They are real, [music] you know, flesh and and bone bodies. What these bodies are is the big question. And that's why
0:07
7 seconds
the the mystery remains. You know, you hear hybrids, extraterrestrials, uh genetic defects on humans, um you
0:16
16 seconds
know, um time travelers. I mean, I've heard it all. Maybe they were visited.
0:21
21 seconds
Um maybe they wanted to look like things that were they saw and and were visiting them. And this has been a common theory with the NASCAL lines for decades.
0:33
33 seconds
Hello everybody, welcome to Watch Mojo and the Unveiled podcast. I'm your host Rob and today's guest is Joshua McDow.
0:40
40 seconds
He is a lawyer who is actively involved in the legal and investigative efforts surrounding the Nazca mummies which have become a subject of great controversy
0:49
49 seconds
not only within UAP circles but also the broader scientific community. So I'm really looking forward to speaking to him about that in depth. Welcome to the show, Josh. Thanks for joining us.
0:59
59 seconds
Thanks, Rob. Happy to be here.
1:01
1 minute, 1 second
Um, for anybody who isn't familiar with this, what are the Nazca mummies and why have they become such a topic of intense debate?
Chapter 2: What Are the Nazca Mummies?
1:08
1 minute, 8 seconds
Yeah, it's a great question. So, the mummies themselves are desiccated bodies uh that were found in 2016 in southern
1:17
1 minute, 17 seconds
Peru um in the Nazca region, which is uh Eeka is one of the big cities down there. It's south of Lima, inland a
1:26
1 minute, 26 seconds
little bit, and there's been a [clears throat] lot of mummies found.
1:29
1 minute, 29 seconds
It's hard to keep track of exactly how many there are. I've seen quite a few, but they're mummies that I'll for the
1:36
1 minute, 36 seconds
most part have elongated craniums, um, three fingers. We talk about tridactally, so three fingers, three
1:44
1 minute, 44 seconds
toes. Uh, they're covered in dietmacous earth. And some of them have some very distinctive characteristics as well, different sizes, morphologies.
1:55
1 minute, 55 seconds
Um, and there's a lot of them. And these were found uh allegedly in a cave and uh by a grave robber who has sold some,
2:04
2 minutes, 4 seconds
sent some to a university, and they've ended up on uh the four corners of the earth actually.
Chapter 3: How Josh McDowell Became Involved
2:10
2 minutes, 10 seconds
Um, as a lawyer, how did you personally get involved in this and and what is it that drew your interest to them? Yeah.
2:17
2 minutes, 17 seconds
So, I wasn't really involved in my professional capacity, Rob. What happened was I was just on social media
2:25
2 minutes, 25 seconds
one day, probably X, Twitter, something like that, scrolling and I had seen Haime Mosan. He's, for those who don't
2:32
2 minutes, 32 seconds
know, he's a Mexican reporter, um, who had done a congressional hearing in Mexico about the bodies, and he brought
2:40
2 minutes, 40 seconds
them in glass cases. It's kind of famous if if you follow the mummies at all, this hearing. and I hadn't seen it before. Saw a clip of it and then
2:49
2 minutes, 49 seconds
watched the whole video. Went and found it online and it really piqu my interest to see these bodies about two foot tall
2:56
2 minutes, 56 seconds
bodies covered in this um grayish whitish dietmacous earth. It just means like a clay that's got datoms which are
3:06
3 minutes, 6 seconds
you know little fossilized sea creatures in it. And so I watched it and at the end of it he says, "We welcome forensic
3:14
3 minutes, 14 seconds
experts from all over the world to come view these and verify that these are real." And so intrigued, I called my
3:23
3 minutes, 23 seconds
father. And my dad is a former president of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences. He's a forensic odontologist
3:30
3 minutes, 30 seconds
as and he's been doing forensics as as long as I've been alive. Called him, sent him the link and said, "Take a look at this. What do you think?"
3:38
3 minutes, 38 seconds
And uh so he watched it, called me back and said um hey this is something interesting. Why don't we go take a
3:46
3 minutes, 46 seconds
look? So I emailed Haime Mosan and we were down in Peru just about a month a month month or so later.
Chapter 4: Examining the Bodies in Peru
3:52
3 minutes, 52 seconds
So what did you guys do once you got to Peru? So what we did is actually you know my dad's a forensic odontologist
4:00
4 minutes
and so first things first he wanted to bring forensic anthropologist and a pathologist and so Dr. Caruso uh is a
4:09
4 minutes, 9 seconds
forensic pathologist he's the medical examiner for the city and county of Denver and Dr. William Rodriguez, who's a forensic anthropologist for the state
4:17
4 minutes, 17 seconds
of Maryland, came with us because we thought that was important to bring other experts in in different fields to
4:24
4 minutes, 24 seconds
review these or to view these bodies and to take a look at them. And so what we did is initially we went down to the
4:31
4 minutes, 31 seconds
University of EKA or Unica is the short form of what they call the university uh where they have several bodies there.
4:38
4 minutes, 38 seconds
They've got four bodies uh at Unica and then we also saw some some other bodies in Lima as well.
Chapter 5: CT Scans, X-Rays and DNA Testing
4:47
4 minutes, 47 seconds
What kind of science has been uh performed on these bodies and what's what's the verdict been uh for the most part? If you if you look in mainstream
4:56
4 minutes, 56 seconds
media sources, it seems like they've been widely claimed claimed to be debunked as anything uh of extraterrestrial origin. But there's
5:04
5 minutes, 4 seconds
some people who insist that there is something here. these are not human remains. Um what what is your stance on it?
5:11
5 minutes, 11 seconds
Yeah. And so there's a broad question. Let me kind of take that piece by piece.
5:15
5 minutes, 15 seconds
And so there's been a lot of things done so far, Rob. There has been some limited DNA. I know some's been done in China,
5:22
5 minutes, 22 seconds
uh the United States, uh different locations, and a lot of the results are are kind of quizzical to be honest with
5:30
5 minutes, 30 seconds
you. is I I've read through them all and there's things like bonobo, chimp, green
5:37
5 minutes, 37 seconds
bean, things that just don't make sense that that we've seen. And you know, it could be something to do
5:44
5 minutes, 44 seconds
with how the bodies have been preserved, that they've been maybe wrapped in green bean leaves. I don't know. I mean, we know that there's no great apes, no
5:53
5 minutes, 53 seconds
bonobos or chimps that have ever lived in the Americas. And so, that doesn't really make sense why that would show up. I don't want to discount it, but um
6:02
6 minutes, 2 seconds
it's quizzical. Um we've done personally while we were there, we've done fllororoscopy, which is kind of like a live X-ray. We've done CT uh on the
6:12
6 minutes, 12 seconds
bodies and that was the main thing that we've done um with what was available in Peru. We actually they were at a lab and
6:21
6 minutes, 21 seconds
we ced them and they also brought in a fllororoscopy machine into the University of Eeka and we were able to do that live X-ray or fllororoscope on
6:30
6 minutes, 30 seconds
the bodies to look at their bone structure and you know the next question was well have they been debunked as
Chapter 6: Have the Mummies Been Debunked?
6:37
6 minutes, 37 seconds
extraterrestrial and it's funny because I think a lot of people look at the the mummies through an extraterrestrial lens
6:46
6 minutes, 46 seconds
that's not the lens that I have Uh personally the you know a lot of the the podcast and a lot of the interest I
6:54
6 minutes, 54 seconds
think comes from the UFO or extraterrestrial community and the way I look at it the way my father looks at it
7:02
7 minutes, 2 seconds
is through uh you know it's a forensic mystery. We want to solve the mystery of of what these are you know the the facts
7:11
7 minutes, 11 seconds
that are really interesting about these bodies. there's different types or different morphologies and so we have to take them each individually to talk
7:19
7 minutes, 19 seconds
about what the different things are but they all have like I said three fingers and three toes they're all covered in
7:27
7 minutes, 27 seconds
dietmacious earth um but beyond that they're widely varied some are as small
7:35
7 minutes, 35 seconds
as maybe 18 in 16 in somewhere in there and some are you know humansized bodies
7:41
7 minutes, 41 seconds
52 53 most most of them are in a almost like a fetal position or a burial position that's common with uh Peruvian
7:49
7 minutes, 49 seconds
mummies. Um but the idea of the burial uh excuse me the the manner in
7:58
7 minutes, 58 seconds
which they were buried or found is is unique. The the dietimmacous earth
8:04
8 minutes, 4 seconds
covering is unique and uh we don't see that anywhere else. Certainly there's a
8:11
8 minutes, 11 seconds
many many examples of bodies that are um desiccated uh preserved bodies from from
8:21
8 minutes, 21 seconds
Eca from the Incan time period from the Wari time period um you know I'm going back in time the the Nazka time period
8:30
8 minutes, 30 seconds
and and the Paracas time period we we see and and there's great examples in museums in historical sites all over
8:38
8 minutes, 38 seconds
Peru that have these um desiccated preserved bodies. But in um the manner
8:46
8 minutes, 46 seconds
that these have been preserved, there's no other examples that I know of and I've looked uh for that. Um so those are
8:53
8 minutes, 53 seconds
the things that are strange about them, Rob, if you will, is the head shape. Um the orbitals are big on some of the bodies, bigger than you'd expect to see.
9:04
9 minutes, 4 seconds
The fingerprints are not consistent with human fingerprints. They're mostly straight instead of what we see on our
9:13
9 minutes, 13 seconds
fingerprints, which are loops, whirls, and arches. Um, so it's another oddity.
9:18
9 minutes, 18 seconds
There's a lot of things that are that are strange and and our involvement has been to help, you know, help any way we
9:26
9 minutes, 26 seconds
can to solve the mystery. We're willing to work with Peruvian doctors. There's a lot of um Mexican doctors and
9:34
9 minutes, 34 seconds
investigators involved. We're willing to work with the Ministry of Culture and and whoever uh wants help. We're we're
9:42
9 minutes, 42 seconds
wanting to do it, but we want to do it the right way. Um trade in these bodies and and mummies and ancient Peruvian
9:49
9 minutes, 49 seconds
artifacts, there's a lot of illegal trade in it, and it's something that we certainly don't agree with or want to promote in any way, shape, or form. For
9:58
9 minutes, 58 seconds
us, it's important that this um testing is done ethically, that it's done
10:04
10 minutes, 4 seconds
scientifically, and that openly so that other experts can peer review the
10:11
10 minutes, 11 seconds
results once they come in and make sure that everything was done the right way.
Chapter 7: Challenges With the Peruvian Government
10:16
10 minutes, 16 seconds
Right. And because this is kind of a topic of international interest, has there been any um difficulties in dealing with the Peruvian government
10:24
10 minutes, 24 seconds
seeing as this is like an archaeological finding that is, you know, rooted in Peru or how how has it been navigating
10:32
10 minutes, 32 seconds
that landscape in terms of like doing research but involving other countries into this? Well, it's, you know, it's
10:40
10 minutes, 40 seconds
certainly welcome. Experts, um, forensic experts, scientists, uh, from all different expertises or,
10:49
10 minutes, 49 seconds
you know, uh, fields are are welcome to to join and to help in any way they can.
10:57
10 minutes, 57 seconds
But one of the holdups, Rob, is that we're dealing with bodies that aren't supposed to be moved out of the out of
11:05
11 minutes, 5 seconds
the country. and some of the testing in Peru, uh, they've got a lot of great techniques, but some of the things are limited or they're not maybe
11:13
11 minutes, 13 seconds
state-of-the-art like we would have in Europe or the United States. So, in November of last year in 2024, we were
11:22
11 minutes, 22 seconds
uh my father, myself, uh, Mr. Melan, several of the the doctors, Dr. uh Zay
11:30
11 minutes, 30 seconds
appeared in front of the Peruvian Congress to testify to their uh commission on um their cultural
11:37
11 minutes, 37 seconds
commission to request permission to do tests that certain tests that aren't available in Peru that would be
11:43
11 minutes, 43 seconds
available outside uh the United States or Europe that could determine in fact what these are because there are tests
11:51
11 minutes, 51 seconds
that we can learn what they are. They're available. Well, it's just some of these are not readily available in Peru.
Chapter 8: The Leading Theories About Their Origins
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11 minutes, 58 seconds
Based on the findings that have been uh like deduced up until this point, what are some of the going theories on the origins of these mummies?
12:06
12 minutes, 6 seconds
So, there's a lot of theories on it. I mean, it depends on who you talk to. And so, you know, some people say, you know, the
12:14
12 minutes, 14 seconds
the common skeptical belief is that some of the bodies are constructed um from different animal parts. If
12:23
12 minutes, 23 seconds
you've done research on it, a lot of people say, "Oh, they're llama skulls and different kinds of mammal bones."
12:29
12 minutes, 29 seconds
Um, another common skeptical theory is that these are traditional mummies that were found in Peru, some of the bodies,
12:37
12 minutes, 37 seconds
and that they were modified, that they had fingers or toes removed. That's one of the the the main skeptical theory I
12:44
12 minutes, 44 seconds
think um that I've heard. Um, a lot of people think, and it depends on who you ask, Rob, is, you know, you hear
12:51
12 minutes, 51 seconds
hybrids, extraterrestrials, uh, genetic defects on humans, um, you
12:58
12 minutes, 58 seconds
know, um, time travelers. I mean, I've heard it all. And, and me personally, I I don't want to ascribe to a theory. I
13:07
13 minutes, 7 seconds
try to keep an open mind through this. I I think there's going to be a prosaic and and practical explanation when when
13:16
13 minutes, 16 seconds
we get to the bottom of it. I I think AAM's razor would tell us that there's something that's going to make a lot of sense. But as we look at the bodies now,
13:25
13 minutes, 25 seconds
there are so many things that are oddities or strange that we don't have in the fossil record or we've seen anywhere else. And there's the biggest
13:33
13 minutes, 33 seconds
problem I think is that the the provenance and provenience of the bodies is we don't
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13 minutes, 42 seconds
know it. They were found likely in 2016, maybe earlier. Um the grave robber who
13:49
13 minutes, 49 seconds
who found them, who claims he found them, um says he found him in a cave near the near Palpa, which is just south
13:58
13 minutes, 58 seconds
of Eeka in the Nazca region. And he says he found them in a cave. They were all in the same cave. And he pulled out all these different bodies, these specimens.
14:08
14 minutes, 8 seconds
Um, and he won't tell where the cave is.
14:12
14 minutes, 12 seconds
He was prosecuted for grave robbing. Uh, received a sentence, was convicted, um, gave a location, but I don't think
14:21
14 minutes, 21 seconds
that's the location of where the bodies were were found. Um, and we don't have a location. And so the archaeologists
14:27
14 minutes, 27 seconds
haven't been able to go and research and do digs to look for other things. Um, you know, is there ceramics? Is there
14:36
14 minutes, 36 seconds
tools? Is there some form of writing? Is there something of of that nature that we could look at to learn more about these bodies? And that site doesn't exist. I don't think we'll ever find it.
Chapter 9: Which Nazca Bodies Were Proven Fake?
14:47
14 minutes, 47 seconds
That's too bad because it seems like that's a central would be a key element of unraveling this mystery. And not only
14:55
14 minutes, 55 seconds
that, but because there is no site to examine, it also opens the door for skeptics to claim that this is a hoax.
15:04
15 minutes, 4 seconds
I've heard that, you know, these might have been uh made during modern times, that they're not actually ancient. Um, what do you think about that?
15:13
15 minutes, 13 seconds
Well, I mean, we have to keep an open mind. Um, we know that there are some uh let's call them bodies. I don't I I
15:21
15 minutes, 21 seconds
think bodies is a liberal use of the word, but I'm going to say bodies here.
15:25
15 minutes, 25 seconds
There are some bodies that have been made um or just put together. A a great example of this are the bodies that Dr.
15:34
15 minutes, 34 seconds
Flavia Estrada showed um in January of last year. He did a press conference, international media came and he showed
15:42
15 minutes, 42 seconds
these two bodies that were dressed in traditional Peruvian gear, you know, a yellow dress and, you know, sandals.
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15 minutes, 50 seconds
etc. and said, "Hey, we've researched these. We've looked at them and they're made of llama bones and and modern glue
16:00
16 minutes
and um chicken bones and uh all sorts of other things. Uh one of the tests found
16:08
16 minutes, 8 seconds
that there was human semen on one of the bodies. Um, so a lot of really strange
16:15
16 minutes, 15 seconds
findings and we know that those those bodies are fake. We know that those were
16:21
16 minutes, 21 seconds
made by uh a man, his name is Manuel Caseris from that region who was selling them as folk art. Um, I think he was
16:31
16 minutes, 31 seconds
kind of benefiting or riding the the mummy train to sell um, folk art um, for
16:40
16 minutes, 40 seconds
some money and they are I mean he the Dr. Estrada is exactly right. Those bodies in particular are made of glue
16:49
16 minutes, 49 seconds
and you know different animal bones and things of that nature. Those were never once living creatures. The some of the
16:56
16 minutes, 56 seconds
things that we've seen are certainly very different than those. They're you know many different morphologies. I
17:05
17 minutes, 5 seconds
would say six maybe seven different types of bodies arranging in all different sizes and shapes. Some look
17:13
17 minutes, 13 seconds
more birdlike. Some are uh almost exactly humanoid except for the fingers, toes, and some a couple other little
17:21
17 minutes, 21 seconds
features. We talked about the elongated heads. Um, so yes, some of the bodies have been debunked. Some of the bodies
Chapter 10: The Specimens That Remain Unexplained
17:30
17 minutes, 30 seconds
are are still a genuine mystery. And there are a lot of bodies, Rob. A lot of bodies. I've personally seen um in
17:40
17 minutes, 40 seconds
person more than a dozen and I've seen photos of of many, many more. And I can
17:47
17 minutes, 47 seconds
tell you when we we say the bodies are are real, they're tangible physical things, these aren't, you know,
17:53
17 minutes, 53 seconds
photoshopped or, you know, made in some, you know, Hollywood lab. These are, you know, real bodies that we've touched,
18:02
18 minutes, 2 seconds
we've x-rayed, we've cted, um, with with experts to look at them. And so they are
18:09
18 minutes, 9 seconds
real, you know, flesh and and bone bodies. What these bodies are is the big question. And that's why the the mystery
18:16
18 minutes, 16 seconds
remains. Now, you know, all that being said, there's a lot to this. There's grave robbers. These have been changing
18:25
18 minutes, 25 seconds
hands. They've been sold for a lot of money. There's financial gain, financial interest. And you know, it's hard
18:33
18 minutes, 33 seconds
because that makes our job a lot more difficult where our position is let's test them. Let's find out where they are
18:42
18 minutes, 42 seconds
or what they are, excuse me, and then we can decide, not us to decide, but the Ministry of Culture and the Peruvian people can decide what the best location
18:50
18 minutes, 50 seconds
is for them. Is it a museum? Is it a sacred uh site in Nazka? Uh is it rearial? I don't know. That's not my
18:59
18 minutes, 59 seconds
area of expertise, but I think um the Ministry of Culture and and the Peruvian government should decide the ultimate resting place for these bodies.
Chapter 11: The Different Types of Bodies
19:10
19 minutes, 10 seconds
You provide a little more detail on the different types of morphologies that you mentioned. Um some being humanized, some
19:16
19 minutes, 16 seconds
being like 2 feet tall or or smaller. Um like what what do the different types of bodies represent in terms of possible
19:24
19 minutes, 24 seconds
origins for them? um and and and theories that are going sure none of the bodies I've seen have any corollaries in the fossil record.
19:36
19 minutes, 36 seconds
I've none of these bodies are similar to anything else we've seen. So it's it's
19:43
19 minutes, 43 seconds
hard to say, oh this is a you know an X or a Y. You know, the I've used the example before of a platypus where it's
19:52
19 minutes, 52 seconds
something that is new that is very strange that has certain features that
19:58
19 minutes, 58 seconds
aren't expected and you know up until you know they were brought to England and they were researched they thought
20:06
20 minutes, 6 seconds
that they were stitched together you know a duck bill and a beaver body and you know they lactate and they lay eggs
20:16
20 minutes, 16 seconds
and they have poison in their uh you know their claws. It's just very very strange and so different and maybe
20:23
20 minutes, 23 seconds
that's what we're looking at here. Maybe we are looking at something that's brand new. Um but that's that's why we test them. So let's talk about it. So number
Chapter 12: Maria, Montserrat and the Human-Sized Mummies
20:32
20 minutes, 32 seconds
one there's bodies like Maria uh Monserat. They've named them all and these are very humanoid bodies with a
20:40
20 minutes, 40 seconds
few different um morphology. So once again uh elongated cran craniums, three fingers, three toes. Uh some of them
20:49
20 minutes, 49 seconds
have orbitals uh so eye sockets that are a little bigger. None of them have
20:54
20 minutes, 54 seconds
[snorts]
20:54
20 minutes, 54 seconds
uh oracles a pa you know uh exterior ears. The noses are almost non-existent.
21:01
21 minutes, 1 second
But um that's not uncommon with mummies.
21:03
21 minutes, 3 seconds
We actually see that in other mummified bodies. Some of those things the the nose and the ear uh being preserved with
21:11
21 minutes, 11 seconds
the soft tissue the large orbitals the fingerprints uh the tridactally we don't have examples of that. Now the elongated
21:19
21 minutes, 19 seconds
craniums we do have examples of we see that over thousands of years we see that in North America we see that in some
21:27
21 minutes, 27 seconds
places in Europe we see it all over South America. In fact uh the paracas those are the that's the culture right
21:36
21 minutes, 36 seconds
before the Nazka. So Paracus is about 800 BC to about 100 BC. Nazca we're looking at about 100 BC to about 800 AD.
21:46
21 minutes, 46 seconds
Um and both of them commonly both of those cultures would do cranial modification. Uh they would use boards
21:55
21 minutes, 55 seconds
or um different different materials to uh change the morphology or or shape of
22:02
22 minutes, 2 seconds
the head. And in in fact about 60% of of Nazka and Paracus bodies or mummies that
22:09
22 minutes, 9 seconds
have been found known ones um those did show or exhibit uh the modified cranium.
22:16
22 minutes, 16 seconds
So it's not uncommon. It looks very strange when you see it. It it's quite shocking to see a cranium that is so
22:26
22 minutes, 26 seconds
elongated, I guess, uh or misshapen. But they did that. It's something that when a baby was born, they would, you know,
22:35
22 minutes, 35 seconds
use boards or different materials to to bind their head to to shape it. So, that's not super uncommon. That that is
22:44
22 minutes, 44 seconds
u normal, I guess, for that culture in that time period. Now, the bodies have been uh carbon dated, several of the
22:52
22 minutes, 52 seconds
bodies, and we actually see a wide range in in carbon dating. we see, you know,
22:59
22 minutes, 59 seconds
about a thousand years old to 17, 18800 years old. Carbon dating is very tricky.
23:05
23 minutes, 5 seconds
If there's any kind of contamination, it can mess up the times or the dating of the bodies. And so, we didn't do it. Um,
23:13
23 minutes, 13 seconds
those were done before we were involved, but I have reviewed it. And that's generally what we're looking at for carbon dating. So, that's one. And those
23:22
23 minutes, 22 seconds
are the bodies that you see a lot of the time in um newspapers and and online. These bodies
23:31
23 minutes, 31 seconds
like Maria and Monserat. Monserat is pregnant. Uh there is a a fetus in her
23:38
23 minutes, 38 seconds
womb. Uh and so that's a very interesting thing. Monzerat was just found about a year ago and we've looked
23:46
23 minutes, 46 seconds
at the the CTs and and the fluoroscopy on her and she certainly does have a have a fetus in her belly. Um there's
Chapter 13: The Two-Foot-Tall “Grey Alien” Bodies
23:54
23 minutes, 54 seconds
other bodies that are um they call them the 60 cimeter bodies. Those are about 2 feet tall and they are the ones that a lot of
24:03
24 minutes, 3 seconds
people have seen as well. Those are the common ones similar to the ones that Mr.
24:07
24 minutes, 7 seconds
Mosan had at the Mexican congressional hearing. If you've seen that, you'll know what I'm talking about.
24:14
24 minutes, 14 seconds
They look very similar to like a gray alien type body. Um they're thin, uh
24:23
24 minutes, 23 seconds
spinly legs, spinly arms, small heads, you know, yay big. And um they look very
24:32
24 minutes, 32 seconds
very odd. There's um and they they look humanoid in the fact that they, you know, look like they would have been
24:41
24 minutes, 41 seconds
bipedal. Um but they are, you know, the rib uh and
24:48
24 minutes, 48 seconds
rib count's different. They only have one bone. They don't have a radius in an ulna. All of them have a single bone in
24:55
24 minutes, 55 seconds
the forearm and in the lower leg. They have a lot of things that are different.
24:59
24 minutes, 59 seconds
the, you know, forman magnum, which is the hole in your in your skull that your um neck goes into is in the middle of
25:08
25 minutes, 8 seconds
their skull instead of in the back. Um, a lot of things that are very different.
25:14
25 minutes, 14 seconds
They don't have a mouth, per se. Um, some oddities there. There's other
Chapter 14: The Strange Bird-Like Specimens
25:20
25 minutes, 20 seconds
bodies that um I've I've seen called um insecttoids. I I don't think that's the
25:28
25 minutes, 28 seconds
best term for them. They are to me they're more birdlike. They um are 18 20
25:35
25 minutes, 35 seconds
inches tall for the most part. Uh some of them have these small wings, proto wings or fins on the back, maybe
25:45
25 minutes, 45 seconds
two to three inches long. Um they're also tridactyl and you can find pictures
25:51
25 minutes, 51 seconds
of those online as well. Su uh is one of the names of the bodies that they've given to one of these. Um I think
26:00
26 minutes
they're more birdlike. They're very strange. They're thin, lightweight. Um
26:07
26 minutes, 7 seconds
I've seen one, I've held one. Uh they don't weigh very much at all, but maybe a pound or two. And to me, they don't
26:15
26 minutes, 15 seconds
look like they could swim or fly. They certainly couldn't walk. And we don't have anything like that in the fossil record. So, they're they're very
26:24
26 minutes, 24 seconds
strange. They're very strange. And I I understand why people are skeptical of these things. Um, you know, I go in with
26:31
26 minutes, 31 seconds
a skeptical mindset as well. I just I want to be open-minded because I know a lot of people when they have a a lens
26:41
26 minutes, 41 seconds
that they look through these things, they there's maybe a confirmation bias, Rob, where people say, "I think these
26:48
26 minutes, 48 seconds
are aliens or time travelers or hybrids or or fakes, and I'm going to look for the evidence to show that they're X, Y,
26:56
26 minutes, 56 seconds
or Z." And you know, when we've gone down there, we've tried to say, let's keep an open mind and let's follow the
27:04
27 minutes, 4 seconds
science and let's see what the science tells us because I think I it's a very answerable question as to what these
27:11
27 minutes, 11 seconds
are. And do I have ideas? Do I have theories? Of course I do. But um I want
27:18
27 minutes, 18 seconds
to keep an open mind because I don't want to be a victim of confirmation bias. I don't I just want to look at what the evidence shows and then we can determine what they are from there.
Chapter 15: Following the Science Without Assumptions
27:29
27 minutes, 29 seconds
So, you've gone into this more or less from a per a place of zero assumptions um at prior to like starting the investigations. That's what that's what I'm understanding.
27:38
27 minutes, 38 seconds
Yeah, I I think that's fair. I mean, you know, my dad and and the other docs we went down with, I mean, we had, you
27:46
27 minutes, 46 seconds
know, this conversation beforehand is certainly there's there's curiosity and and we all looked at, you know, scans
27:54
27 minutes, 54 seconds
and and things before we'd gone down and we' done our prep work and, you know, obviously we discussed ideas of thoughts
28:03
28 minutes, 3 seconds
and what these might be and what evidence we would look for, what testing we'd like to see done. I think that's part of the scientific method and that's
28:12
28 minutes, 12 seconds
part of the process. It's also human nature to do those things. But our big position was let's keep an open mind.
28:20
28 minutes, 20 seconds
Let's go look at them and from there we can decide hey these are the tests that need to be done to get definitive
28:28
28 minutes, 28 seconds
answers. And so that was where we come from. It wasn't to prove or disprove. it was just to look at the evidence and
28:37
28 minutes, 37 seconds
suggest certain testing modalities that could be done to get to the bottom of it.
Chapter 16: Is There Anything Else Like Them?
28:42
28 minutes, 42 seconds
Is this an unprecedented case or are there comparable discoveries from across the world that you can of of mummified remains that maybe look similar or have
28:51
28 minutes, 51 seconds
similarities that we can draw comparisons to that you're aware of?
28:55
28 minutes, 55 seconds
There's really not there's this is uh you know really a a suie generous or a case of first impression. There's
29:03
29 minutes, 3 seconds
nothing like this. And I've looked um that's, you know, obviously we've had uh
29:09
29 minutes, 9 seconds
mummified remains in in Egypt and and different parts of Europe, all over South America. There there are certainly
29:17
29 minutes, 17 seconds
desiccated remains or or mummified bodies, but ones that look like this, no. Tridactyl is and once again for the
29:26
29 minutes, 26 seconds
listeners or for the viewers, three fingers and three toes. It just means three try. Um, we don't have that.
29:34
29 minutes, 34 seconds
There's no, and really there's not any great examples in mammals of that either. I guess there's a three-toed sloth. There's maybe one or two other
29:43
29 minutes, 43 seconds
things, but these bodies are incredibly different morphologically from from a sloth, you
29:51
29 minutes, 51 seconds
know, an example of a three-toed creature. There are examples of of humans that have genetic defects uh that
29:58
29 minutes, 58 seconds
result in you know two fingers or three fingers um polyactally or or
30:07
30 minutes, 7 seconds
ectoidactally and there's a good example of uh the vdoma tribe in uh Africa that is a small
30:16
30 minutes, 16 seconds
isolated population that uh has a genetic defect where they're born with feet uh and hands that have two or three
30:25
30 minutes, 25 seconds
fingers that um one of the nicknames is the ostrichfooted people because their their feet and hands do especially their
30:33
30 minutes, 33 seconds
feet look kind of like an ostrich where they're they're branched and and they're a very different morphology. It's it's a
30:40
30 minutes, 40 seconds
genetic defect because it's a small population. It's called genetic drift where a lot of people in this population are born with this same birth defect.
30:50
30 minutes, 50 seconds
And so there's examples of that in different parts of the world where families have have um genetic defects
30:58
30 minutes, 58 seconds
certainly. But what's weird is these bodies, they're they're so different from one another, but they all have three fingers and three toes. It doesn't
31:06
31 minutes, 6 seconds
really make sense. I don't know why that is. Uh but we don't have mummified bodies that have been mummified in this
31:13
31 minutes, 13 seconds
manner either. So desiccated, dried, um stored in a cave and covered in this
31:22
31 minutes, 22 seconds
this gray powdery dietmacous earth. It's a desicant. It also has protected them
31:29
31 minutes, 29 seconds
uh for thousands of years from bugs and um different um you know environmental
31:39
31 minutes, 39 seconds
issues potentially. I mean, they've been in a cave, so it's kept them dry and kept them preserved. But we don't even have Peruvian mummies, Rob, that have
31:48
31 minutes, 48 seconds
been uh preserved in this manner. We don't have any examples of this. Um Dr.
31:52
31 minutes, 52 seconds
Rodriguez, who came with us, the anthropologist, has studied mummies in in various different parts of the world and and he indicated to me that he's
32:00
32 minutes
never seen mummies in this fashion. And and from our research, we've never seen that either. There's a lot of, like I
32:08
32 minutes, 8 seconds
said, desiccated bodies that are stored in different ways. Wrapped in textiles is a common way, but in a cave covered
32:18
32 minutes, 18 seconds
in this earth, we've never seen that these. But all of these bodies that we've seen that are uh provided by this this uh grave robber, his name's Mario.
32:29
32 minutes, 29 seconds
It's a nickname. Um were all found in the same fashion, covered in this dietimmacous earth and desiccated bodies. What do we know about the Nazca
Chapter 17: What the Nazca Culture Can Tell Us
32:38
32 minutes, 38 seconds
culture of the time that might provide some clues as to what these bodies really are?
32:43
32 minutes, 43 seconds
We don't know a ton. They didn't have a written language, right? So, what we know is from archaeological digs. We
32:51
32 minutes, 51 seconds
know that in South America, they're not in the same, you know, we talk about the
32:58
32 minutes, 58 seconds
Bronze Age and the Stone Age, etc., the Iron Age. They're they're different.
33:03
33 minutes, 3 seconds
They're, you know, lithic or kind of stone age and then we go into a ceramic age. We know that the Nazka were a
33:11
33 minutes, 11 seconds
ceramic age people. We know that uh they had different holy sites. We know that
33:19
33 minutes, 19 seconds
they used um like an adobe brick to build. We have sites like Chailla, which
33:27
33 minutes, 27 seconds
is a a famous uh burial site in the Nazka region that you can visit. And you can actually see mummies today. You go
33:35
33 minutes, 35 seconds
out into the desert and they're in these uh underground. They're open air now about I don't know 10 or 12 feet deep.
33:45
33 minutes, 45 seconds
Some of them are covered, some of them are open where you can go and see uh some Nazka mummies that are known uh in
33:53
33 minutes, 53 seconds
archaeological sites in Peru. And so we learn a lot from these. A lot of them are covered in textiles. They're wrapped up. Um some of them are found with uh
34:02
34 minutes, 2 seconds
heads, uh decapitated heads. Um and some of them have different things through their lips or through their eyes. Um but nothing like the bodies that we have.
34:14
34 minutes, 14 seconds
Most of them face east in burials. And so these were found as part of a
34:21
34 minutes, 21 seconds
an uh an archaeological site. And so that's what we know about them. We know
Chapter 18: Ancient Art Depicting Three-Fingered Beings
34:28
34 minutes, 28 seconds
that they we have a lot of pottery and ceramics. And so we can see, you know, we can learn from their designs. And one
34:37
34 minutes, 37 seconds
of the interesting things is in some of these designs in both um pictographs. So
34:44
34 minutes, 44 seconds
pictographs are paintings on rocks. Then we have petroglyphs which are etchings
34:51
34 minutes, 51 seconds
on rocks or carvings. And then we also have geoglyphs and these are important.
34:56
34 minutes, 56 seconds
So geoglyphs in the Nazca region are these huge um what we call the Nazca lines. These
35:03
35 minutes, 3 seconds
are giant images in the desert that have been made by removing stones to create lines. And so when people hear the word
35:12
35 minutes, 12 seconds
Nazka, oftentimes they think of the Nazka lines. And the Nazca lines aren't just lines. They're a lot of designs.
35:19
35 minutes, 19 seconds
And so we see hummingbirds and and monkeys and humanoid type things and, you know, spiral designs, a lot of
35:27
35 minutes, 27 seconds
different things um in these Nazka lines, in these geoglyphs.
35:32
35 minutes, 32 seconds
In the petroglyphs, these etchings on rocks uh in the Nazka eeka pulpa region,
35:39
35 minutes, 39 seconds
we often do see um images of humanoids with three fingers and three toes in ceramics in and pictographs and
35:47
35 minutes, 47 seconds
petroglyphs. And you know, in a in a culture that doesn't have writing, we can learn what was important to them
35:56
35 minutes, 56 seconds
by what they gave us images of, what's preserved based on what they were drawing and what they were designing.
36:03
36 minutes, 3 seconds
And we do have many images of of tridactyl humanoid uh figures both in p pictographs and in petroglyphs. In fact,
36:12
36 minutes, 12 seconds
in one of the locations, there's several locations, and that's a whole different story, but in one of the locations that
36:18
36 minutes, 18 seconds
Mario claims that he found these bodies, there's petroglyphs less than 100 yards away, um, ancient
36:27
36 minutes, 27 seconds
petetroglyphs showing humanoids with three fingers. And so, it's an interesting, you know, rabbit hole to go
36:35
36 minutes, 35 seconds
down to say, were they seeing these creatures? Is this something they did to themselves? Did they modify themselves just as they modified their heads? Did
36:44
36 minutes, 44 seconds
they modify their hands and feet? Um, and that was, you know, a theory that some people have had. But here's what's weird is that in in the feet and the
36:53
36 minutes, 53 seconds
hands, you'll notice if you see the pictures, they're very long and they all have an extra fangi. So, they all have an extra finger bone, like a knuckle, if
37:03
37 minutes, 3 seconds
you will. And that isn't something that they could do to themselves and and continue to use their hands or feet. Um,
37:10
37 minutes, 10 seconds
and that is something we see. And so I don't love that theory. I don't uh think that that's something they did to themselves while they were alive because
37:18
37 minutes, 18 seconds
of the extra felanges. It would indicate that that couldn't have been done. I'm glad that you brought up the art depicting humanoid figures with also
Chapter 19: Were the Nazca People Visited?
37:26
37 minutes, 26 seconds
three fingers and three toes because one thing, as much as many people would probably love to believe that the mummies are uh are extraterrestrials,
37:36
37 minutes, 36 seconds
even if they are not, let's say that they were determined to be definitively uh you know, human remains that were
37:43
37 minutes, 43 seconds
crafted somehow um and and and shaped in a certain way. The idea that it might be to emulate the image of visitors that
37:52
37 minutes, 52 seconds
they may have had which are also reflected in their art which are also reflected in the the geoglyphs that you mentioned is a compelling theory in and
37:59
37 minutes, 59 seconds
of itself which is also worth consideration isn't it? Well, I know a lot of people that prescribe to that theory, Rob. Um, that's actually quite a
38:07
38 minutes, 7 seconds
common one that's held uh among some of the researchers is that um let me take a
38:14
38 minutes, 14 seconds
step back. In in a lot of South American countries, and I lived in South America, I lived in Brazil for a few years. Um I
38:22
38 minutes, 22 seconds
think they look at, you know, UFOs a little differently than maybe we do in North America. maybe less skeptically or
38:30
38 minutes, 30 seconds
or and I don't mean to to cast a broad net over an entire continent. I don't know if that's fair, but in my personal
38:37
38 minutes, 37 seconds
experiences and in my interactions with a lot of the people I've met and dealt with, I think they're a lot more open-minded to the unknown and to the
38:46
38 minutes, 46 seconds
paranormal, uh, generally speaking, but also specifically about UAPs and UFOs.
38:53
38 minutes, 53 seconds
And so it's it's more common to talk about it or it it's less fringe and
39:00
39 minutes
maybe considered more frontier and forward thinking um to talk about these things. And so uh and it's enjoyable.
39:09
39 minutes, 9 seconds
It's fun to talk about um where I think a lot of people have that theory. I say, "Well, maybe they were visited. Um,
39:18
39 minutes, 18 seconds
maybe they wanted to look like things that were they saw and and were visiting them." And this has been a common theory
39:26
39 minutes, 26 seconds
with the Nazcal lions for decades. Um, you know, it's if you watch Ancient Aliens or you see any of these programs
39:34
39 minutes, 34 seconds
or uh read Chariot of the Gods, they, you know, the Nazco lines are very important in a lot of these theories.
39:42
39 minutes, 42 seconds
Um, once again, I'm I'm not a major prescriber to this, but I'm open-minded that why would they make these geoglyphs that some of them are a kilometer long?
39:53
39 minutes, 53 seconds
They're huge. And, you know, if you're if you're down on ground level, you can't determine what it is. It just
40:01
40 minutes, 1 second
looks like some rocks moved out of the way. Only when you get up high up onto a mountaintop or in a plane, helicopter,
40:09
40 minutes, 9 seconds
what have you, can you actually see what these represent? You can see it's a hummingbird, a mummy, a humanoid, etc.
40:17
40 minutes, 17 seconds
And so, one of those theories is, hey, they built these for visitors. Uh, they built these for, you know, UFOs to, and
40:25
40 minutes, 25 seconds
some of them look like runways. Um, I don't know. I I don't really have a theory about that. I'm not an anthropologist or an archaeologist and
40:34
40 minutes, 34 seconds
so um I just know what I've read and I've read a lot about it and what I've talked to people about and so that's a
40:41
40 minutes, 41 seconds
common theory in Peru and a common theory of different people that I've talked to that say well are these humans
40:50
40 minutes, 50 seconds
that are trying to mimic things that they've seen and that's one theory for some people that say oh these these things are built these are are are
40:59
40 minutes, 59 seconds
forgeries or some people say they're modern day. Some people say they're ancient.
41:04
41 minutes, 4 seconds
And that's one of the common debunking themes, if you will, is to say, well, these are fake. The counterargument is
41:11
41 minutes, 11 seconds
to say, well, no, these are ancient. And just like we see in pottery or just like we see in textiles, that these are representative of things that they saw.
41:21
41 minutes, 21 seconds
And that's a theory of of one of the gentlemen that I know down there says well um he thinks that some of the bodies
41:29
41 minutes, 29 seconds
that have been found are um dolls that were made to represent anciently made to
41:36
41 minutes, 36 seconds
represent things that they saw. So and and once again I don't know I'm just giving you some different theories that I've heard Rob. And
41:45
41 minutes, 45 seconds
I mean once again it's that's why we test them is you know if we test some of these things and we find out that you
41:53
41 minutes, 53 seconds
know the the carbon dating comes back as you know this is something that expired
41:59
41 minutes, 59 seconds
50 years ago and is you know a known mammal. Well, that's indicative of what
42:06
42 minutes, 6 seconds
they may be versus if it comes back as an unknown um something that we don't have in the
42:13
42 minutes, 13 seconds
DNA record. Well, then that's another, you know, maybe rabbit hole that we've got to go down, another um scientific,
42:23
42 minutes, 23 seconds
you know, road that we've got to pursue because until we know, we don't know.
Chapter 20: How Scientists Have Responded
42:28
42 minutes, 28 seconds
What's been the reception from the broader scientific community on these?
42:32
42 minutes, 32 seconds
Is it generally speaking considered to be something worth deep investigation or have a lot of people kind of written this off as, you know, a nothing burger
42:40
42 minutes, 40 seconds
hoax uh and and nothing really special to look at?
42:43
42 minutes, 43 seconds
Well, I've seen both. I mean, it's it's, you know, there's some people that vehemently say they're all hoaxes.
42:51
42 minutes, 51 seconds
They're not worth your time. They're, you know, X, Y, and Z. And the common theories that we talked about before.
42:59
42 minutes, 59 seconds
And there's other people that say, "No, if if these are something new, individual, and unique, these could be
43:07
43 minutes, 7 seconds
the the biggest find in in archaeological history." And I would agree if these things, if these bodies
43:15
43 minutes, 15 seconds
are a true biological, unaltered, unadulterated species that they are as
43:23
43 minutes, 23 seconds
we see them, then there is no archaeological or historical find since I don't know the dinosaurs that would be as as big as this. And it's a big if.
43:34
43 minutes, 34 seconds
It's a big if. We've got to do the additional research. And and part of the problem, Rob, is a lot of people say
43:42
43 minutes, 42 seconds
this to me. They say, "Well, these bodies have been around since 2016, 2017, they're you'll see them in the
43:49
43 minutes, 49 seconds
mainstream media that these bodies are not mainstream media, but in Peru, they started to show up and mainstream media
43:57
43 minutes, 57 seconds
just now 2024, 2025 is is picking up on these. The Daily Mail's written a bunch about them. Um, you can, you know, you
44:05
44 minutes, 5 seconds
can Google it, Reuters, etc." But if you do a Google search on it, one of the most one of the first or second things
44:13
44 minutes, 13 seconds
that's going to pop up are articles about this press conference uh in January of 2024 where Dr. Estrada and
44:22
44 minutes, 22 seconds
Dr. Avalos were showing these fake bodies. And so I think that did a lot of harm to the research to show these
44:30
44 minutes, 30 seconds
well-known admitted by the by the artists who made them dolls to say we did all the testing on them and their glue and chicken bones and etc. When Dr.
44:42
44 minutes, 42 seconds
Estrada has known about these these bodies, he's known about Maria. He's known about all these other bodies since
44:49
44 minutes, 49 seconds
2017. I have all the uh the criminal complaints against the grave robber.
44:55
44 minutes, 55 seconds
I've read through them all and he's mentioned in there uh as knowing about the bodies back in as early as 2017 and
45:03
45 minutes, 3 seconds
he knows about the different morphologies. And so to go in front of uh a press conference and international
45:11
45 minutes, 11 seconds
media and say, "Hey, these are the bodies. These are representative of all of the bodies. We've tested them and
45:18
45 minutes, 18 seconds
they're fake." is disingenuous and it's a disservice to to actual real research
45:25
45 minutes, 25 seconds
on the bodies. And keep in mind to to do research on you know ancient artifacts
Chapter 21: The Fight to Conduct Further Testing
45:33
45 minutes, 33 seconds
and especially you know remains uh biological remains you need permission from the Ministry of Culture in Peru.
45:42
45 minutes, 42 seconds
And that's why we went to Congress was to talk to the the the Congressional Commission on Culture to say, "We want to do this the right way.
45:52
45 minutes, 52 seconds
We want to do it ethically and scientifically, and we're asking permission to be able to move them to a location where we can a a university or
46:01
46 minutes, 1 second
other lab where we can get testing done to determine what these are. And keep in
46:07
46 minutes, 7 seconds
mind the since these bodies were found in 2016, there's been 21 different ministries ministers of culture, Rob. So
46:17
46 minutes, 17 seconds
in we're talking in nine years they've had this is a cabinet level position in Peru and they've had 21 different you
46:25
46 minutes, 25 seconds
know in the United States we'd maybe have two or three in that time of period and they've had 21 and there's a lot of turnover there's a lot of you know lack
46:33
46 minutes, 33 seconds
of resources and there are different organizations groups doctors that have come to us uh
46:40
46 minutes, 40 seconds
that have been communicated to me that have said we're happy to chip in we're happy to help pay for this whatever ever resources you need, uh, testing
46:49
46 minutes, 49 seconds
modalities, we're happy to help because until we find out what these are, it's hard to determine what the next step is.
46:58
46 minutes, 58 seconds
And I I think if we do the testing and and we can do that in simple ways, we can take uh different samples from long
47:07
47 minutes, 7 seconds
bones from the tooth uh from a a tooth of the different specimens. Um we also
47:13
47 minutes, 13 seconds
have best better um imaging modalities uh in the United States and in Europe than are readily available in Peru. Peru
47:21
47 minutes, 21 seconds
does have some DNA testing but uh ancient DNA testing in the manner that has been suggested to me uh would I know
47:30
47 minutes, 30 seconds
a lot of it's been done in US labs historically they've taken uh genetic material from Machu Picchu just even in
47:38
47 minutes, 38 seconds
2023 uh UC Santa Cruz did a lot of great work with the Max Planck Institute and
47:44
47 minutes, 44 seconds
Yale University to test different um human remains that they found around Machu Picchu. to to determine genetically where they they came from.
47:55
47 minutes, 55 seconds
Uh were they from Incas from that region or were they from other places? And so what we'd like to do is use a lab with
48:04
48 minutes, 4 seconds
the testing modalities, the experts and expertise to be able to give us all the
48:10
48 minutes, 10 seconds
right answers. And that's uh above my pay scale. I'm uh involved to help out
48:18
48 minutes, 18 seconds
any way I can. uh you know I'm obviously not a scientist or a DNA expert but uh we've been working with people
48:26
48 minutes, 26 seconds
who are and so if if we're granted permission and to do this then I think
48:33
48 minutes, 33 seconds
we can get answers pretty quickly and and pretty actually quickly easily and cheaply we just have to move different body parts or I shouldn't say body parts
48:42
48 minutes, 42 seconds
I should say um you know tissue or genetic specimens it can be small things Um but we have to worry about the
48:51
48 minutes, 51 seconds
collection methods. We have to worry about the chain of custody and um you know contamination as well. The three
48:58
48 minutes, 58 seconds
C's as I say um we have to look at them to see if or to make sure it's done right. And so that's why experts have to
49:05
49 minutes, 5 seconds
come in um to to do the testing but from the very beginning. So whether it's moving a body itself for bodies or if
49:14
49 minutes, 14 seconds
it's just using tissue samples um to different universities or labs then we can start getting answers and we can say
49:21
49 minutes, 21 seconds
hey it's settled they're X and we don't need any more testing because we know or they're Y and these are going to require
49:30
49 minutes, 30 seconds
a lot more testing because these are new unique finds. By your estimation, is this something that is um going to
Chapter 22: Could Definitive Answers Be Coming?
49:37
49 minutes, 37 seconds
happen in the near future so that we can get definitive answers about these?
49:41
49 minutes, 41 seconds
I I'm hopeful. I'm optimistic. I I wouldn't be involved if I wasn't optimistic that we couldn't get an
49:48
49 minutes, 48 seconds
answer for this. And and you know that's my goal is to get an answer whatever it
49:54
49 minutes, 54 seconds
may be is you know as as a someone who's helped investigate this and and helped
50:01
50 minutes, 1 second
with the forensic team from the US that's come down to study them. That's our only goal is to get answers to to help the Peruvian people determine what
50:09
50 minutes, 9 seconds
they are and then they can determine the next step to what to do with them. And we've offered our services and you know
50:17
50 minutes, 17 seconds
once again get my services that you know my fathers and other doctors to come down free of charge. We're we're not
50:25
50 minutes, 25 seconds
getting paid for this to go down and to help out to help solve this mystery.
50:30
50 minutes, 30 seconds
It's, you know, for me and and for my dad, it's kind of become a little bit of a labor of love that we want to help the
50:38
50 minutes, 38 seconds
uh the investigators and and ultimately the the people of Peru to know what these are because we're very much
50:46
50 minutes, 46 seconds
against graverobing and trafficking of these bodies. And because I know a lot of people have said this to me, they
50:53
50 minutes, 53 seconds
said, "Josh, just grab a tooth, grab a bone, do something, and just uh take it to a lab." And I know that's been done
51:01
51 minutes, 1 second
and there's issues with the the three C's we talked about a minute ago, but there's also major ethical concerns and
51:09
51 minutes, 9 seconds
major there's treaties between Peru and the US about pre-Colombian artifacts.
51:14
51 minutes, 14 seconds
There's also international and federal law. And as m no matter how much we want to solve this and how much we want to get answers, we're not going to take any
51:22
51 minutes, 22 seconds
shortcuts and we're not going to do anything illegal or unethical or inappropriate uh scientifically or or legally to get answers. Um, so for us,
51:32
51 minutes, 32 seconds
that's why we've been trying to go through Congress and and we're hopeful that in the very near future, there's going to be another congressional
51:41
51 minutes, 41 seconds
hearing where once again, um, I testified, my father testified, uh, some of the Peruvian docs and and also some
51:49
51 minutes, 49 seconds
of the the Mexican researchers and one of the Mexican docs testified that these are worthy of of additional study. And
51:57
51 minutes, 57 seconds
we and we believe that no matter what they are, if and to me whether these are a unique uh find, you know, a platypus
52:07
52 minutes, 7 seconds
or a new dinosaur or whatever, you know, as an analogy, or if some of these are hoaxes or or what have you, that the
52:16
52 minutes, 16 seconds
answers are important and it's it's worthy of additional study.
52:20
52 minutes, 20 seconds
Here's a big question to maybe cap off this uh this podcast. If we could put our speculation hats on for just a
Chapter 23: What If the Bodies Are Extraterrestrial?
52:27
52 minutes, 27 seconds
moment. Um, if proven to be authentic extraterrestrial beings, what would be the implications broadly speaking for
52:36
52 minutes, 36 seconds
humanity? Like this would change everything, wouldn't it?
52:38
52 minutes, 38 seconds
It would. It would. I mean, you know, it's I I'm going to play along, Rob. I I don't look at this through, like I said,
52:48
52 minutes, 48 seconds
through the extraterrestrial lens, but I know a lot of people do. I know a lot of people have that thought because I I I
52:55
52 minutes, 55 seconds
don't know. It's legends, it's myths, it's stories of um abductions and and things that people have told um for for
53:05
53 minutes, 5 seconds
decades and and probably much longer than that that these um are
53:11
53 minutes, 11 seconds
visibly uh similar to what has been described by a lot of people. And so
53:18
53 minutes, 18 seconds
putting on the speculation hat, if these things are determined to be extraterrestrial, I I think it would be
53:26
53 minutes, 26 seconds
the most important find in human history. How do how would we determine that? Because their DNA is going to be different.
53:33
53 minutes, 33 seconds
There's I don't know. It's going to be a lot of people say fringe or or frontier science, but it takes people
53:42
53 minutes, 42 seconds
like the investigators that are working on that to make these discoveries. You know, when dinosaurs were first being found, it was, oh, they're, you know,
53:52
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there's a prosaic explanation until we started finding more and we realized that these were in fact, you know, ancient living,
54:01
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you know, dinosaurs that once lived on Earth. And then we start finding more and more and more. And this may be the
54:08
54 minutes, 8 seconds
case here. I don't know. But it is uh an evolving and emerging uh space that
54:16
54 minutes, 16 seconds
we're willing to look at, you know, spending our own time and and own money to determine what these are to to help
54:24
54 minutes, 24 seconds
help the Peruvians and the and the Mexican teams that have been working on this. And I know a lot of people hope they are. And it would be phenomenal if
54:33
54 minutes, 33 seconds
it was. Um, but that is going to be that would be years in the making, I think, Rob, to determine that they were
54:40
54 minutes, 40 seconds
extraterrestrial. I don't know how we would determine that. Um, I think we could determine, you know, there's uh scientists that are going to come up
54:49
54 minutes, 49 seconds
with the new and and clever ideas to say, hey, these do not appear to be carbon life forms that started on Earth.
54:56
54 minutes, 56 seconds
I don't know. I this is wild speculation for me. And um and I'm willing to play along because I I know a lot of the the people that have wanted to talk to me
55:05
55 minutes, 5 seconds
about this are enthusiasts in um you know extraterrestrial or or the
55:11
55 minutes, 11 seconds
paranormal aspect of this. And and my perspective and I always say this is I think we're going to find something that
55:19
55 minutes, 19 seconds
makes sense. We're going to find uh a a real prosaic explanation whatever it is. And
55:27
55 minutes, 27 seconds
maybe that explanation is it's a platypus. It's a brand new thing that we haven't seen before. It's a dinosaur. It's a real fossil. It's something new.
55:36
55 minutes, 36 seconds
These are things that lived with us. And and that's another common theorist.
55:40
55 minutes, 40 seconds
These are like Dennisovvens or uh a Neanderl or a different uh branch of
55:47
55 minutes, 47 seconds
human evolution. That's another common theory. And I don't know. I don't know.
55:52
55 minutes, 52 seconds
But whatever we determine they are, I I think it's going to expand what we know
55:59
55 minutes, 59 seconds
hopefully about um the people from that time. Um and you know also learn for the
56:07
56 minutes, 7 seconds
next thing that that we find the next archaeological discovery that's in Peru or mummy or holy site.
56:16
56 minutes, 16 seconds
So it's it's important to learn from this uh whatever the answer may be.
Chapter 24: Public Interest, Debunking and Misinformation
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56 minutes, 22 seconds
How important is public interest in getting answers to what these are? I I think we're reaching new levels now of of public interest just in the UAP
56:31
56 minutes, 31 seconds
discussion with the congressional hearings that we're having having on that side and the military whistleblowers who are coming forward and talking about their experiences. So
56:38
56 minutes, 38 seconds
it's being spoken about more and more openly in society. Is that instrumental in moving forward on this path of of investigating these mummies?
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56 minutes, 48 seconds
You know, I think it is. I mean, you take a look at it and, you know, even the example of how, you know, the the
56:56
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doctors that I've been working with got involved is it was something I saw on social media that piqued my interest.
57:03
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And so hopefully the more people that know about it, the more people that get good information, not information from
57:11
57 minutes, 11 seconds
people that are intentionally trying to give disinformation or misinformation.
57:16
57 minutes, 16 seconds
And I know there's a lot of it and um I even talked about that in front of the Peruvian Congress that it's it's
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disingenuous to say that these are dolls or these are X, Y, and Z when you're using
57:33
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uh examples that are completely different than what we've been studying.
57:37
57 minutes, 37 seconds
When they know full well about the other bodies, they and they know where they are. Uh they can examine them and
57:45
57 minutes, 45 seconds
they've known about them for nearly a decade. And then they're showing dolls that they know are dolls. And that's what if you do a Google search, that's
57:53
57 minutes, 53 seconds
what you're going to find is you're going to find debunked hoax, hoax, hoax. you know, forensic anthropologist from Peru says
58:01
58 minutes, 1 second
there are dolls. And yes, the ones he were showing were dolls, but thank goodness for people like Haime Mosan who
58:09
58 minutes, 9 seconds
is out there. And like I said, a lot of people say it's it's fringe, but it takes people that are willing to, you
58:18
58 minutes, 18 seconds
know, go out and explore and to go out and investigate these things to make those discoveries. to say everything's
58:26
58 minutes, 26 seconds
been found and everything's solved. It just that's not accurate. There are going to be new things out there. And whether these are or not, that remains
58:33
58 minutes, 33 seconds
to be seen. But I know that we're finding new species of animals, even large mammals and and bugs and fish
58:42
58 minutes, 42 seconds
every year. We're discovering new things. And if these are a new true archaeological anthropological
58:49
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discovery, then it certainly needs to be studied. and it can make it into the the
58:56
58 minutes, 56 seconds
next textbook. Whatever these are, it's a it's it's a forensic mystery that needs to be resolved and hopefully will
59:03
59 minutes, 3 seconds
be a textbook case to help us in in in future examples of things that are
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found. It will be instructive or um you know, it'll educate us a little bit on what to look for. You mentioned
Chapter 25: Is Information Being Suppressed?
59:17
59 minutes, 17 seconds
navigating between good info and disinfo and a Google search will provide you with first all of the the articles
59:24
59 minutes, 24 seconds
debunking claims. In your view, is there a concerted effort to suppress information about this or like why why would all of the debunked stuff surface
59:32
59 minutes, 32 seconds
to the top when somebody is researching this?
59:34
59 minutes, 34 seconds
Well, you'll have to ask the guys in in, you know, Palo Alto about that at Google to see what their algorithm is. I I
59:42
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don't know. Um, I will tell you there's, you know, some places you can find some good information. Uh, tridactyls.org
59:49
59 minutes, 49 seconds
is a new site that was started by some of the researchers just recently. Um,
59:56
59 minutes, 56 seconds
and it's got a lot of images and uh, different scans of the bodies. It's a great resource. It's still being um,
1:00:04
1 hour, 4 seconds
built and added on to, and I'm sure it'll keep growing. Um, I've blogged about it on on my website, mc mcdowfirm.com
1:00:13
1 hour, 13 seconds
and a lot of it is it's my law firm website and so I'm talking about DUIs.
1:00:18
1 hour, 18 seconds
I'm a criminal defense attorney. So, I'm talking about DUIs and and criminal defense and self-defense and all sorts of things, but you can click on a tab to
1:00:26
1 hour, 26 seconds
read about the Nazka mummies because I I like to give information from my point of view because I've been there. I've seen it. I've done the interviews with
1:00:35
1 hour, 35 seconds
the people I've interviewed. Uh, so many of the people involved in this, the early docks, Haime Mosan, Mario himself,
1:00:44
1 hour, 44 seconds
I was able to interview, the man who who says he found the bodies. And um, I've learned a lot. I've been there. I've
1:00:51
1 hour, 51 seconds
seen it. I've seen the testing done live. And so I try to give it from my perspective where it's open, honest, and
1:00:58
1 hour, 58 seconds
and uh, just from my point of view to say, "Hey, I don't have any I'm not making money on this. I'm not uh
1:01:06
1 hour, 1 minute, 6 seconds
monetizing this in any way, shape, or form. I'm trying to tell the story that I I think is important and interesting, and a lot of people find it, too. If you
1:01:14
1 hour, 1 minute, 14 seconds
don't, you can read about lie detector tests and and DUIs on my website, too.
1:01:19
1 hour, 1 minute, 19 seconds
But, um, it's something I just it's kind of fun for me. So, I I do think it's important that more people talk about it and try to get good information out
1:01:27
1 hour, 1 minute, 27 seconds
there. Uh, so I've been happy to do podcasts and I've done a few where um I'm happy to talk about them. And now
Chapter 26: Why the Mystery Deserves More Attention
1:01:35
1 hour, 1 minute, 35 seconds
most of the time in fairness, Rob, it's, you know, UFO or paranormal podcasts that are interested in this, but I I
1:01:44
1 hour, 1 minute, 44 seconds
hope in the future that more, and I hate the word, but more mainstream uh type podcasts also take interest as well
1:01:53
1 hour, 1 minute, 53 seconds
because it's a great story. No matter what the findings are, no matter what the resolution is, whether it's the
1:01:59
1 hour, 1 minute, 59 seconds
biggest find in in in human history or it is, you know, one of the most well orchestrated and clever hoaxes. I mean,
1:02:08
1 hour, 2 minutes, 8 seconds
those are the two far ends of the spectrum. I think that is the continuous argument over what these are. no matter what they are. The story is incredible
1:02:16
1 hour, 2 minutes, 16 seconds
and is the more research I've done, the the more I found out. It's it's amazing
1:02:23
1 hour, 2 minutes, 23 seconds
the things that have happened and are continuing to happen. Uh, even the phone calls I've had this week that are brand
1:02:31
1 hour, 2 minutes, 31 seconds
new information and brand new things that are happening are just fascinating to me and I hope to talk about them soon
1:02:39
1 hour, 2 minutes, 39 seconds
and and and hope to share some of the things that that we've been learning.
1:02:43
1 hour, 2 minutes, 43 seconds
And there's new bodies that have uh shown up even in the last 6 months that that I've seen that are strange that are
1:02:52
1 hour, 2 minutes, 52 seconds
unlike any of the other bodies that you've seen photographs of online that have different morphologies
1:02:59
1 hour, 2 minutes, 59 seconds
um that I've only seen photos of. I haven't seen in person yet, but I'm excited to uh to take a look at them to see what these are.
1:03:06
1 hour, 3 minutes, 6 seconds
Well, I can tell you this has been a fascinating thing to start learning about. I'm very happy to have spoken to you about it. I think uh anybody who is
Chapter 27: Final Thoughts
1:03:14
1 hour, 3 minutes, 14 seconds
um interested in learning more, I will provide links to the resources that you mentioned in the comments for this video. And to anybody watching, please leave your thoughts in the comments. I'm
1:03:23
1 hour, 3 minutes, 23 seconds
really interested to know what everybody thinks about this. Uh because as as we mentioned, it's it's a somewhat controversial thing. Everybody's got
1:03:30
1 hour, 3 minutes, 30 seconds
their opinions about it. But ultimately, I hope that we one day get definitive answers about what these are, where they come from, and until then, uh, we we
1:03:39
1 hour, 3 minutes, 39 seconds
should just keep talking about it and and and share the information that we have. So, thank you so much, Josh. Um, hope to speak to you again, and, uh, thank you for your time today.
1:03:47
1 hour, 3 minutes, 47 seconds
Anytime, Rob. Happy to be here. Great. Take care, everybody. See you.