21
48 minutes, 21 seconds
only the infinite extent of the universe impossible to grasp the dimensions even our own solar system when you see it
48:30
48 minutes, 30 seconds
drawn it's misleading right because the earth and the other planets are actually much much further from the sun than they
48:37
48 minutes, 37 seconds
appear to be those those typical little drawings we see where they're all sort of equidistant you know from one another
48:44
48 minutes, 44 seconds
and just moving out from the sun like that. That's not an accurate rendering, right? We know that the planets are much much further from the sun than than
48:53
48 minutes, 53 seconds
those models typically convey. But typically, not only is the space so much greater than than we can generally
49:02
49 minutes, 2 seconds
imagine, but the amount of time that's involved, the billions and [clears throat]
49:08
49 minutes, 8 seconds
billions of years that have gone by that would have allowed other civilizations to develop and begin to explore space.
49:18
49 minutes, 18 seconds
And even if they're sending unmanned probes, and even if those probes take hundreds of thousands of years or longer, our universe, our galaxy at
49:27
49 minutes, 27 seconds
least, could have been crisscrossed in a small fraction of the age of a galaxy a number of times already. So if our
49:35
49 minutes, 35 seconds
galaxies, you know, roughly 14 billion years old, probably in a couple of million years, a civilization could in
49:43
49 minutes, 43 seconds
theory, uh, say if they had self-replicating probes, get those all the way across one side of the galaxy to the other and back in maybe 1% of the life of our galaxy.
49:55
49 minutes, 55 seconds
But the amount of time that's involved is also absolutely immense and and that needs to
50:02
50 minutes, 2 seconds
be factored into this as well when we think about the possibility that somebody else might have this kind of technology and might be able to reach us.
50:12
50 minutes, 12 seconds
Absolutely. Getting back to the the more, you know, administrative side of this whole ordeal, what is the next
50:19
50 minutes, 19 seconds
legislative or executive action that needs to take place in order to get more uh more evidence out there to the public?
Chapter 19: What legislative action is needed next?
50:28
50 minutes, 28 seconds
Well, there are a lot of good things happening already and uh and yet there is more legislation
50:36
50 minutes, 36 seconds
uh in the pipeline. We understand that Senator Rounds and Senator Schumer are going to [clears throat] reintroduce
50:42
50 minutes, 42 seconds
their bill again, the Disclosure Act, and uh with some modification, I believe, but uh they're trying to pass
50:51
50 minutes, 51 seconds
legislation that would uh require the um
50:58
50 minutes, 58 seconds
a number of of high level officials to review all the information. There's already a requirement for all government
51:06
51 minutes, 6 seconds
departments to turn in all their UAP data to the National Archives. And we've held a couple of meetings with the National Archives to discuss that, how
51:14
51 minutes, 14 seconds
that's coming along and what that involves and what kinds of information and what level of classification they
51:21
51 minutes, 21 seconds
can they can manage and and how they work with some of those things. um to try to to better understand that process and how comprehensive it's going to be.
51:34
51 minutes, 34 seconds
Um they're uh the people at the National Archives are working this in good faith and our um in in in terms of our
51:44
51 minutes, 44 seconds
impressions based on the meetings we've had. And this would get somebody a group of people at the highest levels uh give
51:52
51 minutes, 52 seconds
them access and an opportunity to uh give a report to the president on on
51:59
51 minutes, 59 seconds
what is there and what he ought to do with it. And uh beyond that begin planning for uh a disclosure event
52:08
52 minutes, 8 seconds
assuming that there is uh information that that is confirmatory. Who do you think would be uh a person who could
52:17
52 minutes, 17 seconds
unlock the most important information about this if they were able to speak freely about it?
52:23
52 minutes, 23 seconds
is like who should be placed in charge of that presidential commission or of Arrow or something else or
Chapter 20: Who could unlock the most important UAP information?
52:31
52 minutes, 31 seconds
I I mean more like who has the most information personally who would be of
52:39
52 minutes, 39 seconds
like the highest value to be able to say exactly what everything that they know.
52:46
52 minutes, 46 seconds
Well, like I said, I suspect there is a compartmented program. I suspect it's
52:52
52 minutes, 52 seconds
Air Force, but um it could be the Office of Science and Technology at CIA or both.
53:00
53 minutes
Um one version we hear is that the Air Force is the executive agent for CIA.
53:06
53 minutes, 6 seconds
The CIA actually owns and controls the reverse engineering program with Air Force is
53:14
53 minutes, 14 seconds
the exe their executive agent. Um that's just one uh one one theory, one
53:21
53 minutes, 21 seconds
rendering. Uh the Department of Energy is for sure involved if uh in fact we've
53:29
53 minutes, 29 seconds
recovered any materials. I can't imagine they wouldn't be. Um partly because there's almost inevitably going to be
Chapter 21: The Department of Energy, CIA and Air Force
53:37
53 minutes, 37 seconds
some radioactive materials involved and likely exploitation of some nuclear
53:44
53 minutes, 44 seconds
power. uh with the propulsion and uh they also have the least
53:50
53 minutes, 50 seconds
oversight uh of any organization uh in my experience working on the hill and working at DoD. Um they have black
54:00
54 minutes
programs that virtually no one sees or gets access to outside of DOE. They have vast test ranges
54:09
54 minutes, 9 seconds
and intense security and lots of underground facilities to do things.
54:13
54 minutes, 13 seconds
They're a a natural uh partner um if not even perhaps a lead in trying to
54:21
54 minutes, 21 seconds
research something like uh uh a propulsion system that was invented uh
54:28
54 minutes, 28 seconds
elsewhere. I think they would have to be involved. So those are the three organizations that in my view likely
54:35
54 minutes, 35 seconds
have the most and best information and then there's likely a number of contractors involved as well. Right.
54:42
54 minutes, 42 seconds
Right. To my understanding there's a inevitably that provides another bottleneck, right? Because that is outside of government oversight. What
Chapter 22: Contractors and UAP program oversight
54:50
54 minutes, 50 seconds
are the biggest Well, it's not really outside of government oversight entirely. It's it's a bit more of a stretch, but uh it's
55:00
55 minutes
common place for for these companies to one when they're when they're building something, they're under all kinds of
55:08
55 minutes, 8 seconds
government restrictions for acquisition programs. If you're building something big and expensive like a fighter, category A1A
55:17
55 minutes, 17 seconds
acquisition has all kinds of milestones imposed by the government and they can't proceed to the next thing until they've demonstrated to government officials.
55:27
55 minutes, 27 seconds
They've checked, you know, the following boxes and obtained certain levels of performance. There's government people
55:34
55 minutes, 34 seconds
crawling around those programs uh monitoring, checking on them, holding meetings uh on a regular basis. In that
55:41
55 minutes, 41 seconds
case, it would be air force officials uh primarily um some OSD officials likely in uh the
55:50
55 minutes, 50 seconds
office of under secretary for acquisition and and technology.
55:54
55 minutes, 54 seconds
Um and sometimes congressional officials as well. uh when I was on the hill um I can remember going getting a tour of the
56:02
56 minutes, 2 seconds
Boeing plant with the deputy secretary of defense for example. So there there's quite a bit of oversight and an effort
56:08
56 minutes, 8 seconds
on the part of those committees to stay in goodstead with uh with the the
56:15
56 minutes, 15 seconds
executive branch organizations that are purchasing their products and also with the people on the hill that are authorizing the funding for their
56:24
56 minutes, 24 seconds
products. So they spend a lot of time and effort working government relations and um
56:32
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uh that involves a lot of visits and a lot of oversight. So they're they're not necessarily like a black box that's untouchable or something.
56:43
56 minutes, 43 seconds
Gotcha. How big of a bottleneck is whistleblower protection um when it comes to getting testimony from these
56:51
56 minutes, 51 seconds
people, having them um get into skiffs or testify in front of Congress? Do they uh is there enough being done to make
Chapter 23: Whistleblower protections, NDAs and Congress
56:58
56 minutes, 58 seconds
these people feel safe to come forward with their information?
57:03
57 minutes, 3 seconds
A quite a bit has been done, but there's more that that we can do and uh and we
57:10
57 minutes, 10 seconds
support that. And we understand, you know, the good news is that to date
57:17
57 minutes, 17 seconds
people like myself who have been going to the Hill with information for years now and been bringing other
57:25
57 minutes, 25 seconds
people to the Hill, Navy pilots, Eric Davis, and others, uh, all kinds of
57:31
57 minutes, 31 seconds
people. Um, no one has been prosecuted for sharing classified information with
57:39
57 minutes, 39 seconds
an appropriate oversight committee in an appropriate space. You know, that's cleared for discussions of classified
57:47
57 minutes, 47 seconds
information. So, there's not a single instance that we know of of anyone going to jail for doing that. So, that's a
57:54
57 minutes, 54 seconds
great relief and something that people need to understand. Uh secondly, a lot of people are concerned about their
58:02
58 minutes, 2 seconds
non-disclosure agreements. Um I would urge those people to read them carefully andor avail themselves of our lawyers
58:10
58 minutes, 10 seconds
who are free and happy to provide uh counseling and assistance in any way they can. It turns out many of these
58:19
58 minutes, 19 seconds
NDAs actually have a specific provision saying this doesn't apply to Congress if you read the fine print. But most people
58:28
58 minutes, 28 seconds
don't read the fine print. It's like, you know, when you're you're getting a download for an update in your computer, how many times you actually read all
58:34
58 minutes, 34 seconds
that legal garbage that is spewing on your screen, right? You're like, just get it over with.
58:42
58 minutes, 42 seconds
And [clears throat] uh so it does turn out that in many cases it's not a barrier to talking to Congress.
58:48
58 minutes, 48 seconds
The uh the thing that I think is a greater uh more realistic concern and fear right now is administrative retribution.
58:58
58 minutes, 58 seconds
uh people losing their jobs, losing their clearances and uh uh you know that's obviously very
Chapter 24: Administrative retaliation and risks for witnesses
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59 minutes, 6 seconds
very severe risk to somebody um who's gainfully employed, been working say for you know decades for the
59:15
59 minutes, 15 seconds
federal government and that that's a uh that's a huge risk for for some
59:24
59 minutes, 24 seconds
people uh to run. Uh thankfully we don't often see if people come to the hill and
59:31
59 minutes, 31 seconds
do it very discreetly and and there's no knowledge or awareness back in their agency. I've seen that happen many times
59:39
59 minutes, 39 seconds
and and people have been able to pull that off without any retribution. But in other cases, particularly if they're
59:46
59 minutes, 46 seconds
public about it, um there have been some some ugly uh scenarios that have developed and it's proven very costly to some of these people.
59:56
59 minutes, 56 seconds
and um costly in terms of time, in terms of money, terms of stress on them and their families. So there is legislation
1:00:05
1 hour, 5 seconds
that is uh that we support that is uh trying to provide greater protections for that
1:00:13
1 hour, 13 seconds
and uh we'd like to see that be enacted along with uh the disclosure act and and other legislation.
1:00:22
1 hour, 22 seconds
We we also, by the way, gave a $10,000 gift to a new organization uh that is
1:00:29
1 hour, 29 seconds
composed of whistleblowers, sort of buy and for whistleblowers, and uh we want to help them get their
1:00:37
1 hour, 37 seconds
feet on the ground. So, we took some of the proceeds from some of our contributors at the conference and uh uh
1:00:45
1 hour, 45 seconds
gave them a $10,000 grant to uh help them get get moving.
1:00:51
1 hour, 51 seconds
That's fantastic. they they deserve all the support that they can get for sure.
1:00:55
1 hour, 55 seconds
Um before we wrap it up, I'd just like to end on kind of an interesting anecdote because you recently brought attention to an account involving a
1:01:04
1 hour, 1 minute, 4 seconds
bunch of smaller objects which were spotted entering a larger object seemingly and it was referred to uh
Chapter 25: The “mothership” sighting account
1:01:11
1 hour, 1 minute, 11 seconds
using the words mother ship. So, I was wondering if you could take us through that account um and what exactly happened there because I saw it kind of
1:01:19
1 hour, 1 minute, 19 seconds
circulating online and it's it seemed very interesting.
1:01:23
1 hour, 1 minute, 23 seconds
Right. And you'll find if you investigate this incident, so this was I believe the winter of 20 2019 to 2020 or 2020 to 2021.
1:01:36
1 hour, 1 minute, 36 seconds
Um, but this was after the incident at Guam with either drones or UAP that were
1:01:45
1 hour, 1 minute, 45 seconds
going to the most sensitive part of that critical facility in the Pacific Command. And it was after many of the
1:01:52
1 hour, 1 minute, 52 seconds
incidents involving US Navy ships off the West Coast. uh which happened to occur by the way right in front of one of those massive radars that I've been
1:02:00
1 hour, 2 minutes
talking about saying that should have data almost must have data like the Nimits incident played out over days right in front of one of those radars like how
1:02:08
1 hour, 2 minutes, 8 seconds
could they not have data it's hard to rather hard to believe but anyway this started happening out west
1:02:16
1 hour, 2 minutes, 16 seconds
with farmers calling the sheriff and calling law enforcement authorities saying you know somebody's flying like
1:02:22
1 hour, 2 minutes, 22 seconds
30 or 40 drones over my ranch uh they you know they called them drones often times for one of a better term but
1:02:30
1 hour, 2 minutes, 30 seconds
it really wasn't clear what they were they might have been drones uh they might have been UAP it's it's hard to
1:02:37
1 hour, 2 minutes, 37 seconds
tell and the reason it's hard to tell in part is because of in incidents like the following so I got the name of a sheriff
1:02:46
1 hour, 2 minutes, 46 seconds
out there who had been involved in responding and and his deputy who had been involved in responding to some of these incidents and I always like to get as close to the ground truth as I can.
1:02:56
1 hour, 2 minutes, 56 seconds
When I hear these stories, I like to try to talk to the people who are directly involved, the witnesses, etc., rather than relying on second and third-hand
1:03:05
1 hour, 3 minutes, 5 seconds
information. So, I started making phone calls out there. And at that point the FBI and the Air Force and others had
1:03:12
1 hour, 3 minutes, 12 seconds
also been brought in and the uh the war zone uh and uh the the writer Tyler Rogue and some of his colleagues have
1:03:21
1 hour, 3 minutes, 21 seconds
done great cover did great coverage of this and you can see in some of the documents that federal security
1:03:28
1 hour, 3 minutes, 28 seconds
officials were using they use the term mothership. It's not just the sheriff that I talked to. So bear that in mind that other people were seeing this too.
1:03:39
1 hour, 3 minutes, 39 seconds
But the sheriff uh recounted an experience where he responded to a call from a local it was either a farmer or a
1:03:47
1 hour, 3 minutes, 47 seconds
rancher and there were a bunch of these lights moving around over his property.
1:03:53
1 hour, 3 minutes, 53 seconds
Some of these incidents, by the way, were were really provocative and um sort of in your face. Like imagine being in
1:04:02
1 hour, 4 minutes, 2 seconds
the bathroom and looking out the window and there's a drone right there staring in. I mean people were having experiences like that with drones coming up to the windows in their houses
1:04:10
1 hour, 4 minutes, 10 seconds
sometimes. I mean whatever [clears throat] they were um really really bizarre and provocative.
1:04:17
1 hour, 4 minutes, 17 seconds
[clears throat] So anyway, he's watching this and this larger light comes in, this much larger object,
1:04:24
1 hour, 4 minutes, 24 seconds
and the smaller ones went inside it. And he said it took off faster than anything I've ever seen. It just shot out of
1:04:33
1 hour, 4 minutes, 33 seconds
there like it had been uh launched on one of these out of a rail gun or something. It just went flying by right
1:04:41
1 hour, 4 minutes, 41 seconds
by his truck at absolutely phenomenal speed with all these smaller objects inside it and then disappeared out over the horizon.
1:04:50
1 hour, 4 minutes, 50 seconds
Both the sheriff and the deputy saw it and I believe the sheriff's wife was also present. Um so that that was that
1:04:58
1 hour, 4 minutes, 58 seconds
particular incident and others saw similar things. So um that doesn't sound like a drone to me. That that's that's a
Chapter 26: Drone incursions around military bases
1:05:07
1 hour, 5 minutes, 7 seconds
UAP. That's where we're getting into anomalous kinds of behavior. And uh again, after months of activity with
1:05:16
1 hour, 5 minutes, 16 seconds
special sensors being brought in by the governor of California, with all the federal agencies being involved, not a
1:05:23
1 hour, 5 minutes, 23 seconds
single operator was found. They were stopping trucks trying to see if somebody was in the back operating these things or had, you know, gear in the
1:05:32
1 hour, 5 minutes, 32 seconds
back that might be related to to this kind of activity. They found no no hint of of any operators. None of these
1:05:40
1 hour, 5 minutes, 40 seconds
things crashed. None of them malfunctioned.
1:05:43
1 hour, 5 minutes, 43 seconds
Uh and this went on for months, literally two or really about three months of of heavy activity. And then we
1:05:51
1 hour, 5 minutes, 51 seconds
started seeing after that a further shift to the east in air bases like Langley Air Force Base and then after
1:05:59
1 hour, 5 minutes, 59 seconds
that Barksdale Wright Patterson bases in England and in NATO territory the Middle East. This has been going on
1:06:09
1 hour, 6 minutes, 9 seconds
throughout the uh full range of DoD uh global the DoD global enterprise. Um
1:06:19
1 hour, 6 minutes, 19 seconds
it's it's incredible. Um the Langley event was 17 consecutive days of overflights. The Air Force could not
1:06:28
1 hour, 6 minutes, 28 seconds
identify these things. They still don't know where they were coming from. They don't know who was operating them. They ended up pulling an entire squadron of
1:06:36
1 hour, 6 minutes, 36 seconds
our most advanced aircraft out of that air base because they didn't feel they could fly them safely.
1:06:43
1 hour, 6 minutes, 43 seconds
Um, so you have the Air Force unable to protect its own airspace at the Air Combat Command. And again, uh, instead
1:06:51
1 hour, 6 minutes, 51 seconds
of taking my word for it, I would identify some other sources you can see, including a very good episode on 60
1:06:59
1 hour, 6 minutes, 59 seconds
Minutes in which they interviewed a couple of Air Force four stars. And one of them in response to a question said,
1:07:06
1 hour, 7 minutes, 6 seconds
"Yeah, our hair is on fire about this. I mean, they're were really baffled and upset and they didn't have much to say.
1:07:14
1 hour, 7 minutes, 14 seconds
They were just kind of blown away. It's it's a good episode to see if you're interested in that in that topic. Um,
1:07:21
1 hour, 7 minutes, 21 seconds
and it's shocking because uh we look at what's happening in Russia and the Ukraine. And even if it's nothing more
1:07:29
1 hour, 7 minutes, 29 seconds
than conventional drones, I mean, as as Senator Rubio once said on the Hill, I don't know if it's worse if it's aliens or the Chinese. Um, [clears throat]
1:07:38
1 hour, 7 minutes, 38 seconds
that's the way I think a number of members feel about it. But either way, we need to get to the bottom of it and and find out who it is and and what
1:07:46
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their intentions are. And so that's where we're coming from.
1:07:50
1 hour, 7 minutes, 50 seconds
Absolutely. Well, so many fascinating stories about out there and I hope that we get some more clarity on on all of them and uh get to the bottom of this.
1:07:59
1 hour, 7 minutes, 59 seconds
But for now, I just wanted to thank you, Chris, for your time today. Uh, it's been great following all of the work that you've done over the years. Um, thank you so much for that, for your
1:08:08
1 hour, 8 minutes, 8 seconds
efforts in getting more truth out to the public. Really appreciate it and it was a a great pleasure to speak with you.
1:08:13
1 hour, 8 minutes, 13 seconds
Well, thank you so much. Um, we have a uh secure uh email uh for anyone who is
1:08:20
1 hour, 8 minutes, 20 seconds
a whistleblower who wants to get in touch with us. Uh, it's on the website.
1:08:24
1 hour, 8 minutes, 24 seconds
Uh, I should have written it down before. It's a um proton email and uh I can get that uh to anyone who wants it
Chapter 27: Secure email for whistleblowers
1:08:33
1 hour, 8 minutes, 33 seconds
or I think you can find it on our website. But I would encourage people that have information to come forward.
1:08:39
1 hour, 8 minutes, 39 seconds
We've had a very good track record so far in uh helping people and helping them them to avoid uh possible pitfalls.
1:08:48
1 hour, 8 minutes, 48 seconds
And uh thank you again for your time. It's great pleasure. Send me that email.
1:08:52
1 hour, 8 minutes, 52 seconds
I'll throw it up on the screen. we'll add it to the description so that everybody can uh have access to that and potentially send you what they've got.
1:09:00
1 hour, 9 minutes
Wonderful. Thank you so much, Rob.
1:09:02
1 hour, 9 minutes, 2 seconds
Excellent. All right. Thank you everybody as usual for watching and I'll see you all next time.